Ok, any new argument against the more pernicious aspects of theism I was musing on, based on 'how stupid their best academic theologians are, when they try to add credibility to their position using titles such as 'Religious philosopher,' is total BS because ....... @Jamal said and @180 Proof confirmed, with ........, is not going to bear fruit. :sad:

I'm tempted to say,Nothing I can think of. — jgill

Certainly hard to resist so you are forgiven for doing so.

How about an element of the empty set? — jgill

My question is does this 'mathematically' satisfy the notion?
For me, an 'element' is an existent. An empty 'set' invokes an empty container. The container is an existent. No existent can satisfy the notion of nothing, including the word 'nothing' as it is also an existent. I cannot see how there can be a valid state that we could label 'nothing.'
Nothing has no existent (which is a paradox).
The 'something from nothing' proposal makes no sense.

Ah, ok. I’m not interested in that. — Jamal

Ok, I appreciate that, as you say, nuff said.

"Theism" is a philosophical position. — 180 Proof

Ah! ok, but its religion based manifestations, consist mainly of divine directives and the establishment of divine authority via a 'church' style hierarchy. These connect to socioeconomic, political and even community/tribal hierarchies, that are invasive on the everyday lives of a majority of people on the planet, at the moment.
Does theism as a philosophical position, act as a valid support for religious doctrine?

are religious philosophers philosophers at all? — Jamal

That's a fair reduction to a concentrate, yes.

Is this somehow against the spirit of philosophy? Maybe sometimes, probably often, but not always. In any case, philosophers can be great philosophers in some ways and still have blind spots. — Jamal

I am always interested in new arguments to combat what I consider the more pernicious aspects of religion so as I commented to @180 Proof, I am musing on what philosophical counter points they might come up with against your 'maybe sometimes, probably often, but not always.'

I am all for being able to further disarm theism by explaining to theists why their efforts to employ philosophy in their arguments are pointless and futile.
I am just musing over what philosophical counter-points they might employ to try to defeat such a claim.

that there are religious philosophers shows that religion is being questioned. — Jamal

I accept that, but are you not taking another significantly controversial step, in that you imply that philosophy is unable to offer any succour to the religious person.
MY question then becomes why do some highly qualified academic theologists, choose to add philosopher or philosophy to their 'title.' They must think it adds to the credibility of the output of their field of study. Are you proposing that the title 'philosophy' or 'philosopher' does not, because it cannot, add credibility to a theological title or field of study?

Maybe. I think it's more likely, however, that a "religious philosopher" is an apologetic critic of naturalism, irreligion and/or religions (or sects) other than her own. — 180 Proof

So, that's where I am a little confused. If practicing philosophy, is to question religion and most/all philosophers ultimately conclude that religion has no valid claim to support god, as the mind behind the creation of this universe. Then it seems to me, that using any philosophical base to an apologetic critique of naturalism, irreligion or science MUST fail and the only use of philosophy for a religious person is to reveal all its fail points and force an attempt to reformat their religion into a new version that they think is more convincing.
Is philosophy then not an enemy of any religion whose members want to maintain it?
Why would any theologist ever use the additional label 'philosopher,' if it dooms them to be forever tweaking their faith, slagging off other faiths, or abandoning faith all together?

I support their freedoms. I just don't support the demand that I must conform to their beliefs and act as if it they were true. — NOS4A2

Well, firstly I think you should be debated and reasoned with as much as possible and 'demanding' you comply, should only be employed, if you are an existential threat to those you are targeting.
Your first position in the quote above seems to, in broad terms, conflict with the second, somethings gotta give in that situation or else discontent will burden your steps for a long time to come.

On top of that I just cannot believe that one can alter his sex with surgery and medication or by wearing clothing and applying makeup. — NOS4A2

They can't currently change their chromosomal sexuality or the gametes they produce but they can change their socially constructed gender, their psychological gender, their hormonal sex and their anatomical sex. 4 out of 6 aint bad for now. Certainly enough for a trans person to live a contented life. Why would you deny them that? What threat are they to YOU personally?

I think it needs to be admitted that it is all an act, of sorts. — NOS4A2

Oh come on? Do you really think trans folks would go through the absolute trauma of surgery based transition as an 'act ........ of sorts?' :roll:

As Richard Feynman (nuclear physicist) said, "Nothing is mere". Natural selection has been at work from the getgo, about 3.7 billion years. — BC

I think natural selection is not just a post-abiogenesis system, I think it has existed since the inflation/expansion began. I would of course never dispute anything scientific stated by Richard Feynman but I would have suggested 13.8 billion years. The term 'mere' has more validity and usefulness to me than the placeholder term 'nothing,' in any of their contextual uses.

How successful our fiddling with the genetic level of our own species will be remains to be seen. It is waaaay too soon to assume success. Global warming and global pollution is one of the consequences of technological proliferation. — BC

My point was not an invitation to measure the success or failure of human 'fiddling' with genetics or in our tech developments. My point is that we can do so and can therefore 'create' and 'design' and even 'usurp' aspects of natural selection. There is serious power and influence in that ability, for good or bad.

I entirely agree that trans people have the right to BE. — BC

:up:

but a rare deviation from the norm doesn't invalidate the norm. — BC

Are you implying here that natural selection demonstrates objective norms or emotive preferences?

Sex (xx, xy) is nature's most effective way of maximizing evolutionary possibilities in multicellular organisms. — BC

Sure, that's true for 'multicellular organisms' sex is useful but asexual creatures reproduce pretty well and do planets, stars or galaxies have sex? There are many more stars in the milkyway than people on the Earth. There are many more planets in the universe than there are lifeforms on Earth.
Sex as a system does not a universe make! I don't see how your point here diminishes the case FOR trans folks to have the exact same status, as all other folks.

If some species have developed other schemes, that doesn't apply to the scheme that most species exist within. — BC

Ok, but it does demonstrate that 'oranges are not the only fruit,' so I don't see why you cant accommodate trans folks in your biological world view and ensure they get equal status with anyone else, especially since you must agree that homosexuality can be accommodated, without any kind of significant threat to human reproduction rates.
If everyone was gay then the survival of our species may well be compromised but no such circumstance is likely, now or ever, yes?

I don't count transgenderism as normal, but also don't count it as problematic. Again, there is such a thing a normal, but bring abnormal isn't automatically problematic. Being born with a very deficient brain is abnormal and problematic. Being born with a very effective really smart brain is also abnormal, but not problematic. — BC

'Normal' is a very very mutable state. If a majority decide to give all trans folks the exact same status as that same 'majority,' then that will become 'normal.' This is what we are ultimately debating here imo. Normalising trans folks as full members of the human race and not a different species.

My identity is under threat because I am expected to concede my own eyes, conscience, and language in order to play along with a state of affairs I know not to be true. — NOS4A2

I think you are just being asked to consider what freedoms/restrictions you wish to support when it comes to trans folks. You seen to have already chosen, so the question becomes, are you fully cooked or could the reasoned arguments presented by the trans community make your position more flexible.
Your 'I know to be true,' are probably the most problematic words for me.

Where I live I am subject to investigation by a human rights council should I refuse to use the language they prefer, or if I refuse to treat them as the gender they are trying to express. I am forced to lie. — NOS4A2

That seems ridiculous to me. I would need full details to be sure whether or not I would support your position on the situation you face, as YOU have described it.
What actual penalties do you face for which 'refusal?'
If you are not inciting violence, then you should be able to use the language you wish, but others can certainly socially object or return any verbal disrespect you throw at them. You can't use whatever language you please here on TPF. Neither can you textually 'treat' people as you see fit here on TPF, but the only ultimate penalty you face here, is getting banned by a mighty mod. Such is hardly an existential threat.

So, is a persons claim that they are a religious philosopher, the inevitable beginning of losing/rationalising away, their religion?
Some who question religious tenets through a philosophical lens, seem to have the following choice's if the OP is true.
1. Reconfigure your religion/spawn a variety to 'try again.'
2. Reject your religion.
3. Ignore what philosophical reasoning suggests and 'keep the faith.'

Is philosophy more supportive of irreligious science compared to any affirmation it may offer the religious?
So should the pastor warn his flock. 'If you want to stay true to god, think as I say and not as one may philosophise?'

In one of the episodes of the transatlantic call-in shows I watched, one of the hosts showed pictures of folks like the trans man that Michael showed, but in a 'dignity spared' way, in various biological sex rule driven poses, in the toilet setting they were being forced to use.
They did seem absolutely ridiculous to me.
This is Arden Hart a transwoman with a penis. The person below is Katie Montgomerie another transwoman who also still has a penis (I think).


Don't you think they would look ridiculous standing in front of a male urinal, pulling up their skirt and having a pee.
Do you think women would be alarmed to see the person in Michaels picture, walk into a female toilet in the hot summertime with his top off, because he has a vagina, they don't know about?

Oh I forgot, just to complete the main hosts of the call in show, This is doctor ben (who has a vagina, shhhhhhhhhhh.)

I know this will always sound heartless BUT, significant social change ALWAYS causes fallout for a myriad of reasons. It's almost a trolly style situation or it can even get as bad as a choice between nuking two Japanese cities and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians or losing even more soldiers and civilians via a mainland invasion of the Japan that existed during WW2.

I don't think welcoming and giving full equal treatment to trans folks, within all aspects of human society, will have a destructive cost, similar to the cost of utterly defeating the rise of global fascism, that culminated in WW2. BUT there will be damage and fallout, before it all settles to a new norm.

There's a nightclub I sometimes go to where all the toilets are unisex. It's really no issue. It's a just a room with private cubicles and shared sinks to wash hands. — Michael

:clap: All trains and planes etc have unisex toilets, as do many small businesses etc. There is no suggestion that this causes increasing sexual assaults on women, by deviant men dressed up as fake trans folks.
Such deviant men/women will exist regardless of trans issues.
How many folks here find the following sign unacceptable:

If copperhead snakes are hermaphrodites and green turtles change sex, how much relevance does that have to us? — BC

The scientific method involves gathering evidence to support a posit. Using example biological sex systems, present in other species, who exist via evolution via natural selection, IS I think, a valid path to take.

The hermaphrodite exemplars present within other species in the natural world, simply provides evidence that the strictly male OR female binary model of biological sexual identity/reality is not some natural law imperative. It is merely a natural selection.

The evidence of hermaphrodite examples. within the human race, is some further evidence that a single biological sex is NOT some 'natural law,' that we are forced to ossify on.
The human race has demonstrated ability to replace natural selection (or at least compete with it) and impose our own design, at a genetic level, like we have already done with domesticated animals and plants and with our continuous proliferation of technological inventions. We are not completely restricted to the dictates of natural selection, so we are also not completely restricted to the dictates of any notion of a natural law of biological human sexuality.
It is in that space that to me, trans folks have the right to BE!

Or something out of nothing? This is a legitimate philosophical issue. — jgill

Is there a representation of nothing, that as a maths prof, you accept as meeting/satisfying its concept?
0 for example is a most definite 'something.' Use of the word 'nothing' is a definite something. There is no way to reference the concept satisfactorily imo. So, what are we left with? A simple placeholder, no more than that, just like other placeholders such as god, infinity, eternity, the omni's, etc.

which in this case are two, the revealers - god jesus and goddess saraswati. — Beena

You seem to be in communication with more than one deity. Are you polytheist? or are the names god, jesus and sarawati all different names for the single character, at the other end of your comm channel.
Where is the circle you assume in a perpetual/eternal chaos-order-chaos-order cycle, which seems more like a linear cycle to me?
Why do you assume the actual truth/facts regarding the origin of our universe is something YOU are able to KNOW as an objective truth? Especially as all you have basically claimed so far is, that I know that I know that I know god did it as it told ME so! Is that honestly all you got?

Yeah but Healthline Media, Inc. is an American website and provider of health information headquartered in San Francisco, California. It was founded in 1999, relaunched in 2006, and established as a standalone entity in January 2016.
Not the best source for understanding the terms used by the actual trans community.
Better to use something like the transatlantic call in show for such. They may fully confirm you are correct, especially doctor Ben who is med qualified and trans.

A trans man will get new prosthetic ones, if they go down the physical surgery route.

Transgender is the umbrella term that includes transsexuals — Joshs

That doesn't make sense to me, but I don't really know the accepted terminology or its preferred hierarchical order. 'Transitional' or 'trans' would seem the most appropriate umbrella term to me as the group as a whole is often referred to as 'trans people.'

I agree entirely that the surgery can lead to greater happiness, regardless of whether one believes in a biologistic or social explanation transgender, or some combination of the two. — Joshs

I think that 'general support' is what will matter most to a person going down the physical surgery route.

I thought folks here might find this interesting:
1. A clownfish has two sexes: male and female. They change from one sex to another every month or so.
Clownfish are hermaphrodites (having both male and female reproductive organs) and undergo sexual changes at around five months old. The sex change usually happens after the fish reaches three years old.

2. Hawkfish are fish that live in the ocean and have two sets of genitalia. They are known for being able to change their sex from male to female or vice versa

3. Green sea turtles are known to be the largest living species of turtle. They live in tropical waters around the world. Their lifespan is usually between 50 and 100 years.
Some scientists believe that these turtles are born male and later become female. This theory was supported by the observation that some females had testes during their lifetime.

4. Copperhead snakes are hermaphrodites, meaning they possess both male and female reproductive organs. They can change from one sex to another depending on environmental conditions.

There are 15 more such creatures here

Does this not suggest that biological sex is very mutable in a universe of natural selection and not something we need be so 'ossified' about?

Heaven revealed this to me. — Beena

How do you know that?

I said trauma and being ostracized leads to pain, confusion, and wanting "to be different" or being forced to believe you are. — Outlander

Do you have examples of trans folks expressing that they want to be different? I have heard them on-line and in call in shows, say they want to be who they are.

Why does someone 'bully' someone? — Outlander

This thread is about trans folks yes? and their identity, Not bullies and their rationale.

I appreciate your defense of the vulnerable. But there's no need to attack the messenger. — Outlander

My attack is on the message, not the messenger.

Furthermore, please do not accuse me of being 'irresponsible' and 'pushing [intolerant] imagery' again when I have in fact taken great pains to avoid doing so and know I have avoided such perfectly. — Outlander

No, your attempts to avoid what you claim you wanted to avoid fell far short of 'perfectly,' imo.

If i choose to also undergo surgery, it is not because I believe that I was born in the wrong biological body but that my social environment isn’t ready to recognize my gender without the help of obvious signaling from me that simplifies the issue for them. — Joshs

Well, as a het cis male, I don't really feel qualified to comment on the ruminations of trans folks when it comes to the reasons why a particular trans person may choose surgery.
I have now watched 6 episodes of the transatlantic call in show, so any personal interpretation I offer here would be mostly based on what I have heard stated on that show in the past.
I think the reasons that an individual trans person will 'settle on' when asked to explain why they chose the surgery route, are myriad and certainly number much more than two, even in the broadest sense.
'Born in the wrong body,' 'body dysmorphia,' is certainly involved but it seems to me there are many nuances. Doctor Ben, for example has talked about some tran men decide to keep their lower female anatomy so that they might still have children. He said he would not choose to do so but he understands those that do. There are many purely practical reasons like that, including Arden's reason related to her current role/character/job in the porn industry.

The second way of justifying surgery depends on my belief that, independent of the feedback of my social
community, I was born in the wrong body.
This belief, from the vantage of embodied approaches in psychology, is a bit incoherent, because it assumes the ability to separate physical body from psychological gender. Embodied thinking argues that the physical, the psychological and the social are intertwined so completely that any attempt to locate something like a purely physical aspect of sexuality is nonsensical. Whatever our psychological gender happens to be, this gender defines, shapes , animates and performs our biological sex through how we walk , talk, gesture , perceive and sense our body. The body only exists as what it is in the way it is used , animated , performed. We can never be in the
wrong body because we are not in a body like a thing in a container, we enact a body. — Joshs

I am sure actual trans folks could answer this much better that anything I could offer but I can offer this.
The first caller last night asked the hosts to explain the difference between biological sex and gender.
They have had this question many times. Ben talked about the physical aspects of biological sex that can be altered and those that cant. I remember he mentioned chromosomal sex, hormonal sex, anatomical sex, gametes. Chromosomal sex and gametes were the only two (I think) he said could not be currently 'transitioned,' via surgery or medication.

I do suspect, however, that if the first approach is right, then eventually trans surgery will fade away as the social structure becomes more aware and accepting of gender fluidity, and one no longer has to feel one is born into the wrong social body. — Joshs

I think transgender and transexual are two quite different goals.
I think there are many trans folk that feel they have to do the physical transitions that they can do, in order to become 'happy' or 'true' or perhaps even 'real.'

Above came as a revelation to me from heaven. — Beena

Get back in contact with them and tell them that

We have the giant infinite emptiness that is nothing — Beena

Is something, and not nothing. Perhaps you will help them with their obvious confusion. :halo:

Read the article about Daniels System 1 and System 2 thinking.
I did not see any strong connections to our discussion, was there a main summary point from his system 2 category that YOU find strongly contends with my suggestion that

there may be aspects of human consciousness that no 'created' system can reproduce. — universeness

Btw, I came across this:
A new study finds that moths can remember things they learned when they were caterpillars — even though the process of metamorphosis essentially turns their brains and bodies to soup. The finding suggests moths and butterflies may be more intelligent than scientists believed.
From here

If you're not one of the popular girls or boys you're somehow less of a girl or boy. This is an observable psychological phenomenon. Where insults such as "coward", "loser", or "freak" come from. — Outlander

This exists regardless of personal sexual identity, in fact most 'bully' situations I witnessed or heard about during my time as a child or during my career as a teacher, had nothing to do with sexual identity, some did, but very few, by comparison.

I don't want the State or someone representative of the State to start running at them with a bottle of pills in one hand and a scalpel in the other telling a small child "there's something wrong with them" and as their parent I'm either morally, or if some have their way, perhaps even legally, abusive if I stand in the way of such. — Outlander

That is such an overblown emotive set of images that do nothing but add fuel to the flames, especially when you are in fact offering nothing more than exaggerated piffle, in the above quote.

So as to avoid a misdiagnosis and as a result unnecessary series of life-changing medical procedures that only worsen or perhaps even create a condition that could otherwise be remedied or very well never existed in the first place. — Outlander

Last night I watched the recent episode of the transatlantic call-in show, I cited earlier in this thread.
The trans man called 'doctor Ben,' who hosted this episode. Recently completed his PHD and changed his on-line name from 'student doctor Ben' to 'Doctor Ben.'
He talked about just 'completing' his 'top surgery,' and how he could not currently lift his arms above his head or take a bath etc and he is going through a myriad of emotions, including regretting getting the surgery done, especially due to the pain he was currently going through due to the 'drains' that were still in him. His co-host 'Arden Hart,' a trans woman said that she felt the exact same way, when she had 'drains' but she felt wonderful after the drains were removed and she had taken another important step towards who and what she wanted to become. As far as I could tell from their exchange, neither of them have had 'bottom surgery.' They both went on to explain that such surgery is frightening and soooooo expensive and sooooooo painful and soooooo disruptive to your life that many trans folks just decide that on balance, they would rather live with the anatomy they have, than go through what they would have to go through to fully transition. They also talked about those trans folks they knew who have fully transitioned and the doubts, regrets, trauma's they went through along the way, but that they are now so much happier. Arden (who is the current partner of the well known atheist debater Matt Dillahunty) went on to explain that she makes her main living in the porn industry and that is the 'pragmatic' reason why she has not had 'bottom surgery.'
It seemed to me that these folks were explaining very clearly that choosing to sexually transition your body via surgery was very traumatic indeed. They were certainly not enthusiastically recommending bottles of pills and surgery knives as a 'simple solution' to any minor who was having a sexual identity crisis. In that show, during calls, they further explained some details about what age you had to be and what consents were required for a minor to undergo any treatment which is deemed 'irreversible.'
So again the imagery you are pushing is irresponsible, exaggerated and untrue.

Your calm input is always welcome in such a stormy issue. It's just a pity that so many humans are still so obsessed with fiercely conserving traditional binary sexual identity or are obsessed with fiercely declaring the 'boundaries' of their own sexual identity, as a kind of 'this far AND NO FURTHER' dictate. My personal het cis identity is NOT threatened/compromised/challenged/offended/abused etc by the non-binary sexual identity of a minority group of folks who are just trying to be who and what they are.

Too much in your link for me to read at the moment. When I have read it, I will comment on it.

My friends daughter is 14 and she now wants to be referred to as he and his chosen male name.
My friend and his wife are now going through a separation. I don't know if this issue has caused/aggravated the troubles between them. They have a second daughter.
They are now at the stage of discussing hormonal treatments, as a first stage.
He told me some of the details involved. It is a very slow paced process with many professionals involved.
Getting the required appointments/referrals within the current NHS crisis in the UK is greatly adding to the stresses involved. A very complicated situation for any family to deal with.
I know my friend is very quick to anger/fury at the moment when 'outsiders' offer him their general opinions on trans issues. A powder keg of emotions!

Do we "retain knowledge" of our time as blastocysts? — 180 Proof

I would need to concentrate to see if I have any such stored memories. I will try hard this weekend after 1 or 10 single malts!

I imagine crawling is, at best, useless for flying. — 180 Proof

They have to land sometimes! I have witnessed landed butterfly's walk/crawl!

Maybe butterflies keep caterpillars around just to study them (e.g. "butterflygenesis") or for shitz-n-giggles (à la reality tv, stupid pet tricks, etc) or both? — 180 Proof

No caterpillars = no butterfly's. As I suggested before, there may be aspects of human consciousness that no 'created' system can reproduce.

Do you have evidence that the butterfly retains no knowledge of its time as a caterpillar?
Might the butterfly maintain much of the 'mind' of the caterpillar?

I as a vulnerable gay man from a homophobic religious cult and autistic could have sterilised myself and have had my genitals severed like Ritchie Herrin and ShapeShifter gay male detransitioners. Whilst you helped convince me I was a woman trapped in a man's body. It is ludicrous and frightening and you are clearly not listening. — Andrew4Handel

This is a step too far for me to comment on this issue any further to you Andrew.
You need to discuss such with those better qualified than I.

and are males and females with disorders of development. — Andrew4Handel

Is this not still a claim made by anti-gay individuals, who suggest gay men have a genetic disorder of development? I would assume you would find such a claim offensive, yes?

Medical treatments are determined by medical need, not legal rights. How you manage to draw this inference is a complete mystery to me. — Pantagruel

Only legal operations/medical processes are allowed. Only legal medications can be used.

So maybe there needs to be at least one single-occupancy locking bathroom at every public facility. — Pantagruel

Or every future public toilet can be built as a series of individual lockable units, with a WC and a small sink and mirror. No more gender specific toilets. Would that not solve the problem?

Ultimately, populations thrive in a society based upon their presence, not their publicity. — Pantagruel

I am a socialist/secular humanist, so accommodating the needs and wishes of as many people in a community as possible, remains the main goal.

A quick google search produced, From Wiki:
True hermaphroditism represents 5% of all sex disorder differentiations.
The exact number of confirmed cases is uncertain, but by 1991 approximately 500 cases had been confirmed.
It has also been estimated that more than 525 have been documented.

If you have better sources, you should cite them, but confirming the scientific rigour involved can always be problematic for us amateurs. My field of speciality is Computing Science, not human biology and human gametes.

The existential threat is to the truth and the honest use of language. — Andrew4Handel

You mean YOUR truth and what YOU claim is honest use of language.

Gas lighting us that if we see a man enter a womens toilet he is actually a woman so we no longer trust our senses and protective instincts. — Andrew4Handel

How many biological parts must a man transitioning to a woman remove/replace before you will accept them as a woman. I assume that you know why men have nipples. We all start off female in the womb!

Calling men "woman of the year" and sports woman of the year after having a grossly unfair advantage over women. — Andrew4Handel

I have heard there may be a solution to this based on testosterone reduction treatments but I don't know the details

Calling women cervix havers and pregnant people and black birthing bodies. Calling same sex attraction a genital preference. All of which have been done. — Andrew4Handel

Who is using these terms that so offend you? Trans folks? Being trans does not prevent you from being a plonker at times.

What classifies as affecting me personally? — Andrew4Handel

YOU decide!

The Rwandan genocide didn't affect me personally, nor the war in Yemen, HIV, famine or rape. — Andrew4Handel

These did and do affect me personally as they affect me mentally.

but there are many threats from gender, to my use of language, my future employment, to my neices and nephews bodily integrity, — Andrew4Handel

Yes, there are threats involved, so its important to tread with care. What if one of your nieces or nephew's want's to transition their sex? Would that change your stance?

What is your biological reality or legal status imperative for such folks as hermaphrodites who internally produce male and female gametes (eggs and sperm)?