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Is the final answer: Yes to Shia Muslims, no to Sunni Muslims — Hanover

Credit where credit's due: don't forget about ISIS and al Qaeda.

You might see a fundamental difference: unlike the attack on Salman Rushdie, those Sunni Islamists are or were not led or motivated by any country's official doctrines and rulings. To the extent that this is the case, it's a reflection of Iran's particular history, in which it ended up with a radically reactionary government whose authority in the region rests largely on its continuing radical position. On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken the Sunni Islamists have been supported more or less covertly by various governments or other powerful groups, whose representatives have sometimes at the same time publicly expressed sympathy with their actions and views.

If the answer is simply that Islam does not permit such fatwas but through corrupt leadership the ignorant masses were led to believe such in order to take a swipe at the West, that have done well to respond, but I'm still sorting out the politics from the theology.. — Hanover

I don't think it's that simple, because what's going on in Islamic countries is so varied and complicated. It's really not just, or even primarily, about Islam vs the West.

As to what Islam permits, opinions differ, and that's the point. There are widely differing interpretations, each of which has some support somewhere. The everyday beliefs and practices of most pious Muslims, as with most believers in any religion, are a mixture of peace, love, family values, and social conservatism.

But it might be the case that right now, in the present context, Islam is particularly resistant to progress and plagued by violence, and by violent theological interpretations. This is different from saying that Islam is intrinsically worse than other religions (more violent, more conservative, what have you). I say this not exactly to defend Islam (which in my opinion deserves a mixture of respect and contempt, as with all religions), but rather to defend the potential for change without the wholesale rejection of entrenched traditions. This is the only realistic way forward.

There was a time when Islam was a beacon of enlightenment, but even that was an expression of social and political realities rather than some true pure heart of Islam. And alas, that's not the world we live in today.

No -- Rome's or Canterbury's excesses neither justify nor excuse Tehran's pontificating mullahs. A plague on all their houses! — Bitter Crank

:100:

Was the attack on Salman Rushdie consistent with mainstream Muslim theology? — Hanover

I think there is a problem with the question, namely that there is no such thing as mainstream Muslim theology. The holy texts and traditions of Islam have been used both to condemn and to support various acts of violence, and these interpretations are conditioned by politics and history. The same thing happened with Christianity (and still does to some extent).

But unlike Christianity, there is no credible central Islamic authority.

The reactions from governments and religious leaders in Islamic countries will be interesting in the context of the various Islamic civil wars, but I personally don't see the point in looking at theology.

But if you're talking about Iranian religious clerics in particular, I'd expect support for the attack. On the other hand, Shia Islamists Hezbollah have so far said something along the lines of "no comment".

This does not sound like MAYAEL — L'éléphant

I agree. I wonder if his TPF account was hacked? — jgill

I've just spent some time looking at MAYAEL's posts and it's clear to me that it's the same person. The same spelling and punctuation mistakes.

"Well it's simple gay people are nasty plane and simple, sure a few of the woman might not be but I'm talking like 1% of the gay community
And so naturally a bunch of guys that like to get phucked in the azz by other guys and seek this kind of thing out via the night club party seen are going to be the scum that infects the nation"

Banned @MAYAEL for homophobia.

:up: :clap:

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Bob Dylan - If Not for You — Amity

I have good memories of this song. My parents used to play it.

That he existed was something he found he couldn't doubt, so that was precisely the thing he did not need to prove. He built the world back up again on that foundation, with God and proofs.

Your point, while perhaps a fair one, seems not to have affected my position.

I don't think Descartes advocated solipsism, did he? — Tate

Correct.

And scientists no longer expect any ultimate foundation or certainty for their theories. — bongo fury

This is why I think that solipsism and external world scepticism should be seen as important ideas in intellectual history rather than challenges to face on their own terms. It can be argued that Descartes was well-motivated in his time. Such motivations are no longer felt, so the ideas as expressed today become mere psychological curiosities.

Unfortunately, a noxious personality is much harder to give up than smoking.

Yes, I knew that. At the same time, I also wanted to explain its existence.

Yes, but it exists to gather all the anti-life stuff in one place, so that it can be easily ignored. Until Baden merged them all into this thread, there were at least two or three such active discussions. We've had enough. Containment seems like the best option.

There's nothing like the words of a professional torturer to send you into a peaceful sleep.

I'm told the version with Jonathan Davis is excellent. Don't know about Roy Avers.

In any case, prepare to have no idea what is going on or why. :grin:

I love paper books, but now I find myself tapping on words I want to know the definitions of or get more information on. Turns out that doesn't work. — T Clark

I do that too. Doesn't work for me either :chin:

Sometimes I'll look up a word or place and then go off on a tangent for 15 minutes, looking at maps and photos, following a Wikipedia trail off into the sunset. Love it. — T Clark

Too, I do that too. Attention deficit.

I know of Henry Cow, but haven't listened. Where should I start? — Noble Dust

Not sure it matters with Henry Cow. Legend or Western Culture. But I’m a bit more familiar with solo Fred Frith. Gravity and Traffic Continues are very different but both fantastic.

:up:

I’m sure I’ll read it again. Not right now though. Although I am curious about his other Sun books.

I'm reading The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe — Jamal

Finished it. Brilliant, and in my opinion gets steadily better as you go through the four parts. Sort of Jack Vance plus Nabokov, Borges and Proust. As it happens he was influenced by all of those, and references them pretty openly, though indirectly.

I must say though, I was able to get through it much more easily this (second) time round only because I was reading on an iPad, so I could look things up. Even a regular dictionary isn’t sufficient, because the lexicon makes use of many archaic words, so it was essential to have easy access to the web.

Jamal (mod), is this post ok? — Agent Smith

Of course. Don't play dumb.

Feels more proggy. Some Ian Anderson vibes or something. — Noble Dust

Prog feels like my musical home. I don't know about Ian Anderson; what I hear is the influence of Henry Cow (now that's a weird rabbit hole for you if you don't know them; Fred Frith is one of my favourite musicians).

If we're still trading tracks, this is the Oceansize magnus opus. The ending is profound. — Noble Dust

For some reason I assumed they were American, but I see they're from Manchester, and they were starting up around the time I was living there. I'd never heard of them.

I quite like it and I recognize the artistry, but it does have that solemn, portentous 90s guitar rock sound that I'm not that into. Maybe it'll grow on me. I appreciate learning of their existence.

I like the use of the horns on the first track — Noble Dust

Yeah I think that's one of the things that really attracted me. They did a lot of stuff with bassoon as well. This was the first song of theirs that I heard, one of their best:

How are they connected to Cardiacs? — Noble Dust

The lead guy, Kavus Torabi, was in the Cardiacs in the early 2000s, and Tim Smith of the Cardiacs had produced some of his music in the 1990s I think.

Oceansize is one of my favorite bands. One of their best — Noble Dust

Cool. I especially like the tinkly bit in the middle, and generally the whole thing has a satisfying anthemic quality.

That's cool. Definitely hear the influence.

I never really got into the Cardiacs--I think the vocals put me off--but I do like one of the bands that came out of the Cardiacs, called Knifeworld.

Ok. I defer to your better judgment — Agent Smith

I don’t want your deference. Go read some philosophy.

You've then missed the point of solipsism — Agent Smith

No, I'm guessing you just misinterpreted my use of the phrase "our existence", by which I meant the existence of me, Pie, 180, and everyone else aside from you.

If you really don't see it, then maybe you're not aware of how certain you actually are of our existence. We don't need proof for the things we're most certain of. That's pretty much what certainty is.

I for one am glad that I'm not trapped in your head.

Isn't it quite clear that, in line with solipsism, the only thing we can be certain about is our own self — Agent Smith

So the following wasn't a joke?

if we want absolute 100% certainty, we'll all havta be solipsists — Agent Smith

Great post.

But at least we can trust Tolkien — Cuthbert

Yes, I live in the heart of Mordor so I know it's all true.

I'm having a similar experience right now. I'm reading The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe, in which Wolfe claims that the narrative contained within is his translation of a manuscript that reached him by means of time travel from tens or hundreds of thousands of years in the future, but as far as I can tell there is no evidence for this. Nowhere has he given details about how he found the manuscript, and I can't find any reports about it. I'm forced to conclude that Wolfe made the whole thing up, which surely casts doubt on his reputation.

Agreed.

You can have a smaller or larger slice of the pie, but when it gets to half the pie and beyond, you basically have the pie, minus a slice or two. A slice has to have 2 cut sides and the slice between them. — unenlightened

If buns were pies, rather than small loafs, I'd admit defeat here.

*loaves?

Half a bun is not a slice of bread — unenlightened

Your logic is valid but this premise makes it unsound.

:up:

The worst faulty idea about trade unions is that they are a socialist endeavour promoting socialism.

They aren't, actually. They are just a common sense way to deal with your employer. — ssu

Obviously they can be and have been both.