The real tragedy is that people have become desensitized to this sort of lunatic thinking of building moats around the border and filling them with alligators, shooting migrants in the legs, Jesus you get the point, I hope.

This fucking imbecile*.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/01/politics/new-york-times-trump-shoot-migrants-legs/index.html

*Dangerous imbecile*

Some observations.

-A double standard being applied to the law of Trump staying in office and near-certainty being unelectable rather than impeaching him.

and...

-Needs talk.

Anyone else notices this?

Epictetus: "Make the best use of what is in your power and take the rest as it happens." — Ciceronianus the White

Yes, despite the allure of Stoicism in seemingly empowering an individual to think and assess what is the best or more-so the right course of action, there is a lot of appeal to 'fate', 'what the god's want', 'fortune', and 'good-will'.

Are these things all things not under one's control?

The striking thing about Stoicism is that the significance of things outside your control is discounted. — Ciceronianus the White

Quite so, and this falls squarely into the sentiment I expressed in point #1. For any intellectual who has read such things as Manufactured Consent, by Chomsky, or is vaguely aware of the nature of American democracy in managing the expectations of the hoi polloi.

What am I getting at?

Namely, things under our control have been eroded to the simple choice of whether I want a Pepsi or Coca-Cola. Same shit I would say.

So, desire, envy, greed, hate don't arise and don't motivate or influence a true Stoic because they result from a person's desire for or fear of things/people outside their control. — Ciceronianus the White

OK, and here I would like to point out a side issue that I have noticed in Stoicism that has been irking me for quite a while. Namely, the idealization of what some Stoics consider as a true and genuine Stoic, apart from the purported sages. Just where do you draw the line here? I suppose the Cynics did away with the ambiguity, and really are the sages that the Stoics admired, which they actually did admire.

Stoicism, especially Roman Stoicism, is very practical; it serves as a guide regarding how to live. — Ciceronianus the White

As a follow up to the previous paragraph, this is hard to gauge. And, I return to point #4, as to whether Stoicism is actually making me a happier person, which is perhaps the only test that can be subjected to Stoic philosophy.

Equanimity is the goal of Stoicism; aequanimitas to the Roman Stoics, apatheia to the Greeks. What better way to achieve that that understanding what you can do and what is or is not worth doing? Stoicism is practical wisdom, and as such it serves quite well. If that's not philosophy, so be it. — Ciceronianus the White

Little disagreement here. For the matter, I think happiness is overrated. But, there's no way around the fact that some pragmatic test is demanded by any free-thinker or individual to asses the merit of Stoicism in coping(?) with the struggle of ascertaining what is in fact under their control or not...

This is a topic worthy of another thread; but, thanks for pointing out how Buddhists and those from the Eastern tradition ought to be read.

Im wondering as to why HK is even considered a threat in PRC eyes? Perhaps ssu can chime in here and expose more of the blind obedience demanded from HKers by the PRC?

Holy cow. Glad you made it safe and sound.

I never visited Russia; but, they are struggling to modernize. I don't entirely understand Russia for the matter as they are one of if not the most resource rich countries in the world.

And, to add, they didn't think highly of China during their heyday as a communist state. Oh how have the tables turned.

Oh and thanks for the link, @Wayfarer.

This is the review I had in mind. (That said, whenever I engage with Zen, I become acutely aware of my fundamentally Anglo nature :yikes: .) — Wayfarer

I get your point. I find the Anglosaxon way of consumerist life fundamentally at odds with the calm serenity of seeking advice from elders, immersing in healthy habits (apart from the bodybuilding that goes about in my Californian state, I do wonder what a Zen monk would make out of this bodybuilding craze, heh), etc. etc. etc.

Are you on drugs?

Gimme some. :razz:

See my thread on Jesus being labeled as a schizophrenic. Lots of juicy meat to eat.

JK was usually referring to inner states when he said the observer is the observed. If you are greedy and tell yourself you shouldn't be greedy, that very judgment takes you away from what is. The observer of greed is the greed. — Anthony

So, I do know that Buddhist thought contests the notion of having any type of 'self'. But, isn't it the observer that is being observed that is the locus of what one might call a 'self'?

If you understood that, you are probably at least as screwed up as I am. — Valentinus

Haha, aren't we all broken 'goods'?

Are you getting a feeling for the metrics I am trying to establish here? — Valentinus

Vaguely, but I follow...

Thanks!

Wow, one of those topics that hits you in the feels months later, when things are going somewhat OK.

I'll get back to you @robbiefrost soon, I need to build some distance here between the apparent Helter Skelter feel of this thread and whatever logic it may contain.

@Bartricks

Chill dude.

I sometimes use his words to explain myself. I prefer not to use my words to explain him. — unenlightened

Fishy, given his abandonment of his followers and others as World Teacher.

Fake fake fake.

It's all fake! Cuz' we all inhabit a world of... Fake news, fake boobs, fake tanning spray, fake fake fake.

But even if were the case, how does that invalidate stoicism? — petrichor

Among the many theories that Stoicism propounds, I have seen it professed that a free will is necessary for it to make sense. What's strange, is that Stoicism is a deterministic school of thought. So, go figure!

I do admit, I loved Epictetus' "Manual"="Enchiridion" in my youth. But, puh-leeze don't really treat it as a manual to live by in the slightest. Not if you want a sane and comfortable life of ease. If you're a masochist, then, by all means, go ahead!

There is no 'how'. Identity is a habit of thought — unenlightened

Now, this needs more explication. Shoutout to our forum bodybuilders, ehem, I meant intellectuals.

Fuck man. I can't do it because of my mom. It's fucking broken logic to see yourself happy at your passing of your mother so you can kill yourself .

What about it being a higher order volition instead of a feeling?

It is interesting that you understood my remark about taking pleasure in cruelty as a kind of gratitude. — Valentinus

I can't connect the dots hereabouts, help me out here.

Just as an elaboration. These sort of 'moods' manifest (in my case) into eventually suicidal ideations.

I am really tired of this sort of chastizing of myself, that goes on daily, without respite.

My hope... Is that I can grow out of these tendencies, that is retarding it.

This is a really difficult subject. — Valentinus

Indeed. I find it puzzling that one be negative at all. So, says the depressed person who is suffering at the moment.

I see the automatic quality of the self denigration. I see myself taking pleasure in it while it hurts me. — Valentinus

I find no gratitude over it. It sucks, just being honest here.

I feel that I learned this from others but none of the likely suspects are anywhere near as good at it as I am at hurting myself. — Valentinus

So, elaborate on this if you don't mind. What is it that others have taught you about yourself, that would merit this self-chastizing?

This thing of being trapped in myself is oddly connected to everything else I observe. But if I turn that observation into a thing, I lose sight of the original sighting. — Valentinus

And here I am lost. Please elaborate.

On the positive side, the whole experience has made me very skeptical of certain kinds of reports. I may be dumb as a rock but if I can't trust myself to get out of this mess, I don't trust myself to be the cause of it all either. — Valentinus

Hmm, more questions than answers I suppose.

I am a person who always goes North. It's who I am. Although I am tired of going North, so tired I cannot bear to live with myself, I cannot stop, because stopping just wouldn't be me, it's not in my nature. — unenlightened

There is a limit though. Where North do you go when you're already at the North Pole?

How can I change without being different? — unenlightened

I don't really know. I suppose it's the kind of difference that makes no real difference. Or rather to put it more bluntly, it's the kind of difference that is actually quite detrimental.

You guys and gals know what I'm really tired of?

This constant self doubting or criticism. That shit gets old faaaaast.

Rather than flail around in the quicksand of negativity, just sink and pass through. Why bother adding insult to one's injury? — Shamshir

Yes, it is a wallowsome situation. I've been sleeping in excess of 18h lately, and my head doesn't feel right.

In case anyone missed it:

https://www.quora.com/What-does-internalizing-the-externality-mean

Yes...

You internalize the negative externalities.

Easy does it Tim.

As they say, don't feed the troll.

Darn, you lot are quite unsatiable.

May we not delve into such a line of reasoning, that would assert something of the sort:

You, yeah you antinatalist! If life sucks so much, then why haven't you killed yourself yet? — Some dumbfuck

What do you mean - does not? — Shamshir

Where does the confusion lay about here?

Is this a hostage situation or what?

As a passing note, I do wonder how does the antinatalist not succumb to depression or suicidal tendencies if the world is really that terrible as to not procreate. Any thoughts about this?

Please expand.