Comments

  • Can Art be called creative
    Essentially yes.

    Which is why I can say no artist is truly creative.
  • Anti-Realism
    We seem to mostly rely on our sense of vision to interpret our surroundings; our sense of touch only provides information on objects beside us that we can feel. Light is deemed more fundamental than matter because it travels faster. If anything we’d expect light to be more familiar and ordinary as it’s our primary sense; it’d actually be the nature of tactile matter that’s mysterious. What if we thought of it the other way round; like matter was the hidden external reality that we share while sight was merely our own internal representation of the world? This would mean that our sense of touch is operating “outside” our sense of vision. What would that imply? It might be that nothing in our vision could actually be said to contain mass. Tactile mass would only physically appear and affect us when we happen to touch the specific object. For example, the objects shown in 2D photographs don’t have any mass whatsoever even though its colours outline where the mass was located. Through this comparison it would seem that our sightseeing perception is made at bottom of light. The objective matter we can touch is the concealed shared external world that represents the tantalising unreachable limit of our subjective perception.Michael McMahon

    No it isn't.

    And again, you avoid the question. Yes we know atoms are mostly empty space, my question is so what? What point is there in knowing that? You avoid the key remarks and just spout drivel.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Duplicate in that art itself imitates something that already exists.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Thing is I do. Art is not creative. It's not creative to duplicate something you have seen before.
  • Anti-Realism
    Again, way to avoid answering the question.

    Consciousness is not a mystery as we know it to be made by the brain. The mind does not exist. But no, consciousness is only a mystery to those who still want it to be.

    I'll ask again, and don't dodge it this time, what exactly is that point of any of this? You are avoiding the questions.
  • Anti-Realism
    The way I look at it is that the objects I see have a concrete existence in my consciousness alone and the things that you see have a concrete existence for just you. But I can’t see the same objects you see so your whole existence is abstract relative to my own perspective. This applies vice versa where my experience is abstract from your point of view. So I can’t concretely see your mind but I could interpret it to be just like an abstract object. I can’t feel your emotions but I can still relate to it by comparing your description with its abstract language and then trying to apply it to my own experiences.Michael McMahon

    I feel like I don't have to explain how nonsensical that claim is. You can see the same objects I see and vice versa, this is easy to demonstrate. Experience is not abstract though.

    Also no, you can't interpret mind, however mind is still not abstract either. You can't relate to my emotions either, anger is different to each person same with sadness and love. I've never fallen in love so your words mean nothing to me if you did, assuming you have a mind.

    Still I ask what is the point of all this? You aren't really talking with people on here, You're just waiting for them to finish saying something so that you can talk. I asked what is the point of all this and you haven't said anything. I've told you anti-realism is a self sabotaging philosophy but you don't address that problem. The people cited here (like the author of the case against reality) aren't credible sources (especially him, anyone endorsed by Deepak Chopra is a red flag).

    So I'll ask you again, what exactly is the point of all this? It sounds like mental masturbation and nothing more.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Sadly I'm starting to be more of the view of Brett. It's not really creative if it isn't new or original, you are just copying from elsewhere. It's hard to look at art the same way again, kind of makes me a little sad. Philosophy ruins life yet again.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Nowhere, there would simply be no such thing as creativity as it's just replication. I mean you can't make something from nothing and everything made is usually a variation of something else. Hence that phrase "there is nothing new under the sun", so you can't call any of that creative. Reminds me of what someone said on here about it just pushing paint around.

    This is sort of why you don't look too closely at things, you end up ruining them. The artist technically isn't creative, as they are just replicating or copying. Kind of sad when you realize it. They try to attach all these extra layers to their "work" to give it some semblance of depth but that's just blowing smoke. If you have to explain what it means then that's sort of a failure as an artist.
  • Anti-Realism
    Again, still not answering my question. I've already told you that anti realism is a philosophy that shoots itself in the foot just like solipsism.
  • Can Art be called creative
    But it's not really being creative though is it?
  • Anti-Realism
    Not what I am getting at by any stretch but ok.

    You say your reality is real to you but how do you know? I mean anti realism would be against such a claim. Some one's consciousness not existing in your reality is just a belief though, not a fact.

    I can’t directly see what it’s like to be someone else but we can obviously still infer each other’s sentient existence through the other person’s corporeal body and brain.Michael McMahon

    No you can't.

    One way of thinking about it is that we’ve a shared physical, spatial reality but we occupy different timelines.Michael McMahon

    This not only makes no sense in that there is no such thing as timelines but there is no evidence for it.

    Maybe time and space are subjectively completely separate dimensions. “Spacetime” (the simultaneous experience of both space and time) would then be unique to each observer. I can more easily imagine time existing without space than I can think of space existing without time. So I think time is intrinsically more associated with pure consciousness while the coordinates and dimensions of space are more physical in nature.Michael McMahon

    No such thing as pure consciousness either. And time and space are not separate dimensions but one field.

    So with all that dismantled I still have to ask on anti-realism, what's the point? Your argument amount to little more than shooting yourself in the foot.
  • Can Art be called creative
    I would agree that we may have reached a point of stasis today in the visual arts. And I think you’re also right: what’s the point of making art if it’s just rehashing existing firms? Which is why art seems to have found itself in places like therapy. If that’s it’s purpose then it’s now nothing more than moving paint around on a surface for peace of mind.Brett

    Well art was always like that though.
  • Anti-Realism
    Doesn't sound like a great way of understanding perception since you are essentially arguing that reality isn't real, which then makes one wonder why they should take you seriously and what you are trying to get at. This can be extended further to who are you saying all of this too if you are arguing against reality.

    Sounds like a waste of time to me, also your evidence so far does not support anti realism either.

    But again, a waste of time.
  • Anti-Realism
    Seriously though, I've never seen a more futile argument than anti realism.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Art, specifically the viewing experience is much more than (forgive me for using this word but) "simple qualia." It is often a deep, philosophical, transporting, even transformational experience. Someone once said "the power of art is its ability to take something that no one thought was beautiful before and transfiguring it into something that is." Or something like that. Another said "it [art] brings affirmation in joy and consolation in sorrow.", essentially it has a redeeming quality. Take "American Gothic", it's just two people standing in front of a house. Or so it seems. Not quite willing to write out the meta/context but you could interpret/imagine a great more than what is displayed.Outlander

    Except it isn't though. Even with the Picasso Dora Marr you can tell it's her, there isn't anything original about it. There is nothing deep or philosophical or transformational about it once you see that nothing about art is original or new, it's all derivative. All you have are quotes that seem to be rooted in ignorance.

    Yes art can be called creative, but not necessarily original.Brett

    But it wouldn't be creative though would it because it's nothing new. Looking at everything I see today it's not really new or original if I think about it. It's all been done before just with a different skin. But if that is the case then what is the point of making art then? I mean I wouldn't be making anything new.
  • Anti-Realism
    Hoffman is a quack from what I gather on his book and from the science community not to mention we wildly misunderstands the concepts he uses for his arguments.

    But the bigger question would be why would one argue for anti realism. You should see the futility of it just like arguing for solipsism.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
    Those other philosophers need to wise up.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
    I don't see it as a valid question, more like a waste of time.
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    Dear friend, thank you for sharing. Which has no bearing on the fact that mass has no mass and has no aequivalent energy respectively, iow can NOT be detected let alone be observed, and energy has NO energy and NO aequivalent mass, respectively, hence cannot be detected let alone observed. Properties exist but as an abstract object on the paper - where they are correlated, corresponded. Energy is corresponded to mass and velocity, as every pupil learns in the school. Feel free to share this, too! IF you even share the original text, which I can coarsely verify by the displayed growth / number of views on my posting. Kind regards from GERMANY!
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    You can share all day long but nobody has, does, will observe mass (no-thing) or energy (no-thing). All that anybody observes is some-thing that HAS mass and aequivalent energy respevtively, dear friend.

    I mean technically you do observe mass when you weigh something on a scale and we do observe energy everyday in terms of color, light and soundwaves.
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    It's honestly hard to get at what they are trying to say because most of their posts are a mess to read. Saying that properties of matter are not real since they are not material which I don't think is true. If that is the case then diamond and graphite are the same thing even though they are both carbon.
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    Yeah that's why I found it to be stupid. He said no one can detect or understand truth, if that's the case then why make an argument for the truth of his claim on the internet then?
  • Logically Impeccable
    "I don't think that solipsism states that nothing exists besides our consciousness, it merely states that we can never know anything about what exists outside our consciousness because we will never experience anything other than our consciousness. which means there is no reason to believe other people are actually other minds, or to believe that the external world's contents will 'continue to exist' when we are not experiencing them.Darkneos

    This sounds more like the epistemological version of the argument but I can't say I agree that there is NO reason to believe other people are other minds considering they act and behave like we do, and I would imagine that the OP knows this if they posted it on a forum (otherwise such a comment would be moot). I also have a reason to believe the external world will continue to exist without me experiencing it since plenty of stuff happens without me being aware of it. I fail to understand how these people think that solipsism is the simplest explanation when thinking about it a lot shows all the holes.

    "Western philosophy from Descartes up through Kant seemed to be going in a direction of increasing solipsism. Subject and object became further and further separated, and philosophers became more and more convinced that there was no way of knowing anything outside of them. In the 20th century, Heidegger rejected this notion as silly, noting that consciousness is defined by its being-in-the-world -- its utter dependence on outer objects to have any experience at all. Yet this concept of mind as social relations has, over the 20th century, led to a kind of different solipsism -- one of language. Wittgenstein really paved the way for this with his posthumously published Philosophical Investigations(in many ways a rebuttal of his earlier work, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus). Post-modernists and post-structuralists explored how language and shared meaning don't describe reality so much as they create it. There was an emerging sense that the individual is nothing but a series of social relations -- a cultural construct with no real identity of their own. In this sense, it was a bit of an antithesis to solipsism. Rather than wondering if others are real, the more pertinent question becomes whether oneself is real. But if there's one thing I know from Hegel, it's that whenever there's a thesis and an antithesis, there's got to be a synthesis."

    This sentiment however seems...interesting. I thought that language described reality but thinking about it now I can see how in some instances it can shape it. Simply exchanging one word for another can shift everything, I mean...it happens in politics all the time.
  • Is Cause and Effect a Contradiction?
    I mean that's not what we think though. There are events that cause other events to happen but I don't think that anyone would argue that they exist independent of each other. We just label the cause and the result that it led to, so it's two in one in a sense.

    I though his argument felt wonky to me.
  • Is Cause and Effect a Contradiction?
    As mentioned before I don't see how these things being concepts necessarily means that they don't exist.
  • Is Cause and Effect a Contradiction?
    Yeah I got into it with this guy on a different forum and something smelled off about pretty much every reply of theirs. Mind you they sent me like 4 different paragraphs full of this stuff and then blocked me from replying so...

    All I know is that they seem very sure of themselves and says they are arguing this with 99% of the forum (which to me sounds like they might need to revise their views).

    This will be a short post, because this is fairly simple to explain…well, it is now, after boiling down a very long hand-written post to its salient and self-evident points.

    Cause and effect are mutually exclusive ideas…that is, what is the cause cannot also, simultaneously, be the effect; and what is effect cannot also be the cause.

    Each notion has an absolute definition which must remain consistent in order for “cause and effect” to have any meaning in the first place.

    At the same time each notion depends on the other for its value and relevancy.

    What this means is that the cause is not actually a cause without an effect.

    There is no such thing as a cause with no effect, by definition; and the converse is also true.

    So, in other words, each notion obtains its value and meaning as a direct function of the other.

    For instance, a cause is only able to be defined as a cause and observed as a cause via the effect, which makes the cause merely a direct extension of the effect, which I have already explained must be absolute (i.e. the effect is absolutely and utterly the effect…it cannot simultaneously be a cause).

    ...And this renders any actual distinction between cause and effect impossible.

    The distinction is purely conceptual; a product of the human capacity to conceptualize what he or she observes.

    The converse, naturally, would also be true.

    An effect is only able to be defined and observed and identified as an effect via the cause; its value and relevancy a function of the cause, therefore making the effect merely a direct extension of the cause; and the cause must be absolute (i.e. a cause cannot simultaneously be an effect).

    This renders any actual distinction between cause and effect impossible.

    Such a distinction can only be made conceptually, as a product of the human conceptualizing brain, which is uniquely able to organize the environment in such a way.

    And from here you can see why the title of this article makes sense. “Cause” and “effect” are both everything (i.e. absolutes, which must possess a consistent and ineluctable definition at any given moment) and nothing (i.e. each one deriving its value and relevancy as a direct function of the other, rendering each one a direct extension of the other, thereby making moot both concepts altogether).

    Everything and nothing are mutually exclusive, which means that everything and nothing cannot possibly be the existential state of any object or force in question.

    To write the equation mathematically, everything is 1, and nothing is zero. 1 x 0 = 0. The product of both “cause” and “effect” separately is zero. And thus when you couple them together as “cause and effect”, or rather, cause plus effect, in order to complete the notion, you get, presented abstractly, 0 + 0. Which of course equals zero.

    The point is to show that cause and effect is not an actuality…is not a causal force which somehow, outside of man’s conceptualizing brain and therefore his life, exists as some actual, tangible, efficacious objective reality and causal power. But rather, the material universe is what it is, and it is a singularity, not ruled by “laws of nature” or other forces which are in reality human-derived concepts, much like “cause and effect”, and another one of my favorite punching bags, “chance” (which we will look at later).

    The material universe, being an infinite singularity, makes all objects within it likewise infinite singularities, parsed and given meaning and relevancy and truth by those who possess observation coupled with an innate ability to make a conceptual distinction between SELF and OTHER (whatever object or objects are observed to be NOT SELF). And thus, truth is a function of the truly self-aware agent.

    He who is able to know and define SELF as SELF is the Standard of Truth for all which is observed; and is likewise he who gives value to everything in the universe, and is the most valuable.

    Reason thus demands that all castes and hierarchies, and distinctions of all sorts, must inevitably crumble under the weight of infinite individual human worth.

    Because these castes and hierarchies and distinctions are not actual, they are conceptual.

    Therefore all human beings can only be judged according two things: their own self-ascribed values, and how they wish to freely exchange those values as a function of their individual attributes and desires (excepting, of course, the decidedly irrational desire to exploit and violate a fellow human being, or supposed gods, etc.).

    In this sense, then, one having “judged”, has not been in the least judgmental.
  • Logically Impeccable
    Or if you want to get at the direct version of it:

    https://qr.ae/pNUkcv

    "The origins of Solipsism in Western Philosophy comes from the Greek Pre-Socratic Sophist Gorgias who claimed that:

    Nothing exists.
    Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it.
    Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it cannot be communicated to others."
  • Logically Impeccable
    Well I was referring to the pages in general, mostly 4 and 5, which state that a belief in others is not warranted as we have no evidence for any of them.
  • Logically Impeccable
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13665046/fpart/5/vc/1#13665046


    Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.

    --Sextus Empiricus”
  • Logically Impeccable
    That's not what the epistemological version states. It's just uncertainty about the existence or lack thereof of an external world/reality or other people. It rejects metaphysical because that is a claim to knowledge when it cannot prove so, so I guess it neither affirms nor denies but says it is uncertain.

    "I don't think that solipsism states that nothing exists besides our consciousness, it merely states that we can never know anything about what exists outside our consciousness because we will never experience anything other than our consciousness. which means there is no reason to believe other people are actually other minds, or to believe that the external world's contents will 'continue to exist' when we are not experiencing them.Darkneos

    I suggest you read the other quote on this page.
  • Logically Impeccable
    How is that muddled? Though consciousness implies there is something to be conscious of. Sensation implies input from externality. Though solipsism would argue that all of sensation is a product of the mind, well some forms.

    But Western Philosophy sort of dug it's own hole here:

    "Western philosophy from Descartes up through Kant seemed to be going in a direction of increasing solipsism. Subject and object became further and further separated, and philosophers became more and more convinced that there was no way of knowing anything outside of them. In the 20th century, Heidegger rejected this notion as silly, noting that consciousness is defined by its being-in-the-world -- its utter dependence on outer objects to have any experience at all. Yet this concept of mind as social relations has, over the 20th century, led to a kind of different solipsism -- one of language. Wittgenstein really paved the way for this with his posthumously published Philosophical Investigations(in many ways a rebuttal of his earlier work, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus). Post-modernists and post-structuralists explored how language and shared meaning don't describe reality so much as they create it. There was an emerging sense that the individual is nothing but a series of social relations -- a cultural construct with no real identity of their own. In this sense, it was a bit of an antithesis to solipsism. Rather than wondering if others are real, the more pertinent question becomes whether oneself is real. But if there's one thing I know from Hegel, it's that whenever there's a thesis and an antithesis, there's got to be a synthesis."
  • Logically Impeccable
    Actually as far as solipsism goes that is pretty much it. I think therefor I am. That's all, there is a reason it's called a dead end.

    "
    "I don't think that solipsism states that nothing exists besides our consciousness, it merely states that we can never know anything about what exists outside our consciousness because we will never experience anything other than our consciousness. which means there is no reason to believe other people are actually other minds, or to believe that the external world's contents will 'continue to exist' when we are not experiencing them.Darkneos
  • Logically Impeccable
    That seems to be the case. There is often confusion between the metaphysical and epistemological verisons.

    "I don't think that solipsism states that nothing exists besides our consciousness, it merely states that we can never know anything about what exists outside our consciousness because we will never experience anything other than our consciousness. which means there is no reason to believe other people are actually other minds, or to believe that the external world's contents will 'continue to exist' when we are not experiencing them.

    but solipsism does not deny that what we are experiencing is caused by external ripples.. this is still within possibility. It can simply never be determined true or not.

    solipsism is logically flawless.. but it is also uninformative in the strictest sense of the word."
  • Logically Impeccable
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4846074/fpart/3/vc/1#4846074

    "Any type of sensory input. We divide this sensory input into categories such as sight, touch, sound, smell, etc. What we fail to acknowledge is that this classification of the senses is merely constructed and all sensation that we experience is just that, experience. It is difficult to define sensations because when we peel back the layers and look to their essence, there is nothing to be found. There is nothing other than the immediate totality of your perceptual state of being. This remains so whether or not you accept solipsism."

    "I'd also like to point out how alarmingly consistent the tenets of solipsism are with the theories of quantum mechanics, namely, "the observer determines the outcome of the experiment." How could this possibly be so if not looked at from a solipsist viewpoint?

    The same goes for the "we are all one" philosophy preached by Buddhism and other Eastern religions. In the solipsist sense, we are all one because everything exists within the single individual perception. If this is not so, then that immediately falls apart, because we are simply not all one. I am not the people who are replying to my post, I am the person that is typing this one. There is nothing to suggest otherwise because the only perception I have ever experienced is my own."

    So in this conceptualization of existence wherein we awaken to a waking dream, the “mind” addressed in effect encapsulates all the sources of awareness and intention that interact (both human and non-human). Thereby not pertaining to any one source of awareness and intention. Thereby constituting one interpretation of a non-physicalist existential reality that, all the same, is constituted of multiple selves which all pertain to a common mind—for instance, a common effete mind as C.S. Peirce would say.

    For the solipsist, there is an insistent equivocation between “me”, a source of awareness and intention, and “my mind” which is not “me” but instead belongs to “me”—such that both “me” and “my mind” are illogically affirmed to be identical. This is as equally true of mind (in whichever ontology) that is composed of both conscious awareness and sub- or unconscious awareness—such that both are conflated into “me” as conscious awareness—as it is in regard to the notion of mind as that which constitutes reality as a waking dream—wherein all others are irrationally deemed to be “figments of my imagination as a conscious awareness”.... Or, else, "my mind's figments of imagination" which, again, is conflated with the "me" that is one source of awareness and intention.
    javra

    I fail to see how this is unsound though. I mean just calling it a figment seems to be an explanation and there is nothing in solipsism that explicitly says there is an author to this. But for the purpose of solipsism (as in the threads I've shown) "me" and "my mind" are essentially one and the same. Regardless all we truly have is our own immediate sensory perception, which is also what it argues and one would find this point hard to deny.
    Solipsism is fucking rubbish!


    Solipsism is a philosophical position.
    All philosophical positions require language use.
    All language use requires shared meaning.
    All shared meaning requires a plurality of creatures.
    If solipsism is true there is no such plurality of creatures.
    If solipsism is true there is no shared meaning.
    If solipsism is true there is no language use.
    If solipsism is true there are no philosophical positions.
    Solipsism is a philosophical position.

    Draw your own conclusion.
    creativesoul

    It's still in the realm of possibility that it was all formulated in my mind. I heard the private language argument before but I also heard it's weak against solipsism. I mean one could just create all the meaning in order to organize and establish one's ideas in order for it to make sense to oneself. I don't see how language requires shared meaning, it just needs one in order to understand it.
  • Logically Impeccable
    As was stated above a modern philosopher cannot evade it under certain models.

    It's also not as ridiculous as it sounds:

    "I will begin by saying that by any standard of proof, the onus is on an opponent of solipsism to prove solipsism is false. That is because solipsism is the default stance. You exist, and that is all you can be sure of. Basic Descartes which has not been shown to be false. The best argument against Cogito is that ‘maybe you only think you exist’ but this argument can never get off the ground since this already implies the Cogito. (How can you think something without existing?)

    Now,

    IT is important to define the different notions of solipsism.

    First there is the notion that all that exists is your mind. This might encompass an experience.

    If if encompasses an experience then nothing disproves solipsism. Your feeling something bump is just a sensation of yours, as is your sensation of being in control of things when you are. All that exists are the sensations, and they are what comprise your mind.

    Mind might encompass experience plus action
    If it encompasses action then there must be something that you have action over. Therefor either you have action over all things or else you have action over some thing, IN WHICH case there exist multiple things.

    Now solipsism can still hold true if you think the self has action over some of its ‘body’. IF you think that the self is comprised of a body and a mind, then solipsism is still default, because quite simply, the things you experience, the ‘people’ you have relationships with are just part of your body, part that you do not have control over.

    To deny solipsism in this sense is to say that other people have conscious minds, but this is not proven and in fact we have no way of proving this. We take it by faith.

    If the self is considered to have control over all of itself, then solipsism is clearly FALSE because we do not have control of everything.



    So the senses that solipsism is not disproven are:

    All that exists is your experience, including your experience of control and of being affected by things that you perceive as ‘other’.

    Or

    All that exists is your mind and your body. You have control over some aspects of the body, and not others. The body supplies your mind with sensations. The crucial point is that no other minds exist.

    A sense that solipsism IS disproven is:

    All that exists is you (either body+mind or just mind), and you have control over every aspect of yourself.
    This is not true because we simply don't have control over everything.

    Solipsism is a most potent idea in the context of philosophy of MIND. Does your consciousness exist in a world with other consciousnesses or is it just your consciousness?

    Since each consciousness only has access to its own consciousness, it has no way of proving that any other consciousness exists. Therefor the default stance is SOLIPSISM. Nevertheless this is hard to accept because we see other ‘people’ who seem to behave just like us, therefor we infer INDUCTIVELY that other consciousness probably exists, unproven.”
  • Logically Impeccable
    Except it is about issues with experience based logic as I have tried to show is the case here. Solipsism would also argue that all sensation that one experiences is produced by the mind.

    "I suppose sensation is being as opposed to not being. Without sensation, there is nothing, which is inconceivable to the conscious mind. Stop moving completely for a moment, stop thinking, do not attempt to rationalize anything and just be still. Your state of being at that time will be the only thing in existence from your perspective, to assume that anything else is existing will require faith. I guess I can't give you a concrete answer because you are still presupposing that you are experiencing a "thing." Why does this have to be so? When you tear down the labels and rationalizations behind everything you'll find there is no longer any point of reference, and no coherency. You are left with nothing but the sensation of your own isolated perception, with no clear source or meaning in sight."

    The logic is clear from this quoted post, that all I have is immediate experience and anything else is an act of faith. I even posted a thread that explains the issues with experience based logic.

    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4846074/fpart/7/vc/1#4846074

    Solipsism refutes itself as even a solipsist would distinct between himself and others/things. This makes it unsound - if there was only himself he could not speak of other things: there would be nothing to experienceHeiko

    The thread I linked addresses this part. The solipsist can only be sure that they exist themselves. It's not unsound. Why do we presuppose that we are experiencing a thing when according to the wiki page on it:

    "There is no conceptual or logically necessary link between mental and physical—between, say, the occurrence of certain conscious experience or mental states and the 'possession' and behavioral dispositions of a 'body' of a particular kind."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

    So again, how does it refute itself because so far the arguments don't seem so strong. You can intend X and not X by simply waving it away as a figment of your mind. Other people are figments of your mind and imagination. You cannot hold with certainty that other selves occur as javra wants to posit. There is no inconsistency with your experiences. How do you know they are aware? How do you know they have intentions and furthermore if they do how do you know you didn't intend them to be that way?

    See what I mean? It's trickier than I hoped and that doesn't help when dealing with it.
  • Logically Impeccable
    And, it is the existing subject's relation to existence, not the nature of existence, but the relation that causes despair and makes a tragedy. As an existing subject, one is effectively "It", and this is the case regardless of whether solipsism is true or not.

    If solipsism is untrue and there are other subjects like me, I still cannot directly access their subjective immediacy as I do my own. In this way I am unique and separate. Whether there are others like me or not, I am (as a subject) alone as it were. I think alone, dream alone, shit alone, die alone...this is what existence as a subject entails, even if you are incessantly surrounded by crowds imitating your every move. This senario seems to me to be even more dreadful and tragic than that of solipsism.

    Just remember, when in solitude, everyone is effectively a solipsist, or maybe not, who knows?
    Merkwurdichliebe

    That's not true though. Because there are others around me I am not alone. I don't think alone, and I hopefully won't die alone. But if solipsism were the case then it would be true.

    I can't see why anyone would do it. Willingly choose to be cosmically alone and shut off from any friends or loved ones.

    What about the quantum physics that proves it though?
  • Logically Impeccable
    There's also some evidence from quantum physics to suggest solipsism: https://qr.ae/pNgq9Q
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_quantum_mechanics