The truth is, contrary to common assumptions, there are many professors who are ignorant and close-minded. Who just repeat whatever party-line they swallowed however long age. — Fooloso4

I met with the head of philosophy at my university back in 1988. I has been somewhat annoyed by the approach taken over the year, which was essentially telling us how to think. He laughed and said, 'Son, you're not here to learn about philosophy, you're here to parrot back to us that which we think is correct. If you want to learn philosophy, leave this course.' Which I promptly did 30 minutes later. I never regretted the choice. Anyway now I'm here, sniffing around to see what I might have missed.

That's it. I used to love Crunchies too. But some boutique confectioners make their own version of this product and the honeycomb is thicker, heavier and richer than the Cadbury version. In my time, I could easily eat a kilo of the stuff.

The stuff they put in a Violet Crumble candy bar? — Nils Loc

Yep - that's originally the Aussie version, I think. They are a bit denser than the Crunchie bar.

Don't know. I think honeycomb is close enough to candy on its own.

Writing allows one to talk to people without giving them the capacity to reply — Metaphysician Undercover

Good point and has been the case. But often the letters and on line comments, emails, tweets and phone calls are overwhelming, also invitations to defend your thesis in debate on radio or TV, can soon mean contending with a multiplicity of replies, more than the average person would ever encounter.

Sponge candy? A terrible name. We tend to know it Rocky Road or honeycomb toffee. In the days when I ate confectionary I used to love it.

Although I agree that pauses and length are very considered in plays, I start to wonder if written language has musicality or not, or if it is just monotonous... — javi2541997

The writing I most enjoy has a poetry and musicality and playfulness that transcends or transforms the material - I am thinking of Nabokov, Edith Wharton, Gore Vidal, George Elliot, Anthony Burgess. It's this melodious playfulness, the unexpected; the 'war against cliché' as Martin Amis described it, that keeps me interested. Plots don't often interest me. I am much more interested in how things are told. The writerly magic is often in the execution, not the narrative for me. Language is also like jewelry or a shiny toy when used with some creativity and vitality.

I suffered the same fear when Fosse was a kid and he ran away from class because he was afraid of standing in class, with the teacher and the mates looking at him. — javi2541997

A lot of people are drawn to a rich fantasy life because of their social phobia. Many writers seem to be drawn to the written word because it is a way of being social without needing to be directly with people. I was a writer for some years (newspaper and magazine feature articles, reviews, op eds) and it can be very seductive to drop 'bombs' via prose and not be there for when they go off. In writing, you can say what you need to say safely and carefully, with time for preparation, in a way that many could never do in person, in conversation.

”Spend some effort to find what misery you spread and then try to lessen it.”
– The commandment — mentos987

I can see the appeal in this and I find this frame interesting.

Do unto ‘others’ only applies to others who are like you in certain key respects that pertain to their humanity. — Joshs

I've heard this criticism of the Golden Rule frequently over the years and it makes sense. I have generally interpreted the Golden Rule as to treat other's preferences and values with respect, as we would want our preferences and values treated. In other words, more of a celebration of difference than a 'one size fits all.'

However, your "guess" is also a conjecture, and may not apply to specific situations. — Gnomon

But that’s my point. All we have is guesses, no matter who you are.

I mostly agree with your other points.

It seems regimes that do least for their citizens also impose the strictest limitations. — Vera Mont

:up:

I've generally held the view that very often people don't really want what they want. By this I mean it is hard for many people to truly identify they want from life and the circumstances they actually desire, because they are caught up in games of status and competition and socialised into accepting values they don't really benefit from holding and wouldn't hold if given an 'opt out' opportunity.

When one makes money there are expectations and lifestyle clichés about about how money should be spent. I'm fairly sure many people don't enjoy the things they buy much. It's ritual.

I have known several very wealthy people (multi-millionaire types) and many poor people. It's not always easy to see a clear difference in levels of happiness. People's mental health and capacity to connect, enjoy life and find purpose seems to be the primary issue and these don't have much to do with resources. Consider Matthew Perry.

I was talking to a rich guy with around 50 prestige and collectible cars a few years ago. I asked him how often he drove them. He told me he didn't much and that staff were employed to run them and maintain the fleet in a purpose-built storage warehouse. It seemed pretty clear these cars were fairly pointless and just more shit to worry about.

The obvious point to make is that access to education, health and housing (basic security and safety) are important building blocks. If one has a family, these become more urgent. Outside of this, I believe one can be very happy living in a room or two, with few possessions and not much money. Possibly the happiest I've been is living in a room in a share house with around 100 possessions and no debt or obligations. The Epicurean position on wealth and material possessions resonates with me. I tend to avoid owning things where I can and I consider myself an underperforming minimalist.

Now compare this to someone who lives under a bridge, whose circumstances are quite precarious, yet always is able to get just enough to eat or drink, be it by government stipend, food banks, or generosity of those more fortunate. Essentially, the certainty and relative security distinctly absent compared to the situation of the former or "average" individual. What of this man? — Outlander

I've known dozens of men and women in this situation. Mostly they have histories of trauma and mental ill health, so I am not sure where this can be taken.

Yes, it's just a variation on the bodily autonomy argument. It seems a bit of a strange and abstracted formulation to me but I am only looking at the paragraph.

I am in agreement that women should have control over what happens to their bodies and that a foetus should not trump a woman's rights in this respect. We don't allow (without consent) people's bodies to be used for all sorts of things which might save another life (organ or bone marrow donation, etc).

If we disregard abortion and interpret the absurd scenario literally would Henry Fonda (or any other person) be morally obligated to touch someone if touching them was the only way to save their life? — Captain Homicide

Henry Fonda, the reluctant Jesus... Most of us could probably go out and save a life now but don't.


What is the nature of the obligation in moral obligation? How does that implicit ought work?

Nice. I'd be interested to hear more from you on this, perhaps in a different thread. :wink:

Yes, people often do listen to their conscience. Conscience is just how one's moral sensibility expresses itself to ourselves. "Listening to one's conscience" means acting according to our moral sensibility. — hypericin

I think conscience is just self talk. People’s conscience also tells them they should have killed that rapist when they had the chance. They should have kept the money they found, etc. We call self-talk conscience when the talk seems to match conventional behavioural expectations as we might find them in church or a popular sitcom. Many people regret not stealing or lying or beating the shit out of someone, although they might find comfort behind a pretence of having done the ‘right thing.’

But Philosophers, and modernists in general, tend to be temperamentally individualistic, and hold-out for a more personal kind of meaning. In the 19th century, that yearning for a significant role in the world was often expressed poetically & romantically, in terms of intense relationships to God & man. However, the requirement for a unique meaning & purpose of each person's life, seems to be mostly a modern concern, as expressed most famously by the 20th century existentialists, in terms of "self-actualization". — Gnomon

I think many would agree but I wonder how accurate this is and how far it can be pushed. The problem is that any meaning derived from a religion or philosophy is still a subjective or personal account. What we tend to see is personal preferences played out on a theme - it might be Calvinism or Vedanta or Sufi based. But nowhere does anyone convey or hold a meaning that is not contingent and subjective and constructed from personal preferences and personal interpretations. My guess is that an intense relationship between gods and people is more likely to be an expression of self-love than a relationship between the corporeal and the transcendent.

It was just a sincere and honest message to you and Janus that we seem to have totally different views even on what philosophy is. — Corvus

1) This is called feedback.

2) Having different views on 'what philosophy is' is kind of the point of philosophy, or any kind of dialogue.

It may well be the case that you want to encounter only views that you like or are able to appreciate. You would not be alone there.

My engaging in any type of philosophical discussion with yourself, or Janus would be just total waste of everyone's time. So, all the best. — Corvus

Well it hasn't been a waste of my time so this statement is wrong. I find your views interesting. If you do not wish to engage with a member just ignore them. Most members employ this strategy here.

Whether you believe in a gods or not probably comes down to personal taste and aesthetics (not to mention enculturation). We then modify our beliefs with the arguments we encounter and find attractive.

I see no use for or good reasons for gods and no good reasons for some transcendent purpose. None of that stuff resonates for me.

I agree with this:

There are no answers to these questions as they're intended. Just get on with life as best you can. — Ciceronianus

And I agree with this:

Why is life?
Chance.

Where did [life] come from?
The universe.

Life seems to go against the basic law of entropy.
"Life" (i.e. local order) is just entropy's way of increasing entropy (i.e. global disorder).
Are we special?
Compare to what? And what difference does "special" or "not special" make?

Is there a God?
The best evidence compellingly suggests that 'there is a god' only in our just-so stories.

What is God?
An empty name.

Why is God?
It's h. sapiens' oldest placebo and still works for far too many of us. — 180 Proof

Meaning is a human construct and is always calibrated against some value system. In other words, the only meaning available to us is the meaning we make for ourselves. In my experience, people who spend significant time fretting over meaning can often miss the big picture which involves getting on with living, making choices, participating, helping others, being of use.

Joseph Campbell (with whom I am not always in agreement) wrote: "Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning."

I find this more satisfying than meaning attached to a magic man with no explanatory power and some vague or subjective interpretations of an old book which says a thing.

Thanks for your feedback. I don't care. :wink:

Have you noticed that there's no philosophy of risk because the point of philosophy is the contemplation of the world. It's a passive activity. — L'éléphant

Interesting point. I wonder haven’t you also encountered young men who fancy themselves Nietzsche’s heirs, who talk bravely and with great bluster about taking risks via self-overcoming, but are basically just posturing fanboys sitting at a laptop?

Questioning the reality of the world has been sufficiently done to demonstrate that it is not in any conceivable sense good philosophy — Janus

I agree. Some people do seem to become fixated on these sorts of questions and can't imagine how others are not. I remember my philosophy tutor (I studied it very briefly) saying, 'there's no solution to hard solipsism, so let's move on to some philosophy ' Always made me laugh.

If anyone gets irritated with the topic nowadays, then he hasn't read a single book on philosophy or misunderstood the topic or question. That is how I would see it. — Corvus

I understand but I would say that is a bit harsh. I have heard a number of distinguished philosophers criticize the idea - people like John Searle, Hilary Lawson, Susan Haack, Richard Rorty. I'm not a philosopher, so I am not immersed in the traditions. But it would be fair to say that there are differing schools of thought about what is worth pursuing and the temptation to write off the schools we disagree with as ignorant or 'not genuine' philosophy is probably unhelpful. (I'm not saying that you are doing this.)

It is not ideal, not morally good or even practically possible to force down a value of someone to the others. — Corvus

I agree. But I'm not sure people always consciously do this. They tend to use arguments as surrogates for value systems. A classic example of this is presuppositional apologetics for Islam or Christianity. But this is a digression.

My primary question when faced with arguments about whether the world is real, or if am I in a simulation, or if matter an illusion and idealism is the correct ontology - is what is the significance? Is there anything in my life I would do differently? Almost always the answer is no.

Philosophy is all about arguments. The conclusions are for each individuals. — Corvus

Not for me. Philosophy is about how you orientate your values, then come the arguments. My view is that people often settle on beliefs that appeal aesthetically, then a lot of post hoc rationalization comes into play. I also think the most interesting part is why people are drawn to certain arguments. Arguments don't necessarily speak for themselves, they often speak to the biases of those who hold them. Which is why what convinces X may not convince Y.

So is it more about the argument than a vital part of how you live? I am always interested in why people argue or hold positions.

I’m not making an argument, it is a question for you. By the way I should have put a comma between no and what. It wasn’t meant to be so what!

So what if there is no world? What then?

They didn't come to me, I knew them through projects I worked on in the media here. They were not seeking assistance and I am not sure about their level of self-awareness.

sometimes confused this term with hypocrisy — javi2541997

Yes, I think that's right.

Personally I love contradictions and imperfections - almost a form of wabi-sabi - and delightful for similar reasons to me.

Having a fear or inability in some aspect of your chosen field may be common. I worked with actors some years ago and most were pretty shy and fearful of public speaking. Comedians are often sour and glum. Etc.

I think this is why it is important to highlight how some writers, like Fosse, were able to confront suicide in the process of writing but may not be capable of going to a therapist and talking about it. — javi2541997

This highlights some interesting quirks of human nature in general. The psychologist whose own relationships are out of control. The actor who has social phobia. The genius who can't manage their own life. The writer who can't communicate. I've met several iterations of most of these over the decades. People are contradictions.

he comes across condescending, affected and incapable (im gathering, unwilling is the truth of it) to engage with many arguments he doesn't like. — AmadeusD

I don't see this either. @180 Proof seems to be asking for evidence to support a series of claims that keep getting repeated without significant justification. Incidentally those claims sound very close to ones Berando Kastrup makes about idealism e.g., as a more parsimonious and reasonable explanatory narrative than physicalism. I'd be interested to hear the reasoning too.

:up:

I can't seem to find any rational reason to stay alive. — rossii

Life and the process of living isn't rational.

It is in the context of actual and virtual possibilities that I am asking the question of the nature of risk. What is reliable and imaginary, and how do the two come together in proactive and preventative measures in sound philosophical thinking? — Jack Cummins

Risk has entered business thinking and clinical services mainly to avoid death, injury, litigation and loss of money. Having a risk mitigation strategy is often a way to reduce insurance premiums. Risk has become a minor obsession within the cult-like world of management theory.

Outside of this, I have no strong view of risk. We often connect risk to opportunity which recalls that shop-soiled homily, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained.' I have often told myself I need to take more risks. Part of this is in recognition that learning often involves embracing the strange and unfamiliar, in order to enlarge one's world. Often when you come to some philosophy you find yourself reacting against, it is important to try to 'make a friend' of it because it may just be the limits of your worldview rather than limitations in the philosophy that are activated. Often the things we fear (which present as risks) are the things we might benefit from learning.

Then what if two separate cultures or civilizations want different things? Are we saying the victor is in the right? — Philosophim

Interesting. Not sure why it would be about a 'victor'. Isn't the point that morality grows out of a sense making process? Morality will vary in detail and scope across cultures and history. Isn't that how humans work? And perhaps this does mean that subject to some criteria of value, the 'bad guys' win. This perspective will likely be anathema if you are looking for a morality that transcends the human process - a type of moral Platonism.

Form this vantage, for a living thing it is not existence which is good but self-consistent functioning. For cognitive beings like ourselves it is not existence which is moral but intelligible forms of social interaction. The use of truth-apt propositional logic is one particularly narrow way to attempt to achieve moral intelligibility, at the expense of a more expansive and effective understanding of the moral. — Joshs

Nicely put and this resonates with me.

Can I ask you about the expression 'intelligible forms of social interaction?' This might be seen to contain a broad range of behaviors - so when one culture is judged by another, the first may seem shockingly immoral. Is there a useful approach to reconciling differences between cultures, or is this a fool's errand?

do you agree it is usually based on escapism as a common factor? — javi2541997

I wouldn't use that word. For some suicide is to punish others. For others it is a grand gesture. For others still the goal is to end suffering (however that might look). I think escape is too nebulous a term.

I would not say 'audience' because I would sound arrogant. — javi2541997

I would think most write for an audience and to be understood. Sure, some arrogant writers might think that the average person is incapable of understanding their great subversive thoughts and may expect a small audience of cognoscenti. Others write for the money - which means a large audience. If you are not writing to be read by others you are keeping a journal. :wink:

I discussed with Vera Mont and @Bella fekete whether literature or the art of writing is an individualistic or collectivist act. — javi2541997

Do you agree that writing is a process of approaching only ourselves? — javi2541997

There's a lot of nonsense said about writing. I've known a number of successful writers and I think it's not unusual for people to be drawn to writing because it is solitary and some people who write may be compelled to write to work through anxiety or deal with trauma. This is Alain de Botton's view. But in the end there are likely to be as many reasons for writing as there are styles and genres. Most people seem to write for themselves and an audience of readers they hope to acquire.

Reasons for suicide are similarly diverse. Some people are just fed up with living. Some people are unwell. Some are unable to deal with trauma. Some are reacting to situational factors. Suicide is one word for many situations.

We have established a sense that not having a purpose for living is normal because Millennials are screwed, etc. — javi2541997

I know quite a few Millennials. While it is pretty easy to complain and find fault in life, the ones I know are busy being active in the world - working or volunteering and they seem far more hopeful and motivated than we were at that age.

:up:

Ethics is difficult - intractable - to the point of there perhaps being no solution; after all, why must there be an answer to "what should we do"? — Banno

That's a very interesting observation which I mainly share. In the West, a history of divine command theory, linking morality to compliance and hellfire, via a foundational guarantee from a magic man with anger management issues, has probably messed with our thinking.

Agree.

What I am saying is that there are certain behaviours that society has deemed acceptable and certain behaviours that society has deemed unacceptable. According to some moral subjectivists when we talk about morality we are talking about these socially acceptable and unacceptable behaviours. The sentence "murder is immoral" is true iff society deems murder unacceptable because "murder is immoral" just means "murder is deemed socially unacceptable." — Michael

As a non-philosopher with a secular orientation, I've generally assumed morality simply referred to a culturally held (intersubjective) code of conduct (where, naturally, there are many outliers and dissenters). We have internalized or incorporated this intersubjectivity to the point where many of the principles have become oughts in a substantive emotional sense. Nevertheless it seems that many people who hold that killing is wrong don't object to killing men, women and children for the sake of territory, politics or religion, or for some different understanding of a 'greater good.' I now understand that I am a moral realist because I hold the position that we shouldn't cause suffering and should try to minimize it. But the interesting part for me in the ought business is the justification.

I don't see a problem with claiming that society has manufactured a set of rules that each member must abide by, and that these are the rules we talk about when we talk about morality. — Michael

Which supports a view that morality is fluid and constantly open to change. Today's outliers are tomorrow's conservatives.

Nicely explained. Thanks.