agree with that, but the key word here is responsibility. One is responsible for bringing a child into this world, therefore moral obligations may follow from that, and I do believe we could come up with a pretty exhaustive checklist of what that obligation (parenthood) entails. — Tzeentch

You've changed your objection. Your objection was that there was no obligation to help others because I couldn't quantify the extent of that obligation. Here you say my lack of obligation to others is limited to children other than my own, based I suppose on the fact I caused my children to exist. That is, moral obligation at first hinged upon whether that obligation could be quantified, but here it hinges upon one's duty to resolve issues they have personally created.

Your original objection then sort of flutters away and then for some reason becomes easily resolvable. You now claim there will be no difficulty in quantifying one's obligations to one's own children because, well, that's just easily done.

My response is that it is no harder or easier to quantify one's obligations to one's own children as it is to others. In either instance you're going to have to set out what you believe the minimal reasonable requirements are that one has to his own children versus other children, with likely greater responsibility toward one's own than others Since you've now said I do have an obligation to my own children, I suppose I'm immoral because right this second, I'm doing nothing for them. Surely there is some wisdom I might be able to impart that I'm not doing, but yet I fail.

The way out of the quandary for my own children is the same way out for other people's children. I simply come up with what I think is reasonable for the respective children. That you think I have an obligation to persons A, B, and C and not X, Y, and Z is based upon some theory you've not identified, but it is, as I have said, inconsistent with most, if not all, major secular ethical systems and religiously based ones. That is, you stand within a very small group of people who beleive that ethical duty to others ends at the four walls of your house.

You may wish to say that the person who passes by the drowning child without simply bending down to lift him up is ethically neutral, but I don't. I think that person sucks as a human being and is unethical. I recall a case where a man heard a child being raped in the bathroom stall next to him and insisted he was under no duty to do anything at all. Maybe you would see a horrible wreck on an otherwise deserted road and feel no obligation to make an emergency call and then drive home and snuggle up in your bed without any worry about your ethical decision. If that is you, and I really doubt it is, then you are an unethical person.

The best I can discern from what you've written is that you want to limit communal concern to the greatest extent possible and insist that each family unit is entirely responsible for their existence without any expectation from anyone not within their direct blood line. It has this hyper-tribal Randian feel to it, but it's too unworkable to be taken seriously.

If one cannot pinpoint it (or at least give an exhaustive explanation), they have no business calling it a moral obligation. That was my point. — Tzeentch

A standard of reasonableness is a standard even if it isn't quantifiable. That is, I have a moral obligation to care for the children I bring into this world, but because that obligation lacks a specific checklist doesn't allow me to walk away without effort. I must engage in reasonable efforts to fulfill that obligation.

If not, how come you are here writing posts on a philosophy forum rather than fulfilling your moral obligation of helping people who are suffering? There's no shortage of the latter. — Tzeentch

Again, that I can't quantify it doesn't mean I am free not to give to charity. Under Biblical law, there is the law of tithing, which is taken as an obligation that 1/10 of your income goes to charity. Since neither of us subscribe to a divine command theory that provides a diety as the basis for the percentage of charity we must give, we consider 1/10 arbitrary. If you're not going to rely upon God, you must rely upon man, speficially the reasonable man, the hypothetical being that does things in a tempered and thougtful way, for which he can give reasons for his behavior.

Those reasons to give to charity and the amounts considered reasonable can be based upon various logical structures, for example, those provided by the Utillitarians or those provided by the Kantians.

The point though is that we can all agree that moral behavior requires things like kindness, respect, and consideration to others. That my kindness, respect, and consideration of others might look differently than yours doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that I'm free not to be that way.

The person who does less good is worse than the person who does more good, with good and bad being understood in the moral sense. There is some level where we think the person good even if he doesn't give his every ounce of energy to others because he did give a reasonable enough amount of himself to be recognized as good.

On the other hand, should you see a child bobbing up and down in a pool crying out for help, but you don't want to get any water on your new pants, so you let him die, you are a bad person. You had a moral and you breached that moral duty.

While charity is generally regarded as a moral virtue, I think calling donating a moral obligation goes too far.

There are several gripes I would have with that:

- How much should one donate? How often? To what causes?

- What if money can't solve the problem? Am I morally obligated to fly over there and start digging wells?

- What if I am a poor person living in a rich country? Am I obligated to donate? Or are people morally obligated to donate to me?

This idea of donating as a moral obligation raises way too much questions and makes little sense to me. — Tzeentch

Under most ethical theories (Kantianism, Utlitarianism, virtue ethics, most religious based ethical systems), providing some form of charity to others is obligatory. The fact that there is a broad area of choice doesn't diminish that obligation, and it need not be limited to giving money. That you acknowledge charity is ethical (although you think it super-ethical or heroic beyond the call of duty) is an indication that you understand what charity means. That you can't pinpoint the precise amount you might be required to love your neighbor as yourself doesn't mean you are fine to avoid it.

A common idea running throughout this thread is that charity doesn't work, so why give it at all if all you're doing is temporarily postponing the inevitable. I'd just say that because we can't cure the problem is not a reason not to reduce the problem. If we can reduce a person's suffering on Monday only for him to die on Tuesday, I'd think we would be obligated to do that, especially considering how precious and sacred that Monday was, it being his last day.

A step back: do you agree Israel commits war crimes, is illegally occupying land, commits human rights violations or not? You can agree with the facts and not condemn Israel for it because of loyalty, the idea of necessity etc. and I'd disagree but I can find some consistency in it. — Benkei

I'll step it back farther, to better express my fundamental position. A post or so ago, you said I had decontextualized something you said, but what I heard was basically an attempt to offer a justification for Israel's right to the land. You generally fell in favor of Israel having such a right, but the part I found an issue with was that there appears a need at all to provide a justification. Americans, Dutch, Brits and so on don't spend much time thinking about whether they have the right to their land, nor do they believe that their rights to the land are based upon or subject to international approval. If the US explained that it would allow the Dutch their continued occupation of the Netherlands based upon the fact that the Dutch need somewhere to live, that they've been pretty ingenunitive with their dikes, windmills, and daffodils and whatever slew of other justifications the US might think of, I don't think you'd be thankful for its graciousness. You'd actually be concerned that the US thinks it has a say in your continued sovereignty and you'd be especially worried if the US took a single minded focus on Dutch internal politics and how it might be treating its adjacent German neighbors.

What is happening in Israel is child's play when compared to Ukraine. The death toll, the displacements, and the lack of threat Ukraine poses to the Russians pales in comparison with what is happening in Israel. I'm not saying the Russians have been given a pass because there certainly is outrage, but the campus eruptions haven't occured and the marches in the streets haven't occured because no one has any thought that such protests are going to change Putin's mind. He truly doesn't care about international opinion. The same could have been said of the US's reaction to 9/11. Protest as you will, but G.W. was going to be G.W.

The problem is that Israel's existence is linked to international acceptance unlike any other nation on the planet. That's what I have a problem with. The people who protest Israel are doing everything they can to endanger its existence. The only means by which Israel can be defeated is through this political effort. Israel's safety is a matter of Israel's concern, not subject to international approval.

There's no Palestine so no I don't condemn them and in any case, I'm not asking for a blanket condemnation either. I condemn specific behaviour. I condemn Hamas for their last attack. I don't condemn them for wanting to free Palestinians from Israeli occupation - which is a just cause and allows for violent resistance. I don't agree with the repeated claims Hamas still pursues the destruction of Israel and instead that they had a clear change in purpose in 2017. — Benkei

Gaza is occupied by Palestinians regardless of how you want to say the land it titled. The have possession of it and they've chosen Hamas as their representative. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israel and sent in paratroopers for the purpose of not wanting to destroy Israel? I've heard the mantra of freeing Palestine from the river to the sea over and over. Am I misunderstanding that sentiment to mean something other than the removal of Israel from the land?

In any event, I'll take you at your word that you truly think Hamas wants a Jewish state by its side and doesn't want its destruction. I think that's absurd, but we've at least identified that point of disagreement. I think they want to remove every Jew on Arab land, much like every other Arab nation has done.

Before we can have a discussion on this, I need a clear condemnation from you of Israel's ongoing occupation, repeated war crimes, crimes against humanity and illegal settlements. You know, kind of how every discussion with a pro-Palestinian starts with "B-bb-but do you condemn Hamas?" — Benkei

The starting point isn't that we must agree to anything, but it's that we be clear in our positions so that we know where disagreement lies and then being able to offer support for our positions. Neither of us need to prove to the other we have the ethical standing to enter the debate by condemning X, Y, or Z. We have the right to hold contrasting views, even if we find our respective positions deeply offensive to each other.

This thread likely pisses everyone off, but, with the topic, that was pretty much expected.

I made my position clear previously on Israel: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/848309

This is to say, I don't claim Israel without any error, but I don't agree that Israel is an illegal occupier, a committer of war crimes or crimes against humanity, or that they're engaging in illegal settlements, although they push the envelope with the latter.

I don't condemn Israel. Feel free to condemn me for that.

Do you condemn Palestine? You don't have to as a starting point, but you do need to at least tell me if you do and how seriously you do. Do you see them as the warrior rapists and child butchers I do? They hardly dissuaded me from the narrative that they are barbarians with their latest song and dance.

For those interested in the legal precedent for disqualification under the 14th Amendment insurrection clause, see https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/past-14th-amendment-disqualifications/

There were 8 prior instances following the Civil War. It remains debated whether it is applicable to Presidents. The chart lists the mechanism of adjudication, which has included having a state court judge determine eligibility.

If Colorado does remove him, it will only martyr him more, and all for nothing, because Colorado wasn't going Trump anyway.

I place greater moral blame upon those who unnecessarily kill without justification, but I consider self preservation and preservation of one's own people a valid justification.

So, if bombers can destroy a military target from the safety of the sky, they can properly weigh their objective (the eliminatation of the target) against their personal risk of injury against the loss of their enemies' life. That is, it is proper to place one's own safety above one's enemy and it is one's duty to protect one's own people. That is what militaries do. A bomber is therefore not ethically bound to put boots on the ground and go in with an axe in order to achieve his objective even if the result would be to reduce the deaths of opposing civilians if it will (1) place the bomber-turned-axe-wielder at greater personal risk than he'd be in a plane or (2) reduce the efficancy of his campaign to protect his own citizens. I'm assuming the longer the enemy target exists, the more danger is posed.

That is, if the bomber can make his home more safe and not expose himself to great risk, he ethically should bomb and not axe folks.

Supposing one does choose to go at it with an axe, perhaps because an axe is all he has, it would be unethical to axe murder any person unnecessary to achieve their objective in eliminating a target. To the extent a civilian interferes in the axeman's objective, he might rightfully be axed, but then that interferer is hardly just a civilian, but he's now a combatant. An axe wielder in this scenario is particularly unethical if (1) he axes a civilian not in the furtherance of a military objective or (2) his axing has no reasonable way of doing anything militarily, but it is instead just an attempt to evoke terror on the part of the enemy citizenry.

What then might someone do who has only rocks and sticks against an enemy with precision missles? There's not much he can do, but that he's weak doesn't change his moral obligations. If it did, we might just say he can morally butcher, rape, and drag off old ladies as hostages.

Wiki summarizes it into stages well:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism

stopped caring about your opinion on this subject a while ago I'm afraid. But nice way of quoting out of context I suppose. — Benkei

Speak among yourselves then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

So given the centuries of persecution of Jews in Europe and ME, I do think we have a collective responsibility to give them that piece of land for sovereignty. — Benkei

I'd submit that no duty is owed by others to the Jews to give them Israel, but the duty is owed not to intervene in their right to their land. I can't think of any other group of citizens where the world feels it within their authority to decide who gets what land and under what conditions that land can remain in that groups' possession.

If that land is for sovereignty, then it is not subject to reconsideration nor international debate. It is theirs and the expectation should be that it will be defended as unforgivably as one would expect any other sovereign nation to defend their land.

After several decades without major wars, two have begun in the last 2 years. — Tim3003

1998 to 2003 - Second Congo War, 3 million dead.
2011 to present - Syrian Civil War, over 300,000 dead civilians
2003 to 2008 - Darfur Conflict - 300,000 dead
2001 to the US withdrawal in 2010 - Iraq War - over 85,000 civilians dead
2001 to 2016 - Afghanistan War - 30,000 Afgans troops, 31,000 Afgan citizens, 30,000 Pakastani forces dead.
2010 to 2016 - Boko Haram in Nigeria, 11,000 citizens dead and 2 million displaced.
2014 to 2021 - Yemeni Civil War - 375,000 estimated dead, 3 million displaced
2022 - present - Russian Ukraine War, 40,000 Ukranian citizens, 100,000 troups, 200,000 Russians killed, and 1.6 Ukrainians forcibly transferred into Russia.

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict wouldn't make this list as a major war.

But anyway, I do think the statistics show there are fewer deaths from war now than historically, but I don't think they support your thesis that there was a war holiday the past couple of decades.

The universe wouldn't surprise me at all if it is fundamentally incoherent to it's own content (for example observers) which are restricted to experiencing time and space from a falsely standardised pov. — Benj96

I thinks it definitionally impossible for an event to occur outside of time and space, considering an event is defined as that which occurs somewhere at some time. If I were to tell you that Event A exists nowhere and it occurred at no time, we'd just say that Event A never occurred.

The initial singularity was not located "anywhere" nor at "any specific time". Temporo-spatiality applies to the universe as we know it, that is - after the big bang, after expansion, after entropy increased, where those dimensions came into play. — Benj96

Per Kant:

"Space is not something objective and real, nor a substance, nor an accident, nor a relation; instead, it is subjective and ideal, and originates from the mind’s nature in accord with a stable law as a scheme, as it were, for coordinating everything sensed externally. (Ak 2: 403)"

This is also his view of time.

We require that events occur in space and time in order to be coherent, but those attributes are not objective properties but are subjective.

Questions about what happened before there were time or location fail not because they preexisted the physical world, but because they are entirely incoherent.

How long would you have to run this scam to recoup the cost of all those cars? — Vera Mont

The cars are decoys, easily maneuvered with a centralized pully system fully operated remotely by internet from my hidden headquarters, allowing multiple parking lot locations to be take advantage of at once. Duh.

At some places, they have you take a number and wait for it to be called. My idea, and it's a good one, is to get there early in the morning and take all the numbers. I then wpuld sell them to customers who come in, with the higher prices going for the lower numbers.

My other Idea, again a good one, is to take the best parking spots at the most crowded stores and to offer to leave for a price.

I call my business "Dickhead."

The Israeli government could simply upgrade its iron dome and station 40,000 troops at the border with the orders to shoot to kill - Hamas terrorists, motor gliders, drones, etc. — FreeEmotion

The iron dome proved ineffective though from the recent attacks.

But anyway, think about the concept of having to protect your life daily from incoming attacks by shrouding yourself in a cloak of defensive missles, hoping death doesn't find its way to your door.

We've changed the conversation. My question was what you would do if you were Israel, and you've said you'd die the death you deserve. I got my answer to that.

As to whether I'm a hypocrite in holding Palestine to a standard I don't hold Israel to, I could draw all the distinctions between the two, but you'd still disagree. At the most, you'd prove me a hypocrite, not that I'm incorrect about my disgust at the Hamas attacks.

So here's my position: I do not condemn the Israeli response to the Hamas/Palestinian attack and I do not believe the Israelis to be the instigators in this conflict. My stand with Israel is clear here and you can condemn it as you will and find it unsustainable.

But as to your position, do you acknowledge that the recent Palestinian attack on Israel was vile, disgusting, and barbaric? Or, was their response fair game? I'm just waiting for you to tell me that each person involved, from top to bottom, in the planned rape and butchering of innocent children should be located and made to pay the consequences for their crimes just as should occur with the Israelis. But these issues are not mutually exclusive. The same vigor ought be exercised in the correction of injustice regardless of the perpetrator. This would include an insistence that ordinary citizens with knowledge of what occurred and who planned and committed these acts come forward and share the information they have.

That you think I give a pass to the Israelis for the same conduct, means you question my ethical consisitency, but ithat is an aside. The question is whether you accept that you are ethically inconsistent under your same standards you allege I am. If you're not, then let's get to the bottom of who these rapists are. Or, are we just both hypocrites, me siding with the allowance of injustice at the hands of the Israelis and you the Palestinians?

When you shoot this particular pitbull, the whole neighborhood is likely to fall apart. That's why a giant swat team has pulled up along the coast of your house. Does pulling the trigger really seem like a rational solution? — frank

We're getting too deep in this metaphor, so maybe spell out what everything represents the way you're presenting it. I think I'm assigning different entities to different objects than you maybe.

But Israel was more or less safe the day after Hamas' attack wasn't it? — bert1

No, Hamas had no plans just to return to business as usual after having let off some steam. Israel's show of force and dismantling of Hamas is part of a larger longer term deterrent strategy.

As if raping someone on Saturday is excused on Sunday because he tells us he's done.

Even if the analogy were apt (although I disagree with the characterization), your response is on the absurd side.

Drawing it out a bit further:

You have a pit bull tied to a chain in the yard. You underfeed it, you leave it in the cold, you poke it with a stick, and you do all you can to antagonize it. One day it breaks free from its leash, charges into your living room, starts chomping on your children, raping your parents and grandparents, and destroying all your property. No amount of "Down Fido!" seems to do the trick. Fido has arrived to give you the biggest mouthful of comeuppace he can muster and he's not backing down.

Your reponse, as you've indicated it would be, would be to dismantle the chain in the yard and to get the dog and the members in your household to figure out a way to give the dog a nice yard to live in seperate from your household so that the two of you may live peacefully.

The immediate question though seems to be what you are planning to do about the actual dog in the living room. Fido has your kid's leg in its mouth. Do you just say "Fair is fair my son. This dog, violent as he may seem, is just enjoying his just dessert. Justice demands we so endure"?

My response, contrary to your tempered and suicidal approach, is to kill the raging pit bull in my living room. While we may feel different duties to our families, and while I respect your right to let the dog settle all scores past and present on your kin, I think you can at least understand my feeling of duty, which is to eliminate the real and immediate threat threatening my family, which has become apparent through my son's severed and gnawed leg. That is, I would eliminate the dog, even if my kind hearted neighbors were shocked and dismayed because they thought I had earned this healthy dose of dog chomping.

This is to say, even if I were to buy into your argument that Israel represents an antagonizer of a helpless pup, I still don't think your response can be taken seriously. Your response does not give a nod to proportionality, as if to suggest that Israel has a right to a military response but just not as extreme as it has been. Your response is that Israel is entitled to no military response, but that it must lay down its neck and accept its punishment. If that were not your belief, I would think you would have permitted Israel some sort of responsive bombing or military attack, but here you've suggested no military response is acceptable.

to what Israel should do. Israel is reaping what it sowed for years. It should start with dismantling it's apartheid regime and stop it's continuous well documented human rights violations. And getting parties in power that are actually interested in a two state solution, instead of the corrupt turds they have. — Benkei

That'd be your response to your attacks? Seems like you'll be taking in heavy casualties while your dismantling and running elections.

So proportionality isn't a thing? — Benkei

Proportionality is generally associated with retributivism and Kant, where the objective is punishment for the sake of punishment and it should be proportionate to the offense. For example, a person who murders receives 30 years in jail while a shoplifter receives probation, regardless of whether those sentences deter or reform the offender.

Israel's primary obective would be deterrence in trying to stop the ongoing violence. I would view its proper limitation as doing that which acheives the deterrence without violating some higher right or objective.

For example, if I shoot all shoplifters, I will eliminate shoplifting entirely, but I'd be opposed to that response on deterrence grounds not because it's disproportionate to the crime, but because the goal of preserving life is greater than preserving items in people's stores. That is, it's worse to kill people who steal from stores than to allow people to steal from stores without consequence. But that has nothing to do with proportionality. Proportionality would limit the punishment to a just dessert, perhaps providing to the offender a dose of unhappiness equal to what the offender received.

Consistent with this line of thinking is that we would not hesitate to put store owners out of business who sold dangerous products, again because we value people over store items.

So,

If the objective is to deter citizens from murder, rape, and kidnapping, the response will not be limited by the concept of proportionality, but it will be limited to its effectiveness as long as it does not violate some other higher principle. So, using the Israeli example, they may do whatever they need to to protect their citizens lives as long as the rights of their citizens are not of lesser value than what they are destroying. Unless you are going to convince the Israelis that the rights of Palestinians to kill Israelis exceeds the rights of the Israelis to stop Israeli death, you are not going to convince the Israelis their response is ethically invalid, and that's because it's not ethically invalid.

On the other hand, if you could arrive at a way for the Israelis to stop the violence against them that would not entail a similarly violent counter-response, then that would be ideal. What do you propose? How would you defend your home if it were under similar attack?

Anyway, no one is denying the history of antisemitism in the Middle-East. Trying to excuse Israel's treatment of Palestinians in this way is familiar caveman logic. — Tzeentch

The point here is that the Arab nations have been expelling Jews from "their" land historically and during modern times. That clear case of apartheid for some reason is overlooked. What's also overlooked is that while there has been a Jewish presence in Palestine for thousands of years, a large portion of today's Jews are the descendants of refugees from all over the globe. Jews currently exist in their largest numbers (although still very small) in Israel and the US, and then way down the list you come up with France and the UK, but those numbers are very low.

The big picture here, if you're not seeing it, is that this tiny minority is being evicted from everywhere they go, including Israel, one of the only places available. If not for the US, where do you think they'd go?

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians while shocking to you appears to overlook the fact that Palestinians butchered and burnt babies, raped women, and took the very old as hostages. The outrage that followed Israel's supposed bombing of the hospital seems to have been muted as evidence comes forward that it was Hamas. Why not the outrage and protests against Hamas for bombing a hospital? Will you take to the streets if evidence is confirmed it was Hamas?

Palestine suffered human rights violations and crimes against humanity under Israeli occupation. Ethnic cleansing, forced displacement, discrimination, apartheid, etc. — Tzeentch

In 1948, about 80,000 Jews lived in Egypt, in 2016, it was 6. In Iran, in 1948, there were 140,000 to 150,000, in 2019, 8,300. There are 0 in Jordan. At the end of WWI, Lebanon had 3,500, now 29. Libya had 40,000 in the 1940s, now it has 0.

The systematic effort to remove the Jews from the middle east has been largely successful.

When they were expelled from these nations, they immigrated largely to Palestine, but the effort to remove them has been unrelenting. I mean, why can't they just leave Israel once and for all and just go to New York where they can live without bothering people.

Have you morphed into a Democrat? Just curious. — frank

I don't think so, but If Bush, Kasich, Christie, Pence, and Trump are all Republicans, I'm not sure what it means to be a Republican.

I have no evidence that Hamas did blow up the hospital, based on the missiles they have.

Now the context is important, but you seem to want to downplay it, for lack of "official reports." The context is, there is clear as day evidence that Israel is bombing Gaza to the stone age, without care about who is killed.

I don't know if that "type of evidence" achieves the high standards you demand. — Manuel

I was only responding to your incorrect comment that there was evidence Palestine didn't blow up the hospital, which you acknowledge you don't.

As to whether they are bombing without concern who they kill, I disgree with that.

Based on previous actions, which have been widely reported. I can refer you to several books if you want to read the myriad of abuses and crimes committed by Israel, as well as taking a look at the Israeli human rights organization which I posted. — Manuel

I would only want to read your books if I chose to allow you to divert attention from the question that we're addressing so that you can pretend it wasn't asked.

The question was who blew up the hospital. Your answer was it could not have been the Palestinians because they lack the rocket power to do that. I asked you for a cite to that. You then started telling me about how Israel has a long history of abuse against the Palestinians and you had some books that supported that.

So, back to what we're talking about. What evidence do you have that the bombings could not have been the result of a Hamas weapon due to the fact that Hamas lacks the firepower?

If you tell me, well, the Israealis are always doing bad things to the Palestinians, so it more likely was them, that will not address your statement that it could not have been the Palestinians due to lack of firepower.

And that's what I'm going to keep coming back to because yours is attempt to create empirical evidence from nothing to support your view that it must have been Israel.

That you are an open detractor of Israel, even if justifiably so, doesn't mean you must abandon the truth and misreport objectively verifiable facts. That is the point of my responses. If you want to say you don't believe Israel because they're sons of bitches in your opinion, then just say that, but going down the road of providing what is represented as objective fact when it is not is simply disingenuous.

A 20kg explosive that probably hovers somewhere between civilian-grade and military-grade will produce a decent boom, but 500 dead + presumably many more wounded sounds extraordinarily high for such an explosion, especially if walls were seperating people from the blast. — Tzeentch

There's an equal chance that your foray into forensic pyrotechnics began about 20 minutes ago and you have no idea what rockets are within the Hamas arsenal, what their explosive power is, and no idea what forces the hospital structure could withstand.

On the other hand, if you were correct, I would expect someone other than the friendly folks at The Philosophy Forum would have arrived at these conclusions, would have presented them somewhere on the great world wide web, and then you could simply provide me a link as opposed to providing me the benefit of your new found expertise.

If it's something that never happened before I would agree. But the extensive documentation provided by human rights agencies in the 2014, 2016 and other Gaza massacres have shown that this is not abnormal behavior for Israel at all. See for instance the Goldstone report. — Manuel

The question was whether there were empirical evidence, not whether you've sorted out what you consider credibility evidence and decided who to believe. If you want to just say you don't trust the Israelis so you think it must have been their doing, that's one thing. But that's not what you've said. You said that Palestine didn't do it because they lack the fire power to do that.

You changed your argument.

If I were engaging in a credibility assessment of your comments, I would be led to the conclusion that you're willing to provide reasons for Israeli misconduct that are not supported by the evidence only to withdraw those arguments when challenged, and then to rely upon other grounds to support your prejudged conclusion that it was the Israelis, meaning I would see your opinions as biased towards what you wanted to conclude anyway. .

Jeez man, this is vulgar Israeli propaganda and people believe it! Wow, suddenly Hamas has rockets that can destroy entire hospitals. — Manuel

Again, provide your support for your position that Hamas rockets cannot destroy hospitals. Obviously if that were true, then it was the Israelis, but I've not seen any cite that states (1) Hamas rockets lack the destructive power to destroy hospitals or (2) that the Palestinians have argued they lack the ability to destroy hospitals. That is, you're making an argument that has no empirical support and one that not even the Palestinians are making.

There are literally thousands of rockets being fired in a very small space. It would be more surprising if none missed their target than if all did. The question then becomes whether (1) this was an accidental misfiring or (2) whether it was purposeful. It would seem the likelihood of an Israeli intentional targeting of a Palestinian hospital is unlikely, considering the political fallout that would result. It is possible it was an accident by the Israelis. In terms of whether it was accidental or intentional by Hamas, either explanation works, considering their missles are notoriously inaccurate and also it could be intentional considering the political gain they'd derive from it if the Israelis could be blamed.

The point here though is that no one knows what happened and there are equally compelling reasons to believe in theory it was caused by either of the two. Any suggestion that it's clearly one or the other only reveals the bias of the person offering the opinion.

I missed the sarcasm. Sorry.

I never called it (the audio) "authoritative". Nor affirmed my commitment to it. Taken in another sense, your claim sounds even contradictory. — neomac

You indicated

And then also lie about it with "extremely fake" audios according to the most authoritative infowar experts on earth. Anyway, in today's day and age it's best to reserve judgement. — neomac

Your position was that there was authoritative evidence disproving the legitimacy of the evidence submitted by Israel in questioning the cause of the explosion.

This is to say, both you and @ssu throw out accusations that the Israeli account is preposterous, but then when asked for some sort of cite, nothing is provided.

Then others play junior pyrotechnics experts and offer opinions as to what they think the videos show, as if such analysis does anything other to reveal confirmation bias.

And then also lie about it with "extremely fake" audios according to the most authoritative infowar experts on earth. Anyway, in today's day and age it's best to reserve judgement. — neomac

Again, you're pointing to authoritive empirical evidence that doesn't exist.

Just seems to me the most likely case here. — ssu

Except you provided an empirical argument for why it was the Israelis (i.e. Palestine lacked the rocket power) and now you're backtracking to theorizing (i.e. Israel needs to maintain its moral position for US support, so this is spin control).

These are entirely different arguments.

The counter theory is that Hamas cannot win this war militarily, they have no moral high ground since their invasion of the kibbutz, so they hope to politically turn the tides in their favor by showing Israeli brutality and their own suffering by causing their own death and blaming it on Israel.

This is to say that Hamas scores far more points if it was Israel that bombed the hospital, so much so that it could sway political support in their favor.

Israel gains nothing in such an attack.

Somehow the single most powerful rocket fired from Gaza ever, that could destroy whole buildings, misfired and hit one of the few hospitals in Gaza. — ssu

What cite do you have to support this claim?

You're arguing impossibility, meaning Palestine couldn't have done this because their arsenal isn't capable of doing it.

I've not seen any articles where the Palestinians have even asserted that.

All's fair in love and war.

is obvious that Japan would have won against the US if Truman hadn't dropped the atomic bombs. — javi2541997

This article says:

Japan was considering surrendering prior to Nagasaki, the conventional bombs killed more than the nuclear ones, and Japan never could have fended off the US and the Soviet Union successfully.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/#:~:text=But%2C%20in%201965%2C%20historian%20Gar,use%20was%2C%20therefore%2C%20unnecessary.

There needs to be a protected humanitarian corridor. I'm sure Israel will put effort into creating that. Unless they just want to do a massive fuckup. — frank

I'm in favor of that in theory, but Gaza is tiny and massively overpopulated and pretty much in rubble. If the citizens could be moved around so that the Hamas infrastructure could be dismantled, then that would be ideal, but the truth is there is no place for anyone to go, and it's not in Hamas' interest to allow the citizens to go safely. Hamas scores points with every Palestinian death because their war can't be won militarily, so their battle is political in trying to win world support by showing Palestinian victimization.

Hamas pokes the bear by firing indiscriminate missles and raping, murdering, and kidnapping. Predictably, Israel's detractors line up and argue justification and moral equivalence and hand Palestine a political victory as the victim. The sentiment pervasive in this forum is what Hamas wished to expand throughout the West with their repugnant suicide mission.

Israel's proper response is full rejection of its detractors, with a focus only upon its own safety. That the anti-Israel world might more firmly become anti-Israel is irrelevant in how Israel should and will respond.

Only in over-intellectualized 21st century liberalism, where the weaker party is the per se victim can it be an effective political strategy to provoke a war and then to lose so badly that that you use your losing to your political advantage.

So jeer from the sidelines. Israel has a population it must protect.

So you have the keys to the castle and your job is to protect Israel and assure continued random bombings and terroristic bands of rapists and butchers don't run their periodic raids.

What do you do?

Do you talk about moral ambiguity, feel the guilt of your predecessors in putting you in this place, and then set up a meeting with Hamas to discuss your displeasure at their murderous yet understandable behavior and figure out how we can go halfsies on the land so everyone will be happy?

For real, what do you propose in real terms other than the vague platitude that Israel should be careful not to hurt the innocent. Their position is that they will do their best.

So General Baden, protect your nation. What do you propose?

And so Hamas uses its citizens as human shields so the law of not harming citizens protects Hamas from attack? Is it that easy?