So then you’re not really adding anything to the conversation.

A philosophical zombie still has 'feelings' and 'cares' in the sense that you can see with your own eyes: they can express gestures of gratitude, they avoid pain, sit down and listen to your problems, they can still love you, etc.;

I think if you really reflect about what you can know (directly from experience), you will find that the warmth or frigidity of other people is a reflection of your pyschological state of mind. For example, imagine you sincerely believed that solipsism was false, wouldn't that bring some wanted warmth into experience for you? even though nothing changed about reality other than your state of mind, you would now experience a warmer kind of coexistence with other people. Now, imagine you believed it is true (or maybe that it is even indeterminate), then you lose that warmth--see how this is not a reflection of the truthity of the actual position of solipsism? It is a depiction of your state of mind. If you dive into yourself, then you can fix the issue without getting an answer to solipsism. — Bob Ross

A philosophical zombie by definition has no feelings and doesn’t care so it wouldn’t matter what gestures, words, etc they do because you know it’s not true. It’s like a robot doing it for you so your argument is wrong.

I know how I feel doesn’t affect the truth of solipsism, but that’s beside the point. The fact you think there is no difference means that you really don’t get it. I’ve looked into myself but there isn’t fixing it. If solipsism ended up being true then it wouldn’t matter what other people did, it would be cold because you know their gestures and words mean nothing. They’re not from someone, they don’t have any feelings.

Like…you’re kidding yourself if you think your argument holds weight. Of course there is a world of difference when you’re interacting with a human who has feelings and emotions (if anything that argument is why animals have rights now because people thought they were just mindless beasts before). Even just looking at history you can see how people treat those they view as less than or even demoting them below human status. Black people had it happen not long ago.

So no, and I encourage you to rethink your points again.

Failure of empathy is another false argument against it. You’re attacking their character when their character has nothing to do with it. There are better counter arguments that don’t develop to attacking the person.

Can one be arrogant enough to believe he is the sole source and author of all great music, all architectural marvels and technological achievements, the author of all our epistemology and the content found in all youtube videos.
And if he does believe that...why getting in the trouble to debate it with him self in a public forum? — Nickolasgaspar

This is a false argument against it, it has nothing to do with being arrogant.

it actually is a good objection. If it’s a dream the car can’t hurt you and you could just make the car not or stop it yourself. I’ve been shot, stabbed, hit by a car, etc in a dream and it didn’t hurt.

But since you act and behave as though it will hurt and get out of the way anyway (like in real life) your “dream” argument is moot. Like I said, the solipsist still models and behaves as though everything is real and exists so they’re just being argumentative for it’s own sake.

Never mind your definition of solipsism being you are the author and shaper is wrong.

Solipsism, depending, is either skepticism or denial of anything else. It says nothing about being the author or creator of that reality. I don’t find the points in the wiki convincing. Not only can you not be sure you exist but also you can’t be sure you have a mind.

But let’s grant it that, just because you know that for certain doesn’t mean everything else is just a product of your mind, hallucination, etc. At MOST you can conclude it’s uncertain. Denial would imply knowledge you cannot access.

I was just arguing something similar here against this: https://www.quora.com/Is-epistemological-solipsism-a-contradiction-logic-solipsism-philosophy/answer/David-Dixon-434

In fact even as a form of skepticism it doesn’t go far enough. True skepticism would be doubting all concepts of a self, consciousness, mind, etc, see how far that gets you.

And let’s be honest, even if someone was one they don’t behave as though it’s true. They’ll still avoid traffic, still won’t murder, etc. They’ll still behave as though it’s all real so then you’d have to ask what was the point of asking to begin with.

That’s not what solipsism says, not even close.

I guess the issue comes in where even if you allege something as certain that is still just an assumption. Unless you have total omniscience then you don’t have true certainty.

So when I think back to that Quora post (alleged one that allegedly proves it but I’m not sure now), I’m realizing either they were wrong or I was wrong (far more likely I was wrong) because the very nature of solipsism prevents you from being able to prove it one way or another, either right or wrong.

Though part of me wonders how language would affect omniscience.

My point would only be that this: I Am!, is an action, a process; who we define ourselves to be, say, against the crowd, is not given to us as an inherent fact. People believe they have "thoughts", and those are precious gems that come from who they are, their identity as a singular person, something special from inside only them, when most of the time they are platitudes or regurgitation--though sometimes what is common is most true (it all depends). As Heidegger says: what is most thought-provoking is that we are not yet thinking. — Antony Nickles

So we are products of our environment. That's not really news, it's been a thing in psychology for a while.

I think I was trying to say the same thing. What I meant was that, yes, we have singular experiences but there is nothing that ensures our individuality (nothing taking the place of the metaphysical "mind"). — Antony Nickles

There is some amount of evidence against this. Who we are essentially comes down to genes, environment, and culture. Though somethings seem more or less innate to being human like how cultures around the world have similar structures but also key differences. Also how murder is generally looked down upon. There is plenty that ensures our individuality. Even the influences around us aren't a total guarantee of how we'll turn out.

Yeah I figured that a bit ago, dude just seems like a troll.

Pretty sure roads and stuff are maintained through state funds. Also private companies suck at maintaining infrastructure, just look what happen in Europe when the railways were privatized, it was a disaster.

You realize everything you do is only possible because of taxes right? Roads, infrastructure, etc. A lot of what keeps this society running and your ability to post on the internet is due to taxes.

People who call taxation theft are IMO idiots who don't understand how societies function.

Well it's not working. It's also kind patently clear that some parts of this are just flat out wrong or making leaps that don't really track, like why we allegedly need certainty or that there are no "Facts" about us.

The lack of replies would also lead me to believe no one really finds value in the OP so there's nothing to really learn.

Like, Cavell is just flat out wrong in is quote.

In fact the only reason I replied was because if the title and because you posted on my thread before. Other than that there is nothing here but questionable leaps in logic.

Though it’s getting better each day as I see the more nonsense arguments are for it:

https://www.quora.com/Is-solipsism-unfalsifiable-and-therefore-should-be-dismissed/answer/Johans-Work

Like this one claiming it is falsifiable, and then proceeding to show they have no idea what falsifiable even means.

Yes it exists as an idea and yea it has effects if you choose to act as though it is true but that’s not being falsifiable. Falsifiable means we are able to test it and prove it wrong (or right) and we can’t. There is simply no way to test it or prove it which is why it’s an eternal question. It’s like trying to prove a simulation from within a simulation.

This is the math one:

http://bc.upjp2.edu.pl/Content/5621/35_PDFsam_Całość%20ze%20znakiem%20wodnym3.pdf

But if philosophical zombies were real then it would affect how I feel and treat people. Since they don’t have feelings or care about me then I would be colder, it would also leave me hugely depressed.

Already explained how rights mean nothing without a legal and governmental body to recognize and give them, and a society.

At this point it’s just willful ignorance

There are no such rights.

I just told you property has no meaning without a legal system and the recognition it brings. In fact that’s literally how it came about.

I think you’re just willfully stupid at this point, pretty much everyone is saying something similar to what I am.

This is math and science not philosophy. It talks about the energy of a given object of mass, only an idiot would take that to mean everything is energy.

There would be no rights if the government fell. It doesn't matter what you say rights only exist because of society and government. Property only has meaning under a legal body that recognizes and enforces it.

You can't get around it.

Because rights only exist in the context of a wider society and governmental system. You have no power to give that, but people as a collective do.

The idea that some men must work for governments in order for rights to be meaningful and useful is nonsense. I can confer a right to you and defend it just as any king or official can. — NOS4A2

No you can't.

I disagree. I think we do have a real version of ourselves, possibly by default. We also have an individual consciousness so long as you have a working brain, and thoughts and meaning.

In a sense everyone is special, I can't understand or relate to the majority of other people due to being on the spectrum. Yet even my own experience of being on the spectrum is different from others like me who are on the spectrum.

I'd also disagree on "There is no fact about you which constitutes your actions", this is obviously false. Just to use my case for example, being like this definitely constitutes my actions. Cavell was just wrong.

(Of course we can have individual experiences outside of language--like seeing a sunset that leaves us speechless--but those instances don't structure our relation to ourselves and others.) — Antony Nickles

Frankly, you don't know that to be the case.

Is that how you protect someone’s right to life, by begging the government to restrict our rights?

Or in other cases, abortion control, the right to life via not being chopped up in a womb and sucked out with a vacuum. All this talk of protecting life suddenly falls on deaf ears when this subject comes up. I don’t believe any of it.

What kind of weapon would you use to protect your children, should the need ever arise? Ballots and petitions? Beg a politician? — NOS4A2

Right's only have any meaningful use in the context of a government and legal system with enforcement methods. What you argue for, ironically, is only made possible by the thing you're against. Property rights have no meaning without a government to recognize it. Sure you can claim it's yours but unless you plan to defend it 24/7 there is nothing stopping someone from saying it's theirs and booting you off.

I do think there has to be stronger controls for gun ownership though. Having held and fired a gun before (at a range) I find it incomprehensible that folks wouldn't treat these things with more gravity than we currently do.

Likewise, let’s say they are actually right (that there are philosophical zombies, with no minds, no consciousness, and let’s say no wills of their own): does that change your experience of them? No. Are you justified in doing abhorrent things to them now that you know? No. Are you alone?. NO: you still interact with them, can talk to them, they can relate to you, they can love you, you can love them—and why would it matter that you are able to think of your own accord while they cannot? — Bob Ross

I would push back and say that if they were philosophical zombies then yes that would change my experience of them.

I'm fine more and more with the idea that solipsism is in provable/disprovable etc. I just struggle when I see papers like the ones I linked so far making me doubt if I am wrong. Again I'm pretty doubtful about my interpretation of the math one but I'm not versed in math to check what he's saying. The vernon press one I'm not touching either, though my brain keeps obsessing over bits and lines in that text and it's really hard for me to reject the COMPULSION to open old wounds again. It's also making me think that he proved it true as well.

I understand what people mean by doing the work when it comes to philosophical inquiry, but that doesn't work for everyone and definitely not for me. Not only can I not read those papers (TBH I'm surprised I managed that much from the math one) but I don't get the arguments they use. It's why I need other people to help because they get it, I'm (to be blunt) not smart enough to.

It's why I need their help with the papers so I can put it all behind me.

Though I will say Seneca was right, we do suffer more in imagination than reality.

Path number 2 has been pretty helpful in overcoming this. I'm also pretty sure that I have an obsession with it at the moment, same with anything else. IT's based on the thought that if I am rejecting it then I am denying truth because it hurts me, though I'm seeing that is just a trick my brain does.

So you're saying I got the definition of axiom confused here?

There is one that I grazed that my brain keeps trying to pull me back to:

https://vernonpress.com/file/7502/e19b0d05052691e5d1fa06f3a2939a5f/1543562412.pdf

But so far I'm able to resist the urges and what they say to me. Though that is why I ask other people to look at this stuff in my stead because I know what happens if I try to, and I'm hoping someone could take a look at the above. I do appreciate people doing this for me though, I just more or less know how my brain works.

I know that people ask me to do the work when it comes to philosophy but when I try reading stuff I get sucked in and just assume that the person who wrote is right and that this is new data entering my brain thus rendering old data obsolete. I have to remind myself philosophy isn't science, different metrics and methods.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-arguments-against-solipsism/answer/Klaus-Kellerwessel

Actually going through some answers is helping me see how ridiculous it is. Especially stuff like this. Stuff I perceive is a part of me? Last I checked my pillow wasn’t part of me, despite my strongest wishes.

It's not me. Somehow despite all of this I still truly believe that other people exist, have other minds, etc.

Though the accusations of being arrogant or rude aren't points to use against someone with solipsism. At it's heart is the real issue that we cannot be truly certain, and I can empathize with that fear at first hit.

To call people like that ignorant, callous, narcissists, rude, etc, is to me just being foolish.

Solipsism doesn't have to be a playground where you can do whatever you want (though I think the justifications some use to argue for that are just nonsense and it gets to a point where they're just clutching at straws to prop it up).

We cannot "get out of our own heads" so to speak, so that is why no one can prove solipsism or disprove it.

That said despite what I've read in the links and all that I'm still firmly committed to other people existing, outside world, etc. But it's challenging to keep that faith.

I know people told me to stop looking but I couldn’t help it ( I know I know) and came across this:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-chief-applications-of-philosophical-solipsism/answer/David-Moore-408

Though I think I am doing better since this doesn’t seem like a good answer. There are no applications to it. It’s a dead end. The assertion is the conclusion .

Though I disagree with his use of the word verify in the answer since you can’t verify it. I do agree with him that it is useless though since…well you can’t do anything with it. At least other philosophies have ACTUAL applications to them, namely ethics.

But what do y’all think of it?

Well what I think he means is that every axiom you make as a non solipsist can apply to a solipsist. And if the premises are solipsistically true then the conclusion is solipsistically true. So that would mean every axiom would lead to solipsism.

Yet I’m very doubtful about my interpretation of this as it doesn’t seem to match other areas in his work.

It's not so much the math as it is these things in the link:

2. More generally, there can be no deductive refutation of this solipsism
employing only premises a committed solipsist would accept: all logically
correct derivations from solipsistically true premises lead to conclusions
that are solipsistically true as well. Any route to a successful refutation of
solipsism must travel via nondeductive inferential paths.

4. Every solipsistic theory that is strict – as defined below – and axiomatic
is the close translational analogue of an axiomatic nonsolipsistic theory. If
the solipsist can axiomatize her nonsolipsistic theories, she can do the same
with their solipsistic correlates.

Any axiomatic theory and set of axioms for that theory in the non‑
solipsistic language can be carried over into the solipsistic language
as a theory with corresponding axioms, provided that the latter
theory is strict. Importantly, it is easy to argue – see the reply to
the third interpretation of the Private Language Argument – that
basic mathematical theories are all strict. Hence, a solipsist can
avail herself of, say, Peano/Dedekind Arithmetic together with its
familiar set of axioms.

These three parts of the link which when read together sounds to me like all paths lead to solipsism, though I'm very doubtful about my interpretation.

I just needed help understanding if he's saying what I think he's saying, if he's not then I can dump all this behind me and let it go. But I'm asking all over and haven't been able to find someone who either can or will do it.

What I’m telling you is, yes, what leads to the conclusion of solipsism is true about our human condition. But having certainty that others exist, knowing that, is not the only consequence of the truth of the skepticism that leads to solipsism, as knowledge of the other and the world is not our only connection. — Antony Nickles

What I meant is that do you mean we can’t really be certain of anything or that solipsism is true? I’m struggling to figure out what you mean.

A therapist is not going to help you with a philosophical problem like solipsism, though they can help with reasons for turning our human condition of being separate from others into an intellectual problem where we think we are lacking some knowledge. I would suggest both, especially given that you will come back to it again and again, but I t doesn't sound like you are ready to work on the philosophy yet. I ask that you not post here again unless you are serious, as you must realize you've wasted the time of earnest people actually trying to do philosophy here. If you continue in this vein, I will ask that you be banned until you can convince the admins of your sincerity in wanting to do the work. Good luck. — Antony Nickles

I've tried to do that work but I just can't. I have to ask people to help me out because philosophy has always been something daunting to me that I can't seem to get around. I try to do the work but I guess, to put it bluntly, I'm not smart enough to get it.

I apologize for that. I have no earthly idea what it means by the math so I can't really comment. I just read the parts with the text but it didn't make much sense.

Do I just message them or something like that?

What I’m telling you is, yes, what leads to the conclusion of solipsism is true about our human condition. But having certainty that others exist, knowing that, is not the only consequence of the truth of the skepticism that leads to solipsism, as knowledge of the other and the world is not our only connection. — Antony Nickles

I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly.

And you will not forget about this because your isolation and doubt and disconnection are based on something true. The danger of philosophy is why Socrates was killed, why Descartes’ Meditations was not taught to young adults, and why Wittgenstein kept telling people to give up on philosophy after his conclusions in the Tractatus. It is too late for you , however, so I would use your mind to overcome your mind. — Antony Nickles

That doesn't help much but I think I can forget about it as long as I stop feeding it and focus on other stuff, or at least see a therapist about it. Some comments are right, this is an obsession and I have a tendency to obsesses a lot over stuff (I think that comes with being on the spectrum).

My "work" doesn't amount to much as a lot of philosophy just goes over my head with the arguments and writings. It's why when read that I couldn't really make much sense of it. I don't know if it's the way philosophers write or stuff like that but I often need others to explain it for me because I just can't...I've tried but it doesn't click. It's why I post on here.

I just want to know if the links I give prove it or not (and I'm REALLY hoping they don't) and if they don't, truly don't then I'm done with it. No more googling, no more, just...no. I want to be happy and live the rest of my days in peace and not stressing over this stuff.

That's why I left the math link and the one from Vernon Press. And I know it's a huge ask but it's why I often post this stuff for others to take a look because I don't really get it and knowing how my mind works it would just do more harm than good.

But I greatly appreciate the help with this and the links. It means more than you can know.

I just REALLY need help with that one, and then after that I can just forget about it. Throw it all away and never look back.

I'm tired of waking up everyday feeling like this and having these thoughts. I just want to be happy.

Please, I want nothing more in my life than to just forget everything I saw about solipsism and to just be happy.

It’s why I need help with the math link, after that I can let it all go and just move on with my life never having to think about it again.

That wasn’t me that was a Quora user and I’ll admit even I could see that his argument was literally nothing more than just a string of assertions that he can’t prove.

I’m wondering what you think of the math one.

I'm convinced now, you didn't come to be a solipsist by introspection, it's something else. I'm called a solipsist because I attack the concepts of truth and reality, I emphasise the importance of the perception of the individual. And they talk about reality, truth, and logic and scoff at me for daring to think these concepts unimportant. You're a solipsist who prizes truth above all else, who proclaims things "objectively true", who prides himself on thinking in a way best suited to arriving at truth, and who detests ways of thinking that lead to inaccuracies. That is the exact opposite of solipsism, this is someone who has absolute faith in the foundations of reality and embraces and believes in a standard set of epistemological tools.

No offence, but I think others have hit this on the head, this is the result of some obsession of yours, it is not a logically consistent system of thought. I see a complete disconnect between how you think and what you value, and how that can conclude in solipsism. The only thing I can think of is that for some reason, you've been mesmerised by the idea and you're stuck. I realise that you won't accept that answer and that it's not an answer appropriate to a debate, but it's what I think all the same. — Judaka

I’m not a solipsist otherwise I wouldn’t be talking to other people and asking for their advice. I want to move past it but I want to make sure I’m not missing anything that could be used against me. I want to be happy but so far trying to ignore this, forget about it, or argue against it hasn’t worked out. I wish it did so I can just move on with my life. I want to be happy.

I know I’m stuck and I don’t know how to get unstuck. I’m also scared by the thought that it might be true and just imagining myself acting like it’s not true while knowing it is.

I'm not interested in going through a 50-page essay and reporting to you about it, as much as you hate confirmation bias, if I'm right, then you are looking for essays like this that prove solipsism. I doubt the essay even represents your opinion, it is what you searched for to justify your conclusion. Everything about the way you've conducted yourself on this thread is telling me that you are not going to change your mind on this.

Maybe you'll remember my words someday and make them work for you, maybe not of course, but it's clear to me that you're not ready to change right now. That I'm far from the first to conclude and thus shouldn't be overlooked, I imagine most posters will end up thinking the same as me if they don't already. — Judaka

You’d have to check it. I’m willing to change my mind and I want to, if you think otherwise then you haven’t been reading this thread. I want nothing more than to forget about all of this and move on with my life. My opinion is that it’s not true and I don’t believe it so.

But I can’t get over it on my own and I need others to tell me if these people are right or not. I’m not trying to justify any conclusion, I want it to be wrong so I’m seeking out anything that could be used against me and striking it down so that nothing could ever again possibly lead me back here.