Yes. I very much agree with that.

I especially agree with the neuroscience angle. There is very interesting work done in the field no doubt about that, but certain philosophers and scientist working in this area claim much more than is warranted from the evidence.

I don't think you can hope to explain mental processes if you leave out psychology and epistemology altogether. We speak and experience beautiful sunsets, horrific massacres, wonderful music and the like, not of the V4 cortex or the amygdala doing something which plays a part in our perception of the world.

These are just two different sets of phenomena, which are linked in a way we don't understand.

It is basically not wanting to deal with a massive portion of reality.

I wonder to what extent the "I' is able to reflect upon it itself? — Jack Cummins

I suspect that this depends on how well we can articulate such a phenomenon of reflection. So perhaps you'd need some kind of phenomenology that may provide a framework on how to think about these things. Or maybe we can't say much about it, which wouldn't be surprising.

What are thoughts comprised of, or composed from, and can they be reduced to matter'? — Jack Cummins

Thoughts are matter. That is, they form part of the most immediate aspect of matter we can recognize to any degree, which is our experience and the thoughts we may have. This idea of "dead and passive" matter is a mistake, when we observe the world, we filter all the things out "there", including "dead matter", through the live process of matter we call experience.

But there's no reduction here, if it's all physical stuff. It can't be framed this way, I don't think.

At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose we are aware to some degree that it "I" that is having thoughts, not thoughts arising out of no one. So I'd think we'd need to have a subject of experience which is distinct and not identical to the experience of having thoughts.

Trivially, it could be said that without conscious experience, we would have no thoughts. But I don't know what these thoughts say about consciousness, aside from the apparent fact that they are part if it.

They do get assistance and funding from the outside and although this conflict likely increases the assistance, naturally the expenses are spiralling in such a conflict too. — ssu

Some weapons - I believe - used to get in via Rafah, but ever since the Muslim Brotherhood was kicked out, the military regime in Egypt has been quite hostile to Gaza.

Yet Hamas isn't funded by Iran anymore, I think. — ssu

I don't know either. I believe Hezbollah may still receive support from Iran, but I doubt Hezbollah would get involved in this matter now.

It plays to the hardliners in the government, which is most of them, Hamas is a gift to them, because they have a "target" to go after. Yet this target is never defeated. But then they continue to bomb them. If Gaza did not have Hamas, Israel would have to make up a new enemy.



World opinion have been moving against Israel for about 10 years or so. An although world opinion is with Palestine, states are not. And if states don't get involved, the massacre will continue. Hamas knows this, but they also wanted to let the people in the West Bank know that they're in the occupation together.

But no, I doubt Hamas has world opinion in mind. They're also going through Covid, and the hospitals in Gaza are on the brink, they can't do more.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/16/netanyahu-says-gaza-bombing-to-continue-in-full-force

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the deadly bombing of the Gaza Strip would continue despite an international outcry and efforts to broker a ceasefire.

In a televised address on Sunday, Netanyahu said the Israeli air raids were continuing at “full-force” and would “take time”, adding that his country “wants to levy a heavy price” from Gaza’s Hamas rulers.

Israeli air raids on Gaza City flattened three buildings and killed at least 42 people early on Sunday, health authorities in Gaza said."

This is thankfully because of the blockade. — BitconnectCarlos

But if we agreed that prior to settlement expansion Israel was safer, why do you think ending the blockade means they'll destroy Israel? Yes they're furious, with good reason, but they wouldn't want Gaza to disappear off the face of the Earth.

If they don't take precautions to conduct their military activities away from their civilians then they are partly liable in the event of response attacks. Imagine you're a military commander, how would you respond if someone was launching rockets out of an enemy hospital? Are they just safe? — BitconnectCarlos

Again, where do they go? They barely have room to defend themselves, unless they make themselves visible on the beach or in the border. That's suicide.

Or they can just be humilated time and time and time again. I'm sure no Jew would want the same thing done to them and not except a reaction.

Doesn't Israel have snipers and intel on Gaza? I'm sure they could be much less brutal. A large part of this is just nationalism gone nuts.

Yes -- to say nothing of the decades-long brutal occupation. Apologists for Israel are incapable of seeing the reality. Anything Israel does is defensive, there's no power imbalance (and if there is it is somehow irrelevant), it's all about the "right to exist," etc. No sense in wasting time trying to convince them otherwise. — Xtrix

Totally agree. We've learned from the same man a good deal. And others too, including women of course.

Since he's living in the country, I try to reduce as much emotion as possible, to see if we can at least agree on some basic things.

I'm afraid Carlos would be what is "the left" in Israeli, meaning people not like him are much further to the right. That's not good for them, if you include the Samson option, it's literally bad for the whole world.

I don't think we'll change minds. I won't change my posts or tone, but who knows? Others here have said pretty spine chilling things. It's madness.

Well, you live there. It's a small country.

If Hamas is planning to fight, what, they should all line up in the beach, so they could be killed and Gaza loses all defense they have?

So the idea here would be take all the possible humiliation you can get, and be happy we let you live in pile of dirt? There's only so much people can stand after 50 years of occupation, surely you can see that, even if you disagree with them on all else...

They don't have anywhere near the sophisticated weaponry that could shoot at tanks, much less aircraft.

In any case, there is nowhere near any proportionality in the violence committed. It's a total massacre.

As a response to what happened in the Al-Aqsa mosque.

X is stealing food, electricity and water from Y. Preventing food and aid from coming in is akin to stealing.

Ok. Let me try to simplify this, see if we get somewhere.

If somebody, X, comes up to you and steals your wallet or hits you that's an assault. I think it is quite reasonable to fight back against X. Such an act can be called "defense", I think, without much controversy.

Now suppose that X steals your wallet, your watch and other such possessions in a violent manner. This is still an assault. Ok. You fight back maybe you throw a punch or push him back. But then the person comes with a gun shoots your leg and when you hit back, he gets furious and says he is defending himself from you.

Is X justified in saying he is defending himself from you? I think in such a scenario, whatever else X says, he is wrong to say that he is using defense.

How would you modify such a scenario?

We don't understand how we move a finger. We just move it.

So if you now go "up" to things as complicated as emotions and music, our understanding is almost zero. We have no clue.

It's not clear how emotions interact with a mind like ours. You can say that about the soul if you want, but it amounts to saying something like "This phenomenon S, is energy for this thing we have mind".

I don't know what that means.

I think you'll need a more clear definition or idea of what a soul could be, and how such a thing could possibly be energy for the mind.

Just watched a good interview with Gideon Levy live.

I'll put a link here once it's available.

That's why we're here and not some other place, to ask questions and argue about stuff! :cool:

I think we use words such as "soul", "spirit" and the like to attempt to highlight one or another aspect of the mental. Thus you can say "that got to my soul", "that's a spiritual experience", etc. I don't think "soul", "spirit" and so on pick out independent aspects of the world.

If I had to make up a definition of soul, it would be something like the emotive aspect of something touching my experience in a specific way. So I'd say a song reaches my soul, because it interacts with me in a very specific way. I would not say that a song reached my mind. While strictly true, it's a strange statement to make.

But, I could be quite wrong about all of this.

No rebuttal? :joke:

Sure thing. Hope you find a satisfying answer.

Mona Lisas & Mad Hatters - Elton John

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRgYfQ48A0

I simply meant to say that whatever spirit is, falls under the category of mind. Spirit is another aspect of what we broadly consider the mental.

And no, I do not think mind is an illusion at all. Mind is the most immediately known feature of existence we have as sentient creatures.

A question in the lyrics of a song.

:cool:

Apologies for the late reply, have been away. (and in all honesty somewhat trepid about getting myself involved in a 28 page Israel thread...) — coolazice

No need to read it actually.

Only thing required is curiosity and/or interest. ;)

"The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters." — Antonio Gramsci

Nice line. And correct, we're living in quite unique times, all over the world...

So whats your short answer to define Spirit? — dimosthenis9

Mind-stuff.

I'm done with you, you're not speaking in good faith.

Go argue your Zionist lunacies with someone else.

We are talking about today, which is what matters.

After the 70's it's impossible for Israel to be destroyed. Nor would the US or the EU ever allow it.

What you think that Israel as last resort for not giving up land they are stealing should start WWIII!?!?

There are literally no words to describe such a consideration. Nothing.

It does not. Repeating this claim does not make it true.

There is no existential threat for Israel.

Created by Hamas killing its opponents and firing rockets into Israel.

Do you want Hamas to be allowed in to Israel to directly massacre the Jews? — Andrew4Handel

Did I say this?

On the other hand, killing people in an open air prison is perfectly fine for you.

But Hamas. Hamas. Yeah, those Hamas fighter jets and bunker bombs are an existential threat...

Has anyone destroyed your whole neighborhood, limited your caloric intake and prevent you from leaving an open air prison?

Which is a case in point of supreme lunacy.

Total insanity and evil.

Israel need psychiatric treatment. This is paranoia on steroids.

But you don't recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation trying to destroy them or the previous attacks on Israel by it's neighbours an effort to destroy them? Israel won it's territory like most countries in a war it did not instigate. — Andrew4Handel

I recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization which is a flea against the massive terror organization that is the IDF.

Hamas cannot destroy Israel. If they could, in some dreamland, they would be destroying themselves too.

Yeah, sure. I don't like nation-states either. But that's what exists.

So by your logic, Israel asking other countries to recognize that it has "a right to exist" is also non-sense, which is true. Not state has such a right.

The survival of the Jews is apparently not high on your agenda. — Andrew4Handel

Again false. I want Israel to be safe and continue existing. It is a unique country with promising aspects to it.

But going down this road is creating monsters. And worse of all will lead to massive suffering for Israelis. It's a self-fufilling prophecy, we're in danger, we need to expand and attack or we'll get bombed. They do this and then get attacked. Yeah, no kidding.

Those who support Israel now support not only the misery they inflict on others, but also support the death and hatred for Israel which can only increase with such acts. So, actually, despite what you may say, you are supporting Israel's own misery too.

Yes I agree with the bold part.

As for the rest, total lunacy and paranoia.

Israel has nukes and the US as an ally. Any country that seriously attacks Tel Aviv or Haifa would be flattened.

Heck, Israel wasn't far from using them in the Yom Kippur war, which is could have prevented in 1970.

Israeli's already live in what was called Palestine. They should not steal the lands of what remains of Palestine.

Now that they're there, yes.

Palestine one race? Short term I suppose.

I don't think it is feasible in the long term. But now, short term planning is the only way to move forward.

Israel withdrew their settlements by forcing the settlers out. — Andrew4Handel

They made a big show of it. Embarrassing really. As if the settlers were going to be placed in refugee camps in Israel. :roll: They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place.

After that Hamas took control and killed the Fatah opposition. They forced Israel to have a blockade as self defence and their charter calls for the extermination of Israel. Hamas is collectively punishing Gaza. — Andrew4Handel

Hamas won a democratic election in Gaza. Israel did not like the results and punished Gazans for voting Hamas in.

What do you want Israel to do? — Andrew4Handel

Withdraw as stated in resolution 242. Give Palestinians a state, autonomy. Risk peace for a change. If, under given circumstances they launch rockets again, then Israel would be defending itself. It cannot defend itself in a territory it is occupying.

What Israel is doing now is nothing short of monstrous.

Fight back against what? Israel left the the Gaza strip making it a Jew free territory and Hamas used it to fire rockets into Israel. When has Hamas tried to negotiate a peace? — Andrew4Handel

Against the strongest army in the Middle East? A country with nuclear weapons. Again, they withdrew because that territory was not beneficial to Israel, not out of good will.

When has Hamas wanted peace?

https://peacenews.info/node/3849/hamas-has-offered-peace

On 21 April 2008, hard-line Hamas leader Khaled Meshal told reporters in Damascus that the organisation was willing to a ten-year truce with Israel on the 1967 borders, without formally recognising the state of Israel: “We agree to a [Palestinian] state on pre-67 borders, with Jerusalem as its capital with genuine sovereignty without settlements but without recognizing Israel. We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hamas-offers-peace-deal-with-israel-1.1007111

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSTRE6B02ND20101201

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Hamas-would-accept-Saudi-peace-plan-spokesman-2844179.php

And etc. etc.

Hamas has created the prison. After the Israelis withdrew their settlements on the strip they have launched non stop aggression and murdered their political opponents including Fatah. — Andrew4Handel

This is false. Hamas has no control over the territory. No control on the blockade. They don't even have the control of being able to leave Gaza.

Israel only withdrew there settlements because they could reap no benefit from the land, not due to good will.

Hamas is ugly, but they fight back and give the people in Gaza a modicum of dignity. If Israel doesn't like Hamas, they should not have helped create them in the first place. Again, the Marxists at the WSJ can confirm this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

:up:



Yes you're right. It's mostly a way of talking about how people are trapped in an open air prison and being massacred. All while going through Covid and caloric restrictions.

Albright is worse than trash.

"Property is theft" — Andrew4Handel

Yeah, ok.

In today's world, property means people's livelihood and sense of identity.

Finkelstein and Amira Hass look at this stuff with utmost care. The Israeli media seems to accept it as a fact. This all point to your suspicion being correct. So yes, plenty of evidence, much of it in Hebrew. Won't be long before we get stuff in English. That is what is happening, alongside the Palestinian pent up anger at being treated like garbage.

So yes, another Netanyahu massacre, combined with long felt grief by the native population which is also causing internal fighting within Israel.

And human shields too.

Israel needs a strong left. They don't have one and this can only lead to more monstrosities.

Amira Hass, Ilan Pappe and Gideon Levy can only do so much. And if one doesn't see things the way they do, you're going to have to rationalize how your state can do such things...

Damn.

I don't know how'd I'd live after something like that. No words.

Yeah sure, being killed is trivially, not good. Within the possible reasons for why one could be killed, there's some room for honor, altruism and the like.

What Israel is doing now is horrific and senseless. They are not even winning any favors in the PR department outside of fooling themselves. If they continue like this, there will come a time when even the US elite can't put up with it anymore, if only to save face.

From this point to whenever that may happen, will take lots of senseless deaths.

Wonderful song. :)

Fool in the Rain - Led Zeppelin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I57nIP0vc44