Yes, as a result of Karl Marx, approximately 120 million innocent people have died, several economies have failed or are failing, several bitter revolutionary uprisings have caused social and political unrest and needless human suffering, that's quite some society shaping. — whollyrolling

Therefore what can be said about philosophy? I think the conclusion is clear, it's a dangerous tool that can be wielded by people who have nefarious goals. Just off the top of my head think about the (perverted) philosophy of Nietzsche and the Nazis?

It can make sense to advocate what's in someone's best interest, even if that someone is against it. — S

So, you're telling me at one end that drugs are not bad (just an example); but, a lifestyle choice. On the other end, I'm asking you what utility do drugs have to an individual?

In my opinion, philosophy as a field of study is regressive and fundamentally useless to society, but discussion, debate and "philosophizing" can be useful or entertaining, possibly even enlightening, as a pastime for individuals or groups of people. — whollyrolling

Here I would disagree with you. Who would imagine that some bloke like Marx would shape not one, not two, but many societies in the world? Likewise, Comte or Locke had a profound influence on the constitution of the USA. Or Plato on the Islamic Republic.

It's scary what philosophy can influence.

You project your own experience on to others, overstepping your bounds. But you mean well. — S

No, I don't dare project my sentiment/feelings/emotions/experience onto others. Idiots do that. If you need a word for it, it might be a simple matter of caring for your welfare, which you abhor. But, as you said, I mean well.

I'm aware that they're not exactly harmless little drops of magic. But we were just taking demanding something of someone, and I certainly do not simply bow down to an imperative like, "Do away with the drugs". No, do away with the do away-ing: wasn't that sort of your message here? I don't want your cure. — S

To remain consistent in my theme here, I don't command you or have any authority over the choices you make in life. But, I have had some (extensive) experience with drugs myself, and nothing good ever came out of it. Just my two cents. Take it or leave it.

As far as the OP, I have two things to say. The first is that your opening statement is inaccurate. Philosophy, for thousands of years, has been a mental gymnastics domain for the wealthy, the educated intellectual, the sane, for the most part. The second thing I wanted to say ties into the first, and it is that philosophy is available to more common people and has far different utility than it did 3,000 years ago. It isn't for everyone, and it's never been for everyone. It isn't even for everyone who exhibits a strong desire to attempt to exercise some form of it. — whollyrolling

OK, so maybe I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater; but, if the aim is to become sharper at critical thinking, or better at rhetoric, then isn't all the rest of philosophy redundant.

I may be coming off a little harsh here in saying that nobody needs philosophy. But, when is enough enough?

As to how someone progresses from that dilemna i would say we can only control ourselves and i would say out in public or outside in the "real world" its best to say less rather than more when it comes to deep subjects. — christian2017

But, when a person engages in philosophy, then is that a waste of time?

I don't think philosophy has "no" value contrary to what a nihilist might say. If that were true then Nietzsche would have been the last philosopher, philosophy would have to offer.

Ludwig Wittgenstein has been a philosopher who has taught me that philosophy can be a detriment to the welfare of an individual, when that time spent dealing with mental abstractions and ethics, ought to be applied and put in practice. Hence, I find anyone who advocates philosophy as therapy, where nobody is asking for it in some sort of contradiction.

How does one progress from this dilemma?

If so, then I must be an exception. I do both more than the average person. — S

You're a smart guy, do away with the drugs. They're a dead end.

I think there's a difference between demanding something of someone, and showing them a pathway, or inviting someone to sit under a tree for a while? If they decline or walk a different path, then so be it. If someone doesn't need to be cured, then good for them. But perhaps they're under an illusion. Personally, I strive to treat myself where necessary. But it's important to treat yourself with medicine, and not poison. — S

But, is the unexamined life really not worth living? I could just as well live "an unexamined life" and be happy too. Keep in mind that all what our conversations amount to are elaborate and abstract sayings like "philosophy as therapy", "the unexamined life..." and so on.

Is this plain and simple mental masturbation?

What happened to philosophy as therapy? — S

Yeah, that's perhaps the issue here. Nobody asked to be cured. Nobody wants to be cured. So, why bother? The people who demand that others be cured are no different than evangelicals. Don't you think so too?

See my latest thread.

I'm full of it ain't I?

Anyway, stop wallowing and start shovelling, you are allowed to cry while you shovel. — unenlightened

Anyway, why should I? There's no authority on the matter, and I am entitled to my own peace and tranquility.

Does anyone set out with the life goal of being happy? — praxis

Presumably, philosophers do; but, the Hoi polloi think they ought to be ignored because of their idealism.

If most did, I doubt society would be as materialistic as is is. — praxis

What do you mean?

No one? — tim wood

It's an interesting question. Again, the Hoi polloi simply don't care for it. So, there's your problem. Until kings become philosophers or philosopher kings that is.

She's good.

Good with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. — S

Oh just make her fat and plumpy. She is a good cat to put up with someone like you...

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!! Aaaaahhh!! No!!! No!!! Stop it, please, I beg you!!! It's a sin!!!!! It's a sin, a sin, a sin, a sin!!!!" — S

Using Ludwig Van like that. Hahaha. How is your cat? Are you feeding her lots of good things or starving her?

Anyway, stop wallowing and start shovelling, you are allowed to cry while you shovel. — unenlightened

*Wallowing intensifies.*

But time spent worrying about whether or not one has any control over things is equally wasted. What is not time wasted - time on happy pills? — unenlightened

My dear sir, we are all drowning in shit, and most of it is other people's shit. Shuddup and grab a shovel. — unenlightened

You are mistaken if you don't think my depression isn't real. And, I am disabled, so I get to wallow in my own shit for a change. Sometimes my mother dumps her shit on me, and the depression is exacerbated and graceful wallowing ensues.

Ahh, so the issue reveals itself or is manifest. I know what's best for me, therefore, who is some bloke called Aristotle or Epictetus, all about. I don't fancy to listen to any authority on me and mine alone, happiness.

You need to seek help. xD

Set fire to it, my droog. — S

I wallow.

Time spent worrying about things one has no control over is time utterly wasted. — Tzeentch

But, our forum psychologist @unenlightened and the Swede Greta Thunberg are telling me that I must care about these things, or have some sort of Jesus complex, or some such matter.

The beatings will continue until moral improves. — Frank Apisa

:lol:

It's not my task to right the wrongs of the past. Climate change, AI taking my job, and all the other things that are there in the background was not part of my baggage when I was born.

Maybe I didn't read the fine print of my social contract?

:rofl:

Threaten him into being happy. I love it.

Cheer up, or I'll kick your bloody teeth in. You don't want me and Bitter Crank turning up at your door with baseball bats, do you, Wallows? — S

Have a bit of that ultra-violence, eh? What are they putting in your milk these days?

Happiness is not a pathless land. The path is so well worn most don’t need a guide. — praxis

What do you mean by that? Is this just stating the same truth that we are acquainted with? If so why are there so many unhappy people?

If you feel the need for that kind of support, or you’re just curious, then taste the different flavours before settling on one - some will be detrimental to your health if you judge one trying to help you as the only option you have. — I like sushi

I've taken logotherapy, Stoicism, and CBT as my claw and wrench towards personal and interpersonal issues.

But the situation in which these empirical phenomena are continually threatening to manifest should not be ignored. — darthbarracuda

No, not ignored. To borrow from Stoicism, they are things over which we have no control over, and thus should not be distressed about, at least until they arise. One can or ought to practice negative visualization and realize that they are part of life. What you're doing is presenting a negative visualization and overgeneralizing about their fatalistic impact on one's life. That's a cognitive distortion if I'm to borrow the term from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

A lot of thorny issues have come out of our short exchange. Do you think it should be therapy first, and then if that doesn't help seek medication. Or the route most traveled, as in medication first, and then therapy?

Sorry, I just took your response and kind of distorted it, my bad. No worries, I still think that happiness is a pathless land, just, as you say, is a highly individualistic goal.

Is it making you happy? — Bitter Crank

Not really; but, beats dying from dehydration. Well, I just love drinking water. Wallow wallow.

Get happy, Wallows, or else. — Bitter Crank

I am consuming some water, is that enough?

The goal to happiness requires unique roads that weave differently for us, and therefore in order to navigate through that path it is a journey we must figure out within us. If clinicians had the blueprint there would be no need for therapists. — Anaxagoras

So, (truth) or "happiness" is a pathless land. How, do you even relay this profound and shaking message (originally from Krishnamurti) to a struggling individual?

Of course nothing he said is worth even thinking about! Veh ist mir! No one can help me. No one will help me! — tim wood

Haha. I interpret your post in good spirits.

It's a question of thinking through just what happiness is. — tim wood

Well, like I said, there's no authority on being happy here in the West. So, I see that as the primary issue worth discussing here.

Likewise one wants to be happy iff one is unhappy. — unenlightened

This suggests happiness in being unhappy. — Hanover

Well, unenlightened-san spelled it out for me and you, it seems.

I bet the AMA will go batshit over this proposal.

Hehe, there are two parts of me clashing with this idea. A cognitive dissonance if you will.

One part says: "There is no authority on happiness."
Another: "Then why ain't I already happy as can be?"

"The move to grant psychologists prescriptive authority, Sammons said,“ takes place in the context of a vast transformation in American health care, an extraordinary rate of change in the scope of practice of any nonphysician provider.”

Sammons went on to note that “our mental health system, as Dr. Steckler will talk about in a few moments, is so badly broken. We believe that prescriptive authority will help to rectify this really tragic situation for many Americans.” — Anaxagoras

Awesome. I don't want to fork out 500 USD for an initial visit and then pay 100 for prescription refills from a defunct system.

Hope this gets done.