My identity is under threat because I am expected to concede my own eyes, conscience, and language in order to play along with a state of affairs I know not to be true. — NOS4A2

I think you are just being asked to consider what freedoms/restrictions you wish to support when it comes to trans folks. You seen to have already chosen, so the question becomes, are you fully cooked or could the reasoned arguments presented by the trans community make your position more flexible.
Your 'I know to be true,' are probably the most problematic words for me.

Where I live I am subject to investigation by a human rights council should I refuse to use the language they prefer, or if I refuse to treat them as the gender they are trying to express. I am forced to lie. — NOS4A2

That seems ridiculous to me. I would need full details to be sure whether or not I would support your position on the situation you face, as YOU have described it.
What actual penalties do you face for which 'refusal?'
If you are not inciting violence, then you should be able to use the language you wish, but others can certainly socially object or return any verbal disrespect you throw at them. You can't use whatever language you please here on TPF. Neither can you textually 'treat' people as you see fit here on TPF, but the only ultimate penalty you face here, is getting banned by a mighty mod. Such is hardly an existential threat.

It is merely a natural selection. — universeness

As Richard Feynman (nuclear physicist) said, "Nothing is mere". Natural selection has been at work from the getgo, about 3.7 billion years. You think we're ready to take over? I don't.

The human race has demonstrated ability to replace natural selection (or at least compete with it) and impose our own design, at a genetic level, like we have already done with domesticated animals and plants and with our continuous proliferation of technological inventions. — universeness

How successful our fiddling with the genetic level of our own species will be remains to be seen. It is waaaay too soon to assume success. Global warming and global pollution is one of the consequences of technological proliferation.

I entirely agree that trans people have the right to BE. — BC

:up:

but a rare deviation from the norm doesn't invalidate the norm. — BC

Are you implying here that natural selection demonstrates objective norms or emotive preferences?

Sex (xx, xy) is nature's most effective way of maximizing evolutionary possibilities in multicellular organisms. — BC

Sure, that's true for 'multicellular organisms' sex is useful but asexual creatures reproduce pretty well and do planets, stars or galaxies have sex? There are many more stars in the milkyway than people on the Earth. There are many more planets in the universe than there are lifeforms on Earth.
Sex as a system does not a universe make! I don't see how your point here diminishes the case FOR trans folks to have the exact same status, as all other folks.

If some species have developed other schemes, that doesn't apply to the scheme that most species exist within. — BC

Ok, but it does demonstrate that 'oranges are not the only fruit,' so I don't see why you cant accommodate trans folks in your biological world view and ensure they get equal status with anyone else, especially since you must agree that homosexuality can be accommodated, without any kind of significant threat to human reproduction rates.
If everyone was gay then the survival of our species may well be compromised but no such circumstance is likely, now or ever, yes?

I don't count transgenderism as normal, but also don't count it as problematic. Again, there is such a thing a normal, but bring abnormal isn't automatically problematic. Being born with a very deficient brain is abnormal and problematic. Being born with a very effective really smart brain is also abnormal, but not problematic. — BC

'Normal' is a very very mutable state. If a majority decide to give all trans folks the exact same status as that same 'majority,' then that will become 'normal.' This is what we are ultimately debating here imo. Normalising trans folks as full members of the human race and not a different species.

I support their freedoms. I just don't support the demand that I must conform to their beliefs and act as if it they were true.

My mind is quite closed on the topic of gender and sex. The supposed fluidity of it, I think, recognizes the ease to which people can choose costumes or defy expectations in society; but the surgery aspect proves just how solid and binary it all really is. On top of that I just cannot believe that one can alter his sex with surgery and medication or by wearing clothing and applying makeup. I think it has to be admitted that, on the whole, changing gender can only go so far as engaging in acts of deception and mimicry. I think it needs to be admitted that it is all an act, of sorts.

As Richard Feynman (nuclear physicist) said, "Nothing is mere". Natural selection has been at work from the getgo, about 3.7 billion years. — BC

I think natural selection is not just a post-abiogenesis system, I think it has existed since the inflation/expansion began. I would of course never dispute anything scientific stated by Richard Feynman but I would have suggested 13.8 billion years. The term 'mere' has more validity and usefulness to me than the placeholder term 'nothing,' in any of their contextual uses.

How successful our fiddling with the genetic level of our own species will be remains to be seen. It is waaaay too soon to assume success. Global warming and global pollution is one of the consequences of technological proliferation. — BC

My point was not an invitation to measure the success or failure of human 'fiddling' with genetics or in our tech developments. My point is that we can do so and can therefore 'create' and 'design' and even 'usurp' aspects of natural selection. There is serious power and influence in that ability, for good or bad.

I support their freedoms. I just don't support the demand that I must conform to their beliefs and act as if it they were true. — NOS4A2

Well, firstly I think you should be debated and reasoned with as much as possible and 'demanding' you comply, should only be employed, if you are an existential threat to those you are targeting.
Your first position in the quote above seems to, in broad terms, conflict with the second, somethings gotta give in that situation or else discontent will burden your steps for a long time to come.

On top of that I just cannot believe that one can alter his sex with surgery and medication or by wearing clothing and applying makeup. — NOS4A2

They can't currently change their chromosomal sexuality or the gametes they produce but they can change their socially constructed gender, their psychological gender, their hormonal sex and their anatomical sex. 4 out of 6 aint bad for now. Certainly enough for a trans person to live a contented life. Why would you deny them that? What threat are they to YOU personally?

I think it needs to be admitted that it is all an act, of sorts. — NOS4A2

Oh come on? Do you really think trans folks would go through the absolute trauma of surgery based transition as an 'act ........ of sorts?' :roll:

I personally know 3 trans people. 2 were born male, one was born female. Of the two who were born male, one has done full upper & lower surgery, the other only upper. The person born female has done some upper surgery and takes hormone treatments.

For all three people, they will tell you that they always knew since early childhood that somehow they were different - and that it wasn't until they were teenagers that they became aware of the trans movement and they all realized that this was who they are.

I would also add that my wife worked for years in a pre-K center (that's ages 3-5) and they had several kids who were clearly trans even at that young age.

My point here is that this is not some sort of performance/act - this is genuine.

a rare deviation from the norm doesn't invalidate the norm. Sex (xx, xy) is nature's most effective way of maximizing evolutionary possibilities in multicellular organisms — BC

Phenotypic expression can’t be reduced to genotype, and even the understanding of genotype is much more complex than treating it in isolation as a chemical code. As a result, we have to appreciate that the ‘norms’ of biological sex , as is tru of all norms, is a post-hoc abstraction derived from a population of unique singularities. No two gendered persons are alike in the expression of their gender , and since psychological gender animates and co-determines the performance of biological sex, the same is true of the latter.

You did not preserve the substance of my post and show how women's rights and identity are not under threat.
— Andrew4Handel

What does this have to do with trans people using their preferred bathrooms? — Michael

I am not talking about peoples bathroom preferences and I don't know why you think I am. I am a male I do not get a choice of which which bathroom to use I am legally obliged to use the male or disabled bathrooms.

We are talking about legal lies here and giving men access to women's identities is a legal and existential lie being forced on us

Women should not have to accomodate men in their spaces and awards because these men have chosen to feminise themselves.

As a boy at school I was beaten up by other boys in the toilets and changing rooms which means traumatic memories for life. I never thought I should be able to use the girls facilities were girls are undressing. I hated showering after sports and being naked around other boys but we were forced to and then people would jump on me and another boy and beat us up.
Girls are going through puberty and experiencing their periods and the toilet is privacy and refuge. As a vulnerable child constantly experiencing male violence I never thought my vulnerability entitled me to womens things and I envied girls at times.

But no one can pull the vulnerability card with me I am gay male who grew up in a religious cult being told my sexuality was evil, also autistic and bullied and ostracised by people throughout child.

Exactly how many of the moderators here are gay, female, autistic and so on?

But the principle and philosophic point is that you can't call somethings a woman's right, space or identity if you include provably biological men in its category. Unless you can show that is possible.

Oh come on? Do you really think trans folks would go through the absolute trauma of surgery based transition as an 'act ........ of sorts? — universeness

To be fair, if Judith Butler is right—and I think she broadly is—the gender expression of trans people indeed is an act of sorts. But then, so is the gender expression of cisgender people.

Never heard of Judith Butler but did a quick google search and read from wiki:
Judith Pamela Butler[3] (born February 24, 1956) is an American philosopher and gender studies writer whose work has influenced political philosophy, ethics, and the fields of third-wave feminism,[4] queer theory,[5] and literary theory.[6] In 1993, Butler began teaching at the University of California, Berkeley, where they have served, beginning in 1998, as the Maxine Elliot Professor in the Department of Comparative Literature and the Program of Critical Theory. They are also the Hannah Arendt Chair at the European Graduate School (EGS).

If what you are saying can be boiled down to 'we are all actors,' then perhaps Shakespeare will suffice:


So trans folks can stand on the universal stage, with the rest of us, as fellow actors of equal status and value.

So trans folks can stand on the universal stage, with the rest of us, as fellow actors of equal status and value. — universeness

Well put!

We are talking about legal lies here and giving men access to women's identities is a legal and existential lie being forced on us

Women should not have to accomodate men in their spaces and awards because these men have chosen to feminise themselves. — Andrew4Handel

It's probably important to try to bracket off personal experiences and trauma from an understanding of a broader social issue. While lived experience can sometimes be a helpful frame, it can also colour and distort a person's views.

In my work life, I have only ever used unisex bathrooms. In over 30 years it has never been an issue.

For my money it is important in life not to be too concrete about human behaviour. I see trans women (and some men) at work. Have done for many years. They quite properly use women's services and bathrooms without incident or problems. Functionally it works. Humans have the capacity to be inclusive and accommodating.

Sure, anyone can dig out some horror stories - as you can about any human behavior. But a deliberate focus only on examples where things might have gone wrong does a disservice to any social issue.

:up:

For what it's worth Andrew, the experiences you describe in your youth are horrific.
I wish they had not happened to you.

If a majority decide to give all trans folks the exact same status as that same 'majority,' then that will become 'normal.' — universeness

They won't be normal, they will be as equal as the majority make it, within the legal framework. Complete equality, within the legal system or not, generally doesn't prevail. ("All are equal before the law" is good rhetoric, but all sorts of barriers arise that prevent "perfect equality".)

trans folks as full members of the human race and not a different species. — universeness

I haven't heard anybody (anywhere) deny their humanity or describe them as a different species.

Does it make a difference if a clerk, an administrator, a lawyer, a professor, etc. is trans? I don't think it matters. does it make a difference if a M to F trans athlete brings a male body's advantage to compete with women? Many women think that circumstance is unfair.

Gender dysphoria is no act. I have no doubt it is painful and debilitating, and that those who deal with it deserve respect and compassion.

The act is in the expression, not the dysphoria. My problem is their biology betrays their claims and their desires. The fact that their gender expression is incongruous with their sex means quite simply that their feelings and expressions don't conform to the fact of their sex—or it represents some other, hidden biological fact, like neuroanatomy.

In short, the dysphoria is the problem, not the sex. All medications, surgeries, and therapy ought to be used to rectify the one and not to permanently damage the other. It's a humanitarian issue, too. Should we arrive at a cure, who are we going to blame for convincing a vulnerable people to take such drastic, and physically altering measures, from which there is no return?

My point here is that this is not some sort of performance/act - this is genuine. — EricH

The nativist view posits that individuals are born either biological women or men, with the expectation that their gender expressions naturally align with their biological sexes. While some nativists acknowledge that gender dysphoria may be innate, they often label it as an anomaly.

On the other hand, the social constructivist perspective suggests that gender expressions merely reflect societal norms relating to sex. Some even argue that biological sexes, not just gender expressions, are socially constructed.

However, I believe that both views are rooted in shared assumptions that generate a false dichotomy.

Indeed, the modes of gender expression available within a society or social group are socially constituted, representing prevailing norms. The arbitrariness or justification of these norms can be as varied as those of other societal norms, such as laws, ethical principles, customs, and etiquette.

Judith Butler's performative view, as I understand it, is not necessarily a radical social constructivist stance. Rather, it can be reconciled with the idea that innate biological tendencies guide individuals towards certain gender expressions during their "normal" development. However, this does not imply that the specific modes of these expressions are innate or biologically predetermined. The modes themselves still are provided and shaped by the individual's culture and society.

When an individual's subjectivity or spontaneous gender expression conflicts with societal norms, labeling this as an anomaly can be seen as a form of naturalistic fallacy. The fact that a majority of individuals in a society naturally align with or enact a particular social norm does not, on its own, provide broad justification for that norm. This majority alignment, however, does underscore that maintaining the status quo or conformity can often be more convenient and less disruptive. Yet this is a limited form of justification, one that frequently neglects the needs or rights of individuals and minority groups.

Such broad justifications can easily veer into oppressive territory, particularly when they are justified through appeals to biological essentialism, another manifestation of the naturalistic fallacy.

or it represents some other, hidden biological fact, like neuroanatomy. — NOS4A2

There is some evidence of this. See Brain Sex Differences Related to Gender Identity Development: Genes or Hormones?

The aforementioned studies, although very heterogeneous, provide data supporting the biological bases of the psychosexual development. In particular, post-mortem and in vivo neuroimaging studies strongly suggest the existence of a sexual dimorphic brain, i.e., slight differences in brain anatomy and functioning between the two sexes. It is less clear how such brain structures become the substrate of sex differences in cognition and behaviour. This matter has been mainly investigated through the examination of specific populations, such as subjects with gender incongruence and intersex individuals: gender identity is one of the most sex-specific human trait, and many studies show how brain sexually dimorphic structures are often in line with gender identity rather than with sex assigned at birth. Research on this field has reported a possible organizational-activational role of sex hormones: in fact, studies on people with intersexual conditions highlight the role of prenatal and pubertal sex hormones in the determination of gender identity and other sex-specific cognitive traits.

Although as the study says, this shouldn't be misconstrued as saying that there's such a thing as a male and female brain.

In short, the dysphoria is the problem, not the sex. All medications, surgeries, and therapy ought to be used to rectify the one and not to permanently damage the other. It's a humanitarian issue, too. Should we arrive at a cure, who are we going to blame for convincing a vulnerable people to take such drastic, and physically altering measures, from which there is no return? — NOS4A2

Surgery often is the "cure" (or at least a beneficial treatment). See Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes:

In this article, we present the largest study to our knowledge to date on associations between gender-affirming surgeries and mental health outcomes. Our results demonstrate that undergoing gender-affirming surgery is associated with improved past-month severe psychological distress, past-year smoking, and past-year suicidal ideation. Our findings offer empirical evidence to support provision of gender-affirming surgical care for TGD people who seek it. Furthermore, this study provides evidence to support policies that expand and protect access to gender-affirming surgical care for TGD communities.

And I suspect that if society were more accepting of transgender people then improvements in mental health after surgery would be even greater.

Indeed, the modes of gender expression available within a society or social group are socially constituted, representing prevailing norms. The arbitrariness or justification of these norms can be as varied as those of other societal norms, such as laws, ethical principles, customs, and etiquette. — Pierre-Normand

That makes sense. The use of certain words such as "he", "she", "man", and "woman", as well as the types of clothes that people wear, have nothing to do with biology (except for the obvious case of bras being used to support breasts) and everything to do with social custom (even if such social customs are guided by biology).

They won't be normal, they will be as equal as the majority make it, within the legal framework. Complete equality, within the legal system or not, generally doesn't prevail. ("All are equal before the law" is good rhetoric, but all sorts of barriers arise that prevent "perfect equality".) — BC

Was slavery normal until a majority decided to make it abnormal and then did 'no slavery' become normal? Legal enforcement is about enforcing that which is NOW considered normal.

I haven't heard anybody (anywhere) deny their humanity or describe them as a different species. — BC

I have heard many people directly say to me that gays, trans folks etc are to them, like a different species. I have heard many het cis men friends say women are like a different species to them.
I have even heard Glasgow Celtic supporters call Glasgow Rangers supporters a different species.
'Different species,' is used as a colloquial insult all the time, in my experience.

does it make a difference if a M to F trans athlete brings a male body's advantage to compete with women? Many women think that circumstance is unfair. — BC

I agree, that situation sounds unfair to me as well. I don't really care about competitive sports however, so I am unable to get 'angry' about that aspect. I do think a solution does have to be found, to redress that imbalance. I remember reading about a proposed testosterone reduction course of treatments, that could redress that balance, but I cant remember any details and I cant find the original on-line article I read. I am sure it was a New Scientist Magazine article, but I have unsuccessfully searched for it online, twice.

In short, the dysphoria is the problem, not the sex. All medications, surgeries, and therapy ought to be used to rectify the one and not to permanently damage the other. — NOS4A2

It would be good if we had the technology to allow you, me, or anyone who wants to, to do a Vulcan, spock style mindmeld with a trans man, woman or child, or perhaps all three. Perhaps we would all gain an understanding of why transitioning is the only cure for what ails them.

(except for the obvious case of bras being used to support breasts) — Michael

Hey, don't forget the essential testicular support that a well designed pair of comfy boxer shorts can offer a man about town! Running for example, can have painful consequences for a 'true' Scotsman in a kilt in his youth. I have personally experienced this!!! :groan:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I wish I was faster or smarter, blonder or darker, stronger or taller. I wish I was richer not poorer.

I would like to be funnier and prettier but most of all I want to to be sexier.

Everything strong or beautiful tear it down;
Anything inspirational or natural, uplifting to meaningful tear it down
Wise or honest, logical or reasonable tear it down, tear it down.

Everything weak or odd lift it up
Anything demoralising or corrupt, demeaning or meaningless lift it up
Superficial or deceitful, irrational or dim lift it up, lift it up.