I'm still not getting it. The dream horizon, just like the world horizon, can always be expanded, which in the dream context would be "expanding the limits of one's (dream) world" or having experience one has never had before. — Janus

Yes, the world horizon or what Wittgenstein calls the limits of one's world is expanded by the process of doubting. Now, how can a solipsist doubt if they live in a 'world' where everything is the same as the self?

Why would there be any more difficulty in "expanding the limits of one's world" than in having new experiences? — Janus

I don't understand. The point I am making can be thought analogously to a dream where a person self is in play and experiences are synthetically conjured up, in a solipsistic world that is finite. Does that make any sense?

Why would that be impossible for the solipsist? I mean wouldn't just the same restriction apply to new experiences? — Janus

Because epistemically, the solipsist is one and the same with the 'world'... I don't think there's much confusion about that statement, or not?

Renamed the thread. Hope others might find interest in it.

That works for me.
But i have to confess that I never got the solipsism thing. In any of its iterations.
I am probably the wrong person to ask. I simply do not understand the idea. — Valentinus

Well, to be honest this idea originated from my studies of Wittgenstein's Tractatus, mostly. In that the limits of my world are the limits of my language. This equates in some idealist sense, the world with the solipsist in a pantheistic sense. What results from this is that epistemically, one can expand the limits of one's world when confronted with doubt, which is impossible for a solipsist. Hence, doubt, contra certainty, is what allows one to overcome one's limitations in the world.

Hope that made sense.

I suppose then this thread title should read:

An epistemological proof of the external world.

Does that sound better?

Then I suppose you can do away with the Evil Demon and simply treat doubt as the main issue here. I suppose I can rewrite the conclusion as follows:

A solipsist can never doubt, and live in a world full of certainty.
Therefore, in the presence of doubt knowledge is possible.
Hence, doubt is proof that an external world exists.

Given that this is a philosophy forum, and I'm assuming that the OP is talking about philosophy, then I'm going to throw my two cents out there and state that if anyone is well acquainted with the major philosophers of the past, such as Wittgenstein (in my case), the vast majority of them would advocate not going to college to study philosophy.

Just a reality check. With a BA in anything but engineering or some hard science, you're not going to find a "great job" nowadays. My friend went to Berkley to study economics. He was shafted, coming as a transfer student, which aren't considered for internships due to no academic history with the institution rather than the people who got in straight after high school. Upon graduating and applying to something like 100 places, he never got a response. I suggested that he apply to the IRS or some government job, and given that he is a libertarian, he laughed. To be honest, he was above those jobs. So, he started his own business importing cheap supplements from China, and selling them here in the US, and was making close to 100k a month. Go figure.

And the whole, "meeting intelligent people at college" is a joke, unless you get into somewhere like Stanford, MIT, or Cal Tech, where the average IQ is above the norm, in some cases significantly.

You're a lawyer, so what you bitchen about?

What career advice would you provide? And with your answer, you may heal thyself. — Hanover

Anything but philosophy.

To go to college for a degree in philosophy, doesn't make sense in my mind.

But, you understand the issue?

These aren't last on a to-do list. To be fair though I think people differ from each other quite significantly so that no two to-do lists will ever match item for item. So, yes, some people have different items on their list but the point is the last item on any list isn't a choice at all. — TheMadFool

Would you ever consider suicide?

I don't know how to explain this but all cases of suicide are a last resort i.e. people who take their own lives are left with no choice. — TheMadFool

Not true, drugs, prostitutes, the "low-life" is always an option.

Thanks Wallows. I appreciate you appreciating it. — Brett

But, it's true in that philosophers should restrict themselves to descriptive measures, normative measures are best left to science and the like. Unless, we get some ubermensch or something.

That I’d be just as well off without it. — Brett

This is profound. In a manner more profound than what any philosopher has dared to say.

Kudos, for making such a statement!

Hmm, the force is strong in this one.

On face value I surmise that this makes sense. But, the issue is that suicide, even in a deterministic universe is still self-harm. You can't really get around this fact.

Thanks. What are more of your thoughts about why people commit suicide?

Over what, and has this resulted in suicidal ideation?

What makes you say that guilt is the primary motivation for committing suicide?

I think the amount of pain, stress, suffering an individual is going through is secondary in suicidal ideation. — NKBJ

Sorry, I don't quite understand this. Secondary as the root cause or a casual factor or confounding factor?

Note, I say believe, because some people seem to have nothing going for them, and they think their lives are worthwhile somehow, and others seem to have the whole world at their disposal, and yet kill themselves, because they lack some inspiration to take advantage of it. — NKBJ

But, wallowing is fine? :sweat:

In terms of mental health suicide risk factors, suicidal ideation is pretty key. — fdrake

What's the whole deal with suicidal idealization? I mean, psychologically what is driving the mind to generate these thoughts? Does this happen on a subconscious level? Freud called it the death desire or instinct; but, is that view held to this day?

Hence, pragmatics?

Coming to terms with having a defective brain has been years in the making. When he said this to me, however, my heart sunk and I felt like the biggest piece of shit. Now I realize he was just trying to get me to take my medication which I really do need. — Noah Te Stroete

Yeah, it's a bitter pill to swallow in that coming to terms with being fundamentally flawed in societies view. I don't know how to ease the pain, as it took me a good ~10 years to come to terms with my own diagnosis. The whole issue sucks; but, the sooner you can build up resilience to the fact that you have the disorder, the easier.

Hey Noah Te Stroete,

It's good that you're comfortable in sharing these life experiences and details. I'm a bit of a misanthrope, so your story is a quasi confirmation bias to my sentiment. Anyway, this thread is about you so I will try and help out as I can. It seems to me that you still have persistent paranoia despite taking some pretty heavy meds. I'm on Zyprexa, which is the most sedating of all the anti-psychotics out there; but, whatever works, right?

I suggest that if you still believe the government is out to get you or that your former employers are making stories to get you to kill yourself and all that crap, to try the most effective anti-psychotic out there, being Clozapine. I'm considering getting on it if I psychiatrist is willing to despite the side effects like agranulocytosis.

You sound like a tough guy who is handling his shit well. Have you started going to psychotherapy or such?

Now I am on disability for schizoaffective disorder bipolar type. I am trying to relax and not get too high or too low, but the harassment, spying, and stalking continues to this day. — Noah Te Stroete

Yeah, so give the Clozapine a whirl. If it doesn't work, then there's nothing more you can do, in my opinion.

I don’t know how to handle people anymore (if I ever did), and I thought I’d give this synopsis of my adulthood troubles in order to perhaps get some insight from the intelligent folk here at TPF. — Noah Te Stroete

Neither do I. I don't understand people, and I think philosophy is some form of coping mechanism for me. Just the other day I was at Subway, and undecided what kind of sandwich I wanted. I offered my place in line to an African-American postal worker, who for some reason took it the wrong way and called me a Neo-Nazi and suicide bomber as she left the store. Maybe my blood plasma levels of Zyprexa were low or she really meant what she said. African-Americans can be quite finicky. I'm on disability too, and you have to look on the bright side of being on it. First, it's free money. Second, it allows you time to think or (in my case) philosophize with my abundant spare time. Third, it's not that small of sum of money. I mean, in my case it's almost 1k a month. If you don't care about money it can be something extraordinary to live in the USA and derive such benefits.

I live with my mother, because she's the only person I trust and cares about me. My attitude as of late is gratitude, so I try and count my blessings. Are you into supplements? Bacopa Monnieri is cheap and combines well with antipsychotic medication. It is also a nootropic, which means you have better attention and keeps your mood in check. It also is pretty sedating the first time around when you take it so you might want to take it as a sleep aid.

Anyway, best regards.

Yeah, jogging my memory a bit, the socio-economic landscape of Australia has changed to such an extent, that elderly folk are having a hard time coping with it. I don't remember the details; but, maybe @Banno has a better idea of what's going on in the land of Oz.

Fact is (so I think) that most folks simply are never under the kind of stress the can bend a mind into irrationality or real desperation, and consequently never really know what suicide is about. — tim wood

I don't think suicide as being irrational. Some might even say that suicide is the result of an overly-rational mind.

Some material in case anyone is interested:

Why does Japan have such a high suicide rate? -BBC

Suicides among Japanese young people hit 30-year high - BBC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

But stress is unavoidable and apart of life. How do you walk away from stress?

Hi Corra.

What do you mean by walking away from the source of stress?

Possibly in today’s society anger management is important, but it’s not neurotic behaviour, it’s behaviour that’s now out of place in a highly populated environment. — Brett

“Ira furor brevis est” (Anger is a brief madness). Those that behave irrationally get rewarded for their efforts.

Depressing; but true.

All anger? — Brett

Not sure, the common textbook/generic idea about repressed emotion is manifest in depression. Deep depression is when anger is also repressed, or no influence of anger on one's situation in some state of affairs.

Looking for its function in that forest won’t be easy. — Brett

I'm thinking of instances where anger has been utilized by me or others in life. When I used to work jobs, I found that customers who get angry, get things their way. Our natural response to someone who gets angry is that they attain priority in maintaining a fragile (disrupted) equilibrium. Interesting, yes/no?

I have read on some psychology sites that anger is a masking emotion or an emotion that disallows us from confronting problems in life. Hence the OP?

Anger is a part of the range of our responses, as social mammals, to things that happen. It's a bit like asking about noses or skin. Are these healthy organs? It's almost a category error. — Coben

What do you mean by 'category error'? Maybe more 'redundant' or 'irrelevant'?

According to Anthony, a neurosis. There is some merit to this idea, that repressed emotions gives rise to neurotic behavior or thoughts. Though I think it's a bit of overgeneralizing here; but, the gist seems alright.

Anger, though, isn't an emotion as most think, but fully repressed emotion. — Anthony

Puzzling. I always thought anger was a primary emotion. Children get angry all the time if things don't go their way. I suspect anger to be an infantile response to some lack or desire unfulfilled.

So, what are examples of this? How does it happen? Is there a concrete change that you attribute to philosophy? Could a similar change have happen with literature or some kind of spirituality? — Coben

Well, philosophy is born out of existential questions like, who am I, or, what should I do, or, what's the right way to live. These questions fundamentally give rise to a desire to improve the world or improve the life of the would be Kantian or Stoic or Epicurean. Yes?

It tends to be men drawn to philosophy is the first thought that came to mind. — Coben

In the past, yes. But, that has changed quite a bit.

Where have you encountered this here? — Coben

Well, if you search around you can see this issue raised in terms of posing the material worth of philosophy, as if it had any. I won't name posters; but, some of our most prominent posters claim that philosophy is a waste of time or for the mad. Quite a paradoxical statement in my mind.