Climate scientists almost always only tell the public about temperature anomalies.
— Agree to Disagree

Care to give any examples whatsoever? — Mikie

If you don't know this then you don't know much about climate-change/global-warming.

Try looking at this webpage from NASA GISTEMP. You only need to read the first bit, under the heading "The Elusive Absolute Surface Air Temperature (SAT)".

https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/faq/abs_temp.html

What does an Egyptian goose say?

I'm in denial !!! :rofl:

In case you don't get it, "denial" = "de Nile" = "the Nile (river)"

Now, who would have predicted such a witty, erudite and original response. — Banno

We geese are intelligent enough to migrate when things get too cold. We fly to locations that are nice and warm. Because warmth is much much better than cold.

If humans cause a bit more global-warming then we geese won't have to waste all of that energy flying. We can stay in a warm paradise without needing to migrate.

If geese drove cars then they would fill them with goose-oline. :rofl:

Best to laugh and walk away. — Banno

You and Mikie usually respond to my posts with insults rather than intelligent discussion.

It is almost like I was questioning your religion.

You left out some important information from the webpage that you quoted.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/151093/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-another-record-low

In February 2023, sea ice around Antarctica reached the lowest extent ever observed since the start of the satellite record in 1979. But despite several recent years of low extents, the long-term trend for sea ice in southern polar waters is essentially flat; it is the declines in sea ice at the other pole—in the Arctic—that are pushing the global sea ice trend downward.

What a fucking goose you are. — Banno

A very cold goose who wants some global-warming :sad:

There are a lot of geese who want the same as me.

So you’ve gathered data and put it into a graph — which thousands of climate scientists have also done — Mikie

Your response shows that you don't really know much about climate-change/global-warming.

Do you know what the difference is between a temperature anomaly and an actual temperature?

Climate scientists almost always only tell the public about temperature anomalies. They hardly ever tell the public about actual temperatures (unless it is a high actual temperature).

Why? Because global-warming looks a lot less scary when you look at actual temperatures.

To calculate temperature anomalies you need to use actual temperatures. So climate scientists already have the actual temperatures available with no extra work. But they have chosen to "hide" the actual temperatures from the public.

That is why I have put a lot of work into finding the actual temperatures for each country/location.

The following map shows the actual temperatures for the Earth in January. This is the Northern Hemisphere Winter and the Southern Hemisphere Summer.

The resolution of this map is 2 degrees latitude by 2 degrees longitude. The same resolution as the GISTEMP temperature anomaly data.

Look at all of the purple and blue color in the Northern Hemisphere. Purple represents actual temperatures less than zero degrees Celsius. Literally freezing cold.

I’m not interested in the armchair thoughts of a random internet guy, or what s/he thinks is possible or isn’t possible. — Mikie

So I’m seeing now that you’re just a fairly average climate denier coming here to spread old, tired canards. — Mikie

Why not run along before embarrassing yourself further about a subject of which you’re completely ignorant? :up: — Mikie

They [your views on climate change] fall right in the meaty part of the curve of climate denial. Fairly boring, actually. — Mikie

Yep. And from the other ignorant things you’ve said so far, perhaps below average. — Mikie

Questions like this is why I say you’re an average climate denier, or at least parroting their greatest hits. — Mikie

As with most climate deniers, the conversation has to devolve into nonsense. — Mikie

If that's truly where your head is at -- to the point where you can't even see how stupid and irrelevant that statement was -- I'm not interested. — Mikie

Guess you figured it would make you look interesting in some way. The reality is quite the opposite. — Mikie

I value their onions; I don’t value yours. And for a simple reason: you haven’t shown even an 8th grade understanding of climate science. — Mikie

As I said in an earlier post, I have been seriously interested in climate change for at least 10 years. As well as looking at temperature anomalies I have also looked in detail at actual temperatures. I have collected actual temperature data for over 36,000 locations on the earth.

After quality control I ended up with data for just over 24,000 locations on the earth. For each location the data includes:
- yearly and monthly average temperatures
- yearly and monthly average high temperatures
- yearly and monthly average low temperatures

I have grouped this data into 216 countries so that I know the average temperature, the average low temperature of the coldest month, and the average high temperature of the hottest month, for each country.

I have also combined the temperature data with population data for each country.

The following graph shows the data for each country. Each country is plotted as a rectangle. The height of the rectangle for a country goes from the average low temperature of the coldest month to the average high temperature of the hottest month. The width of the rectangle for a country shows the population of that country. The countries have been sorted by the average high temperature of the hottest month. Some of the countries with large populations have been labelled.

Also shown on the graph are:
- the average temperature of the land (averaged by area for 216 counties), This is the red line and equals 15.6 degrees Celsius
- the average temperature that humans live at (averaged over the total population of the earth).This is the blue line and equals 19.7 degrees Celsius

Note that the average human lives at a warmer temperature than the average land temperature.



Here is an example of using the graph. Find the yellow label which says “China” and locate the large rectangle above the label. That large rectangle represents China.

The average low temperature of China’s coldest month is about -2.0 degrees Celsius.
The average high temperature of China’s hottest month is about +30.3 degrees Celsius.
The grey line about half way up the rectangle is China’s yearly average temperature. For China, this is about +15.0 degrees Celsius.
The population of China is about 1,420,062,022 (the width of the rectangle).

There is a lot of information contained in the graph. One interesting thing that can be done is to choose a country and add some amount of global warming to the average high temperature of the hottest month. Then look to see which countries already have (without any global warming) an average high temperature of the hottest month higher than the first country chosen with global warming.

For example, Russia with +7.5 degrees Celsius of global warming will still have an average high temperature of the hottest month lower than America's with no global warming.

There are real roadblocks. — Mikie

That is exactly the point that I am making. You think that these roadblocks will be overcome. I believe that these roadblocks won't be overcome.

We will have to wait and see which of us is correct.

No, it's you. I gave you a long, detailed post explaining what climate change is. You respond with irrelevancies like "It's cold in Moscow." — Mikie

I am not disputing what climate change is, and I am not disputing that it is happening. I am pointing out the difficulty of "solving" climate change.

The cold temperatures in Russia are not irrelevant to the people who live in Russia. The people who live in Russia would probably like some global warming (nicer temperatures, winters not so harsh, more usable land, longer growing season, etc).

The "problem" of global warming is a difficult one to solve, and probably needs everyone to cooperate.

Why should the Russians cooperate with you?

How cooperative will these countries be? (they all have average summer temperatures below 25 degrees Celsius)
- Greenland
- Faroe Islands
- Norway
- Ireland
- Isle of Man
- Channel Islands
- United Kingdom
- Netherlands
- Denmark
- Finland
- Germany
- Switzerland
- Sweden
- Estonia
- Saint Helena
- Latvia
- Belgium
- Lithuania
- New Zealand
- Mongolia
- Austria
- Russia
- Czech Republic
- Belarus
- Chile
- Canada

These counties might say that they will cooperate, but how hard will they really try?

Do you care that the people who live in Russia are too cold?
— Agree to Disagree

So much for a good faith discussion about climate change.

As with most climate deniers, the conversation has to devolve into nonsense. — Mikie

Why does talking about the people who are too cold stop this being a good faith discussion?

You call me a denier whenever you disagree with me. You say that my ideas are nonsense whenever you don't want to discuss them. I have refrained from labelling you because I want to have a genuine discussion about climate-change/global-warming. It is you who is stopping us having a good faith discussion.

You do curiously leave out the link between the CO2 increase and the temperature increase. — Echarmion

I am not sure whether CO2 is responsible for 100% of the temperature increase. It is probably responsible for the majority of the increase in temperature.

The science is never settled. It must change if new data or observations are incompatible with the existing science. That is why I am not 100% sure.

Who controls the energy produced by natural gas? Fusion wouldn't be any different from natural gas other than it doesn't cause climate change. — frank

Wouldn't the energy produced by fusion power be much much much greater than the energy produced from natural gas?

Sort of like comparing a sword to a guided missile.

Does everybody want climate-change/global-warming to be "solved" ?
— Agree to Disagree

Anyone with an 6th grade understanding of climate change does, yes. — Mikie

Luckily I have a 7th grade understanding of climate change.

Questions like this is why I say you’re an average climate denier, or at least parroting their greatest hits. — Mikie

Do you care that the people who live in Russia are too cold? I don't think that you care.

So why should the Russians care if you are too hot. Once you are economically or climate damaged the Russians will be able to take over your country. You should learn to speak Russian.

Fusion power doesn't produce materials that can be weaponized, so it shouldn't be an issue. — frank

Who controls the energy produced by fusion power? Will every country have their own fusion power?

Turning the supply of energy off can certainly cause damage and/or disaster.

You need energy to fight a war, to manufacture weapons, to protect yourself, etc.

Are you seriously doubting whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas? — Mikie

Didn't you read what I said. Here is what I said, "Water vapor, like CO2, is a greenhouse gas.

Does that sound like I am "doubting whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas".

Are you seriously suggesting that the rise in temperature we see globally is due to water vapor (a common denialist claim)? — Mikie

I am talking about the possible effects of water vapor in Eunice Foote's experiments. Did she allow for the amount of water vapor in each of the glass containers?

The amount of global warming from CO2 is affected by the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere. This is what causes polar amplification. There is not much water vapor in the atmosphere around the poles because it is cold, so adding CO2 causes a certain amount of global warming. But there is a lot of water vapor in the atmosphere around the equator so adding the same amount of CO2 causes less global warming than at the poles.

But as far as Foote’s specific experiment — who cares? — Mikie

You seem to care about Foote's experiment because you used it to show that the glass container with more CO2 heated up the fastest.

To save you from wasting more of your time, and my time, I will tell you what I believe. I believe:
- that CO2 is a greenhouse gas
- that humans are responsible for most of the increase in CO2 level above about 280 ppm
- that a lot of the increase in CO2 levels is due to the use of fossil fuels
- that the average temperature of the Earth has warmed by around 1.0 to 1.5 degrees Celsius since pre-industrial times

Does that make me a "denier" ?

Eh, fusion power would solve it along with other problems. Various parties are working on it. — frank

Would everybody use fusion power peacefully?

With great power comes great responsibility.

Are all people and countries responsible?

Most people want a hospitable world for future generations. — frank

The people who live in Moscow are probably most concerned about the future generations who will live in Russia.

Russians are probably most concerned about the future generations of Russians.
Americans are probably most concerned about the future generations of Americans.
Chinese are probably most concerned about the future generations of Chinese.
Indonesians are probably most concerned about the future generations of Indonesians.
Brazilians are probably most concerned about the future generations of Brazilians.

Not everyone is concerned about the future generations of everybody.

Many/most people are selfish and most concerned with looking after their own.

This is one of the reasons why climate-change/global-warming is unlikely to be "solved".

About climate-change/global-warming.

Plenty of solutions. They’re being employed as we speak. Hardly doomed. It’s a matter of time and political will. — Mikie

There is not much political will to do things that people don't want (if you live in a democracy). — Agree to Disagree

People do want them. — Mikie

Does everybody want climate-change/global-warming to be "solved" ?

Here is one example. There are many more.

There are nearly 12 million people who live in Moscow, Russia. All temperatures are in degrees Celsius.
– the average temperature of the coldest month = -12.1
– the average temperature of the year = +4.4
– the average temperature of the hottest month = +22.1

Are the people who live in Moscow “suffering” from global-warming? Or are they having street parties to welcome global-warming?

Note that you can still freeze to death at a street party in Moscow. Be sure to take a warm jacket.

Okay— so here’s a primer on climate change. Let me know where you get confused…

In explaining climate change, for people who are truly interested in learning about it, I always like to start with an easy experiment: you can take two glass containers -- one with room air and one with more CO2 added, and put it in the sun, seeing which one heats up the fastest. Easy, simple. In fact, Eunice Foote did exactly this experiment in 1856: — Mikie

The only thing that confuses me is how you can have such a simplistic view of climate change.

Questions about Eunice Foote's experiment:
- how much water vapor was in each glass container? Water vapor, like CO2, is a greenhouse gas.
- what was the concentration of CO2 in the glass container which had more CO2 ? Was the concentration of CO2 extremely high in that container?
- you say that the glass container with more CO2 heated up the fastest. But was there a temperature difference between the two containers after a time period long enough for equilibrium to be established?
- were the two glass containers subjected to a day/night cycle like the Earth is?
- Is the Earth in a glass container?

I look forward to reading your answers.

Oh wow, now the scientists are the ones flying around in private jets — Mr Bee

I never said "private jets". You are misquoting me.

So I’m seeing now that you’re just a fairly average climate denier coming here to spread old, tired canards. — Mikie

There is nothing "average" about my views on climate change. Calling me names seems to be your way of avoiding a real discussion of climate change.

Like with the ludicrous cow example? — Mikie

If you think that worrying about cows producing methane is ludicrous then please tell the people who think that this is problem that they are being ridiculous.

I have been seriously interested in climate change for at least 10 years. As well as looking at temperature anomalies I have also looked in detail at actual temperatures. I have collected temperature data for over 36,000 locations on the earth (see the following graph).



I have grouped this data into 216 countries so that I know the average temperature, the average winter temperature, and the average summer temperature for each country.

I have also combined the temperature data with population data for each country. I have a nice graph which shows the combined data.

Do I sound like "just a fairly average climate denier" to you?

The facts are quite clear; the climate scientists are quite clear. — Mikie

Do you mean the climate scientists who go on all expenses paid holidays each year (COP) to the worlds top tourist spots to discuss how everyone else should stop flying, etc. Of course the climate scientists fly to get to COP. Haven't they heard of Zoom meetings?

And your answer is “good luck trying to reduce numbers.” Got it. Excellent analysis. — Mikie

Cows are only one issue. There are many more.

I am not going to list them all. There are too many of them.

Please tell me any solution that you have and I will tell you why it won't work.

It’s true that this is a common myth used by industry — Mikie

Imagine that an oil company shuts down. What would happen?

A new oil company would start up to meet the gap between demand and supply, or an existing oil company would grow to meet the gap between demand and supply.

How does that "solve" climate change?

People have to reduce their demand to have any hope of "solving" climate change. And even that might not be enough.

No thanks. If it makes you feel better, believe whatever you’d like. Doesn’t change the facts. — Mikie

Many people are concerned about cows because they produce methane. Do you know how many cows there are in the world? Just under 1 billion.

32.62% are in India. Good luck trying to get them to reduce numbers.
20.62% are in Brazil. It is a major industry. Good luck trying to get them to reduce numbers.
10.77% are in China. Good luck trying to get them to reduce numbers.
9.47% are in the United States. Good luck trying to get them to reduce numbers.

I try to determine the facts. Many people just believe the propaganda.

When 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions, it’s not hard to see what the problem is. — Mikie

I believe that it is incorrect to hold those companies responsible for 71% of global emissions. The companies are only supplying what people demand. It is people who must reduce their demands. Then the companies will reduce the supply.

The biggest problem is that most people don't understand the real facts (they believe propaganda). And they don't see what the real solutions are.

Plenty of solutions. They’re being employed as we speak. Hardly doomed. It’s a matter of time and political will. — Mikie

There is not much political will to do things that people don't want (if you live in a democracy).

Are most people really willing to make the changes that are required?

Please tell me some of the "plenty of solutions", and I will tell you why they won't work.

Yea. When Greenland melts again, the oceans will rise by around 20 feet. — frank

How long do you think that this will take?

I live about 1 m (metre/meter) above sea level. Currently sea level is rising by about 3 mm per year. I don't need to worry for about 333 years. Even if sea level is rising at 5mm per year I don't need to worry for about 200 years. As Bobby McFerrin sang, "Don't worry, be happy".

Did you see they discovered that the Greenland ice sheet melted 416,000 years ago? That was in a previous interglacial, which is kind of astounding. It means the period we're in is on the mild side. The Greenland ice sheet could melt and we'd still be within normal limits for an interglacial. — frank

And fossil fuels had not been used when the Greenland ice sheet melted 416,000 years ago. Something else caused it. This also suggests that we are still within normal limits for an interglacial.

We should absolutely be scared senseless. This is unprecedented in human history. — Mikie

Assuming that your comment is true, what solutions are there that could REALISTICALLY work? I believe that there are no solutions that aren't doomed from the start. And many of the proposed solutions will actually make things worse.

We'll have to deal with this the rest of our lives... — ChatteringMonkey

"the rest of our lives" isn't very long for old people.

Just saying...

There are ways of getting around laws.

Instead of buying sex you buy a very expensive carrot. And the buyer of a very expensive carrot is given the option of sex for free. You are purchasing a carrot, not sexual services.

Similar to getting a free muffin if you buy a cup of coffee. But you can't buy a muffin by itself.