@Banno

Debate moderators should not be the regular moderators,but should be someone both debaters accept.

But the main crux is the debaters themselves should have some sort of goodwill and charity just as a point of pride.

But when we model the world we’re not capturing it in a bottle, we’re interacting with it, making changes in it for our purposes. I know this seems counterintuitive. For centuries we assumed that the world is a set of object out there and our job is to mirror it with our representations.
But when we know something we are engaged in an activity involving that thing, producing that thing. Perceptual psychologists discovered this about the way that we perceive our perceptual world. To perceive something is not a passive inputting of a stimulus. It is a constructive activity involving anticipating of the way the world will respond to our behaviors in relation to it.
Looked at this way, the evolution of knowledge isn’t getting closer and closer to something sitting static out there. It’s the building of something always new, in conformity with our changing needs and purposes. At each step the ‘outside’ world only announces itself as affordances and constraints intricately responsive to our creative efforts.
Math and logic are a part of this but are only one element in a dance that moves back and forth between the fixing of set patterns and their dismantling and reformation as fresh structures.

Excellent @Joshs
More philosophers need to really understand and engage what you have written above and your next quote here;

"But fundamentally, the idea of a world of things existing independently of us is incoherent."— Joshs

Yes the material world is seperate from us,but it does not exist independent of us.

There are religious and "eternity" conclusions to be gleaned from these facts as well.

Narcissism.

Yep. Same as the Democrats.

For some people yes.
Still a poor debate.
@MikeListeral

@Wayfarer @Apollodorus
Yes,socrates use of mantras shows how a lot of the worlds spiritual and mystical traditions use similiar techniques to obtain union with the divine.

@Banno

Yes,that was the entertainment,not the debate!

Demonstrably wrong? Have you lost your marbles?

@Banno

Well there weren't much entertainment. More like 180 was too gun shy to engage.

The writing style is poor and unconvincing.

Look at the comments on the debate.

Debaters should write clearly without unnecessary jargon or weird formatting.

There should be no recourse to quoting other philosophers or making your points by referring to the specific concepts of philosophers.

Both debaters should defend and explain their own positions as well as trying to refute the others.

Moderator should suggest debaters to quit stalling and to answer questions fully.

Last two debates have been terrible,because 180 didn't follow simple etiquette.

There is a lot of truth in that extract.

But,Hindu,abrahamic and in fact all cultures around the world including African cultures work on similiar lines of control and subjection.

A system of divine Kings who ruled by subjugation was established in Egypt,which is African,the Egyptian pharaonic system has influenced all of European culture.

The most famous of western philosophers,plato,took a lot of inspiration and knowledge from Egypt as did Paul of tarsus.

If one analyses religious language and especially "enlightenment" values they are full of authoritarian concepts and dualisms.

The "enlightenment" was just Rome and Egypt by another method and name.

@Apollodorus

My take is different. I don't doubt that a person can use platos work to increase discipline and spirituality in a positive way.

But the way it used in government is to actually increase one's discipline in being more ruthless and becoming a god king.

Becoming godlike to the higher elites means more disciplined acquisition of power and wealth,and micromanaging the populace via media, govt institutions and education to be an efficient workforce.

What's great about having a scientist a neuroscientist here is you get to see the full bigotry and unedited dogma of these guys that are doing all this "research" into the brain...

And the image of the scientist as some unbiased observor collecting the data without any metaphysical assumptions or baggage is destroyed.

Cheers @Isaac ,you have done a great service showing how researchers are human,all too human. You are religious in your beliefs and assumptions!

As if a few expensive scanners and petty research disproves pain,or proves you are a bunch of atoms floating about!

@Apollodorus

Without a doubt bankers,industrialists,military men and politicians from elite families use platos and others ideas to bolster their control and gain more political power.

I would say the line is effectively unbroken from egyptian times till now.

But a nuance I think you should take on board is that just like Judaism adapted to the extent that one can be a secularist and still be a member of Judaism,even high ranking and in political office,so platonism and all the other theocratic movements are adaptable enough to appear or even promote secularism.

But of course,the top boys think they are all "gods"in the making or actually "gods"....
Just witness modern culture...

@Isaac
Feelings are subjectivity you fool.

If your in pain should you ignore it?

You ignorant bigot.

@Isaac
Nope. You can never prove feelings are matter.

My feelings say they are not matter.

@Isaac
Nope. Coffee tables have a similarity,they are both made from matter.

Feelings are not.

@Isaac
Nonsense. Materialists are saying feelings are Matter.

To think there is not a difference between a coffee table and your feelings is nonsense.

:lol: The whole thing is a racket, from McDonald's to Merck.

This is truth! @frank

@Apollodorus
Yep. I agree with all that!

All movements and religions need to appeal to elite classes and the masses,so plato catered for both.

And I'm sure his models were used by the later Greeks and Romans as you say.

In truth,many modern elites and rulers follow loosely this platonic way,but their systems are home grown like the kaabalah or pharaonic system.

@Apollodorus
To clarify,he wanted a certain type of theocracy.
A philosopher king pharaonic type of ruling elite.

The Greek system he inhabited was not the kind of theocracy he wanted.

The Iranian example is a good one. But I think plato would have wanted a more expansionist version. Like the US or the UK.

Of course socrates was spiritual,that's the whole point of the dialogues!

But by the same token,if anybody wants to reduce plato to socrates spirituality or some pure academic or even just a mystic,they are wrong. He was mystical,a theorist,spiritual but above all wanted to be a catalyst for a political movement and build a real practical theocracy.

Those who ignore platos politics are not looking at his ultimate intention.

@Ross Campbell
But meaning is also a source of pleasure or joy,is it not?

@Apollodorus
No doubt plato is not a sceptic or an atheist.

Neither is socrates. Socrates knew the "good" and about life after death,he clearly knew the mysteries and egyptian monotheism. Socrates was disillusioned with politics but had his ideas of an ideal state.

But also,definitely definately plato is a theocrat.

@Apollodorus
Yep. I agree with your view of socrates.

On plato I agree with what you have stated,but,and it's a big but,platos main aim was political power,a kind of theocracy,rule by an elite of educated platonists.

And that is what strauss picks up.

To me plato himself and political power are inseperable.

To plato rulers should be implementing the "divine" laws
and "the good" like vicgerents or even better divine rulers.

@Apollodorus
OK. With regard to Strauss,one must realise he was a very tricky political academic.

Strauss made some valid points about plato writing esoterically at times,and gearing his writings to particular audiences and mindsets.

The laws expresses a lot of platos political vision,and the timaeus his cosmology.

But platos higher doctrines were oral and taught to those he deemed acquainted with the mysteries and at a much higher level.

These doctrines have been preserved by the neo platonists,and with time and strauss and others the emphasis is less religiously explicit.

Modern platonists can preach secularism and worship of the secular good and law to the masses and be mystics who believe in divine union in private.

@Apollodorus
I'm not sure if your addressing me or fooloso4.

Are you agreeing with the post I made Or?

@Angelo

I think If philosophy is used as a therapy then it can help
Improve relations between people.

If its used as an ideology that may make things worse.

But,it cannot change the actual personality of the person involved. It can only help one to express better in a relation.

@Kinglord1090

By the way you running off through logic or emotion?!
Or both...

@Kinglord1090
There's no impasse. You never even got off the ground.

There was no discussion. You rolled in with a dogma and preached it,then got slapped down gracefully.

Now you posts are getting emotional. So don't recommend shit you can't do yourself.

And I'm happy in my life,with all I want. Comes from being
real,and taking responsibility for my Emotions.

If only you knew how wrong your comment about hardship is...

You really need to get out more,and stop living in your own head.

@Kinglord1090

Nope. They have trouble with processing emotions,not that they don't have any.

Have your worked in clinical settings?

Because you might understand if you had.

@Kinglord1090

Read the article.

The emotions are still experienced,but not processed as well as normal.

It's impossible to not have emotions.

@Kinglord1090

Correctomundo! Look at the emotions on kinglord!!

Now,it's a misnomer that people with alexithymia don't have emotions. So your whole argument is gone.

Your sarcasm is shit!

@Kinglord1090
No. Try again.

By the way,you calling me beautiful is the first thing you have got right this thread.

@Kinglord1090
You framed the question with a ludicrous impossible assumption.

Can you guess what the assumption was?

@Kinglord1090
My username is the name of the greatest Greek philosopher you ignorant dumbass. Wiki is your friend!

@Kinglord1090

By the way,interesting choice of username.
Delusions of grandeur!

@Kinglord1090
And I literally said you are framing the question in an attempt to justify your argument.

Read my post bruuuuuuuuih!

I don't need to throw shade,your digging your own contradictions and displaying your idealistic claptrap extremely well.

@Kinglord1090
Your list of rules and regulations just shows you are contriving and rigging your argument and any trying to stop dissent or counter views.

Your not wanting a discussion your wanting to preach that you have some magic solution for your own personal anxieties.

You haven't thought through your position at all.

Your post is as ludicrous as saying "we can Eliminate suffering and have world peace if we just eliminate humans,prove me wrong".

This whole thread is about your anxiety,your problems with your emotions.

How about you work on yourself rather than "fixing" the entire planet?

Does everything have to be a psychological disorder these days?— Wise Old Lady

A lot of folk wisdom and psychology is excellent.

There are some rare people who use worldviews as an expression of their values rather than therapy.

Those people are great talkers and artists.

Most artist and talkers are neurotic as hell!

@TheMadFool
I think religions are therapy to a vast amount of people.

Your example of buddhism is pretty much on the mark.

That said philosophy science and secularism are also therapies to cope with the world.

Most of the planet suffers from anxiety.

@Trey
Well your answers reveal a lot about you.