"Would you let animals like dogs die in order to create a vaccine that will save all of humanity?" — Arnie

What about using animals to test cosmetics?

Although they are not required by law, several invasive tests are performed on rabbits, mice, guinea pigs and rats. These can include skin and eye irritation tests where chemicals are rubbed onto the shaved skin or dripped into the eyes of restrained rabbits, without any pain relief.

Is this testing done for the greater good?

Hydropower may be renewable and clean, but it destroys the surrounding ecosystem. A small price to pay perhaps, but there is that. — Lionino

This song was written by John Hanlon and was adopted by the opponents of the Lake Manapouri dam.

It is called "Damn The Dam".

Leaf falls to kiss the image of a mountain
The early morning mist has ceased to play
Birds dancing lightly on the branches by a fountain
Of a waterfall which dazzles with its spray

Tall and strong and aged, contented and serene
The kauri tree surveys this grand domain
For miles and miles around him, a sea of rolling green
Tomorrow all this beauty won't remain

Damn the dam cried the fantail
As he flew into as he flew into the sky
To give power to the people
All this beauty has to die

Rain falls from above and splashes on the ground
Goes running down the mountain to the sea
And leaping over pebbles makes such a joyful sound
Such as Mother Nature's meant to be

I have grave reflection, reflection of a grave
Trees that once lived green now dead and brown
The homes of tiny animals and little birds as well
For the sake of man's progression have been drowned

Damn the dam cried the fantail
As he flew into as he flew into the sky
To give power to the people
All this beauty has to die

South Korean court hears children's climate change case against government

SEOUL, April 23 (Reuters) - South Korea's Constitutional Court began hearing on Tuesday a case that accuses the government of having failed to protect 200 people, including dozens of young environmental activists and children, by not tackling climate change.

The proceeding is Asia's first such climate-related litigation, the plaintiffs said, which includes four petitions by children and infants among others dating from 2020, as well as one from a foetus at the time, nicknamed Woodpecker. — Reuters

How did Woodpecker (a foetus) sign the petition? :chin:

Net zero has become unhelpful slogan, says outgoing head of UK climate watchdog

The concept of “net zero” has become a political slogan used to start a “dangerous” culture war over the climate, and may be better dropped, the outgoing head of the UK’s climate watchdog has warned.

But it was not just those who were against climate action who were causing the problem, according to Stark. Climate activists were also alarming people, he warned, and creating “quite a serious barrier to large parts of the political spectrum to support climate action” by forceful protests, and presenting environmental policies as radical.

“It would be more helpful if they were less divisive,” he said. “I don’t think it is radical. It’s really important that we stop using words like that, as it is understandably frightening.” — The Guardian

Best not to pay them any attention. — Mikie

You seem to constantly repeat this advice Mikie. Doesn't that prove that they are getting attention?

And Mikie, you seem to be giving them a lot of attention. Otherwise why would you need to give this advice constantly?

Are there things in the physical universe that we can never find out? — Vera Mont

Our knowledge allows us to build a model of the universe.

Over time our knowledge can increase and our model of the universe becomes better.

But our better model of the universe is still incomplete, unless our knowledge is infinite.

I don't believe that our knowledge can be infinite.

Therefore there are things in the physical universe that we can never find out.

Are there things in the physical universe that we can never find out? — Vera Mont

Whether unicorns exist.

I can put aside mental shorthand and tune into my visual field. I see color, light, dark, and lines. I can do that so thoroughly that I forget what it is my looking at — frank

Most people have 2 "local" visual fields, one from the left eye and one from the right eye. These 2 local visual fields overlap, but there are parts of each eye's local visual field which can't be seen by the other eye.

The brain combines the 2 local visual fields to create a "global" visual field.

There is a "blind spot" in each local visual field where the optic nerve enters the eye. When creating the global visual field the brain combines the 2 local visual fields in such a way that the blind spots are hidden. People are normally unaware of the blind spots, but they can be experienced under certain circumstances.

Your brain "tricks" you in a number of ways. Most people say that they can experience color over the whole global visual field. But the periphery of each local visual field only contains "rod" cells, which can only detect black and white. The "cone" cells which detect color are not found in the periphery.

The blood vessels in the eye lie near the retina, but between the retina and the lens. This means that shadows of the blood vessels fall on the retina. But your brain "tricks" you and you are normally not aware of them. They can be seen under certain circumstances.

Every time you blame cows for climate change, an oil executive laughs

Of all the climate solutions out there, maybe we should concentrate on the 97% of industrial emissions that come from fossil fuels, and leave the cows out of it, Eurof Uppington writes.

Given the press, you’d be forgiven for thinking that reducing cattle numbers and moving to a plant-based diet is a climate solution up there with electric vehicles and offshore wind.

Billions of dollars and euros and celebrity endorsements have been invested in plant-based and alternative protein startups. “Cows create global warming” is a truism of our time, shared by almost all right-thinking people.

The emerging truth appears different. Not only is the climate impact of cattle confused and overblown — properly managed, grazing cows and sheep can be a climate and biodiversity solution. — Eurof Uppington (euronews)

Do you mind if science is being controlled overall or just by the bureaucracy? It seems you want to set science and scientists free. — javi2541997

Science needs to be controlled in some way. So some degree of bureaucracy is required. But it should not be strongly biased towards one view.

To paraphrase Judith Curry:
Bureaucracy influences research funding priorities, the scientific questions that are asked, how the findings are interpreted, what is cited, and what gets canonized. Factual statements are filtered in assessment reports and by the media with an eye to downstream political use.

Here is a good description of academic life from Sabine Hossenfelder, who has many videos on YouTube:
It made me realize that this institute wasn’t about knowledge discovery.
It was about money making.
And the more I saw of academia, the more I realized it wasn’t just this particular
institute and this particular professor.
It was generally the case.

The moment you put people into big institutions the goal shifts from knowledge discovery to
money making.

You have to work on topics that are mainstream enough but not too mainstream.
You want them to be a little bit edgy.
But not too edgy.
it needs to be something that fits into the existing machinery.

Mikie, thank you for making this post. It is a good example of the sort of climate stupidity that is making the public distrust climate science and climate scientists.

Instead, it may be the far more numerous unremarkably hot days that cause the bulk of societal destruction, including through their complex and often unnoticed effects on human health and productivity. In the United States, even moderately elevated temperatures — days in the 80s or 90s Fahrenheit — are responsible for just as many excess deaths as the record triple-digit heat waves, if not more, according to my calculations based on a recent analysis of Medicare records — We Don’t See What Climate Change Is Doing to Us

.
Consider the different states in America. Some of the states are hotter than others (e.g. Texas, Florida, Louisiana) and some of the states are colder than others (e.g. North Dakota, Minnesota, Montana).

This article implies that the hotter states should have more societal destruction, and more effects on human health and productivity, than the colder states. Is that true?

The article also implies that the hotter states should have a greater number of excess deaths caused by moderately elevated temperatures than the colder states. Is that true?

A growing body of literature links temperature to cognitive performance and decision making. Research shows that hotter days lead to more mistakes, including among professional athletes; more local crime; and more violence in prisons, according to working papers. They also correspond with more use of profanity on social media, suggesting that even an incrementally hotter world is likely to be a nontrivially more irritable, error-prone and conflictual one. — We Don’t See What Climate Change Is Doing to Us

Do people from hotter states have worse cognitive performance and decision making than people from the colder states? Do people from hotter states make more mistakes and have more local crime than people from the colder states? Do people from hotter states use more profanity on social media than people from the colder states. Mikie, do you live in a hotter state or a colder state?

Children are not immune. In other research, my colleagues Joshua Goodman, Michael Hurwitz and Jonathan Smith and I found that across the country, hotter school years led to slower gains on standardized exams like the Preliminary SAT exams. It may not seem a huge effect, on average: roughly 1 percent of learning lost per one-degree-hotter school year temperatures. Probably hardly noticeable in any given year. But because these learning effects are cumulative, they may have significant consequences. — We Don’t See What Climate Change Is Doing to Us

Did hotter states have slower gains on standardized exams like the Preliminary SAT exams than colder states?

If 1 percent of learning is lost per one-degree-hotter school year temperatures, and the effects are cumulative, then the children from the hotter states must be slowly but surely becoming stupider than the children from the colder states. Mikie, do you live in a hotter state or a colder state?

Mikie, you really need to improve your "cut and paste" skills. Some of the text in your post has mysteriously changed from the original text in the article.

Original article text:
the devastation wreaked by climate change comes not just from headline-grabbing catastrophes but also from the...

Mikie's text:
the devastation wreaked by climate change is often just as much about headline-grabbing catastrophes as it is about the...

Why did the text change Mikie?
Did you make the change?

Where would you rather live, location A or location B ?

The graphs below show a compact characterization of the entire year of hourly average temperatures. The horizontal axis is the day of the year, the vertical axis is the hour of the day, and the color is the average temperature for that hour and day.

Based only on these average temperature graphs, where would you rather live, location A or location B ?

Note that location A and location B are real locations on the earth. I will reveal where the locations are after people have answered the question. Location A and location B are very close to being on the same line of longitude, and the straight line distance from location A to location B is about 490 kilometers.


© WeatherSpark.com


© WeatherSpark.com

The only problem with this type of exercise is that the dog does a lot of sniffing and we don't move very fast
— Agree-to-Disagree

Be tolerant and thankful for a furry companion. :cool: — jgill

I am extremely grateful for my furry companion. She is an apartment dog so I try to give her as much variety as possible. I want her to enjoy all of the things that dogs enjoy. Not moving very fast is not really a problem. It gives me time to enjoy my surroundings. :cool:

You say you are more able to talk with other people because you walk with your dog. Maybe you are referring to other dog owners... — javi2541997

Talking to other dog owners is easy because you have a common interest. But I am talking about other people as well. The dog that I walk is a smallish black spoodle called Molly. She is probably about 30 cm at the shoulder. She looks very cute and she loves people.

There are a lot of cafes around the beach where we often walk. She checks under the tables and chairs to try and find food. If there are people sitting at a table then Molly will go straight up to them and they will pet her. You can see the joy on the faces of these people. It makes me feel good to see Molly making people happy.

I try to avoid groups of people because it gives me anxiety, and walking with my dog makes me feel I am protected by a bubble. — javi2541997

I suffer from social anxiety but walking with Molly (the dog) reduces that anxiety a lot.

I wish I could walk more than just an hour with my dog. She is a small-dog breed, and she tends to get tired early... — javi2541997

Molly is about 9 years old and I am in my mid 60's. I get tired before she does. We walk at her speed with plenty of sniffing and we rest whenever she wants to. Molly is an apartment dog so I try to give her as much variety as possible.

I walk a dog for about 2.5 hours daily. It is not my dog. The dog's owner is an elderly lady who walks with a walking frame. So I walk her dog for her.

I have suffered from depression in the past and if I don't have a required reason to go out then I usually stay at home. The dog gives me a reason to get up and get going. The walking gets me outside and gives me exercise, fresh air, sunshine, etc, We often walk on the beach.

Walking with a dog also gives you an excuse to talk to people. If I didn't have the dog with me then I wouldn't talk to anybody. The dog gives me unconditional love.

The only problem with this type of exercise is that the dog does a lot of sniffing and we don't move very fast.

I'm neither as cynical, or as bothered, it seems — AmadeusD

I am not particularly bothered about climate change. But there are a number of things that annoy me.

-- :naughty: -- science seems to have sold its soul to the devil

-- :down: -- science is being controlled by bureaucracy

-- :scream: -- many things are exaggerated (scaremongering)

-- :zip: -- the public is not told the full story about many things

-- :roll: -- people are doing the wrong things to fight climate change

There are many other things about climate change that annoy me, but it is time for my afternoon nap. :yawn:

The good thing is that I will probably be long dead by the time the shit hits the fan. :grin:

much less cynical than Du Plessis-Allan — AmadeusD

I am a cynical and skeptical person.

Heather du Plessis-Allan's comments seem reasonable to me. Not enough people think about the climate deeply enough to make major changes for moral reasons. Many people don't like change, and most people don't want to give up the things that they enjoy.

What is being done to fight climate change at the moment is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. :roll:

Metal stair edges, leather sandals, two glasses of wine — Vera Mont

Were you wearing socks with those sandals? :grin:

Are you a Kiwi? — AmadeusD

Yes.

Rather an obscure source for this arena. — AmadeusD

An obscure source, but the points that are made are relevant to the switch to EVs and to human psychology.

Do you agree with the points that are made?

Does Mikie live or work in a building with exceptionally perilous stairwells? — Vera Mont

Mikie lives in his mother's basement.
There are steep stairs going down to the basement.
Any friends visiting Mikie are likely to fall down the stairs and injure themselves.
Luckily Mikie doesn't have any friends. :grin:

Quotes from an article by Heather du Plessis-Allan

The plant-based food craze is over

February 2020, I basically said fake meat is not a thing, it's not going to catch on. And that is when I met the woman from Sunfed, who actually tried to change my mind.

Shama Sukul Lee came into the studio with some meat-free bacon, and it was actually delicious. Credit to her, she had a great product. And she had money behind it, she has $10 million worth of investment, which included some pretty high profile backers.

But she couldn't turn a profit. And she says it’s because the "plant-based bubble burst".

You know what the problem is, don't you? (this is the bit that is relevant to EVs)

It's the same problem I think the EVs have got. Consumers en masse will only switch if what you give them is better.

But plant-based food is not better than a steak. And frankly, not enough of us think about the climate deeply enough to do it for moral reasons.

There's a lot of this going on at the moment, there's hype about new products that we will switch to for moral reasons, EVs being the most obvious example right now.

But look what’s happening to the EV market, there's a massive slump. And why? Because they’re still not better than petrol and diesel vehicles, particularly over longer distances.

If there’s one lesson from this, it’s that moral motivation is not enough. The product you give us has got to be better.

I disagree. — Lionino

Who are you disagreeing with?

Or do you disagree with everyone? :grin:

That really isn't an argument. — Vera Mont

Yes it is !!!

Why is everybody expected to argue about everything all the time anyway? — Vera Mont

A man logs in to "The Philosophy Forum".
Man: Ah. I'd like to philosophize, please.
Mikie: What do YOU want?
Man: Well, I would like to ask some questions about climate change...
Mikie: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! You are obviously a "DENIER".
Man: What?
Mikie: You are a selfish jerk. You have been sucked in by the oil companies. I wouldn't be surprised if you were being paid to deny things.
Man: But I came here to philosophize.
Mikie: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

The four types of climate denier, and why you should ignore them all — Mikie

There is only one type of climate activist. The gullible, unrealistic, idiot.

They should be ignored or mocked. :scream:

I see a pattern among members who aren’t that bright but who want to sound bright: claim everything is a “fallacy,” and use the phrase “That isn’t an argument” — like a magic wand, just wave it over anything you don’t like, can’t understand, or can’t engage with. — Mikie

What a waste of time— I’d like to see this stupid shit go away. — Mikie

Oh the irony. It burns. It burns.

These comments come from a person who never addresses the issues that are raised, and who calls the person raising the issues a "denier" (similar to saying "that isn’t an argument"). There is no explanation given. Is Mikie a member who isn't that bright, but who wants to sound bright? The label "denier" is used like a magic wand, just wave it over anything you don’t like, can’t understand, or can’t engage with. What a waste of time— I’d like to see this stupid shit go away.

As opposed to being a massive dick to people on some obscure philosophy forum? — RogueAI

Mikie doesn't want to accept reality. It is either Mikie's way or the highway.

Be careful. When Mikie is cornered he can be quite nasty.

The latest from our resident climate denial propagandist: — Mikie

:lol: What a bunch of imbeciles. — Mikie

Right, so it’s hopeless. Cool analysis. Bye. — Mikie

No thanks. If you feel nothing can be done, then go on doing nothing. — Mikie

Yes, because your expert knowledge on this issue is definitely worth paying attention to. :up: — Mikie

Note that Mikie considers himself to be an "expert" about climate change, and believes that he is superior to everybody else. If only the governments of the world and the oil companies would listen to Mikie then climate change would not be a problem. The people who still live in absolute poverty will happily obey Mikie. I hope that Mikie doesn't fall off his pedestal, or fall off his high horse.

Here are some interesting comments about School Strike for Climate.

A bigger problem with the School Strike for Climate is one set out beautifully in the Oxford Union Debate by Konstantin Kisin.

In short, there are billions of poor people in the world. They are really poor. Their children will struggle to get enough nutrition to develop properly. They are the 10 per cent or so who still live in absolute poverty. They can see a path to a richer life, and the developed world has already trodden it.

They want to use technologies that affordably raise our life expectancies, usually emitting lots of carbon dioxide. They’re not going to not do it, just like Westerners are not going to not feed their children. They will feed their children first and worry about emissions second. It should be a familiar pattern to Westerners.

Demanding that governments damage their economies in the name of climate science won’t help the planet. What will help, as Kisin concludes, is science and technology that allows the poorest people in the world to feed themselves without large emissions.

You can see Konstantin Kisin's part of the Oxford Union Debate on Youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo

A transcript is available.

From the video "Chaos in the Climate Casino"

Dr. Eliot Jacobson is a retired professor of mathematics, computer science, as well as a casino industry consultant.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson: Can I just add one thing to what you said much earlier in the conversation, and maybe we can go back and forth if you have thoughts on this. But the idea that the IPCC started out with the 1750 baseline. I actually tracked that down because, you know, there are some people who will argue that that was part of some fraud that was sort of being perpetrated on us to change how much we've really warmed.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson: I believe the language is they talk about the 30-year period centered on 1750, which would be 1735 to 1765, more or less, which is actually 31 years, I never quite got how they got 30 years out of that.

Dr. Eliot Jacobson is a "retired professor of mathematics, computer science, as well as a casino industry consultant". But he couldn't work out how they got 30 years out of the date range from 1735 to 1765.

Even I can do that (work out how they got 30 years out of the date range from 1735 to 1765) !!!. :nerd:

This makes a welcome change from climate activists glueing themselves to things. :grin:

In protest of the suggested ban on gas stoves, I’m staying taped to this stove forever. — Chef Andrew Gruel (@ChefGruel)

First there was Big Tobacco
Then there was Big Oil
Now there is Big Meat

The next big climate deadline is for meat and dairy

Nearly two decades ago, a United Nations report marked the livestock sector as one of the most polluting industries on the planet. Ever since, there’s been a steady drip of research on the need to scale back meat production in high- and middle-income countries.

[The meat] Industry is fighting back. A well-oiled PR machine composed of shadowy communications groups, industry-funded academics, and pro-meat influencers all push out the message that livestock aren’t so bad for the planet. Their claims have ranged from misleading scientific arguments to hollow corporate greenwashing to outright disinformation. — Vox (Kenny Torrella)

Does this sound familiar? :scream:

Up-front costs are a major reason why people are not electrifying their houses and buying EV's.

Is there a realistic solution to this problem?

Among the things that peeped up from the dirt in my woodland garden this spring is a... tropical houseplant. Dude. — frank

Dude, you are so lucky. Soon you will be living in a tropical paradise. :up:

Nevertheless we would have to find the "ego-neuron" so to speak to locate the point in space where all this information transmitted by our nerves come together to generate our experience of a "personality".
— Pez

I.e. we would need to find a homunculus? — wonderer1

Wouldn't we also have to find the "ego-neuron" of the homunculus?

Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ’em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.

The fundamental problem is to understand when we can say that the machine is doing anything, in the sense that humans do things. Can they be said to calculate, for example? — Ludwig V

If a person memorizes the "times tables", and uses them to work out the result of a multiplication, are they actually doing a calculation? :nerd:

There are many ways that people use to solve a mathematical multiplication. Most involve either using their memory, using a calculator, or using an algorithm. Computers normally use an algorithm. Doesn't that mean that computers calculate in a similar way to humans?

I think that some people believe that AI is hoisting itself up by its own bootstraps, programming itself, perhaps in some sense that is a precursor to sentience. In fact, AI is parasitically dependent on human intervention. — Pantagruel

At the moment humans are hoisting AI up. It is not hoisting itself up by its own bootstraps. If humans hoist AI up high enough then AI may gain the ability to hoist itself further without human intervention.

AI is parasitically dependent on human intervention at the moment, but may become independent in the future.

Humans doesn't carry out tasks for bacteria. Humans are not machines either. Humans are beings. Being has an existence and an essense — Abhiram

Humans carry out tasks for their pets. They provide food, water, warmth, and a home.
Humans do the same things for bacteria. They provide bacteria with food, water, warmth, and a home.
Humans may not think that they do tasks for bacteria, but bacteria help humans in a number of ways and humans would be worse off without them.

Estimates show that the typical adult human body consists of about 30 trillion human cells and about 38 trillion bacteria. So bacteria are in the majority.

A mutually beneficial relationship exists between the human intestine and many of its symbionts: the human intestine provides nutrients to the resident bacteria, whereas bacteria aid in the digestion of food and absorption of nutrients, produce vitamins such as biotin and vitamin K, regulate immune system function, and hinder the colonization of pathogenic microorganisms.

Humans can be considered to be biological machines.

The Cambridge dictionary defines "being" as "a person or thing that exists". Bacteria are alive and are therefore "beings".

If you are familiar about the yogic system of indian philosophy there is a clear cut definition to reach higher states of being. Almost all of the Indian philosophy tries to achieve a state of perfection and provides a practical method which anyone could follow. Astangayoga is the path for perfection proposed by yogic system of patanjali. — Abhiram

I am not familiar with Astangayoga (eight limbs of yoga). Is the correct spelling Ashtanga?

What evidence is there that Ashtanga yoga is superior to any other belief system?

"The more AI models consume AI-created content, the more likely they are to "collapse," researchers find" — Pantagruel

This is not limited to AI models. It affects humans as well.

Approximately 62% of information on the internet is unreliable.
https://www.businessdit.com/fake-news-statistics

How Much of the Internet Is Fake?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/how-much-of-the-internet-is-fake.html

Consumers are ‘dirtying’ databases with false details
https://www.marketingweek.com/consumers-are-dirtying-databases-with-false-details

The genuine article? One in three internet users fail to question misinformation
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2022/one-in-three-internet-users-fail-to-question-misinformation

Tips (for humans) to help spot misinformation
1 - Check the source. This isn't necessarily who shared the information with you, but where it originated from.
2 - Question the source. Are they established and trustworthy, or might they have a reason to mislead?
3 - Take a step back. Before you take something at face value, think about your own motives for wanting to believe it.

AI will need to follow a similar set of rules to stop Model Collapse. Being able to identify AI as the source of content would help a lot.