@Banno, I'm thinking about the fly being lead out of the bottle. Have you forsaken this task?

Do you see how this relates to the OP? — Banno

I do. But, haven't I already negated that with this noetic or Platonic realization?

Yeah, I don't subscribe to nominalaism, either in pure form or that of the TLP. It doesn't jive with how we use language in reality.

What happened to the TLP reading thread? — Banno

It died... :death: :flower:

Post something if you want. We got stuck on completing propositions 2.5-3.0

A useful way to think of the difference between TLP and PI is to observe that TLP restricts itself to statements. As such it cannot be taken as complete. — Banno

Statements are good. Nice and short and without ambiguity. Is that the thing Wittgenstein left out in addressing language, that is 'ambiguity', 'vagueness', and uncertainty?

PI talks of commands and questions and such, and hence talks of ways of doing things, ways of living. — Banno

Sure, but people don't live by commands, unfortunately, otherwise ethics would be solved with the ten commandments already.

We don't really have needs. We just have likes. — Michael Ossipoff

How is that possible?

Have another look at PI, but instead of looking at what is said, look at how it is said. It's not just a set of ideas, but a way of approaching philosophical questions. — Banno

Admittedly, I've been fixating on the Tractatus. So, what went wrong in the TLP?

You want a list?

That's one thing it can't do. — Banno

Then give me a general layout, and dumb it down a lot for my simple mind.

Thanks!

Not at all - it is "how does one do philosophy well?" It's about working out what philosophy can do, and what it can't. — Banno

So, what can philosophy do, and what it cannot?

The Unity of Philosophical Experience, Etienne Gilson — Wayfarer

Thanks, will look into that one.

Standard quantum mechanics says that while observations may be random, systems that are unobserved develop in an entirely deterministic way. — Dfpolis

What about infinite degrees of freedom, or treating a photon as an observer? Do you subscribe to MWI or believe the wavefunction collapses?

"the mind"? Singular?

That strikes me as odd. — Banno

How so, I'm not following you here.

I suppose forming a meta-narrative for philosophy is an individual effort. I bought what I was looking for though so thanks for the info.

Will Durant, Fred Coplestone, others. Perhaps not what you mean by "dialectical." No doubt it can be done; perhaps you're the man to do it! — tim wood

Just bought Copelsone's volumes 4-9 of historical philosophy. I'll be occupied for a while. Ouch, my wallet!

Copleston has an excellent history if you're feeling like taking a large undertaking. It's long. But then, so is the history of philosophy. — Moliere

Bingo, thanks!

But it's not clear to me you even know what you're asking. — tim wood

It's all there for the asking, which causes me to think that what you're asking for is not what you want. — tim wood

I'm asking for a development in philosophy seen through the eyes of a dialectical philosopher. If you have any in mind, or think that it is possible to describe the entirety of the thought of previous philosophers through a dialectical method, please let me know.

I prefer the historical method.

But maybe that's a bit misleading, because there are historical methods -- it's not an all-encompassing sort of discipline, but one which teases out the varied and conflicting narratives that arise in the passing of events. I tend to think that this is actually its strength; you get a feel for the many variances that are at play in reading conflicting accounts, and you get a sense for how much of it is a narrative more than How Things Actually Are. — Moliere

Yes, I am interested in books that present philosophy as a dialectical method progressing from Plato, to Aristotle, and so forth. Are there any books like that?

What you see in this hospital are the most intractable, chronic cases, but if you look at the world via a news ap, you will see at once that not merely philosophy, but even common sense has been largely eradicated. — unenlightened

Amen, another one of those pieces of gems from unenthlightened-san.

But it's not as if a philosopher has a choice, any more than a cancer patient. Proper medication and good personal practices will help, but there is always the chance that some philosophical problem or other will grab at you, and drag you back in. — Banno

So, then, the question becomes, how does one abandon philosophy? I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. It seems like a feature of the mind to be philosophical, and hence the malaise? I suppose time remedies that problem to some significant extent.

My thoughts about dreams are that this is a good one. :smile: — Jake

Yeah, I did find that dream to be of interest to me. I liked the fact that I was going somewhere. Which leads me to believe that structural changes in one's life are portrayed in dreams often, and that has significance to an individual.

Volunteer work. It’ll create a cognitive dissonance in your mind and force you to like people. — praxis

I'm not sure, I'm ready for that. But, seems logical. But, then I don't know how to deal with negative motivations as in wanting to stay at home and do nothing or such. Part of it is depression and some other maladies.

Weed high in CBD is good for insomnia, btw. — praxis

This. CBD has helped me in the past. And anything cannabinoid seems to help with Chrones disease or gastrointestinal issues.

I'm not sure there is much point to living if one can't sleep or eat enough. — Nils Loc

I hear you. I can't fathom not sleeping well. Sleep is the only thing that entertains me sufficiently enough in life. Again, back to my post on the profoundness of dreams.

But, there are remedies for that. As I mentioned lavender extract is one option, another is Ativan or some benzo to quell the mind for a period of time, Xanax comes to mind. But, those are drugs that are prone to habitualization. I guess Magnolia extract can be of use here also. Melatonin is another one for better sleep. I don't entirely know how to adjust your circadian rhythm. Some other options are available; but, not really practical. Lyrica helps me get through the day sometimes.

Anyway, keep on living until you find some temporary solution. Suicide is too much for me to fathom.

So, you agree with this attitude or should it be changed through philosophy? But, that's like trying to pull on a rug you stand on.

What more would you expect, than that folk want their wants, need their needs? — Banno

That's just a tautology. You've said nothing of import.

So, quietism it is then.

You lost me. — Banno

I'm talking about attitudes formed through philosophy. Much of it seems like rationalizations of some Humean sort, where the passions dictate reason, and reason is only instrumental in realizing wants and needs.

Well, that's not quite right. Once, to become a school teacher, but that remission was broken after a few years; and again during the second great war, when he went off cleaning hospitals. Remission, not cure. — Banno

But, do you really believe that philosophy is the result of an overly obsessive or compulsive mind? I mean, does philosophy seem to you as futile in living life? Many of the questions of philosophy are systematically inchoate. Take the problem of the criterion, it's insolvable in my mind. So, we frantically search for answers to ill-formed questions, per Wittgenstein.

Is quietism the only solution or ultimate attitude that one must profess after dealing with philosophy?

Wittgenstein would tell his philosophy students to go do something useful. — Banno

True that, yet he never abandoned philosophy in his entire life. At one point he thought he solved all the problems of philosophy with the Tractatus Logico Philosophicus (TLP). But, his mind was convinced it was incomplete and wrote the Philosophical Investigations (PI) as an addon to the TLP. What went wrong with the TLP was that it assumed facts as mind-dependent, in my view.

What's that? — Banno

It's an attitude. How do you confront a self-serving and uninhibited attitude towards the world? Or you can treat it as a deep mood. What good has come out of it?

What rules is what you do instead of philosophising. — Banno

Can you expand on that? I feel that a reference to Wittgenstein is necessary here.

Here's the link... I may not have quoted it verbatim. — Banno

Yeah, so philosophical pessimism is the cancer of philosophy?

Had suicidal panic at the beginning of this year. — Nils Loc

Damm. What makes you want to commit suicide?

Thought about constructing a Debreather (single chamber carbon dioxide scrubber) as a sort of comfort that I'd have the option of a painless exit. — Nils Loc

That's scary, but I'd use benzos with alcohol. Dreamless sleep.

Have taken up Yoga and I'm pretty amazed at how effective it is when I'm stressed out. — Nils Loc

Check out something called Silexan on Amazon. It's great for anxiety and dirt cheap. I'm considering switching my antidepressant to Viibryd due to its potent action on 5-HT1A receptors. Try it at least. It won't hurt you.

Best regards!

Note that last sentence; there is no cure. — Banno

Therefore what? Nihilism rules then or solipsistic relativism?

And can you provide a link or PDF to that excerpt?

Indeed. It seems to me that all this is leading to some form of nihilism.

So, thinking allowed a bit more about this. I find that there needs to be some narrative to philosophy. If that narrative is dictated by negativeistic pessimism, then philosophy has failed as a form of therapy. The individual concerned with forming an identity through philosophy is misguided by pessimism.

Therefore, how do you create a narrative in philosophy that encompasses all the thoughts of different philosophers? Can that be done in any shape, manner, or form?

I would have thought that it was obvious. — Sir2u

Not quite there yet. Give me some time and I might catch the ball.

Oh, no; that won't work out well. — Bitter Crank

Why not? Maybe some people enjoy wallowing in a self-absorbed manner? The temptation to wallow is uninhibited so, there's really no deterrent to the art of philosophical pessimism, and that makes it all the more dangerous or detrimental to positive philosophy?

philosophy optimism — Sir2u

What's that?

And just which topics might those be? — Sir2u

Every topic on this forum, I suppose.

I guess that there is a possibility that it is so, but what do you base this pronouncement on? — Sir2u

Excessive self-reflection and the issue that philosophy must deal with being philosophical pessimism. How to deal with philosophical pessimism could be a great topic to start. It's an issue because it is a dysphoria of the art of philosophy.

I just had a week off. Does that count? — Banno

Kudos to you Banno. Your our forum therapist right next to @unenlightened.

Would philosophy not be the disorder and this forum the therapist's office? — Sir2u

I'm acutely aware of this fact and feel compelled to express my satisfaction with self-absorbed topics of my interest. Others would agree.

You did have that, past tense. — Jake

:halo:

It's ok to endlessly post. Just keep in my mind that you're trying to engage readers in a story which has no arc, a strategy which is likely to lead to having no readers. That said, the Internet is a big place. — Jake

Yeah; but, I have you to cheer me up with some Skinnerian behaviorism. *smiles*