Why would teaching people to talk coherently be negative? I mean... you could try to raise a kid without language and just let him garble at things instead of speaking...but that would be tantamount to child abuse. How's he going to get along in life? Unless you want to condemn him to live as a hermit among people, language is a must. — NKBJ

Well, there are some parts of learning a language game that might be positive and where it might be negative. Obviously, if we're talking about teaching babies or young children how to operate or learn a language without an issue, then that's not a negative. My sentiment was more geared towards issues like teaching young adults about how to perceive the world, where indoctrination can occur.

Glad that got resolved without a hiccup. You seem to know what you want and where you want to be. I wouldn't call it an existential crisis; but, perhaps a need for more reflection in your life. If the issue resurfaces you can always engage in philosophy without a problem.

Overthinking about what exactly? Just things in general?

I have the feeling there is a sub-text game here. — Bitter Crank

Oh, you should know me by now, I talk without inhibition and try without facetiousness. OK, I am whimsical, but, that's about as bad as I get, a little wallowing here and there, but that's about it...

Anyway,

We are designed to pick up the rules of language. It starts very early on, and we just learn the rules. Are we talking about how we learn language? Or are we talking about screwy games some people play with language? — Bitter Crank

About how misunderstanding arises, would be a good way of putting it?

Playing word games (of the good sort and the deviously bad sort) is a human thing, and little children learn how to do both, along with simultaneously learning Polish, Mandarin Chinese, and Old English -- if they happen to live in a strange time zone. We all prefer that people just say what they mean and mean what they say. Unless, of course, what they mean and say is really uncomplimentary and altogether too clearly expressed. Save us from crystal clear criticism. — Bitter Crank

One such language game that impressed me and continues to impress me is what Rumsfeld said about there being known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. After reading it three times it sounds like gibberish; but, yeah the guy was smart, I guess is how you can put it.

So, Monsieur Posty McPostface, just what language game are you playing here? Are you trying to achieve some devious end by asking unpleasant questions under the cover of Herr Wittgenstein, about whom I know next to nothing? — Bitter Crank

Oh, take the topic and do what you want with it, we are playing language games after all!

I don't know, some people get the rules on their own and some don't and need extra guidance. Obviously, we won't be reinventing the wheel all by ourselves because that would be inefficient. But, for sake of performative utility, 'how?'

What is it with you Americans and American Transcendentalism? Maturity then becomes a never ending goal in the land of Peter Pan.

I would say that maturity is an undeveloped concept in the realm of politics, if politics is what you want to talk about. In many instances it is assumed, and has been perpetuated in the US by having a family, college degree, and money in a bank account. Political correctness has also been a stone on which for many years maturity was masked under.

I don't know, I think Trump is just one of the demagogues of our time that has a childlike mentality or as some have called him a 'manchild'. One feels helpless when confronted with the prospect of having such a fool govern the country.

C'est la vie?

The discussion has degenerated into a political talk about Trump; but, I still wanted to talk about 'maturity' in isolation. What is it that makes a person mature? For some odd reason, Mark Twain comes to my mind about this issue. He seemed to have the issue of 'maturity' prominently in mind during his lifetime following politics.

Well, I have a small update to offer as a result of my suffering that I self induced.

I have to say that suffering might not be inherently meaningful; but, it sure makes life all the more worthwhile once it is over. Hence, my nagging suspicion that if one can endure suffering of whatever magnitude or degree, then life does become more meaningful in some regards. In my case it resulted in appreciating life more than usual.

I have to say that my suffering is also self inflicted in many ways. I have (had) an addiction to stimulant drugs to get me up and going, it has also been a form of self medicating ADD. Whenever I have indulged in stimulant drugs, there has always been a price to pay. Meaning, that all that dopamine gets depleted and then you end up strung out.

Now, the important question that I am asking myself is why do I engage in this self destructive behavior constantly? This must have been the n'th time I have bought some stuff online and taken it for a while and then suffered the consequences. In some sadistic or strange sense, I keep on punishing myself by this reckless and idiotic behavior. I have squandered my money, dropped out of college, and live hopelessly because of this. I don't mean to complain; but, I deserve my suffering in some sense, and that realization is quite important to me.

I'm already on powerful medication. Either it's still not working or my depression is getting worse. Though, I doubt my depression is getting worse. I've tried cocktails of various drugs and have even tried entheogens once, which gave me psychosis. I have thought about suicide sometimes; but, I don't think I'll ever do it due to not wanting my mother to go through grief. I also doubt I would ever have the courage to do it.

Trying to think positive, I don't have any immediate suffering or any reason to suffer. I have someone that cares about me, and that's all I think that really matters? I'm just tired of suffering or wallowing in my misery.

I wish I had something meaningful to say. I've been going through you name it, and it's no fun. I really wish things would get easier, as I thought they would with time; but, the depression still lingers and haunts me.

I'm lucky to have a caring mother, though. Man, it really sucks to complain so much, and God knows I do it a lot. Such misery.

OK, so I think blue denotes factual information from what I gather.

What does this all say about me? Wondering.

One neuroticism that has emerged from this analysis is when I use green to explain meaningful content to myself, I would sometimes end the sentence or thought with changing the color to red, as if I were pointing out something of such importance that it would merit the status of a definition or name of a definition.

For anyone who has ever worked for government, it is known that the level of competency required to create such a conspiracy is beyond that of virtually any government – democratic or otherwise. — Tom Quiggen

Oh, right, the Post Office did it! I think it's clear that the military could only undertake such an operation, which the traces of nano-thermite found all around the Twin Towers and building 7, which isn't a walk in the park to make, and is rather made in high-tech defence contractor laboratories.

3. The 9/11 conspiracy theory assumes that the rank and file worker in government who helped carry out the conspiracy would tolerate and assist in the mass murder of their fellow citizens. This might be a fair criticism of senior political leaders in some states, but it is a slanderous accusation for the vast majority of government workers in democratic states. — Tom Quiggen

So, when Noam Chomsky says that there's something called manufactured consent going on daily in the mass media, does that make him a conspiracy theorist?

In addition to these general guidelines, it is useful to keep the principle of Occam’s razor in mind when doing analysis on major events: the simplest solution is usually the correct one. If a large airplane full of jet fuel crashes into an extraordinarily tall building at a high rate of speed, then it was probably the airplane that caused the building to fall, not a cabal of unseen secretive government operatives who committed a mass murder against their own citizens. — Tom Quiggen

Thing is, that this isn't the first instance of a false flag attack to ever happen in history. Governments have shown time and time again that their intentions don't always align with the interest of the public. So, yeah you can tend to wish in hodge podge beliefs that the government is full of incompetent idiots, or very moral and astute citizens that always want the public good. If so, then you might have a great moral compass; but, are not entirely aware of the harm and atrocities that can happen when power is vested in the wrong group of individuals.

As I mentioned, there was a documentary that was broadcast a long time ago - I can't recall when, it might have been ten years ago. The temperatures triggered by massive amounts of jet fuel in adjacent buildings caused a fire sufficiently intense to melt the steel. — Wayfarer

I ask you to spend 30 or so minutes and see an interview of an architect now representing almost 3,000 professional architects and engineers on C-Span that aired fairly recently. He does a searing analysis on the matter, and there's isn't much to if, and or but in the matter.

It's in the post above. I won't provide links as to not make the administrators too angry.

The thing about 9/11 is that the thing is so overt and out in the open that there's a lot of information to examine based on the event. No single person was killed, the motive unclear, and the criminal killed immediately or such matters. Here's the thing, there's actual science to be examined on the event based on the reports made by the agencies tasked with undertaking the investigation. In the case of 9/11 there's a lot of unanswered questions in regards to how a modern steel framed building could have collapsed symmetrically and at free fall speed, with all the steel columns supporting the building turning into cheese. The official account of how the building fell, due to office fires can in no way accommodate how or in the manner in which the building fell, which is claimed to be due to office fires.

Youtube "C-Span, Richard Gage" if your interested in a serious account from a scientific perspective as to how the building actually would have had to be altered, or put more simply, destroyed due to controlled demolition to account for the manner in which the building appears to have fallen.

I'm not going to risk embarking on a public discussion due to not wanting to offend the admins; but I would be quite interested in your analysis of how building 7 fell in a PM conversation if you will. With your permission I will proceed to just asking how you think that building fell?

Then there was just a hint of 9/11 conspiracy nonsense. — Wayfarer

I'm aware that the promoters of this forum frown upon it; but, the manner in which people respond to "beliefs that they do not share" or otherwise pejoratively called "conspiracy theories" leaves much to be desired. I'm not saying that all conspiracy theories merit consideration and analysis or even suspension of disbelief; but, in some cases where professionals, educated in the arts of how buildings are built with 20-30+ years of experience and with no ulterior motive to fulfill, I mean actual architects and engineers claiming that the story isn't so clear cut as the official narrative would explain, then that merits some further consideration than calling the whole thing a "conspiracy theory" and dismissing it based on that label as crackpottery or nuttiness.

Probably the same organisation that put the explosives in the Twin Towers — Wayfarer

Oh, common office fires brought all three buildings down on the same day, is that so hard to believe?

Well, that's an interpretation, you know? Some are more acknowledged by others and some aren't.

So, God might not be all Good, is that what you are suggesting? There are plenty of interpretations and that tends to get brought up quite often with the problem of evil (suffering).

Misogynism, Terroism and Genocide perfect examples for the world of the devout. — charleton

I don't believe God should be all loving if you've seen suffering. The cognitive dissonance gets too real. A more cold and aloof God always made better sense to me. Even a spiteful one at that.

I still prefer the God of the Old Testament. You know keeping it real and all?

Just a fantastic exemplification of Job and human suffering presented below. Well, worth the short hour to listen to this gem:

The only contestion I have with Plato's sentiment being swept around here is the authoritarian tone it gave governments to meddle and get involved in their lives. We've seen how that ended with totalitarian Germany and Soviet Russia. But, then there's China that has to leave someone scratching their head. Is it possible for an elite to be able to manage (in this case central management) the welfare of a billion plus people? It would surprisingly seem so, and lends to the stronger readings of Plato's Republic. It's also the most efficient form of governance possible, in that Platonic perfectionist sense.

Perhaps people, even uneducated ones, may have some notion of the interests of themselves and their communities. And even educated people can be misled. Knowledge is distinct from wisdom. — Cuthbert

Well, this is just Plato 101; but, you would know that Plato held the ignorant and uneducated in contempt. At least at the time, many ignorant and uneducated people we're in government in his view. Nowadays, we seem to have adopted Plato's attitude towards all matters regarding statecraft. Yeah, sometimes we get the demagogues and populists in power; but, on average it seems like branches of government weed out the incorrigible and uneducated.

Yes, but what if it we're given to the intellectuals who percieve the rampant exploitation of belief of the masses ongoing already? Would there be no moral justification then?

Yeah, but I want an easy life, not one constrained by a multitude of Maxim's.

Job sure had some good friends, didn't he?

There is also no evidence that IQ testing reveals any innate intelligence, because no one has yet to devise any question for an IQ test that does not depend on prior learning. — LD Saunders

This is a strong argument to make. I don't think it's entirely true though. But, since IQ tests have little to no predictive power on anything else than education, then what's the point then? We already discriminate in the West based on the innate ability of some children who get into gifted programs or magnet schools.

Although, there is some merit to Murry's book. One standard deviation is equivalent to an increase in productivity by 1.5... So, as long as you guide the gifted child through the whole process of education, then your set.

But, I don't see the value in trying to produce more intelligent people, (yeah, eugenics existed in the US also) but rather focus on character traits which are more predictive and malleable on/of educational and economic success.

Hey, if you start up something, I'd love to invest in whatever you are able to create.

I haven't been approved by Gemini for some reason. Taking a long time.

Entrepreneurism is not an option for someone without strong self-confidence and drive. Working for a company run by others doing what you are good at is a better option for those of us who are not as dynamic as you perhaps are. It's naive to be recommending it to PMcP, who is questioning whether or not he even has a self. — T Clark

The thing about the internet is that there's so much opportunity to be realized just from sitting at home. I have a friend whom I gave the idea to start a supplement company with buying the supplements penny cheap from China (can be done through Alibaba) and outsourcing the packaging and shipping. It's really a one-man job and doesn't require too much oversight once you get the thing going. Last I spoke with him, he was making 50k a month sitting at home and just playing with himself. He's still on the 10'th page of Google search, so there's A LOT of more potential for growth. He has invited me to move with him to Las Vegas due to cheaper living costs and lower taxes and pay for my rent and living expenses and a good wage for doing nothing really. The only reason I haven't jumped on the wagon is that my mother is going through a division of joint assets with my cold and aloof father. Once the whole thing is settled and ends with a happy ending, then I will most likely move over there to be more independent and self-sufficient rather than living on disability and supplementing my income from a guy who does the same thing and makes 400k a month. So, there is hope and I don't feel depressed these days by a wide margin.

Well, sounds like your father had a very hard life and worked very hard. So who can really blame such a man - you know, at some point you get tired of all the days working from morning to night - I'm speculating but maybe he just wanted to enjoy the prostitutes and these things that he didn't have access to when he was young, no? I mean when you work super hard like that, at some point the stress certainly gets to you. I imagine that at some point the desire to enjoy those things that you foregone when you were young certainly comes up. — Agustino

The man is a difficult case to analyze from my perspective, as I'm obviously biased. I grew up with the image of a hard-working person who suffered arrhythmia from his job and cared for us. Then you move to another part of the world, where he was from, and you see (or in my case didn't see, as he was in the "library" all the time) a completely different type of behaviour. I'm befuddled.

To put it more plainly, he was an excellent actor hiding something from everyone to see. What that this is or was is a mystery and will remain a mystery to me.

Ok, enough ruminating for one day...

Thanks!

Yes, there's the mentality over there to view people as symptoms or in stronger cases pathologic problems, and not view them as humans. I don't know how or why (given that Eastern European countries produce some of the best doctors and medical professionals, the education there is really up there, as I tried studying medicine myself during my stay there) this sentiment emerged; but, it's a devastating way to view a child let alone a person, as a human being.

And now a teaser designed to solicit additional facts. — Hanover

Just plenty of psychological abuse based on calling my mother schizophrenic, bipolar, nervous, anxious, bla bla bla. You get the point. Somehow, I ended up, by association, with a similar attitude to my problems.

Me: Dad, why?
Dad: Your schizophrenic, so keep quiet.

You're telling me that your father found comfort in prostitutes and that was his demise? I suppose that could be, knowing little of Russian culture, but I still smell alcohol in this story. — Hanover

Yes, and whatever else being around prostitutes entails. Keep in mind that as a dentist there's easy access to a lot of opioid-based pain medication (which I won't rule out). My father is too smart to indulge in alcohol, and combined with his own father's indulgence in that substance and the plethora of abuse from what I heard happened due to this, then there isn't much in terms of psychological comfort to be had from said substance from his perspective.

Did I mention how much gaslighting was involved in all this? The gaslighting was immense.

I feel as though I have said enough. Wallows some more.

Prostitution... His father was an alcoholic, so go figure. You'll think I'm loony but the Russian mob was involved in all this. My mother attests to this.