Comments

  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    That still sounds foolish to me. Judging by his books it sounds more like the guy doesn't have a grasp on the subjects he talks about. Even his book is rife with logical fallacies.
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    I still restate my question. IF everything is ultimately based on a set of axioms that we cannot prove and have to take it on faith then what exactly is the point of performing philosophy? How can we call anything a pursuit of truth?
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    Also Gabriel doesn't seem all there as a philosopher according to reviews of his books:

    "It is a title that catches the eye but sadly the contents do not live up to the expectations that the title arouses. Most non-philosophical readers will assume that 'The world' means planet Earth or maybe just the whole of humanity. They are unlikely to be aware that Gabriel is using 'The world' to mean not just the entire physical universe but rather everything that exists – whether physical or not. In this sense, unicorns living on the far side of the moon (the author's own example) are part of 'The world' insofar as he has imagined them and therefore they exist – at least in his imagination. So the other part of the title is also being used in a way that is at best 'unusual' – since we don't normally accept that unicorns inhabit the far side of the moon – at least not without considerable qualification.

    So once we assume that 'The world' means 'everything that exists – in all senses of exist' – then we are ready for Gabriel's not terribly exciting claim that this concept does not – because it cannot – exist. This is not to say that nothing exists – which would be quite a remarkable claim – though philosophers in the past have claimed it (but then philosophers in the past have claimed all sorts of things – as some do in the present!). The concept 'everything that exists' is paradoxical and it is its paradoxical nature which entails that it cannot exist. It is self-contradictory. Gabriel divides everything up into 'object domains'. It is easier – and just as accurate - to think of these as sets – the set of all unicorns, the set of all teaspoons, etc. Now clearly there can be some sets which are found entirely or partially inside other sets – 'unicorns' inside 'mythical creatures' and 'teaspoons' partially inside 'silver utensils' (since some teaspoons are made of steel or plastic). But then let's imagine the set of all sets – the set in which all sets are to be found – the granddaddy set. Then we get the big question – 'Is the set of all sets a member of itself?' Usually known as 'Russell's Paradox' this question is paradoxical for the following reasons. Clearly if it is not a member of itself then the set of all sets is deficient – it lacks one of its members – namely itself. But if it is a member of itself then it seems to exist in two places at once – inside itself and also itself. And even sets can't be in two places at once. Or as Gabriel expresses it, “The world is not found in the world” [P.74]. So the concept of 'the set of all sets' is incoherent – and in this sense, and only this sense, the world does not exist. But even in Gabriel's strained notion of 'The world' it doesn't follow that just because it doesn't exist that therefore, “One cannot think about the world” [P.79]. To which one can only respond, “Oh yes I can!”. Non-existence or even downright self-contradiction does not prevent me from thinking about it. I could spend the whole afternoon thinking about square circles if I chose."


    https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/0745687571/ref=acr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    So then why bother? What is the point of questioning everything if you eventually have to settle on axioms? I mean even solipsism has to take it's base points on faith.
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    He seems like that "I have to make my degree matter somehow" philosopher. All his stuff when I questioned him was gated behind payment and he wouldn't clarify anything. As I mentioned before he is shooting himself in the foot.

    He tries to say that ethics doesn't need an external reality in order to be applied, at which point I couldn't take him seriously anymore.
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    Science in the broad sense. In physics it's still iffy as to what is real, I don't regard the social science definition much since they can't really agree on anything. I guess I mean repeatable and predictable which is why I don't count dreams or hallucinations as real because they aren't.
  • Why do some argue the world is not real/does not exist?
    And people wonder why no one takes philosophy seriously. I think sometimes philosophers invent problems to either have a job or feel like they haven't wasted their lives.

    I've read people's responses on here but I still stand by my points. If you want to argue that the world is not real or that there is no external reality then you are essentially shooting yourself in the foot. No one would listen to you because according to you they aren't real and you're just talking to yourself here.

    AS for the discussion of "real" I say what science says about it speaks far more than anything philosophy brings to the table. I think when discussing reality or the world philosophy is useless as my lived experience remains unchanged regardless of the argument for the world or lack of it.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Well just art in general.
  • On existence from an apparently Buddhist sense
    But I'm still iffy on the notion they are getting at. I mean even without the concept of a bird it's not like they don't exist.
  • On existence from an apparently Buddhist sense
    So what is he a corpse? I mean, if he's not speaking using his mind using thoughts or ideas formed using said mind .. yet tries to refer to a concept of "ultimate truth" processed, formed, or otherwise understood by again said mind, that is somehow and for some reason NOT dependent on (his or her) mind .. all there is would be the body. Long story short, just don't do drugs, kids.Outlander

    I think what is meant is that the borders and distinctions we make between "things" are what we make of them. Sort of like what the guy in the long quote is saying about in a world without concepts.
  • On existence from an apparently Buddhist sense
    Sorry I had a reply that addresses these properties that was part of the previous quote I had listed up above:

    In a world stripped of concepts, there is no existence as existence is itself a concept. Therefore, a fundamental prerequisite for existence is the existence of concepts. Concepts however cannot exist without a conceiving entity. Therefore, existence requires consciousness.

    The existence of a thing implies the existence of the concept of a thing. If the concept of a thing does not exist, we cannot refer to it in any way and thus its existence becomes a null concept. Thus, the concept of a thing and by consequence the thing, is a mere state of a hypothetical system that is responsible for consciousness or is conscious. I will refer to it as the conscious system.

    (1) Constant change implies that there is a never-ending action, because if action would cease to exist, then change would be at some point impossible and therefore it will not be constant. Thus infinity is an inevitability.

    (2) The concept of a thing is distinguished by the concepts of other things through the concept of not that thing. Thus, discreteness can exist, so that all experience does not merge into a single point, which allows dimensions to exist.

    (3) The fact that a thing is defined by a set of conditions, reflects the state of the conscious system, which further determines the next state of the system but also forces it to never be in (experience) the same state twice, because that would put the system in a loop which contradicts buttonion's first proposition as it would cause a stable organization in the system (that is all that is) and therefore no more change.

    Thus far I have asserted that all that exists is an infinite non repeatable experience.

    So when we say that a thing exists, we are really saying that the experience of everything that can exist, has existed or will exist if it does not now. Which sucks.
  • On existence from an apparently Buddhist sense
    Our constant habit is to become attached to those people and things that we find attractive, averted to those we find unattractive, and indifferent toward those we find neither attractive nor unattractive. We perpetuate this habit because we have another mental habit which spontaneously apprehends the conventional distinctions between objects as existing seperate from mind. Ultimate truth tells us that nothing exists independent of mind. We lack equanimity, and therefore have the ongoing potential to suffer.

    The first two pages make remarks about existence in general though.

    In a world stripped of concepts, there is no existence as existence is itself a concept. Therefore, a fundamental prerequisite for existence is the existence of concepts. Concepts however cannot exist without a conceiving entity. Therefore, existence requires consciousness.

    The existence of a thing implies the existence of the concept of a thing. If the concept of a thing does not exist, we cannot refer to it in any way and thus its existence becomes a null concept. Thus, the concept of a thing and by consequence the thing, is a mere state of a hypothetical system that is responsible for consciousness or is conscious. I will refer to it as the conscious system.
  • Can Art be called creative
    I don't put much stock in Zen philosophy. It sounds like it's based on an ignorance of neuroscience.
  • Can Art be called creative
    I disagree. The artist believes that what they create and what they see aren't identical but in a sense they are. They believe themselves to be creating when they are just duplicating various things they have known before. They aren't really making anything, just pushing paint around.

    I think there are two parts to creativity: how one looks at, perceives or understands reality, and how one expresses, interprets or renders it. As humans, I think we all have the capacity to be creatively original in how we perceive reality in our own minds, but few of us can render this genuine originality in a way that others would perceive as comprehensible, relatable or accurate.Possibility

    We don't. There is no original way to see reality, it's all variations on a theme. There is ZERO creativity present in either the perception or the expression of it either. It's just duplication.
  • Anti-Realism
    For the last time, what is the point of all this?
  • Can Art be called creative
    Essentially yes.

    Which is why I can say no artist is truly creative.
  • Anti-Realism
    We seem to mostly rely on our sense of vision to interpret our surroundings; our sense of touch only provides information on objects beside us that we can feel. Light is deemed more fundamental than matter because it travels faster. If anything we’d expect light to be more familiar and ordinary as it’s our primary sense; it’d actually be the nature of tactile matter that’s mysterious. What if we thought of it the other way round; like matter was the hidden external reality that we share while sight was merely our own internal representation of the world? This would mean that our sense of touch is operating “outside” our sense of vision. What would that imply? It might be that nothing in our vision could actually be said to contain mass. Tactile mass would only physically appear and affect us when we happen to touch the specific object. For example, the objects shown in 2D photographs don’t have any mass whatsoever even though its colours outline where the mass was located. Through this comparison it would seem that our sightseeing perception is made at bottom of light. The objective matter we can touch is the concealed shared external world that represents the tantalising unreachable limit of our subjective perception.Michael McMahon

    No it isn't.

    And again, you avoid the question. Yes we know atoms are mostly empty space, my question is so what? What point is there in knowing that? You avoid the key remarks and just spout drivel.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Duplicate in that art itself imitates something that already exists.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Thing is I do. Art is not creative. It's not creative to duplicate something you have seen before.
  • Anti-Realism
    Again, way to avoid answering the question.

    Consciousness is not a mystery as we know it to be made by the brain. The mind does not exist. But no, consciousness is only a mystery to those who still want it to be.

    I'll ask again, and don't dodge it this time, what exactly is that point of any of this? You are avoiding the questions.
  • Anti-Realism
    The way I look at it is that the objects I see have a concrete existence in my consciousness alone and the things that you see have a concrete existence for just you. But I can’t see the same objects you see so your whole existence is abstract relative to my own perspective. This applies vice versa where my experience is abstract from your point of view. So I can’t concretely see your mind but I could interpret it to be just like an abstract object. I can’t feel your emotions but I can still relate to it by comparing your description with its abstract language and then trying to apply it to my own experiences.Michael McMahon

    I feel like I don't have to explain how nonsensical that claim is. You can see the same objects I see and vice versa, this is easy to demonstrate. Experience is not abstract though.

    Also no, you can't interpret mind, however mind is still not abstract either. You can't relate to my emotions either, anger is different to each person same with sadness and love. I've never fallen in love so your words mean nothing to me if you did, assuming you have a mind.

    Still I ask what is the point of all this? You aren't really talking with people on here, You're just waiting for them to finish saying something so that you can talk. I asked what is the point of all this and you haven't said anything. I've told you anti-realism is a self sabotaging philosophy but you don't address that problem. The people cited here (like the author of the case against reality) aren't credible sources (especially him, anyone endorsed by Deepak Chopra is a red flag).

    So I'll ask you again, what exactly is the point of all this? It sounds like mental masturbation and nothing more.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Sadly I'm starting to be more of the view of Brett. It's not really creative if it isn't new or original, you are just copying from elsewhere. It's hard to look at art the same way again, kind of makes me a little sad. Philosophy ruins life yet again.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Nowhere, there would simply be no such thing as creativity as it's just replication. I mean you can't make something from nothing and everything made is usually a variation of something else. Hence that phrase "there is nothing new under the sun", so you can't call any of that creative. Reminds me of what someone said on here about it just pushing paint around.

    This is sort of why you don't look too closely at things, you end up ruining them. The artist technically isn't creative, as they are just replicating or copying. Kind of sad when you realize it. They try to attach all these extra layers to their "work" to give it some semblance of depth but that's just blowing smoke. If you have to explain what it means then that's sort of a failure as an artist.
  • Anti-Realism
    Again, still not answering my question. I've already told you that anti realism is a philosophy that shoots itself in the foot just like solipsism.
  • Can Art be called creative
    But it's not really being creative though is it?
  • Anti-Realism
    Not what I am getting at by any stretch but ok.

    You say your reality is real to you but how do you know? I mean anti realism would be against such a claim. Some one's consciousness not existing in your reality is just a belief though, not a fact.

    I can’t directly see what it’s like to be someone else but we can obviously still infer each other’s sentient existence through the other person’s corporeal body and brain.Michael McMahon

    No you can't.

    One way of thinking about it is that we’ve a shared physical, spatial reality but we occupy different timelines.Michael McMahon

    This not only makes no sense in that there is no such thing as timelines but there is no evidence for it.

    Maybe time and space are subjectively completely separate dimensions. “Spacetime” (the simultaneous experience of both space and time) would then be unique to each observer. I can more easily imagine time existing without space than I can think of space existing without time. So I think time is intrinsically more associated with pure consciousness while the coordinates and dimensions of space are more physical in nature.Michael McMahon

    No such thing as pure consciousness either. And time and space are not separate dimensions but one field.

    So with all that dismantled I still have to ask on anti-realism, what's the point? Your argument amount to little more than shooting yourself in the foot.
  • Can Art be called creative
    I would agree that we may have reached a point of stasis today in the visual arts. And I think you’re also right: what’s the point of making art if it’s just rehashing existing firms? Which is why art seems to have found itself in places like therapy. If that’s it’s purpose then it’s now nothing more than moving paint around on a surface for peace of mind.Brett

    Well art was always like that though.
  • Anti-Realism
    Doesn't sound like a great way of understanding perception since you are essentially arguing that reality isn't real, which then makes one wonder why they should take you seriously and what you are trying to get at. This can be extended further to who are you saying all of this too if you are arguing against reality.

    Sounds like a waste of time to me, also your evidence so far does not support anti realism either.

    But again, a waste of time.
  • Anti-Realism
    Seriously though, I've never seen a more futile argument than anti realism.
  • Can Art be called creative
    Art, specifically the viewing experience is much more than (forgive me for using this word but) "simple qualia." It is often a deep, philosophical, transporting, even transformational experience. Someone once said "the power of art is its ability to take something that no one thought was beautiful before and transfiguring it into something that is." Or something like that. Another said "it [art] brings affirmation in joy and consolation in sorrow.", essentially it has a redeeming quality. Take "American Gothic", it's just two people standing in front of a house. Or so it seems. Not quite willing to write out the meta/context but you could interpret/imagine a great more than what is displayed.Outlander

    Except it isn't though. Even with the Picasso Dora Marr you can tell it's her, there isn't anything original about it. There is nothing deep or philosophical or transformational about it once you see that nothing about art is original or new, it's all derivative. All you have are quotes that seem to be rooted in ignorance.

    Yes art can be called creative, but not necessarily original.Brett

    But it wouldn't be creative though would it because it's nothing new. Looking at everything I see today it's not really new or original if I think about it. It's all been done before just with a different skin. But if that is the case then what is the point of making art then? I mean I wouldn't be making anything new.
  • Anti-Realism
    Hoffman is a quack from what I gather on his book and from the science community not to mention we wildly misunderstands the concepts he uses for his arguments.

    But the bigger question would be why would one argue for anti realism. You should see the futility of it just like arguing for solipsism.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
    Those other philosophers need to wise up.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
    I don't see it as a valid question, more like a waste of time.
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    Dear friend, thank you for sharing. Which has no bearing on the fact that mass has no mass and has no aequivalent energy respectively, iow can NOT be detected let alone be observed, and energy has NO energy and NO aequivalent mass, respectively, hence cannot be detected let alone observed. Properties exist but as an abstract object on the paper - where they are correlated, corresponded. Energy is corresponded to mass and velocity, as every pupil learns in the school. Feel free to share this, too! IF you even share the original text, which I can coarsely verify by the displayed growth / number of views on my posting. Kind regards from GERMANY!
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    You can share all day long but nobody has, does, will observe mass (no-thing) or energy (no-thing). All that anybody observes is some-thing that HAS mass and aequivalent energy respevtively, dear friend.

    I mean technically you do observe mass when you weigh something on a scale and we do observe energy everyday in terms of color, light and soundwaves.
  • What is truth and how do we know it?
    It's honestly hard to get at what they are trying to say because most of their posts are a mess to read. Saying that properties of matter are not real since they are not material which I don't think is true. If that is the case then diamond and graphite are the same thing even though they are both carbon.