@tim wood,
Thank you for your time and patience. So the current solution is to compress a number (as many as is "logical") of inputs into a single variable/step to save the number of steps, hence time etc. But, computing is still a one step at a time method/programme....Vaguely right?
And the search is for beyond the draconian sequencial limits of logic i.e. what Shawn calls "a formal and consistent complexity class" that is still "logical"? A bit like Quantum and Relativity needing not only a unifying theory but also not too sure about the Quantum bit yet.

just scratched the surface smile

@tim wood & @Shawn
Being honest and lazy, no!
And a paragraph or two explaining the "implications of[ and what are] Godel's Incompleteness Theorems" may stimulate interest. For sure, there will be differences of understanding/opinion of those two 'bits' for starters.

personally interested but clueless smile

@Shawn,
"from dreams, changed futures may occur". Don't stop dreaming,who knows what connections of value may occur.
@Carlo Roosen,
"I should......own domain."
Disagree.
Venturing out of your own field, learning from other realms and synthesizing/grafting back into and between the fields/realms may produce logjam busting advances.

For you both, this is just an well meant opinion.
And as an aside, with near zero relationship to/understanding of the terminology used in this OP, watching the different approach by each participant was very interesting in furthering philosophic interest.
leaving understanding terminology aside smile

@SophistiCat
"...it reads as if it was ripped out of some ongoing discussion"
Agreed

@I like sushi
"I am just playing.......colloquial language use" Well explained and justified.
Shame it can't be used as a defense in law. Be a different world.
Just citing a random imagining, not citing an "implication" (with all the causation that word connotes)

Dreams, hallucinations and imagination don't fit easily into discussions on consciousness, do they?

@Tom Storm,
"I recall...wanted to engage with the world more fully"
Poignant comment with the age limit for social media debate currently going on amongst Australian "adults".
open eyed smile

@punos,
Well defended and agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of your intention.

cheerful smile

@punos,
Sometimes, maybe, the Delphic priests were rebellious and cynical towards the orthodoxy of the olympian pantheon and, using their well developed method of obscurity and opacity declared that by looking at mankind's mental creativeness, gods and reality are man made and influenced, not the reverse? A bit naughty for their social environment, but maybe after an amphora or two of temple offerings, inhibitions were lowered?
Keeping an eye on those priests smile

@Echogem222,
Just a quick series of questions to improve an understanding of your OP.
Can objective time ever be observed from 'within the universe' without invoking E/stien's relativity of time to the observer effect? If yes, how and under what conditions? If no, what about from 'outside the universe', imagining that to be possible and dependent upon a favorably restrictive definition of " what is the universe?"
enjoying smile

@punos,
Understand your overall direction/intention of "One of ..main methods of understanding something...building knowledge logically and rationally from zero upwards'
But begs the question to be asked: Isn't it impossible to build any knowledge (or understanding) of anything from 'scratch'? By which it is understood from no basis of knowing (or believing) anything else at all.
With reflection,a bit logically,rationally and absolutistically illogical, irrational and too all encompassing, don't you think?
Just an observation, not a put down, but statements of such an all encompassing scope/ nature are hard to logically and rationally defend. And may not help bring waivering audiences over to your thinking in regards the OP. If that is your intention?

gentle smile

@fdrake,
A creative juxtaposition.
The Shortest History of Japan by Lesley Downer
The first sentence of the Introduction: 'The story of Japan begins with a dance.' was a fair hook and bait to continue light reading.

@fdrake,
Sorry, not intending to disagree with or question your erudition. Just sharing a personal memory. Or maybe a brain skip that is now a personal memory.

smile

@fdrake,
The above popular work must have been coterminous with M McLuhan's popularity because the term (.... the massage) was around in the mid 60's and associated with McLuhan.... from personal memories. And was interpreted then as the massively increasing power-to-influence media would have in "massaging" ideas i.e. popular opinion, in a particular 3rd party desired direction. Thereby,forecasting examples of what we now see as social media influencers by its (media's) increasing pervasive presence in the day to day.
Unfortunately, evidence of this is only anecdotal/a schoolchild's sometimes scratchy memory..

self depreciating smile

@fishfry,
"When the grid goes down..." most investors holding gold investments won't have access to "their" physical gold. Isn't it held in trust in some Fort Knox like depositories? The securities of which are both grid dependent and have some physical blunt force inaccessibilities built into the structures.

Isn't Value a function of demand, supply and (perceived) usefulness where all Commodities (i.e. all things tradeable) are concerned? Or is that just too naive a view to be applied to cryptocurrencies?

Curious smile

@T Clark,
Agreed.
It would be welcome if the arguments were cutting, but the tone respectful. Most people have little choice as to where they live/are born. It is their ignorance that can be changed by themselves if they so desire....well in most of the "free world" anyway, however you choose to understand "free world" and the level of one's own ignorance. Nothing more than an opinion.
empathetic smile

@Ciceronianus,
In the political arena, it may be suggested that the ( potentially) destabilizing nihilist and anarchist of 19th century has reformed into the (potentially) destabilizing domestic terrorist in the current public's political perceptions, The names ( nihilist/ anarchist to terrorist) may have changed, but their desire for political change .i.e. power change still motivates. And the greater the desired power change, the more nihilistic/anarchistic this change would be/is perceived by the current encumbants of power.
If this suggestion/argument about nihilism and power manipulation is extended into other nihilisms. For example, moral nihilism, using Postmodern beatnik's illustration, would be the change or loss of the power held in or by(absolute) "moral truths" as a persuasive instrument to justify certain actions as being morally worthy.
How long before, the term 'terrorist" is applied in to more nihilisms of...? ( It may already have been used?)
curious smile

@fdrake
Any idea of the origin of "the medium is the massage"?

@frank,
So you get to read all the crackpot ideas that get binned? Lucky you.

Cheeky smile

@ToothyMaw,
No problems with terms, so long as we both understand sufficiently to progress. Agreed?

You've recognized that an evil action needs a distinguishing status or, as you've suggested, an initial factor or value ( of magnitude?) of evilness assigned to it at its time of commission, (as well as the growth over time).
Which raises the question: Can two evil actions be put in any significant order of magnitude (i.e. be distinguished as to their evilness) at the time of their commission without an examination of all of their current and future consequences?
And also the question:Would an attempt of reparation to alleviate / to stop the ongoing and/or future evil consequences, be justifiable on the basis of distinguishing evilness as more or less when its full evilness is not yet realized compared to another evil action that has exhausted its consequences? Your OP'S Points (3) & (4) (Objectively, a both for and against leaning, perhaps?)
Put simply, are the consequences of evilness, or the original status of evilness ( or the compilation of both) reason to give reparations? As this distinction would have moral repercussions where limited resources were being allocated between historical evils, and initial status and duration of evil are being posited as an argument of magnitudes ( of importance to allocate one over the other).
Hopefully you recognize the drift of the above.
Cheerful smile

@Vivek,
Yes. Enslaving the conquered, to some degree, by the victor precedes the concept of "European" on all continents with the exception of Antarctica. Although, some first nations' people may use their lack of written history to argue the contrary.
This thread is about the validity of a process or compilation of an argument with the example of application of such to a consequence of African slaves/slavery. The historical duration of enslavement within and between various tribes/clans of Africans is recognized. But can you show its relavence to this OP, please.

@T Clark'
Thanks. Will read it.
For now a tired smile

@ToothyMaw,
More questions to open up more possible conclusions than an argument based on taking a different philosophical stance, is he intention. But if you're more comfortable using traditional disputational philosophic processes, no probs. Whatever's comfortable.

It is understood that your OP, among other points, is asking an assessment of the idea that some evil actions have ongoing bad consequences and therefore can be rated on a scale of evilness with greater evil being that which has longer ongoing bad consequences(i.e.(1)).
If you agree in general terms this is close enough to your intentions, then the question is put, "Can some evil actions become seen as evil only after an appreciable period of time has elapsed?". To which you agreed, yes?
It is understood point (2) of the OP is the assertion that if the evil action's consequences continue to the present, that scales up the original evilness of the action. Agreed?
If you answer yes, then this question could be asked. "Does the older the evil action, that's consequences are still felt in the present, the more evil is that action mean that the oldest of such evil actions ( with current consequences) should be, for example, condemned more actively than more recent actions ( and adding your agreement to the time gap question regarded as evil sometime after their commission)? ( put another way, be considered worse morally?)
If you agree then at this point the question can be asked, " Are all recent evil actions ( recognized as such immediately or subsequently) never going to achieve equal or highest evilness status until the older evil actions are deemed to no longer have consequences?
Can you see where this is leading? Off subject you may claim perhaps rightly, but also perhaps into a morality of evil minefield, you may agree.
Apologies for tardy replies, just a slow thinker.
self deprecating smile

@T Clark,
Thanks for your patience regards posting comments. Not the strongest point.
Will take your advise re: "...you to look at them". Thanks.

Please insert the word "(variously)" between "This question is put because... answering"
Sorry

ToothyMaw,
Do you claim only those actions to be evil that are seen/believed by "many" to be evil at the time of enactment? Or.....?
Put differently, can an action not be seen as evil at the time of its enactment but that same action be seen as evil "down the historical track"?
This question is put because answering it may go to the heart of 1) i.e. defining "the magnitude of evil", possibly the validity of your assertion of 2) i.e."scales upward with its length....to the present", may suggest another timeline argument cited in 3) i.e."claim the bad effects......are no longer present" and "must object to 1)" and may upset the balance of the assertion/conclusion of 4).
It is hoped that this comment shows a 'fairly close to your point/s' understanding.
fair smile.

T Clark,
You were correct, quite interesting. Any other examples or expansions on this or other rationales of how/why reality is perceived/perceiveable in a particular way, in Lorenz's book?
One question ( not the only one though) that springs to mind, in keeping with the speculative part of this OP, is: Might living things have extra senses that are currently not recognized but influence the experience of everything?
interested smile

And what are these competent economists' individual politics/philosophies/schools of education and thought? That is what are their personal wheelbarrows?
slightly cynical smile

T Clark,
Art48 may be being purposely provocative with elitist bias using those words you outlined and throughout this OP's opening salvo. But that there is a concern, regarding the views of fellow voters being the results of this type of thinking, held by many other voters is a valid issue. Not only is this an issue in the US context, but also amongst voters in geopolitically allied/ aligned nations where this religious thinking is gaining traction. That it ( this type of religious thinking) appeals to some who will possibly, if organized correctly, noticeably influence or transform the outcomes of democratic elections in other nations as it may in the US, is not to be taken lightly, as history shows.
Agreed not all, of this religious persuasion, can realistically be written off as "the most uneducated... among(st) us". But given the nature of geography based ( i.e. electoral boundaries) democracy and the electoral college voters system of US presidential elections, the great example of democratic nationhood that the US espouses to be and wants to encourage in the world may not be very appealing to the growing better educated world citizens.
There is no argument intended that this is the only issue of concern nor that changes in technologies haven't amplified these types of concerns to possibly have world wide ramifications.
The above is not intended to denigrate your reaction, but merely to offer a different reaction, or opinion, if you will.
concerned for one's personal future smile

javi,
Don't undersell your input. It took you two together to land that fish.
To be precise, frank wrote " I think at least by Sept, the Fed will lower rates".
It occurred in Sept.
But allowing for regional variation in language, still accurate enough to prevent a global financial cry sis....lol.

frank and javi,
Noticed the US Fed Res has cut the interest rate by 50 points. You were both close enough in your 4mths ago forecast of around Sept. And now how Wall St took a fall blaming it on the cut.
Baden,
Or some Don Juans could swim. Don't the Cornish blame the Phonecian tin trade for their swarthiness. Nothing to do with historical isolation and parochial marriages, of course.
dry smile

jafar,
Congrats on starting your successful OP. You are doing well "managing" it by continuing to do what you are doing. Philosophy can be as intellectualized or as down to earth as you may view and want it. This forum caters for the academic to the everyman approach to philosophic discourse. Decide where on that spectrum you are comfortable now and learn to be comfortable everywhere on the spectrum by asking questions and reading, reading and reading. There are usually plenty of references quoted in the academic multilogues.( or is it polylogues).Plus, most of the" professionals".here will provide references if politely asked.
This is just a suggested opening approach. i.e. an opinion.
good luck smile

Sorry, didn't mean hyjack/side rail the discussion.
apologetic smile

Free will is only a (creative or illusory) justification for the outcomes of actions that are the exercise of power.
Free will is not the or a source of power.
Free will can not confer the power to act.
And any decision to act is pointless without the power to act.

a smile by any other name is still the contraction of the same facial muscles.

No. Parallel "thinking" is happening elsewhere about the topic.
Nothing unusual....?
smile

Later, wonder if it's a dream and thereby accept it is not.
smle

Establish if there is anyone else.Establish how safe from what had removed everyone else. Initially spend little time feeling and thinking of internal stuff.....of course, the circumstances will influence actions and reactions.
curious smile

Keith,
Good. Keep the thread on topic. encouraging smile

Tzeentch,
Nihilists would/could live short " living proof(s) of the...........". smile.
Tom Storm,
Glad that's cleared up.:grin:

Sorry, perhaps "...interpreting from.."rather than "...guessing at..." is a better expression by way of explanation.

Surprised by your reaction. Merely agreeing that philosophic understanding is best served by examination of the expressed thoughts than guessing at the circumstances of philosophers' lives, much of which is conjecture from a later era.
Apologies, thought you may have seen a connection between ballsports having a process to purpose and philosophic processes.with purpose.