• "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    He concludes that metaphysics are "ticklish". By that he means that a person whose metaphysics are challenged would typically become rather aggressive towards the challenger.
    I found his analysis convincing, and believe it does explain why there tends to be some aggressiveness in philosophy, contrary to a naïve cliché of the serene philosopher. Philosophy cuts deep, and it hurts. A philosopher is only serene to the extent that his or her metaphysics remains unchallenged.
    Olivier5

    :up: :up: :up:
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."


    Cool drawing. I understood much your intention, I hope.

    For 'Hegel,' there's nothing for 'snow is white' or its equivalent 'it's true snow is white' to ride an arrow to. There's nothing behind the (meaning of) the statement. The temptation might be to run it to the whiteness of snow, but that redundance is precisely the motivation to stay put, for we're just repeating ourselves. As I see it, we also aren't served by an ineffable truthmaker any more than by a thump on the table. It's as if the revelation or disclosure of reality is the essence of language.

    Your drawing gives me some insight, but it'd help to hear more about how you conceive or deal with truthmakers.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    We can no longer use language to talk about the world if it is the world. Mention and use collapse into one (another), together with language and the world.Luke

    Consider though :

    'John said that Sally said that the rent was already paid.'

    'Braver emphasizes the similarity of Davidson's critique of conceptual schemes to Hegel's critique of knowledge conceived as an instrument that mediates an otherwise unmediated reality.'

    That's me talking about Braver talking about Davidson and Hegel each talking about traditional ways of talking about how talk connects or not to the postulated untalky rest of the world.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Can the word ‘axe’ be used to chop down a tree? Or are ‘trees’ nothing more than unchoppable words? If sentences in use are the world, then there is no use-mention distinction.Luke

    In my view, this is tricky to talk about because we are not all using 'sentence' and related words in the same way, sort of like dereferencing our pointers a different number of times. Use and mention are crucial here, and a little ambiguous, I admit.


    To say it's true there are plums in the icebox is (basically) to say there are plums in the ice box.

    The meaning of our true assertions just 'is' the world. ('The world is all that is the case.')
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    In response to the claim that there is more to reality than what we talk about, you ask for more talk, for me to tell you what is.Fooloso4

    I was half-joking, trying to get you to see that your theory includes the 'ineffable' implicitly. The 'windmills' comment was intended to remind you that of course we all know that non-talk exists. The issue is whether a theory including truthmakers, built on the ocular metaphor of representation, is ultimately more trouble than it's worth.

    Note that inferences do not have non-talk for premises or conclusions (inputs or outputs.) We reason with/in sentences. Of course I acknowledge the non-talk reality in the boring, usual way, but I think it's better to handle it in terms of language entrances. 'The witness saw a blue car parked out front at 10:00 PM.'

    What then is required for knowledge of our own inner, private episodes, say knowledge that I’m having a sensation of a red triangle, if it isn’t just that I am sensing a red triangle? What else is required besides the actual sensation? In short, knowledge requires concepts, and since concepts are linguistic entities, we can say that knowledge requires a language. To know something as simple as that the patch is red requires an ability to classify that patch, and Sellars thinks the only resource for such rich categorization as adult humans are capable of comes from a public language. — link
    https://iep.utm.edu/sellars/#H3

    We can no longer talk of things at all,i.e.,of something that would be for consciousness merely the negative of itself.
    ...

    Thought is always in its own sphere; its relations are with itself, and it is its own object.
    ...

    ...it takes for granted that the Absolute stands on one side, and that knowledge on the other side, by itself and cut off from the Absolute, is still something real; in other words, that knowledge, which, by being outside the Absolute, is certainly also outside truth, is nevertheless true — a position which, while calling itself fear of error, makes itself known rather as fear of the truth.
    — Hegel
    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/ph/phintro.htm
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    And so on.bongo fury

    It definitely has its place.

    I think maybe the same criticism applies to it though. The noun 'is' the object as intelligible. Folks like to say that the map is not the territory. I understand what they mean well enough. But from my 'Hegelian' position we just have in that aphorism a reminder than or beliefs might not be true.

    In other words, maps are beliefs and the territory is all that is the case or just the facts. (From this POV, the maps 'are' sometimes the territory, but we can't be sure...there is no non-mappy territory.) (I think you already understand this position.)
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Of course. And variables to values (which are things out there, not more language).

    And so on.
    bongo fury

    It's my understanding that Carnap was wild about this stuff and that he worked out complex systems.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."

    Let's see. So you want to link nouns to objects maybe ? Independently of the claims they appear in?
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."


    That helps. Brandom claims that the original pre-Kantian approach was in terms of parts rather than whole sentences, and that Kant's achievement was recognizing that we can only take responsibility for assertions, complete sentences, and not their parts (individual concepts). To be sure, responsibility and the normative are not the only way in. But I do confess my infatuation with inferentialism at the moment.

    On the other hand, my training is in math, so I can relate to caring about the meaning of parts and building from there.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."

    A bit like the 'ghost' at the heard of the hard problem. It's there, I guess, maybe, but there's nothing to be said about it. It's the hole in a doughnut, getting its sense in the first place from that which is public and articulated surrounding it.

    The 'Kant' approach is truer to our total cognition and common sense. Granted. But the 'Hegel' approach is purer, focused on what we can and actually do work with. Claims.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Which I'm quite sure none of us ever would...bongo fury

    To me the alternative is an indeterminate X for everything that exists non-linguistically.

    So it's 'Hegel' or 'Kant,' which may be like choosing a red tie or a blue tie. (I never wear ties, so wtf?)
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."

    Yeah it could be smug or mystical. But it's basically Hegel, so...no surprise ? Is it a bug or a feature ?
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Same difference. In Quine, Goodman, Elgin.bongo fury

    OK, so it was just terminological habit/expectation.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."


    I guess I wouldn't say that white denotes snow.

    I'd just say that "snow is white" is true if snow is white.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."

    I never studied Frege closely, but I thought he cast the meaning or reference (or something) of propositions as True or False. Maybe someone can chime in.

    And, "true" denotes "snow is white" iff "white" denotes snow.bongo fury

    My intuition would be that 'true' would merely describe and not denote in that case. Could be a terminological difference/preference.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Dasein's self-belonging is not a retreat from the immediate contingency of world-exposure, not the choosing of an idealist self-actualization at the expense of robust being with others.Joshs
    :up:

    :up:
    what I perceive as socially `permitted' rhetorical argumentation is already stylistically distinctive in relation to what other participants perceive as permitted. Each individual who feels belonging to an extent in a larger ethico-political collectivity perceives that collectivity's functions in a unique, but peculiarly coherent way relative to their own history, even when they believe that in moving forward in life their strategic language moves are guided by the constraints imposed by essentially the `same' discursive conventions as the others in their speech community.Joshs
    :up:

    I liked this closing especially. Relevant to us here, yes? We don't see the norms the same way, correct ? We can even pretend they are clearer than they are while trying to establish them. I'd say that we update our sense of the norms in play constantly. Each move in the game and its result is a fresh clue about what is acceptable and charming and what is the opposite. Complete conformity is bland mediocrity. In our individualistic culture, the right kind of sin is virtue itself, or the glamorous kind at least. In a less narcissistic key, the deepest and most joyful sociality lives in dancing on the edges, in a play that is not quote innocent and anything but rote. It is two children running off into the woods on the edge of the village. Or more than two perhaps. Groups of musicians (an experimental rock band maybe) who are also close friends...also go there. The edge is made possible by that which is taken for granted. In the same way, poetry builds a metrical expectation in order to violate it skillfully.


    Maybe we agree: the self is not 'injected' with norms. (This metaphor might work for the body. ) The performance of the responsible self is 'itself' normal. What 'I' am or include is not given beforehand but itself at stake. Small wonder that Nietzsche contemplated will to power and expansion and a 'false' making-equal as its tool.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    For are we not all...akin to polyphonic novels, speaking in multiple voices, reflecting multiple traditions?Joshs
    :up:
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    And, "true" denotes "snow is white" iff "white" denotes snow.bongo fury

    Is this a Fregean idea ?

    It jars my intuition, but I'm willing to hear the case.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    I actually think some authors are trying to trick their readers, even beyond death!Olivier5

    I'll grant you that. But I don't think it hurts our feelings the same way.

    Nabokov wrote that the real conflict was always between the author and the reader. In our late age of Netflix and having seen it all, this seems especially true. 'Surprise me or fuck off.'
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    all the more so when such metaphysics and its motivators remain unconscious to us, outside any possible examination, while framing all our thoughts.Olivier5
    :up:

    That reminds me of what I'd call a 'deep metaphor' theory, and which I'd associate with Wittgenstein and Heidegger. The stuff that binds all of us is just clear water (for us.) But the stuff that binds most of us is, I claim, what the greats, among other things, make explicit and therefore optional. (That which is closest is hardest to see, like forgetting your glasses are on your nose.)

    I am not totally convinced that the approach would work any better than 'combativeness' in a philosophic debate.Olivier5

    I think we pretty much agree. The desire to humiliate I mentioned may actually be good for us. We punish one another for dishonesty or irrelevance or incoherence. We simultaneously enforce tribal norms and attempt installing new ones.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    But P talks about truth, as well.bongo fury

    Earlier I contemplated < <P is true> is true > is true>. I believe idempotent is the technical term. It seems to work in this simple case at least.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    This should be quite obvious to anyone not seduced by philosophy.Fooloso4
    Dude. Seriously ? Windmills.

    Again with the ineffable? My view is not Kantian. Let me try again:Fooloso4

    ... what I talk about and what is are not the same.Fooloso4

    Tell me what is then.

    I said nothing about the priority of feeling and sensation.Fooloso4

    I was just guessing on that one.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Rather, so long as we continue the normal process of creating consensus around what is real and good, classes of the undesirable are under construction.Joshs

    :up:

    Good point, but I want to respond to something else.

    You joked about being an alien or a cat in another thread. I relate to this. There's a mode of being that looks amoral to a 'committed' outsider. One 'ought not' understand the criminal. One 'ought not' be too transcendent or detached. This is the 'good' part in Stirner who is wretched when digested politically.

    Harold Bloom claims that Hamlet really loved no one.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    So, I take it that you agree that "is true" adds nothing meaningful to a sincere belief statement? That truth is presupposed within belief statements?creativesoul

    That's it, yes. "P is true" is "P", tho @Isaac makes the fair point that "true" is meaningful in terms of emphasis and I guess therefore pragmatics.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Heidegger, for instance, makes the
    average everyday ness of idle talk derivative of a more primary self-understanding of Dasein.
    Joshs

    Could you elaborate ? I tend to model the situation in terms of the social as the bottom most layer. I am fundamentally one of or a piece of us. The tribal language and form of life is my operating system, deeper than the performance of individuality that it makes possible. (Descartes was a shallow thinker from this perspective, taking the top layer for granted, ignoring that it's language that cannot be doubted intelligibly, not some mere ideological product thereof like the self.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Is that the only two options?creativesoul

    No. Just an icebreaker. I actually don't think truth is a property. I like the redundancy / prosentential approach.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Do you mean that while chatting with the living, we ought to care for their feelings, understanding and impressions a great deal more than when chatting with the dead?Olivier5

    Basically. We know that Nietzsche, to name an aggressive aphorist, is not trying to insult or trick us. There is no trust or failure of trust involved. The living however are perhaps compulsively interpreted by us as friend, foe, or indeterminate. While a certain combativeness or competitiveness may serve the pursuit of better beliefs, I speculate that too much just locks everyone up in their safe space, only able to repeat what they find obvious or not. And it's just not fun if fucking everyone is a enemy. We like teamwork ! Primordially social and collaborative...
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    I am beyond myself, exposes to an outside , before and beyond extant cultural
    formations. This isnt a retreat back to a form of subject-centered solipsism , but a more radical notion of the social than between person dynamics.
    Joshs

    :up:

    To me this makes sense. Dissolving the subject is dissolving all of the subjects. The boundaries and concepts themselves are constantly being negotiated.

    pplauding the social constructionists, post-structuralists and post-analytic types for exploding the myth of the autonomous subject in favor of the socially embedded and linguistically-saturated actor.Joshs

    You know I like the actor metaphor. Is it not strange that we explode that in myth only by wearing it ? 'Normative' rationality is autonomous. Struggling against our having been thrown is fundamental. 'History is [itself] the nightmare from which it is trying to awake.' I am the system trying to slide out itself, as if my unborn future has my unforgiven past as both grave and womb.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Nietzsche wasn't the last one to draw his blade, and there was something healthy, combative, almost vital in his lack of patience, I think. Life is short.Olivier5
    :up:
    We should be tough. An important distinction, in my view, is that between reading the dead and chatting with the living.

    Once trust is established, brevity is simply good ?

    One can always ask for elaboration after all.
  • Is there an external material world ?

    Thanks. I plan to check out his work.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    He attributes most ethical arguments to rely on what he calls the assumption of the bounded self, which holds individuals morally responsible for their actions.Joshs

    Nice quote. There's a passage in Nietzsche that's similar. So-called 'free will' is perhaps best understood in terms of norms of responsibility. We aren't 'truly' or 'perfectly' free. The strong poet is only ever relatively self-created or novel, relatively path-breaking. Does this not remind you of Heidegger?

    How could the morally advanced individual generate a set of personal moral principles, except from the repository of cultural intelligibilities at his/her disposal?Joshs

    We are thrown onto the stage with a set of stock characters to choose from. Oh adolescence !
    For have I not long ago made my choice ? Am I not my own ghost in this decision ?
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Psycho analysis ‘links’ motivation and cognition by treating the former as a mechanism imposing itself on cognition from without.Joshs

    :up:

    That squares with my reading of Freud.

    Affectively negative
    experience ( anxiety, fear, hostility, joy, guilt) IS the relative incoherence of a situation for us.
    Joshs

    That seems partially true. There is a brute animality in us that responds to our hand in the fire in one way and the right dose of pain pills in quite another.

    Incoherence hurts. I agree. But doesn't that chime with my normative rationality ?
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    I mean that every time you blame someone , including yourself , you are failing to see the contextual validity in the course of action that you condemn or judge.Joshs

    Oh. Well I think we agree then. But only gods can live there and not just visit.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    What I say about reality is tautologically linguistic, but what I talk about and what is are not the same.Fooloso4

    Like I said, good common sense, which leads nevertheless to endless confusion. We can assign an X marks the ineffable spot if you like, but that's why I call this view Kantian.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    Further, our way of being in the world is not limited to the linguistic, to what we say or think or talk about or conceptualize.Fooloso4

    Tell me more.

    The dogma of the linguistic keeps some in their slumber.Fooloso4

    Are we to constantly celebrate the Priority Of Feeling And Sensation or the Ineffable Priority of Real Life within otherwise dry conversations about epistemological and semantic concepts ? Can one not read Blake because one also reads Brandom?


    Men are admitted into heaven, not because they have curbed and governed their passions, or have no passions, but because they have cultivated their understandings. The treasures of heaven are not negations of passion, but realities of intellect, from which all the passions emanate, uncurbed in their eternal glory. The fool shall not enter into heaven, let him be ever so holy: holiness is not the price of entrance into heaven. Those who are cast out are all those who, having no passions of their own, because no intellect, have spent their lives in curbing and governing other people's by the various arts of poverty, and cruelty of all kinds.
    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Life_of_William_Blake_(1880),_Volume_2/Prose_writings/A_Vision_of_the_Last_Judgment
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    It is not that reality is linguistic, but that we are; and so it follows that the reality we talk about is linguistic.Fooloso4

    OK, I want to agree, but you talking about reality here, so that this reality you talk about is indeed linguistic, because we are.

    We can abbreviate 'reality is not itself linguistic' as Kant's view, with alternative as Hegel's. Common sense is with Kant, surely, because I can see the plums in the icebox, having told someone they were in there. Uptight philosophers like me should maybe pick Hegel's, because we can't integrate this magical pure seeing into an argument, not until it's been 'processed' into a claim about objects. 'Thought is its own object, and thought is thought's only object.' Sounds crazy, ends up being clever. I think it will sell.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    I try to be clear and concise, in general, but often come across as inarticulate and condescending.Olivier5

    Concision is a fascinating issue. Terseness is typically good (so say the style books), but it can also suggests that the listener is not worth more than a quick remark. Do we find it easier to trust the verbose ? Because their primary motive, being understood, is so clear ? They value us, as ears at least, while the aphorist may take us for a mere target, performing for others at our expense perhaps and not for our illuminate.

    To what degree is philosophy caught up in the desire to humiliate ? As Nietzsche might put, the dialogue can be a knife fight.
  • "What is truth? said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
    It's been argued -- by a certain Comte-Sponville, specialist of Spinoza -- that one's moral sense is like one's sense of equilibrium: you can apply it to yourself, but not to others.Olivier5

    That sounds good. Personally I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's usually pointless to hate or resent. The grand soul understands. Shakespeare is one of my symbols/heroes. Nothing human is alien to me.