Einstein described the universe as "finite, but unbounded — Gnomon

Information is both physical (info=energy=matter) and metaphysical (meaning ; ideas ; math). — Gnomon

EnFormAction is my coinage for the Generic Information responsible for the formation of every objective Thing and every subjective Form that evolved from the initial Singularity. — Gnomon

So, attempting an analogy here, is it that enformaction is like computer code, and information is like the GUI we see on the computer screen?

So, from what I conjecture from your two above quotes, physicality extends all the way into the metaphysical ground of existence; this one can claim since both information and enformaction interface the physical_cognitive? Does this possibility suggest semi-metaphysicality instead of metaphysicality?

I use that term primarily for its original meaning "adjunct to physics". — Gnomon

I'm a bit puzzled by your use of "adjunct" because it usually means supplemental rather than essential. Given your emphasis on the essential role of metaphysics to existence -- and therefore to physics -- a conventional position, construing it as supplemental seems contradictory.

...mine [worldview] is fundamentally Philosophical (inference). — Gnomon

You count yourself a logician primarily? — ucarr

No. I'm just an amateur philosopher presenting a non-academic thesis... — Gnomon

Well, you say your worldview is fundamentally inferential so... your conclusions are not reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning?

Quantum Physicist John A. Wheeler :
It from Bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — at a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that what we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions — Gnomon

Is it correct to say the essence of your enformaction theorem is Wheeler's It-From-Bit idea?

I see that Wheeler reduces reality down to the binary code of the computer. This suggests to me the
bits processed in computer circuitry embody your above definitions of information_enformaction.

Are you conceptualizing Information Singularity as a type of black hole compressing the universe down to a point-source? — ucarr

No. My Singularity is a meta-physical philosophical concept, not a scientific conjecture. — Gnomon

Is it correct to say your Singularity has components both physical and cognitive?

Your use of spacetime as a boundary flies in the face of conventional wisdom about the phenomenal universe such that it has no boundaries. — ucarr

The boundaries I referred to are Space & Time, which are not physical fences. — Gnomon

Spacetime within the context of Relativity is most assuredly physical. General relativity, being the geometric theory of gravitation -- including warpage of spacetime -- makes the case for this.

How can you justify your above claim in light of this?

Einstein described the universe as "finite, but unbounded..." its assumed that he was talking about the physical shape of the universe as a sphere, not as extending into infinity. — Gnomon

I'm thinking the above statements contain a thicket of issues: a sphere, by definition, has boundaries (every point on its surface is equidistant from its center). More generally, a shape, by definition, has boundaries. Finally, if a physical object doesn't extend indefinitely, it has a shape. Do you think otherwise?

The scary part is the possibility homo sapiens will effect its own obsolescence in accordance with evolution by causing an information singularity necessitating appearance of homo superior in order to understand and utilize the higher cognition. — ucarr

Funny, but I don’t see that as scary. I see that as a destiny fulfilled. Yes, all the species that were our ancestors but are now extinct have effected their own obsolescence by breeding something more fit. Superior as you put it. I suppose it sucked in a way for the species now extinct, but I see it as a success. — noAxioms

I admire your big-hearted generosity: you look at evolution writ large and applaud its progress, inevitable extinction events notwithstanding. Henceforth, I'll use it as a guide for my own speculations about the future. I see from my readings here that my thinking needs modulation by your robust brand of optimism.

I like your optimism for a future cooperative between homo sapiens and homo nova.

What's your thinking about the problem of good and evil as conceptualized into a future, interstellar society?

• I need to encounter a persuasive argument why good can hold its own before the onslaughts of homo nova self-interest.

• By the way, I think self-interest pushed to the extreme of infinity is a useful definition of evil.

Perhaps a good exercise has you elaborating some essentials of future evil; has me elaborating some essentials of future good.

With respect to what the gravity is doing in the two scenarios, there is no difference. In other words, the cause is the same in the two, but the effect is different due to the same type of cause acting in different situations. — Metaphysician Undercover

Do you deny that gravity holding a person down to earth in one situation and accelerating the descent of a person in free fall in another situation exemplifies gravity doing two different things in two different situations?

Do you deny that cause and effect relationship with outcome 1 in situation 1 and cause and effect relationship with outcome 2 in situation 2 exemplify two different cause and effect relationsips?

Cause and effect are contextualized by ordinality, but the ordinality in this case is defined as atemporal ordinality. That eight is a greater quantity than six is a different type of ordinality, which does not imply temporality. But causation is a different type of ordinality from quantity because the terms of that specific form of ordinality are defined by temporality, before and after, rather than by quantity. — Metaphysician Undercover

Since, when we look at integers 6 and 8 and understand there is no temporal relationship connecting them, as per the definition of ordinality, and that therefore, if we replace 6 and 8 with before and after, and if we maintain our understanding of the context to be ordinal, then claimingbefore and after have a temporal relationship amounts to conflating two distinct categories (contexts). When placed within the context of ordinality, before and after either get stripped of their conventional meaning, temporal, thus becoming undefined placeholders, or they become oxymorons, i.e., temporal-atemporal terms. In short, ordinal (rank) and cardinal (quantity) are distinct categories.

Causation is not a type of ordinality. In the context of ordinality (rank) there's no causal link between 6 and 8, or between any of the other ordinals.

Causation and temporal antecedence are closer to -- but not coincidental with -- cardinality. Cardinality can be applied to temporal antecedence in the sense that an event temporally antecedent to another event has a time quantity measurement different from the later event.

Do you deny this?

Okay. So, you think cause and effect – even when manifesting simultaneously – must always be understood in terms of temporal antecedence in order to have coherence? — ucarr

Yes. if cause and effect manifested simultaneously we would not be able to distinguish which is the cause, and which is the effect because the temporal relationship of cause/effect, by which we would determine one is the cause, and the other the effect would not exist. — Metaphysician Undercover

Do you acknowledge that your above affirmation raises the possibility that humans, in making the effort to understand phenomena causally, might be projecting a rational conceptualization of the mind onto the world?

Do you acknowledge such a possibility suggests the existence of evidence supporting David Hume's attack on rationality_causality?

The high volume of bacteria is observed to be temporally prior to the reaction (symptoms) therefore affirmed to be the cause. If the two suddenly occurred in a truly simultaneous way, we could not say that one caused the other, the occurrences would be said to be coincidental. And if we try to assign cause and effect to two coincidental occurrences we have no way of knowing which is the cause and which is the effect. — Metaphysician Undercover

Might this be a motivation for projecting artificial temporal antecedence onto observed phenomena?

In our examination of this bacterial infection, it should be noted no symptoms appear before the bacterial content is high-volume. This time lag, known as the incubation period, holds standard to medical diagnosis and treatment of sickness.

Since they don't appear during the incubation period, can we claim bacterial infection before high-volume is an antecedent cause of symptoms?

Addendum:

If you do not believe me that causation is a temporal concept then do your own research, and find out how the term is used. Then get back to me with what you find. — Metaphysician Undercover

Kant reacted to the Enlightenment, to the Age of Reason, and to Newtonian mechanics (which he probably understood better than any other philosopher), by accepting determinism as a fact in the physical world, which he calls the phenomenal world. Kant's goal was to rescue the physical sciences from the devastating and unanswerable skepticism of David Hume, especially Hume's assertion that no number of "constant conjunctions" of cause and effect could logically prove causality.

Kant called this assertion the "crux metaphysicorum." "If Hume is right," he said, "metaphysics is impossible. Perhaps even knowledge is impossible?" Kant's Critique of Pure Reason was to prove that Hume was wrong.

Neither Hume’s Idea of “natural belief” nor Kant’s “concepts of the understanding” are the apodictic and necessary truths sought by metaphysicians. They are abstract theories about the world, whose information content is validated by experiments. — The Information Philosopher

Have you examined the atemporal conjunction of qubit (superposition) quantum computing within "Osprey," Google's quantum computer?

the "action-at-a-distance" of gravity is understood to not be instantaneous. — Metaphysician Undercover

You're right. The speed of gravity waves equals the speed of visible light waves. The action-at-a-distance of gravity is not instantaneous.

Why would you think that gravity would only avt [sic] after the person steps ove [sic] the edge? — Metaphysician Undercover *1

The gravitational field doesn't predate the ocean. So, at all times, the ocean currents are under influence of both earth and moon gravitational fields. — ucarr

*1 Why do you think I don't know this?

Obviously gravity is acting on the person prior to falling over the edge. — Metaphysician Undercover

...when a suicide jumps from the bridge, they would hover in the air for a positive interval of time before accelerating towards the ground. — ucarr

Do you see a difference between being held to the ground by gravity and accelerating-due-to-gravity to the ground while free-falling through space?

Note -- If there's a time lag in acceleration due to gravity -- at sea level it's $9.8m/s ^2$ -- then an atomic clock will be needed to measure such a minute interval of time.

I do not deny that one might define causality such that it is not necessary for the cause to be prior in time to the effect. What I've said is that this would render causation as incoherent and unintelligible. — Metaphysician Undercover

I've already agreed that ordinal relations are not necessarily temporal. — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. So, you think cause and effect -- even when contextualized by ordinality instead of by temporal antecedence -- only has coherence when cause is prior in time to effect?

...some might allow for simultaneity, but as I said this renders causation as unintelligible because then there is no true principle to distinguish cause from effect. — Metaphysician Undercover

At scout camp a boy, out on a hike, getting thirsty, fills his empty canteen with water from a stream and drinks. Back home and twenty-four hours later the boy starts feeling sick. His doctor informs him of the bacterial infection he imbibed from the stream. He learns that symptoms have appeared that day because after twenty-four hours of rapid multiplication, the bacteria has attained high volume. The symptoms were not caused by bacterial infection; they were caused by high volume of bacterial infection.

Okay. So, you think cause and effect – even when manifesting simultaneously – must always be understood in terms of temporal antecedence in order to have coherence?

Causality is not inherently implied in equations of motion, but postulated as an additional constraint that needs to be satisfied (i.e. a cause always precedes its effect)." — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. So, you think postulation is sufficient ground for concluding: (...a cause always precedes its effect)?

Post-quantum physics has equated Information (power to enform) with physical Energy. In which case the future unleashed-singularity could indeed be an explosion of Information. — Gnomon

So, information, in this context, is physical and thus "the future unleashed-singularity" of information would likewise be a physical explosion?

Are you aware of something similar to an "information singularity" in recorded history (a la Gutenberg)? — Gnomon

Is this a reference to early book printing?

The transition from Theological Science to Empirical Science was a significant change of direction, but the Age of Enlightenment took centuries to take full effect. Hardly an explosion. — Gnomon

Good correction. However, I have two slight howevers. Like you say:

...the Information Age that began in the early 20th century has rapidly expanded... — Gnomon

Acceleration of change can start slowly, eventually picking up great speed:

making radical changes in socio-cultural phenomena. — Gnomon

Categorical advances, although not examples of something-from-nothing, do a pretty fair job of simulation.

...mine [worldview] is fundamentally Philosophical (inference). — Gnomon

You count yourself a logician primarily?

I was inferring from current knowledge back to unknown possible initial conditions... — Gnomon

At the time of the singularity preceding the Big Bang?

...his [universeness] empirical stance labels questions of Origins as Religious, whereas I view such explorations as Philosophical. — Gnomon

Perhaps some sort of richly complex and debatable premise can be spun out of this.

I came to an Information Singularity of my own, where space-time faded away into infinities. — Gnomon

Are you conceptualizing Information Singularity as a type of black hole compressing the universe down to a point-source?

I assume that Plato followed a similar line of reasoning, and concluded that Reality is bounded by space-time. — Gnomon

Your use of spacetime as a boundary flies in the face of conventional wisdom about the phenomenal universe such that it has no boundaries.

But then, whence space-time & energy-laws. So, he postulated a transcendent (eternal ; infinite) Source of Enforming power (Logos - in Ideality) as an answer to the Open Question of "why something instead of nothing". But that kind of pioneering reverse-reasoning (into the a priori unknown) is not allowed by Empirical doctrine (from known to knowable). — Gnomon

I would expect you to contest any doctrine characterizing reverse-inference as a journey into the unknowable.

Sidebar -- Regarding,

the Open Question of "why something instead of nothing". — Gnomon

Here's my short answer to this classic question: "It's because you ask the question."

This seems to be the most popular viewpoint regarding the 'pivotal' moment of the development of an ASI. Folks like myself and I think 180 Proof, think that it's just as possible, that a developing/growing ASI that achieves self-awareness, would be benevolent towards all lifeforms, especially lifeforms with the sentience level of humans. — universeness

My initial reaction, which tends towards melodrama (and is therefore suspect) impels me to speculate the above hope is more fever-dream than rational speculation. Remember Independence Day when the human optimists look up towards the hovering alien mothership with hopeful expectation of an imminent, cosmic love-fest? This occurs just before they get vaporized into oblivion.

I'm being melodramatic -- forgive me. However, consider our best evidence available for rational speculation about how homo superior -- whether biological or cyborg -- will likely behave towards homo sapiens. This evidence, as you are well aware, comprises the wretched history of homo sapiens treatment of the rest of earth's animal kingdom. All the expletives in the English language aren't enough to articulate fully how badly we've treated earth's animal kingdom.

As there are homo sapiens kindly to animals, we can expect likewise homo superior individuals. Will such individuals be of sufficient volume to counterbalance the collective treatment of homo sapiens by homo superior the species? By the evidence of homo sapiens' treatment of earth's animal kingdom, this seems hardly likely.

On the other hand, it seems likely to me homo superior will be empowered to enact forms of benevolence beyond our present ability to imagine. Will this be enough of an offset to stand as a protection? I doubt it seriously.

The new, higher-order species, by definition, will have needs and desires that consume resources of creation beyond what homo sapiens can conceptualize. This will mean abrogation of vast resources now essential to the self-determination and well being of homo sapiens. Just the other day I happened to be around some horses. As I started thinking about them, I realized something horrible with stark clarity: Horses are large animals. What they do best, according to their innate power, is run fast and far each day of their lives. Well, humans, pursuing their own dreams, have partitioned off nearly all of the open land on earth. The possibility for horse happiness, with few exceptions, has been destroyed by humans.

Humans will benefit greatly from the benevolent actions of homo superior. We know, however, true happiness in its highest manifestation depends upon species sovereignty. That is lost with the advent of the new sovereign species.

No, if the gravitational field is the cause of the tides, it predate the tides, not necessarily the oceans. — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. The gravitational field doesn't predate the ocean. So, at all times, the ocean currents are under influence of both earth and moon gravitational fields.

Does the strengthening gravitational field predate the rising tide?

The ocean tide rises with the progressively closing approach of moon to earth. As strengthening field intensifies, ocean tide heightens simultaneously. There is no time lag in the action-at-a-distance of the gravitational field. Were that the case, when a suicide jumps from the bridge, they would hover in the air for a positive interval of time before accelerating towards the ground.

We see this in a Warner Bros. cartoon featuring Wiley Cayote going over the edge of a cliff in pursuit of Roadrunner.

Have you seen this hover-in-the-air hesitation first-hand in your own experience?

Do you instead acknowledge that before creation of the material universe, cause and effect were temporally sequential whereas, in the wake of said material creation, cause and effect are not always sequential? — ucarr

...cause and effect are always sequential by definition... — Metaphysician Undercover

Your above clause is analytical. Is it also tautological? Also, remember having said:

I've already agreed that ordinal relations are not necessarily temporal. — Metaphysician Undercover

Can you cite a definition of cause and effect that explicitly incorporates temporal antecedence?

For me, the term 'information singularity' or 'technological singularity,' is more about a 'moment of very significant change.' The terminator movies 'might' be a respectable example. From the moment 'skynet' was switched on, human existence was utterly changed. ASI,(artificial super intelligence), is the main candidate for such a significant moment. — universeness

Ah, yes. Terminator. The great Harlan Ellison, author of Demon With a Glass Hand_The Outer Limits, subsequently ripped off by James Cameron for his Terminator franchise. (Ellison won a lawsuit against Cameron).

In my original post to you I included the following passage. I took it out, fearing it might be perceived as woo. Now, after reading your post, I'm feeling more bold (I include the first paragraph to help establish the context):

I will describe my statement as an historical conjecture: the information singularity at point of explosion pushes sentience across a threshold whereupon a "quantum leap" upward into a new, higher gestalt of cognition gets underway. This new level of understanding and conceptualizing could be expected to transform the phenomenal universe through the agency of sentients.

The scary part is the possibility homo sapiens will effect its own obsolescence in accordance with evolution by causing an information singularity necessitating appearance of homo superior in order to understand and utilize the higher cognition. — ucarr

The second paragraph goes a long way with few words towards answering your main question:

Here, I am discussing, what YOU think is emergent due to all human actions, based on their varied manifestations of intent and purpose... — universeness

I don't consider myself being negative, but rather being realistic as I believe every top species eventually generates its destroyer, and that's progress!

'Information reaching critical mass,' seems to me to be a fair connection to the popular concept of an 'information singularity' or a 'moment of very significant change,' so If that's the imagery you are invoking, then I understand it. — universeness

Your are correct in your above speculation.

I don't think a parallel between the moment 'elementary particle formation' occurred and when gnostic radiation (I assume, you mean something like 'the moment when knowledge was first exchanged between hominid or any species of life), offers much, as one happened way way way before the other. — universeness

I am strongly inclined towards exaggeration and drama. Because of this inclination, I cannot forget my first viewing of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I'm referring to the opening scenes depicting the tribal ape wars. When, finally, one ape weaponizes bone into club that trounces the opposition, well... that wasn't an information singularity moment, but it sure as heck was a turning point!

Okay. Time predates God. And God created the material universe.

So, time before God was metaphysical and there were no material things?

Okay. God can only act within time.

So, outside of time God cannot exist? — ucarr

I think my answer to all this is generally yes. But I don't know what you mean by saying time is "metaphysical". If you mean that it's an object of study in metaphysics, then I agree. — Metaphysician Undercover

3. As an actual cause, it is impossible that God is outside of time.
4. Therefore time as well as God must be prior to material (physical) things, and is not material (physical). — Metaphysician Undercover

We know through observation and induction that each and every material thing has a cause. The cause of a material thing is prior in time to the existence of that material thing. Therefore there is a cause prior in time to all material things. — Metaphysician Undercover

The gravitational field of earth's moon causes the rising and falling of ocean tides. Do you say that the moon's gravitational field predates the oceans covering the earth? Do you instead acknowledge that before creation of the material universe, cause and effect were temporally sequential whereas, in the wake of said material creation, cause and effect are not always sequential? Another way of saying this is saying ordinal relationships are not always temporally sequential.

Can you accept the following formulation: God existing and acting in time causes the material universe?

So God exists and acts within time is your main premise? — ucarr

For that part of the argument. However that God exists and acts within time are conclusions drawn from the preceding part, which we already discussed. — Metaphysician Undercover

Let's take a look at a list of your essential premises:

• Time predates God.

• God can only exist and act within time.

• Causation occurs within time.

• God caused (created) the material universe in time.

How do you respond to the following summary?

Upon consideration of the above essentials, your thesis gives highest priority to time. It is the principle essential, ranking above even God. This must be so since God cannot exist or take action without the sanctioning empowerment of time, a principle essential that predates God.

:up: :100:

Did ↪universeness actually refer to an "information singularity", or is that your interpretation of his intention? — Gnomon

How much credence do you give to the idea that we are heading towards an 'information/technological singularity? — universeness

From the evidence of the above quote, I say universeness actually refers to an information singularity. Do you think I'm misreading the quote?

...your description of a "cognitive explosion of information..."sounds like a creation event... — Gnomon

Were you making a religious statement, or a philosophical conjecture, or merely referring to an empirical scientific fact? — Gnomon

I will describe my statement as an historical conjecture: the information singularity at point of explosion pushes sentience across a threshold whereupon a "quantum leap" upward into a new, higher gestalt of cognition gets underway. This new level of understanding and conceptualizing could be expected to transform the phenomenal universe through the agency of sentients.

I was not postulating existence of a transcendent enformactional entity who causes the phenomenal universe.

Where did you get the idea of an "information big bang" and "cognitive explosion"? I googled those terms and came-up empty. I'm not familiar with such "common big bang language" — Gnomon

I'm guilty of a lack of clarity. "Common big bang language refers to singularity, not information singularity.. The latter term came to me from the above quote of universeness.

I got nothing about an original Big Bang burst of Information or a "cognitive explosion", that resulted in the creation of a physical universe from pre-existing rational causal power-to-enform (LOGOS?). — Gnomon

What you say is part and parcel of your theory of enformaction.

I was only postulating, per the language of universeness, the historical evolution of human consciousness towards a cosmic culmination. Imagine, if you will, a cognitive "explosion" of categorically new concepts and scientific methodology.


Does your enformaction theory, as I've been wondering, have Plato's Theory of (Ideal) Forms as an ancient forebear?

You're doing a Socrates, eh? — Tom Storm

I don't know anything!

...trying to parse what god can and cannot do, or where God resides and in what form is pointless and subject to the paucity of human understanding. If the laws of physics get in the way of a person's understanding God then they're not doing it right... — Tom Storm

I recognize your point of view and, moreover, I respect the facts and conventions that source the content of your query. However, in my dialogue with Metaphysician Undercover, I want to examine his thinking non-judgmentally. My purpose is to hopefully discover some ramifications of his thinking not already known to him. Should this happen, it might present him with an opportunity to delve deeper into his thinking, thereby increasing the chance of it becoming richer and deeper.

An important part of the technique, as I understand it, entails asking basic questions the world thinks already answered. Sometimes, in dialogue, simple questions trigger subtle, lucrative questions. When this happens, thought adventurers like ourselves are off to the races along a new line of inquiry not previously seen. Haven't we seen this in the movies? Folks put their heads together on a tough question. Suddenly, someone asks a simple question in a new context or POV and bingo! The answer pops out of the birthday cake.

This is why non-judgmental interviewing can be useful to the philosophical theoretician, a characterization I apply to Metaphysician Undercover.

You would need to clarify further, what you mean by 'parallels the big bang.' — universeness

Since you refer to an information singularity, a term I know from the common Big Bang language, and since your question about history headed towards a possibly human-directed information singularity strikes me as a question of some considerable importance to you, I thought perhaps you were linking cosmic Big Bang singularity to information "Big Bang" singularity. According to my guess about this, I've been assuming the linkage is metaphorical. In other words, while the cosmic Big Bang singularity is a literal explosion of the universe into existence, the information "Big Bang" is a cognitive explosion of information into some type of existentially new universe.

The intriguing part, according to my speculation, concerns the parallel of matter reaching critical mass just prior to radioactivity with elementary particle formation and likewise information reaching critical mass just prior to gnostic "radioactivity" with elementary knowledge formation.

I suppose I'm really only talking about a renaissance like the one Da Vinci is credited with sparking, except at a universal scale.

It seems to me that an objective truth about all humans is that we seek new information. — universeness

We have altered the Earth in many significant ways. Can we do the same to the solar system and far beyond it? Is that an objective truth about what is fundamental in our nature to do? — universeness

To what extent do you think that human beings are 'information processors?' — universeness

Our ability to memorialise and pass on new knowledge from generation to generation seems to have 'the potential' to affect the 'structure and purpose of the contents of the universe.' — universeness

In the future we will...Act as a single connected intellect and as separate intellects. — universeness

How much credence do you give to the idea that we are heading towards an 'information/technological singularity? — universeness

You are asking about the practical reality of one possible essential attribute of humans: information processors?

Your are asking about the possible primary role of human existence: collection, storage and dissemination of information?

You are asking about humans playing an important part in the transformation of our presently known universe to another, radically different state of being via a dynamic process that parallels the Big Bang?

A cause... cannot be outside of time. — Metaphysician Undercover

So causation implies passing of time.

Since you say,

1. Logic produces the conclusion that there must be a cause prior in time to all material (physical) things. — Metaphysician Undercover

can we assume someone can speak or write a logical statement that necessarily leads to:

the conclusion that there must be a cause prior in time to all material (physical) things. (?) — Metaphysician Undercover

1. (Continued) This cause cannot be material (physical) because it is prior in time to material (physical) things. — Metaphysician Undercover

If we wanted to speak of something prior to time, we would have to use terms other than temporal terms to describe this sort of "priority". We might say "logically prior to" for example. — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. Regarding the ordering of reality, if something is logically prior to time, then its priority over time is by a standard of measure not temporal?

This cause cannot be material (physical) because it is prior in time to material (physical) things. — Metaphysician Undercover

In the above quote priority is temporal? In the time prior to the physical-material universe, history was nonetheless unfolding, with some events occurring before other events? An example would be whatever event was happening in the immaterial world just before the big event of God causing the existence of the physical-material world?

1. (Continued) Theologians call this "God" — Metaphysician Undercover

So God causing the physical-material universe out of time does not cohere with the axiom: causation cannot occur outside time? Theological God is thus incoherent with causation?

2. If time is the product of physical activity then God must be outside of time. — Metaphysician Undercover

So time is the product of physical activity is a false premise?

3. As an actual cause, it is impossible that God is outside of time. — Metaphysician Undercover

So God exists and acts within time is your main premise?

4. Therefore time as well as God must be prior to material (physical) things, and is not material (physical). — Metaphysician Undercover

God’s existence in time is non-physical whereas human existence in time is physical?

If we wanted to speak of something prior to time, we would have to use terms other than temporal terms to describe this sort of "priority". We might say "logically prior to" for example. — Metaphysician Undercover

Since, by your declaration, logical priority ≠ temporal causality, it seems to follow that a realm of ideal forms exemplifies your statement that:

...we have an inductive principle that there is a cause prior to every material thing. — Metaphysician Undercover

Furthermore, it seems to follow that this realm of ideal forms, being outside time because it timelessly causes material objects to exist, holds possession of a metaphysical identity in the sense that it is beyond both the temporal and the physical.

Can you affirm or deny this interpretation of your meaning?

Furthermore, it seems to follow that this realm, per the above named attributes, empowers God to exist in time whereupon God creates the material universe. Under this construction, God is a physical being. Moreover, God, being physical, exists as a natural part of this physical universe of material things. All of this entails a denial of God as supernatural, a radical departure from establishment theism.

Can you affirm or deny this interpretation of your meaning?

Embedded within your declarations is the mystery of the status of time.

Does the following train of thought reflect your thinking: Since time predates God and God created the material world of physics, time must be something other than physical. — ucarr

No, that's backwards, you need to reverse it. We have the physical world first, as our source of evidence. We see that something preexists each and every material thing as the cause of existence of that thing. — Metaphysician Undercover

Furthermore, you seem to be implying time is physical.

Can you affirm or deny this interpretation of your meaning?

...I can't imagine the possibility of anything uncaused... — Metaphysician Undercover

Does this incline you to think time has a cause?

But I don't know what you mean by saying time is "metaphysical". — Metaphysician Undercover

Does the following train of thought reflect your thinking: Since time predates God and God created the material world of physics, time must be something other than physical.

I would say "God is self-caused" is incoherent because it would mean that God is prior to Himself in time, and that seems to be contradictory. — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. God is not self-caused. Does God have a cause?

If God is actual, time must predate God, because any act requires time. — Metaphysician Undercover

Okay. Time predates God. And God created the material universe.

So, time before God was metaphysical and there were no material things?

Okay. God can only act within time.

So, outside of time God cannot exist?

Why have you replaced my word, "matter" with "substance"? — Metaphysician Undercover

No important reason. I'm accustomed to form and substance as a set. I perceive form and matter as being interchangeable.

It's true substance has a meaning other than matter. It can mean quality.

Do you think quality has form? More generally, do you think abstractions have form?

Any act requires time to occur. — Metaphysician Undercover

Self-creation of God took time to occur?

that God is prior to time... is inconsistent with the idea of God having actual existence... — Metaphysician Undercover

Time predates God?

Are you perhaps talking about, say, an interaction between two hypercubes? — ucarr

No, definitely not, that kinda stuff is above me pay grade mate, but look at the underlined term in your sentence. — Agent Smith

So far I've gotta wild speculation about what you're suggesting here. Could it be you're suggesting cardinality in 4-space is categorically different from what it is in 3-space? Are we looking at a difference such that hypercubes don't proliferate in the same way cubes proliferate?

:up: You seem to be on the right track given what I know. — Agent Smith

Thank-you. I need your scrutiny. May it continue.

I'm afraid I don't understand where the paradox is in 4D hypercubes. — PhilosophyRunner

There's no paradox in 4D hypercubes, 3D cubes, 2D parallelograms, 1D lines, 0D points.

Paradox appears when, for example, a 3D configuration tries to contain a 4D configuration. Frege did this conceptually when he conceived of the set of all sets not members of themselves.

One of the cruxes of my claim is that paradox appears as a symptom of a border crossing by a higher dimensional configuration into the realm of a lower dimensional configuration.

• Another way to say this is to say a paradox is a higher-order dimensional configuration in collapsed state within a matrix lower than itself.

That such boundaries exist between levels of dimensional configurations is evidence that our universe is metaphysically configured in ascending steps of upwardly dimensional configurations.

Note - Meta, as in metaphysical, doesn't mean immaterial_spiritual. It just means higher-order. For example, a meta-narrative, being higher-order than narrative, contains narrative as a subset plus more. So metaphysics herein means a bigger set that contains physics as a subset.

A very stretched metaphor, at best; not an equivalence. — Banno

The parallelism of metaphor and the identity of math are distinct.

You have an identity. I'm guessing you think you cannot be in two locations simultaneously. It goes beyond a real limitation of our 3D reality. If we imagine an instance when you are in two different locations simultaneously within our 3D reality, that means the unique you -- not your and your twin -- is in Location A and the unique you is in Location B. This simultaneity of unique you in two different locations at once compels us to say: you are in Location A and you are not in Location A; you are in Location B and you are not in Location B. If you and not-you are simultaneous, then you are yourself and not yourself; in this example bi-directionally. This is not parallelism. This is paradoxical identity.

Russell's paradox lead to further developments in logic, not to its demise. — Banno

You're refuting a claim never made.

Striking resemblance to paraconsistent logic I must say. However, wouldn't the analogy work better if we take two things rather than one thing doing weird stuff in spacetime? — Agent Smith

Are you perhaps talking about, say, an interaction between two hypercubes?

You got it! Yes. That's the gist of my argument. — ucarr

:lol: I'm not sure how exactly though. — Agent Smith

If you haven't watched unrestricted axiom of comprehension please humor me and do so. The brilliant Jeffery Kaplan presents a cogent argument declaring that the problem of unrestricted comprehension of sets is ongoing; ZFC has not resolved the problem.

I see how paradoxes can extend logic, contrary to how they were traditionally viewed, as destructive to logic. — Agent Smith

You got it! Yes. That's the gist of my argument. — ucarr

So back to my original question, what are dimensions doing in set theory? What is a dimension here? — Banno

...the set of all sets not members of themselves. — ucarr

This set, as shown by Russell, leads to a paradoxical conclusion such that the set of all sets not members of themselves is simultaneously a member of itself and not a member of itself.

We can take this paradox and cast it into another, equivalent form: being in two places at the same time which means an object is simultaneously itself and not itself.

Since a hypercube, being 4D, has 3D boundaries, it occupies four distant 3D locations, i.e., the same object in four places simultaneously. This type of spatial expansion, i.e., spatial dimension, deals a fatal blow to logical consistency at the level of 3D spatial expansion. At the level of 4D spatial expansion, logical consistency, i.e., one object being in two places at once is natural not fatal.

From these ruminations we see clearly the direct linkage binding logic and spatial dimensions. Conceptually speaking, logic, which is continuity, concerns itself figuratively with dimensional expansion in the form of an expansion of logical inferences.

Physically speaking, the logic that grounds the math that measures spatially extended objects, when confronted with simultaneous occupation of two different locations at the level of 3D, descends into paradox. This is, however, a simple case of dimensional expansion (symbolic and literal) butting up against a boundary. My theory argues that said boundary is not impassable. One need simply realize paradox is a signpost signaling a boundary for set theoretical logic within a specific matrix of dimensional expansion. My concomitant theory that our physical universe is configured in dimensional matrices that progress in steps resolves the impasse with recourse to ascension to a higher-dimensional matrix.

If you haven't watched unrestricted axiom of comprehension please humor me and do so. The brilliant Jeffery Kaplan presents a cogent argument declaring that the problem of unrestricted comprehension of sets is ongoing; ZFC has not resolved the problem.

You got it! Yes. That's the gist of my argument.

Overview – We’re examining the form/substance relationship. The important questions of the role of time, persistence and God are also thrown into the mix.

...what we find is... matter with form... — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. Our empirical experience of reality always finds form and substance interwoven. Do you have any empirical experience of form and substance in separation?

I argue that: form without substance is an unreachable abstraction; substance without form is an unintelligible chaos. This leads to the claim that form and substance are essential attributes of existence.

There is the question “Does language, by naming them separately, artificially separate form and substance?” If this is the case, then probably debating issues that separate them is just an undecidable word game. Each side can make endless arguments for their priority, respectively, thus demonstrating their equivalence WRT priority.

By this line of reasoning, destroy but one wheel and forevermore the wheel can never reappear. — ucarr

Let me make sure we’re not sinking into a type/token confusion here.

In my above quote, I’m talking about destruction of form of wheel as a generality, as a type of form. That means destruction of all possible actualizations of said form. After such a destruction – which I think not possible – no particular, empirically real wheel could ever appear.

Each object, wheel in your example, is unique, with a proper identity all to itself, as indicated by the law of identity — Metaphysician Undercover

Your above quote tells me you’re talking about form of wheel as a token and not as a type.

By materialist principles the concept of "time" is tied to the activities of material things. If material things are moving, time is passing. Therefore under this conception of "time" there is no time without material things. God however, being the creator or cause, of material things, must be prior to material things and is therefore "outside of time" according to this conception of "time". That of course appears to be incoherent, to have something (God) which is prior in time, (as the cause of time), to time itself. — Metaphysician Undercover

In making your argument here, you’re presupposing God is in time and, moreover, that time WRT God is insuperable. You need firstly to establish the logical necessity of this supposition. If you can do this you will then be in position to establish the logical necessity of “God prior to time” being incoherent.

But this just demonstrates that there is a problem with the materialist conception of "time". When "time" is tied to the material existence of things, in that way, the possibility of time which is prior to the occurrence of material things is ruled out. Then the actuality (form) which is necessarily prior to material objects as the cause of their existence, is rendered unintelligible, as "an act" without time is incoherent. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is Platonic idealism. At its center stands Plato’s realm of ideal forms, of which material likenesses within the everyday world are imperfect and transient copies.

Clearly, you think tokens of form can be destroyed, but not the postulated Platonic types from which they’re supposedly derived.

This throws us into examination of the “essence precedes existence” premise.

As a metaphysician, you’re a Platonist, an objective idealist.

So, you think time is metaphysical in the sense of immaterial. Also, you’re a dualist in the sense of immaterial things, forms, being the causes of material objects.

Once God is confined to time, some questions arise: “Did time precede God?” “If time precedes God, doesn’t that imply God has a cause other than God?” “If God and time are co-eternal, doesn’t that imply time was not caused by God, a contradiction of God as creator of all?”

The unrestricted axiom of comprehension in set theory states that to every condition there corresponds a set of things meeting the condition: (∃y) (y={x : Fx}).

For example, the set of all sets—the universal set—would be {x | x = x}.

Central to my argument is: the set of all sets not members of themselves.

...when we talk about material objects we are talking about matter with form, and form is what is created and destroyed. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is interesting and insightful. I don't think I would ever think of it.

form is what is created and destroyed — Metaphysician Undercover

Does form exist without substance (matter)? This would have to be the case if form is destroyed and matter not. However, if this is the case, then a given form, once destroyed, could never reappear at a later time. By this line of reasoning, destroy but one wheel and forevermore the wheel can never reappear. You don't believe this do you?

If form and substance are inseparable, when a material object is smashed up or vaporized, is there any more destruction of one or the other? Is it that, instead, form and substance are really just reconfigured endlessly?

"God is self-caused" is incoherent because it would mean that God is prior to Himself in time, and that seems to be contradictory. — Metaphysician Undercover

Talk to just about any Christian and she will tell you God exists outside of time.

Talk to just about anyone and she'll tell you God, by definition, cannot have a creator other than God. So God, by some means, must be self-created.

self-caused — ucarr

This is synonymous both with 'uncaused to exist' (i.e. eternal) and with 'self-organizing' (e.g. vacuum fluctuations, biological evolution). — 180 Proof

This is helpful. Thank-you.

You can’t refute god, simulation, etc, or anything metaphysical really. — Darkneos

There’s a set of assumptions you have to make about the world, without which you can’t do any thing. — Darkneos

Okay. Metaphysics calls for a special type of assumption: an assumption that resembles an axiom.

Everyday assumptions are refutable: We had been working on the assumption that the murder took place after midnight. When the detectives proved it happened before midnight, our defense of the suspect collapsed.

Unrestricted comprehension within the domain of 3D leads to paradox: inconsistency. Unrestricted comprehension across the duet of 3D_4D leads to expansion of hypercubic space with preservation of consistency. No paradox and no need to rejigger the rule.

While we're talking about it, got any idea what a 4D paradox looks like?

What are dimensions doing in set theory? — Banno

With the above help from jgill, I acknowledge the authority of your point, Banno.

Frege and Russell wanted to reduce math to {first-order logic + set theory} by declaring that numbers-as-numbers are sets: the number 4, for example is a set.

The first rule of set theory: unrestricted comprehension, Russell showed, leads to paradox.

The set-theoretical rule of restricted comprehension, an adjustment configured by Russell and others, aims to return math and set theory to consistency.

Kaplan, in the video for the first link in my OP, argues that mathematicians cannot effect this return to consistency. He shows that the predication of grammatical logic, like the set-theoretical logic of math, ends in the same paradox. He adds that working around it with restricted boundaries declared by fiat does nothing to change this.

The gist of my OP is my argument for recognizing the first-order logical consistency of unrestricted comprehension by utilizing the ascending sequence of dimensional complexes as steps that collectively establish said consistency.

The crux of the steps argument is the premise that paradox is the binder that connects the steps and preserves consistency across them.

If each step is a domain, then the boundary of a given domain is reached when a boundary definition, such as the set of all sets not members of themselves, contains paradox. The paradox tells us we have reached a dimension of higher-order than the scope of the domain and therefore, to preserve consistency, we must expand the collapsed dimension. This expansion moves us up to the next higher domain (step) of dimensional expansion. Within this higher domain, the paradox of the previous domain is resolved by expansion of the previously collapsed dimension. For example: cubic space being in two places at once is paradox whereas hypercubic space being in two places at once is not.

Preserving the consistency of unrestricted comprehension, as you may have noticed, resembles the technique by which calculus makes approximations of negligible imprecision of irrational dimensions such as the area under a curve.

What are dimensions doing in set theory? — :sad: Banno

A set is just a collection of any type of things.

Some claim matter is neither created nor destroyed. How do you go about refuting this? — ucarr

Create or destroy some matter. — 180 Proof

Yes, sir! On it, sir!

I don't think we know enough about reality or the universe to know that all things have causes or even what causality amounts to. — Tom Storm

I agree with you. Reality? Whew! It's one of the important reasons I go to bed every night. "I don't wanna be conscious right now." 'Course I have dreams whilst mind is vacationing. I must say, however, my nightmares are few and far between. Causality: Hitchcock made a fortune blowing fog over it.

...the emotional need for universal narratives that can save humans and make sense of everything constantly overwhelms us. — Tom Storm

Yeah. It's at my throat more often than not. That's why I pay money to the sales-person. Happiness around the next bend for the price of a ticket is just exactly what I wanna hear.