Ok, I see Truth and “fact” as different. I see Truth as that which “is”, regardless of Experience. I understand “fact” to be an honest depiction of personal Experience. So the Experience of Solidity, would be contrasted by the Experience of Liquid or even Air (which is water in different degrees). But the Experience does not necessitate the Belief. Rather, the belief necessitates the Experience. Thus presenting us with a Science of Manifestation. Which does in fact give us an explanation of lying manifestations, appearing Real. Also shines Light on why this understanding is utterly required to escape a “lower realm” that is divided and doomed to destruction, imo.

This clarifying what is at a distance from what language can say clearly is philosophy's job.

I am with Boethius, in describing what is Philosophy? Basically our Philosophies determine what is Sensible to us.

But here again, the Experience of Solidity is only justified by the existence of Truth, imo, yes, but I see no other possibility.

so if I understand our differences, the core issue is that I see a nonphysical, spiritual core, if u will, behind all Experience, whereas you do not…. Am I correct here?

But all Experience is based on perception, which is the same but different for all. The reality of things sensible being made of things not sensible, proves to be indisputable, once one recognizes that what we are able to sense is limited only by our beliefs, which are non sensible in and of themselves. Their final product is sensible but the belief itself is not. It is merry thought, or spirit, however one wants to word it.

I know many see the “invisibles” as Descriptors of some thing presented to the senses, as attributes of some preexisting Matter, but it is just as rational to say that those “attributes” are what makes up the Experience of Matter.

I think one always has to keep Wittgenstein in mind. The Good, he said, was divinity, but one may not speak of it. It is a given, and language cannot penetrate this, so one should simply not try to speak of it.

So can anyone explain why “the Good”, in and of itself, supposes the opposite to have to be?

I understand that most use contrast to justify this, but clearly the Gnostics have found no need to maintain giving life to death. To be clear, I am not set on any particular “religion”. I do however equate the Experience of Solidity whatsoever with Truth, and all Ideas as a Water, thus making much sense, or shall I say, making such Thoth, Thought, sensible, tho clearly Cabalistic in revelation.

This Absolution of Good, presents as an accessible Kingdom, a Realm in which Mind is a realm tainted by Division. This division is maintained throughout all society, and as noted in the scriptures, “a house divided cannot stand”. It may be necessary to maintain a Forceful mindset, but to maintain Humility in a Circle would put Nature under Subjection, and without Force….

Some would call this the Stone.

;)

The aesthetic is not wrought out of pragmatic consummatory experiences; rather, the aesthetic is discovered in these.

So the basis of the scientific method being used to validate Experience, would only ensure the solidifying of a grand circular idea??

Well, without being too open, I will try to point at it. Reason being because one must invest into the equation, to have a personal experience with the Truth, else one is just taking another’s experience as Gospel, with no personal evidence.

The scientific mind is indeed the closest to the Truth in these days, but on needs to see the relationship between where we came from and how the four Elements function. The relationship of the Elements, in practice, presents as a fire heated seven times hotter than normal.

This furnace is depicted in every Cathedral, and the hints in concrete and metal artwork throughout history. The Key allows for the greening and growing of Splendor Solis, that is also in every business building’s artwork, whether in stone or art.

Once one can see this unspoken Cabala all throughout every aspect of society, as a constant reminder of the renewing of the mind needed to accomplish the Worke.

Many have said there is more Truth in the first ten scriptures of Genesis than in all the libraries of the world. To answer the question, “what is Truth”, I can only answer: what has no opposition, and is always, regardless of Experience. Truth accounts for all experience of solidity, where all came from a Water.

I hope I have not overstepped.

“defunct”?? From a lesser Perspective maybe, but clearly even modern scientists at CERN even find the mixture of art and truth an effective expression of said truth.

clearly the Artists of old mixed art and truth, as Fulcanelli reveals in the Mystery of the Cathedrals.

meaning in the form of belief

I see it backwards, that belief determines the possible forms. But yes, there is the huge error of taking meaning from the form. This is a huge error that not many see, and to me, is responsible for all circular repetition resulting in a solidified experience of the lie believed, in this case. But the same process can be applied to the dissolution of ha’satan.

And thank you!

My only contention is the obvious need for the destruction of opposites…. The necessity of “other than the Truth”, is a lie, in and of himself. To equate Truth and lies is an impossibility, which necessitated quantum theory, in my opinion of course. This is a legitimate function of Mind as a Realm of Experience. Some seriously awesome sauce to cook.

"Belief" is said to be the Key in affecting change. Epistemology is essential. U ask about belief, so I encourage one to take some time to look at "believe".... to "be alive", is just one take on it, but explains the Force of that which is non-forceful.

As I see it, there is Truth and there is Perspective. Which understanding presents one with a Choice in which to allow to cause action or word.... No action or word occurs without will. One does not get up from the couch without willing something in the fridge, for example. Some will run wild with this without understanding, and thus produce nothing to affect change, thus solidifying the lies they believe and using such momentum's to force upon unsuspecting minds.

Art devoid of Truth is merely imagination without will.

For me, this is a fun topic. One does not get up to get anything from the fridge without Believing the floor is there and will hold them. This “belief” is the motivation, the reason, is founded on many Beliefs that the “subconscious” clearly processes Before the Action seeks Agreement. This is merely how I see it but seems to be universal when searched out.

I respond with valid data.

Their is a science to the miracles of Jesus Christ. That science tho, has been twisted, and used to murder and steal and rape and pillage.

To look past the supposed boundaries of societies, is to ask to be put outside society, and that, most find to be insanity to chase after.

It is a monster to wrestle with. To be looked down on from all of society, simply because you challenge the ways of that society. But to do that, it risks your housing, food, friendships, etc.

That requires Faith.

To begin to dissolve the lying risks.

Force requires potential energy to grow more forceful, right? Are not the risks forcing upon the mind?? And who gives the life to the risks?

You are the PE.

Unless you’re gonna say that the risks are there regardless of whether or not you believe them to be? Now we enter into the hive-mind. Society.

As for the wars caused by Faith, that one is a bit touchy, but I will try.

If one looks at what helps “life” grow, and what helps “death” grow, the murder of murderers would in fact be “life sustaining”, thereby justifying even the wars in the Bible itself.

Taken out of context tho, this would be used as license to do as thou wilt.

No different than restraining a child from running into traffic. Are u withholding their freedom from them?? Or saving a life?

To wipe out an entire nation, would only be justified by God Alone. Otherwise it is the eugenicists that believe that the whole must be destroyed.

Now if God chose to do so, is He not justified?? How He chooses to do it, using man, or fire from Heaven, or whatever other method, seems to me justified. If “we have nothing that wasn’t given”, as the Bible claims, then that includes our thoughts, and leaves only two sides for their source.

I find two beliefs trying to coexist, in your attack on faith. Don’t get me wrong, I see the very same inquisition fires and fanatical groups, but on all sides of the coin. To me, there is that which feeds life, and appears to be that which feeds death.

Life grows.

Death consumes, and is never full.

I personally cannot separate faith from science. Any time we place a set of laws on our actions, to reach a specific goal, it’s a science we are seeking. So then I guess I have to retract my desire to “destroy science”.

I am set on the belief of the Bible, and more from common sense than anything. But if looked at as a Science of how to achieve the miracles discussed, along with a path to Heaven, it does seem rational. One “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” finally gets understood as the Mind, a great many miracles become attainable.

That is another word needing defined as well. What is a miracle? A manifestation of Truth in a world full of lying experiences.

If the Bible claims to be the Truth, then our Science should be seeking to reach those goals. Not a Science to “do as thou wilt”.

But again we get sidetracked from our main topic. “What is faith”?

First of all, this “2000 year old doctrinal book”, as you described it, is a compilation of 60 books, from multiple places, having no more communication than horseback delivered messages, traveling through opposition much less restrained than our times, yet still managing to reach the cohesion necessary to be understood and practiced. Different writers had never communicated with others whatsoever. Yet all come together perfectly.

The control tactics of the church buildings of the past are despicable. Yes it gets worse as time goes on. Just because it’s not openly torching people does not mean it’s less extreme measures are less effective.

Let’s separate the buildings from the writings tho. If one claims a faith, it should be in the writings, or founded therein. Not an organization of man.

1Sam. 8 clarifies this issue rather clearly.

Again tho, we are back to “what is faith”?

If as you say, faith and belief are one and the same, then we must indeed trash the entire book that says we can reach these “miracles” by faith, which you say is belief. If that is all the further you choose to search it out, then that is all that you will get.

Faith questions the norm. Just because it is accepted that “what goes up must come down”, Faith challenges that belief.

But it’s what one puts their faith in that matters. Faith in man? Or faith in the Truth? Faith in experience? Or faith in the Truth?

Only by Faith can we reach experience of the Truth, due to the circular problem of basing our truth off of experiences. That is not how the Book says to experience the Truth. So we experience lies, and justify them as Truth. But if we can experience lies, that throws a damaging blow to our science, wouldn’t u say??

For 1, Faith is not Belief. Belief has the ability to change things, according to Scripture, and according to most magical books. Pacts and rituals and such are all to reinforce a Belief. But had the person had no faith in the rituals, no further action could be taken. Even Jesus Himself was limited by a town's unbelief.

In His healing of the centurion's servant, Jesus told the man to "Go! As you have believed, so be it done unto you".

Now we can easily contest science here, at least as far as how most have been taught. They have been taught to believe a criteria based upon sensory data, when the belief itself determines the sensory data.

Do you see a problem here?

Now comes the issue of momentum of belief, or as is biblically known as "iniquity".... the momentum of lying beliefs. They affect how we experience our world. And it take quite the effort to overthrow these lying beliefs, once believed. Kinda like trying to un-know something. Not so simple. Once we know it, we know it.

That is not to say it cannot be done tho. But then it becomes threatening to societies everywhere, because this "believer" of some "idea", actually stands to restructure the entire lying system.

Therefore, that is why Pilot allowed the Jews to crucify the Master.

Faith is to get us to a belief that changes things.

Sir Mo,

let's start one step at a time. What is your core issue with my stream of thought? If you base all your issues with my writing upon a universal understanding of the laws of physics, then I simply contest, with a faith and biblical basis. I'm not saying u have to agree with me either. But a scientific basis for a philosophical conversation can only go as far as the "sphere" allows. I am coming from outside that sphere, and simply pointing out two contrasting views, and foundational points of each, that do seem to cause a divide. A separation. And rightly so. The psychology of man is a simple basis for argument here. Most shrinks would agree that the agreements one holds, determine what a person will say and do, given a specific situation. It's all based on the laws of momentum, applied to things non-physical, being thoughts and agreements with those thoughts. When put in perspective of the media we are constantly bombarded by, with a basic education as a typical education, then one can simply and easily see the chance for possible indoctrination. I'm not saying you have been indoctrinated, but simply that any belief founded on a divided system such as force and potential energy, is doomed to fail, eventually. All of nature backs this up. This is not so easy to accept, due to the cognitive dissonance and the life we have given to lies immediately fending for self. Funny, the bible calls these lying beliefs, "idols". It all begins to make some amazing sense if one is willing to look past the so-called "science" they have been taught, and start to question the more foundational things: How do u experience anything at all? A brain and a nervous system, right? Eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and skin, all sending data to a brain to interpret, right?

So what if Jesus said something that totally dissolves a brain altogether??

Like you, if you're not going to answer my questions, then I will call this conversation over with too, but it does not have to be. I have some extremely wild things that I see, and I can admit that. It took me quite a while to not argue with myself. So I know how hard the path is to reach certain conclusions and accept the validity of them. But if ur basis for argument is science, then I stand on the common sense that force requiring potential energy to become more forceful, is a house divided, and cannot stand the test of time.

So what is faith??

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -- Hebrews 11:1 KJV

But I can go much, much farther with this line of reasoning than most are willing to hear.

If you wanna destroy "science" with me, I'm happy to entertain the notion.

Are u???

We were not talking about beliefs in everyday life, but whether science is supported by some kind of faith.

Sir, I follow you quite well. I just don't understand how the laws of force and momentum can ever allow for something concrete, when all they seem to offer is a watery perception that changes from person to person? Here, if allowed, I would dare to mention the "sorcery" or "mind control" of popular education, being tested and then reinforced in society via classes and such. Taking the very momentum of belief, and forcing it upon the lesser, thereby determining/forcing a specific outcome.

Now to bring this back to faith, the reason certain writings are so "undefined", is because there is only One Who is meant to decide the manifestation of those things, at that appointed time. On could say that this indeed is the basis of faith. Not needing a determined form until the determined form is brought to manifestation.

Here again though, requires a certain mindset that is not allowed in education systems. The education forces a mindset, that one must indeed go against the grain and fight the fires of the world mind. The hive-mind, if you will. To fight against this mind is a fire. The Truth though, believed, is a Fire, by which to put the fires of the world under subjection. This requires a faith, to reach the belief it takes to overcome the momentum of the hive-mind.

Forgive me for trying to shine some light on an obviously hard to even hear topic. The cognitive dissonance though, is founded on momentum of agreements. The only way to step out of those agreements, to experience something new, requires faith.

No scientist says that a hypothesis is true before it is tested.

No person gets out of bed without believing the floor is there and will hold them. In order to test a hypothesis, one needs faith in the things they hold to be true. To challenge core agreements takes faith in the unseen. To get past sensory data running the show, faith is required. We have all seen things that we are forced to justify by some rational means, but this is surely to keep us from going insane. If it applies “here”, it should apply “there”, and due to that very agreement, we apply our will, and move to test our predictions.

Knowledge maintains and solidifies, according to Scripture. They term it “Belief”. Faith is to get one to the Belief that changes things typically Experienced. But if one takes the Experience as the only possible outcome, without trying to believe otherwise, without trying to do the work to reach that Belief, one stays in a sphere of the same controlled system; taught to experience what they experience.

The bigger issue here is when experience is misinterpreted as Truth. We all experience lies daily. But it takes “faith, the substance of things unseen”, to affect change Legally.

Faith is the typical starting point for all Science, “believe it or not”. All Science starts with assumption and hypothesis, therefore equating itself with a faith, of sorts, but is nonetheless removed from most “spiritual” thought. After quite a bit of research into this very topic, our Science is built upon a house divided. To “believe” in the firmness of a watery, ever-changing momentum, depending upon whose perspective one chooses to side with, is merely an open display of force. This force, invisible as it is, is governed by the very laws of motion that most natural scientists agree would only apply to things we can process via sensory data. Given the dilemma brought forth here, I am rather forced to agree that our Science and our scientists are more persuaded in a faith than a Science. One cannot deny the utter invisibility of the so-called “energy”. As elusive as it may be, one cannot deny its effects on that which may be sensed. Here again though, our sensory data is said to be processed by a brain that we only see in dead animals, and yes, humans as well. But if this organ of repute would be a liar, an intelligent liar at that, how would we ever be the wiser? Seems to me to be more of a faith issue to believe there is any such thing as solidity, yet force the opposite. Yes there is water and yes there is steel, but if any Science dares make a claim to Truth, the very existence of which Absolutely dissolved every single lying experience. Truth cannot even in the slightest be divided. It either is, or is not. The sensory perception of lies does not validate the lies experienced whatsoever. It merely means the lies believed have more momentum than the Truth believed. To disregard all this, merely to appease the prideful, is to have a greater faith than most of Science is willing to admit as of yet. All the past alchemists saw this, and all died trying to “balance” what can only be dissolved. The lies only have the life that we give them. They are indeed a Fire to overcome, but once overcome, the experience of Truth clearly dominates the senses, “everywhere the sole of your feet shall go”. Faith in the Truth is to reach the belief needed to experience the Truth. Basing truth on experience is utterly circular and infinite, when put in context of Jesus Christ saying, and our psychology reaffirming, “as you have believed, so be it done unto you”. The laws of motion assure us that the momentum of belief will surely affect our experiences. It takes faith to seriously question what most believe is concrete. But the application of this faith leads to a belief that must change things, at least within our realm of experience and influence. This too is why witches were burnt for the charge of sorcery. But I digress.