What does that even mean?

A wallowsome issue.

I think it must be both...

What made you say that, as I'm off base.

Pretty much man. But, I'm glad we'll be done with the era of men or the ever subjunctive female in terms of worth defined by output.

Gödel proved that true sentences of self-reference can be unresolved contradictions in his incompleteness theory. — 3017amen

Yes, in formal systems; but, akin to what @ChatteringMonkey is mentioning, they can also arise in informal languages?

No maybe not, maybe that's to strong of a claim. Your could also accept that you have different values, and look for a solution that is a compromise between the two. — ChatteringMonkey

In light of that what then should guide a person to formulate his or her own values, if you don't mind me badgering you?

This is often why in political discussions people tend to talk past eachother. People simply have different values that aren't compatible. and then the discussion cannot really be resolved... other than someone abandoning their values in favour of the other. — ChatteringMonkey

Is it necessary that one abandon ones belief posing as the solution here?

If we are talking about something man-made however, like values, morals or law for instance, contradictions need not necessarily imply a logical mistake or faulty premisses, because we aren't describing the world, but we create values and morals etc... and those could be contradictory. The way to deal with those is not necessarily by 'solving them', but could be to just accept it and make amends for values that are necessarily contradictory. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, if not a contradiction, then what exactly is it, then?

Very interesting stuff hereabouts.

The sole source of causation in a solipsist world would be its own intent. If not, then what is "intent"? — Harry Hindu

I think that's the central question here. That is, what is *intent* exactly...

What is "doubt" in a solipsist world? — Harry Hindu

There can be none, I suppose. So, the question seems ill phrased... On the other hand, the world of the solipsist is so full of certainty that doubt seems in fact... meaningless.

I'm really stumped here, @Banno, @unenlightened?

Why would the characters in the dream world seem to have an intent if their own? Why wouldnt the solipsist's intent be the source of all the action within their own world if the world was really just its self? — Harry Hindu

Well, you seem to have set the cart before the horse here.

Everything that exists at any moment exists within the solipsist mind, so it would be a contradiction for a solipsist to posit a cause that isn't part of its experience, like the unconscious being the cause of something that is experienced. For a solipsist, all causation happens within the experience. There can be no external causes to its experience. — Harry Hindu

Yes; but, the solipsist can never doubt that things happen otherwise. It's a self-determining future at all points of the experience.

Still, the point here is nation-building, not fighting a landlocked war between Pakistani, Saudia Arabian, and Iranian influence.

I still contest, that even in dreams, where dream characters seemingly have an intent of their own, that it is still originating from something that can be called a "self". No?

He's confusing world with mind. — Harry Hindu

Same thing?

barring schizopotent determination — ZzzoneiroCosm

What does this mean? Curious...

Lot's of Bach...

There seems to be a lot of self-hatred in regard to suicidal thoughts in my view. Strength or the perception of having strength seems to be a theme of those suffering from suicidal thoughts in my view,

At least in my case, I've always perceived being as weak as something that prevented me from accepting myself.

And, as an American, I value strength.

I went to the same bar every night. I got as drunk as I could and walked home. I would wake up and smoke cigarettes all day (2 packs or so). I checked myself into mental hospitals and then, checked-in, tried to find ways to get out, because it wasn't helping, and I needed to commit suicide. — csalisbury

Yeah, at some point in my life, out of utter desperation, I turned to drugs to help me cope with suicidal thoughts. Stimulant medications really helped me a lot in terms of creating a sense of "motivation: to keep on-going. But, that can only last so long as it's artificial.

I was very much aware of the thing of 'it gets better' and I had nothing but contempt for it, but.... — csalisbury

*Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet?*
:lol:

Should you avoid suicidal thoughts in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to face them? — Dawnstorm

I really don't know what you mean by "facing suicide". Usually (in my case), there's a lot of anxiety when those thoughts appear.

What if someone uses suicidal thoughts for some sort of catharsis, like roleplaying, rather than as premeditation for an act? — Dawnstorm

That's pretty dark, man.

Some suicidal thoughts never lead to an actual suicide. But even suicidal thoughts that are not connected to an intention to kill oneself can lay the groundwork for a future suicide - as you familiarise yourself with the thought patterns. An example would be: "having a favourite hypothetical method" --> "being comfortable with the method, thus removing one psychological disincentive." — Dawnstorm

What do you mean by "psychological disincentive"?

As a formerly suicidal person I can tell you that fear of dying and fear of death are not the same thing. I have the former but not the latter. — Dawnstorm

Please elaborate. I seem to be encompassed by fear lately.

I've just learned to live through my suicidal phase, and now suicidal thoughts are some sort of cathartic tool (and that sometimes includes black humour). — Dawnstorm

Yeah, I'm the guy who stays in the kitty pool instead of jumping off the deep end. Did time or your age help you see the whole issue as some childish desire or fantasy?

Depression is actually welcome, because it's more comfortable than the anxiety of what sort of contradictory demands will come your way next. — Dawnstorm

Yeah, I agree with this. I prefer depression instead of anxiety.

I'd really like to ask him why he rejected Godel's Incompleteness theorems as, what he called, "logical tricks".

Since this topic got a bump, I would like to share some thoughts.

Suicide can be mitigated by becoming more aware of other people or thoughts. There's an element of insanity about suicide. The insanity of suicide seems to manifest in perceiving one's future as completely enveloped by depression or some mood.

I think the best way to avoid suicidal thoughts is to first take some antidepressant, and engage in therapy or some constructive endeavor if one has enough motivation to do so.

But... can critical thinking be taught?

Hmm. :chin:

Possibly.

I count Greta Thunberg as fortunate because she's someone who seems to be sufficiently removed from the struggles of life and therefore has the time and energy to feel for one of the problems we are'll going to have to deal with in the future and then act on those feelings. — TheMadFool

Feelings... So, what do you make out of her feelings? Is it empathy or something else, like anger or outrage?

Cool. :cool:

I appreciate the spirit of hedonism. It is truly one of the greatest of philosophies, cutting through the befuddling fog and gets right to the point of literally everything we do - seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. Of course there's more there than just that but I guess somebody will figure it out one day if they haven't already. — TheMadFool

Yes, it is. I find it relieving, in a way that allows me to affirm my existence of solitude and comfort.

@Banno, what do you think?

I've never heard 'hedonism' of any variety mentioned in Buddhist discourse, although the pursuit of pleasure is generally regarded as a canker and a hindrance. — Wayfarer

But, we are in agreement, that even the Buddhists are limiting something (desire) that they assume causes suffering>?

Really? — TheMadFool

Yeah, you dug into the argument and understood the issue as I presented it. Or otherwise, I don't really have anything against a negative version or "soft" version of hedonism.

Yes. :)

That sounds a tad bit religious.

That's OK, I'm a retired math prof who lacks depth in philosophy. — John Gill

That's fine. We're glad you are here. :smile:

From a Buddhist perspective, soft hedonism is compatible with the notion of reducing pain, rather than increasing pleasure, I think?

Starting at zero, what goes up must come down. Going up is fun. Going down not so. You can not separate pleasure from pain, the up from the down. However because we are zero dwellers, what comes up from down does not have to go down again but the pleasure we derive from it is the same. -1 to 0 is the same as 0 to 1. — ovdtogt

Yes, I think stability instead of an existence in flux is more desirable, in terms of a happy life?

Why indirectly? Why not directly? — ovdtogt

The pursuit of pleasure has been time and time again a futile effort. The only sure way to promote it, as far as I can tell, is through reducing pain and suffering (pace Schopenhauer).

That is also incorrect. The alleviation of pain is also good. — ovdtogt

I think, that's what I'm trying to point out here. Pleasure or rather, content or satisfaction, will indirectly be promoted by the alleviation of pain.

This is incorrect. People are motivated by pleasure and pain. — ovdtogt

Yes, that is true. But, I meant to point out the extremism of certain positions of hedonism wrt. to pleasure.

I should have stated:

1) Pleasure, according to hedonists, is the only good.