"When you realize the ineffable, it is neither suffering nor bliss.

When there is nothing to meditate upon, wisdom itself is bliss.

Likewise, though thunder may evoke fear,
The falling of rain makes harvests ripen."

https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.php/Articles/Mind_Is_Empty_and_Lucid,_Its_Nature_Is_Great_Bliss

Sometimes, the vantage point makes all the difference in the world.

What do you mean here by your use of 'pluralism?' Is it that we should all remain open to the search for common ground between us, as opposed to becoming completely ossified in our own worldviews? — universeness

Yes, I think that we should pursue the avoidance of the construction of too many fences and appreciate what unites us (including but not limited to the value of the truth as one understands it and the maintenance of genuine relationships).

Well put, and perhaps we could also notice that the snake has to make effort, to climb the rope, to show that it's possible even for a snake, to reach a higher viewpoint. This is true, despite the biblical curse on its species, that they must forever slide and slither on their bellies on the ground. Keep climbing snakes! Perhaps if we humans keep doing the same, we can (metaphorically) find more common ground in higher places! — universeness

:clap:

You gotta pay them bills my friend, so I fully understand. I have the joy of being currently financially stable and retired so, I can spend more time engaging in on-line chatter. — universeness

I will show this portion of your reply to you the next time someone who belongs to my age group claims what being in one's 50s is somehow an invitation for unmitigated misery.

Yeah, I think we are still a toddler species but words from past humans such as Carl Sagan, continue to reinforce me:

"We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each new generation, asked anew with undiminished wonder. What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars."

Perhaps we will have to linger a little longer on the shores of the cosmic ocean after all.
Sorry Carl, we are just not as good as you thought we were, not quite yet anyway! — universeness

The liminal zone is invariably arresting.

I wholeheartedly agree. I have thoroughly enjoyed whatever I have managed to read so far. Unfortunately, my work schedule has become increasingly hectic over the past few months (which is why I haven't been as active here as I once was). I remain doubtful that the foreseeable future will herald a change. Nevertheless, I remain indebted to the wealth of knowledge that has been accumulated by the brilliant thinkers of this forum. I hope that this place will continue to flourish.

Not, dare I say it, quite as good as it is to have yours!

The unreal cannot hold us forever (Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, 1.3.28).

Also, thank you for your insightful answers. Unless I am mistaken, I believe that there have been Christian mystics like Eckhart and Abhishiktananda (the latter had embraced Advaita) whose teachings are similar to Advaita.

That conversation between Swami Sarvapriyananda and Dr Kastrup was truly enriching. What I, as an Indian, could gather from Dr Kastrup's words is that non-dualistic ideas and idealism in general aren't particularly popular in the West. However, the works of people like Dr Chalmers may have brought about some changes.

As a Hindu, I also hope that we will not forget the pluralism that Swami Vivekananda had espoused in his 1893 speech in Chicago. There's a growing tendency within many people these days to erect new walls. I think that this will only entomb us. Hopefully, the snake will not prevent us from seeing the rope.

Thank you for the mention. It's been a while.

I cannot possibly claim to know substantially more than the learned people here. As I have revealed to you, I am indeed a Hindu (and specifically someone who follows Advaita). If I understand correctly, people like Dr Harris, despite being atheists, also see value in the phenomenological side of Advaita (even if there are any metaphysical disagreements). It is indubitably much more about a rational exploration of the self rather than mere beliefs and arguments. Fundamentally, Advaita focuses on the transient nature of many of our identities and the deeper reality of awareness that undergirds it. Many forms of Buddhism also come close to it (though one can obviously have different interpretations of what terms like "non-self" mean, even if the experiences themselves don't reveal as many differences).

Thank you for your illuminating thoughts. I would say that while the struggle is undeniable, the good can only be frustrated to a certain point before it breaks free. This was true when we ended widespread slavery, smallpox, ubiquitous illiteracy, etc. In spite of everything, I remain optimistic that we will see progress.

Thank you for this riveting recommendation!

"I have found that life persists in the midst of destruction and, therefore, there must be a higher law than that of destruction. Only under that law would a well-ordered society be intelligible and life worth living. And if that is the law of life, we have to work it out in daily life. Wherever there are jars, wherever you are confronted with an opponent, conquer him with love. In this crude manner, I have worked it out in my life. That does not mean that all my difficulties are solved. Only, I have found that this law of love has answered as the law of destruction has never done."

—Mahatma Gandhi, YI, 1-10-1931, p.286

Thank you. :pray:

I, too, hope that we will see such people again. However, until we do, it is imperative that each person puts in their best effort. The house is built by discrete bricks.

Anything could happen! — Vera Mont

Sadly, in India, this meant that anything that was terrible could happen. What became two in 1947 was, before the 1940s and even after the elections in the 30s, thought to be one by the majority. The assassination of Mahatma Gandhi in the beginning of 1948 was another humungous blow. Brothers became enemies and war broke out over Kashmir. We were fortunate that we had an able leadership back then (led by Pandit Nehru) that was able to eventually defeat the communal forces and bring nation on the path of development.

Edit: Usually, the positives we saw in that period were linked with the Mahatma in one way or another:

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/gandhi-the-one-man-army-behind-the-great-calcutta-miracle-2646644

Well, we do not know what happened. However, I would say that someone who has begun to feel that they are going to end up in hell (I personally do not believe in an eternal hell) is unlikely to live a fulfilling life for years. Despondency, grief, and guilt gradually take over all aspects of one's being and there isn't much one can do. But by going back to the source of the problem, I believe that Mahatma Gandhi gave the man not only the chance to make the right choice, but to also give two individuals the opportunity of love that had all but evaporated in most people's lives. As I told you earlier, the future of a Muslim orphan in 1947 India was perhaps bleaker than the future of any other person. Diseases, no parents, and communal hatred increasing everywhere. From what I have read and been told about that period by some of the older people here, reaching New Delhi was a tall order for most. New York would have been almost unimaginable. And if the man had chosen to end his life due to the unbearable weight he felt, what remained of his family and relatives would have probably been condemned to death as well because of the misery they would have felt from losing two people close to their hearts as well as a pillar of strength in a deeply patriarchal society (with extremely limited economic opportunities).

Thank you the mention. I have expressed my thoughts in my previous replies. I think that if a man has come to a point when they think that they are going to hell (I do not believe in an eternal hell), it is apparent that they have been overcome with grief, despondency, and guilt. The only cure to this darkness may be going back to where it all began and making the right choices.

The India we are talking about had a life expectancy of less than 40 years, and the specific period in which this man came to Mahatma Gandhi was when the partition was happening. At this point, passangers travelling in trains were being slaughtered and life was about as valuable as a speck of dust. I believe that the situation of an orphan (especially for a Muslim orphan in a nation that barely had any decent orphanages) would not have been particularly good and risks would have been everywhere. At least by giving him the chance of being adopted, Mahatma Gandhi allowed for the existence of the possibility of not one, but two lives seeing a new day.

Humiliation does not cure hatred. — Vera Mont

I think that Mahatma Gandhi's primary aim was to generate understanding. Both communities then, and even now, often misunderstood the other and believed as if the other side was filled with evil people who were hell-bent on destroying them. Breaking this perspective was a major step towards national unity. To a great extent, he managed to succeed in his aim. Even during the height of the Pakistan movement (and the communalism of the Hindu Mahasabha), leaders such as Maulana Azad and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan stood by Mahatma Gandhi and the idea of a united India.

You're pointing to a weak foundation that prudence would dictate protecting so that the entire structure won't fall. The problem is that the foundation is weak because there are those who see no advantage in supporting it because it doesn't promote their interests. — Hanover

That is certainly the perception many have, which is what fuels the popularity of the government. At the same time, I do feel that it is possible to manipulate someone into either believing that they have an interest that they previously didn't, or to give them a "solution" that is going to cause a larger problem sooner or later. As you rightly said, challenges are inevitable. Still, I do hope that they can be met while they are manageable.

Thank you for the comment.

In our case, this isn't as much about changing the name as it is about removing one of the names (one that has been used to identify the country for centuries, including by those who fought for our freedom). Revolutions can lead to peace and progress, but they can also turn the ship towards the opposite direction. Of course, the flag alone is not enough, but in a society that is heavily influenced by symbols, it cannot be left alone either. For if it falls, it's possible that it will have enough force to form a crack into the already weak wall in front of the pole. It is true, however, that this is but the first step.

I wholeheartedly agree. I believe that there there are very few things in the world (which includes philosophy) that are "just" what they are without having any connection with something else. The giant house can be built by curiously diminutive bricks.

It's the extreme violence towards people who are not in your tribe/faith which is so shocking! — universeness

I think that the core problems are extremism and dogmatism. I remember talking with a few communists who told me about the feeling of violence that used to rise within them whenever they met a well-off person. I was especially surprised by the fact that many of these rich people had actually gone to great lengths to help these people, but the hostility remained as the distinction between "us" and the "other" was so rigid.

Edit: Also, I find it humourous that plenty of young Indians curse the socialism of Pandit Nehru and others while Swami Vivekananda, who was possibly the most influential Hindu thinker to have existed in the last two centuries (alongside Mahatma Gandhi) and who is repeatedly considered a hero by the far side of the right wing, was actually in favour of socialism.

"I am a socialist not because I think it is a perfect system, but half a loaf is better than no bread."

—https://vivekavani.com/cxii-mary-letters-swami-vivekananda/

Then again, this isn't shocking in view of the fact that they can manage to downplay the significance of the following words:

"For our own motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism and Islam — Vedanta brain and Islam body — is the only hope."

—https://www.swamivivekananda.guru/2017/02/19/vedanta-brain-and-islam-body-only-hope-for-our-motherland/

Thank you for reading the article. It does paint a rather grim picture. I believe that this portion was also very revealing:

"More than a decade ago, when Narendra Modi was a nobody, a small-time RSS pracharak trying to make it as a small-time BJP functionary, I had the privilege of interviewing him along with Achyut Yagnik, whom Modi could not fortunately recognise. (Fortunately because he knew Yagnik by name and was to later make some snide comments about his activities and columns.) It was a long, rambling interview, but it left me in no doubt that here was a classic, clinical case of a fascist. I never use the term ‘fascist’ as a term of abuse; to me it is a diagnostic category comprising not only one’s ideological posture but also the personality traits and motivational patterns contextualising the ideology.

Modi, it gives me no pleasure to tell the readers, met virtually all the criteria that psychiatrists, psycho-analysts and psychologists had set up after years of empirical work on the authoritarian personality. He had the same mix of puritanical rigidity, narrowing of emotional life, massive use of the ego defence of projection, denial and fear of his own passions combined with fantasies of violence – all set within the matrix of clear paranoid and obsessive personality traits. I still remember the cool, measured tone in which he elaborated a theory of cosmic conspiracy against India that painted every Muslim as a suspected traitor and a potential terrorist. I came out of the interview shaken and told Yagnik that, for the first time, I had met a textbook case of a fascist and a prospective killer, perhaps even a future mass murderer."

When things get as bad as described below, (Warning: only read the extract below from the article, if you want to read about another example of how savage the 'them' and 'us' mentality can manifest) can philosophers or democratic socialists or atheists or scientists, find a permanent solution to such human atrocity, committed on other humans? No god seems able to. So we only have the revulsion felt by all decent humanity, as our motivation to prevent the horrors described in the article and specifically in the extract below. — universeness

Mahatma Gandhi, as a Hindu, was able to use his religion to not only elevate himself (by taking the Hindu Vedāntic view of seeing the ultimate reality everywhere to its logical conclusion and by defending the idea of Ahimsa), but also others. It was because of this that the rioters in Bengal stopped not by guns, but by his presence.

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/gandhi-the-one-man-army-behind-the-great-calcutta-miracle-2646644

His panpsychist and panentheistic idea of God was also tied with karma. As you read in that article, the Gandhians (and Nehruvians) have been in a state of decline for a long time. While the Congress party's rule remained, they felt little need to make the ideas of Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Nehru relevant (or, to be more accurate, present them in a more relevant manner) to the new generations. I remember the way we used to study about Mahatma Gandhi in our school. Instead of attempting to grasp the man in a holistic way, all we were given were facts that were to be remembered for an exam. Inadequate understanding of the founders of any nation is dangerous, and it isn't surprising that we now see a plethora of people believing misinformation about Mahatma Gandhi. Pandit Nehru was able to steer the nation towards progress despite his desire to not let the state be associated with religion. None of this would have happened without meaningful actions. The time for change (at all levels) is now. Taking democracy for granted is not an amazing idea.

:up:

It never had the support of the majority of the Sikh population. It did rise in popularity during the 80s amongst certain Sikhs when some extremists rose in popularity (which was the height of the violence you referred to). Nowadays, the movement is primarily restricted to some individuals in the West. India has even had a Sikh Prime Minister (Dr Manmohan Singh). However, if we keep going down the path of "us" vs "them", we could reach a precarious situation. This is what people like Mahatma Gandhi understood.

As that article I shared with you is a fairly old one, please do let me know if you have any trouble accessing it.

https://www.india-seminar.com/2002/513/513%20ashis%20nandy.htm

This is an old but quite rich analysis of the person leading India right now. This was written by Ashis Nandy who is a prominent Indian political psychologist and social theorist.

Or it could give more ammunition to "decoloniality" crowd that is keen to distance India from the West and the so-called Western values in the name of saving the nation/civilisation. It's strange to me that we have reached a point where seemingly intelligent people are questioning one of the names of our country—the same name that had inspired our freedom fighters and that has reflected our nation's international identity for centuries. People come and go, but the influence of ideas (both constructive and destructive) persists. What we needed was a sincere reflection of the past that would have enabled us to weed out the negative aspects of the foreign influence while integrating that which was good. Whatever is happening, I believe that isn't wholly reasonable.

I did. I hope that we will get to the bottom of this. If true, I suppose that we can congratulate our government for making India the new Russia or China. If false, this would go down as needless controversy that battered the relationship between India and Canada.

:ok: :clap:

:100: :up:

Your reply reminded me of an old Hindi song. Here is the link to it: https://youtu.be/NufQfRt0uCQ?si=LInmOpDSe0VXy0Jh

Sadly, there aren't any subtitles, but this English translation may be somewhat helpful:

maut kabhee bhee mil saktee hai,
DEATH CAN BE MET AT ANY TIME,

lekin jeevan kal naa milegaa,
BUT LIFE WON’T BE FOUND NEXT TIME,

marne waale soch samajh le
O YOU WHO IS ABOUT TO DIE! THINK OVER,

phir tujh ko yeh, pal naa milegaa..
THEREAFTER, YOU WON’T FIND THIS MOMENT EVER!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaan.n andheraa...
DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

raat jitnee bhee sangeen hogee,
AS MUCH AS THE NIGHT IS MORBID,

subha utnee hee rangeen hogee,
THAT MUCH WILL THE MORNING BE SPLENDID!

raat jitnee bhee sangeen hogee,
AS MUCH AS THE NIGHT IS MORBID,

subha utnee hee rangeen hogee,
THAT MUCH WILL THE MORNING BE SPLENDID!

gham naa kar gar hai baadal ghaneraa,
IF THE CLOUD IS CONSIDERABLE, DON’T BE GRIEVED,

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa...
DARKNESSS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

lab pe shikwaa naa laa ashq pee le,
DON’T BRING COMPLAINT TO THE LIPS, DRINK UP THE TEAR!

jis tareh bhee ho kuchh der jee le,
WHICHEVER WAY, FOR SOME TIME MORE, WITH THE LIFE ADHERE,

lab pe shikwaa naa laa ashq pee le,
DON’T BRING COMPLAINT TO THE LIPS, DRINK UP THE TEAR!

jis tareh bhee ho kuchh der jee le,
WHICHEVER WAY, FOR SOME TIME MORE, WITH THE LIFE ADHERE,

ab ukha.Dne ko hai gham ka Deraa,
SORROW’S CAMP IS ABOUT TO SEVER

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaan.n andheraa...
DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

aa koee mil ke tadbeer soche.n,
COME, TOGETHER LET’S SOME TACTIC DEFINE,

sukh ke sapno.n kee taabeer soche.n
THE OUTCOME OF THE PLEASANT DREAMS, LET’S DIVINE,

aa koee mil ke tadbeer soche.n,
COME, TOGETHER LET’S SOME TACTIC DEFINE,

sukh ke sapno.n kee taabeer soche.n
THE OUTCOME OF THE PLEASANT DREAMS, LET’S DIVINE,

jo teraa hai vohee gham hai meraa,
THE SORROW YOU’VE IS THE SAME AS MINE,

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

Source: https://nasir-eclectic.blogspot.com/2010/05/588-rafis-philosophical-song-raat-bhar.html?m=1

It's also amusing that many of these people absolutely despise Mahatma Gandhi (the person who probably did the most to keep the country united while bringing it to freedom) and actually praise his assassin. So much for loving "Mother India". Nevertheless, hope for the truth's victory will always remain. Satyameva Jayate (truth alone triumphs) is India's national motto. Thank you for watching the documentary.

If there is a divisive ideology behind any action, then it is bound to negatively affect the prospects of unity.

Many people belonging to the right-wing deny the well-established theory of the Aryan migration and instead argue that the Aryans originated in India. This would allow them to claim that Hinduism was developed by an indigenous population (you can see why this would be important for those who have a major issue with some "foreigners").

Any individual or group who desires the society to be embroiled in such debates usually has one agenda: gaining power by vilifying a particular section of the society and acting as if one is saving the nation/community from a purportedly terrible fate.

Thank you for sharing that informative video. If you find some free time, I would once again suggest that you watch that documentary.

No news is good news. — ssu

:up: That says something about the news as well.

Unfortunately I feel there's still a long road on this same path before that better tomorrow. — ssu

A possibility nobody can rationally deny. Nonetheless, I do feel that it will not be long enough to tire out the truth completely.

This is just one more example of how a highly vocal minority can generate a big issue out of narrow personal interests. — BC

Quite true. This is precisely what is happening in many other places. If your campaign to change/remove a name is a part of a long-term plan to alter the nature of the nation itself, then questions are inevitable.

It can, but it does require concerted efforts. You're quite right about the unavoidable nature of those afflictions. May we see a better tomorrow.

This seems like it describe the whole world right now. I feel like we're in Europe in 1914 just waiting for the pistol shot. — T Clark

:up:

If you have the time, I would suggest that you have a look at this:

https://youtu.be/7DmhF_W-nrI?si=C-_ZmU-bcSurx-Rq

It is mainly about the state of our media, but what it reflects could hint at what is happening at the fundamental level of the society's consciousness.

Why not have a referendum on the issue? Do those who would have the right to vote in such, know enough about it? Would the current Indian authorities, allow the people to be fully informed of both sides of the debate, and allow enough time for people to discuss the issues involved, and make an informed choice? Referenda can be a fantastic democratic tool, but only if the voters involved cannot be easily fooled or manipulated. If that is not the case, then referenda can do more damage than good. — universeness

I would recommend that you watch this documentary:

https://youtu.be/7DmhF_W-nrI?si=C-_ZmU-bcSurx-Rq

The state of the media, and consequently of information, is not particularly good.

incredibly parochial — T Clark

The threat is beginning to mushroom. Corrective measures would have to be taken before irreparable harm is done.

Even if the opposition chose the name (and the hyper-nationalism of the ruling government that tends to portray opponents as anti-nationals may have played a role in this decision), one would have expected a mature response from people who claim to cherish the nation's rich heritage. Instead, we had to weal with words like these:

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/country-should-be-named-bharat-britishers-used-word-india-as-abuse-says-bjp-mp-harnath-singh-yadav-2023-09-05-890839

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/rajnath-singh-says-india-a-dangerous-word-slams-opposition-bloc-8924753/

The worst part is that Bharat, as one of our official names, already exists. What is being proposed is an end of a word that has been intertwined with our identity for a long time.

There it is in a nutshell: if the opposition wouldn't have came up with this smug way to portray them as INDIA, would this discussion take place. It's all and everything about this. It's just to make less petty and give it more meaning to the discussion. — ssu

Actually, the debate had already begun at one level. This step of the opposition only sped things up.

I, like BC, have no personal or political stake in this matter.

There are a few Indian people in my town, most young - in their 30s. When I asked them their thoughts about the renaming of Mumbai, they laughed and told me the people they know still call it "Bombay." Is there a generational or ethnic split between those who want to change the name and those who don't. Do some regions or ethnic groups feel more at home in India than others? — T Clark

The split, if it exists, is primarily between those who look at a large chunk of their past with suspicion and those who probably have no real issue with it or at least feel that the good outweighs the bad. The unfortunate part is that there was no real movement from the masses for a change. Much of this is being led by some individuals. Misinformation has also become a powerful problem in India. The following article provides a good analysis of the issue:

https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/09/08/india-vs-bharat-a-synonym-binary-choice-or-ideological-fixation

I understand that this might not appear to be relevant to many people, but as the world's largest nation, the path India takes will have an impact on a noteworthy percentage of humanity. Hopefully, it will not lead to unnecessary fragmentation.

So, I don't have a stake -- zero investment -- in what India or Bharat calls itself. But we will all have difficulty finding names for ourselves that are entirely founded on whichever native land we are from. "America" derives from the name of an Italian explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, who otherwise had very little to do with the matter.

"Asia" is a name derived from Greek, or maybe Assyrian, meaning "east of".

My point is that language and maps and usage are this huge accumulation of past events and persons that were mostly not rationally organized. They just happened.

Yes, we could spend the rest of our civilization's life straightening all this out. If we do, our civilization's life will be shorter because there are all these other -- far more urgent -- things that we should have attended to and didn't. — BC

True. There is practically no end to this project. And even if there could be, I am unsure if it is desirable considering the continually evolving nature of "us" and "them".