• Grundlagenkrise and metaphysics of mathematics
    Of course you can also trace the emergence of quantity to contradictions inherit in sheer, indeterminate being :grin:Count Timothy von Icarus

    Where is this from?
  • Grundlagenkrise and metaphysics of mathematics
    if every possible universe exists, then we seem to run into all sorts of undetermination problems and issues that are somewhat akin to the Boltzman Brain problem, although differentCount Timothy von Icarus

    That is true. Speaking of the Boltz, we had a leeenghty quarrel about this on the thread "Reasons to believe in the existence of the world", starting here, a few pages later the multiverse of probability is brought up and imo it is a very troublesome thought experiment.

    This caused Tegmark to revise the hypothesis such that only computable objects exist.Count Timothy von Icarus

    This makes it appear that Tegmark's original theory was a sort of naturalised really-full-blooded platonism and later was changed to a simple naturalised full-blooded-platonism. If "computable object" here has some relation to consistency.

    RFBP—really full blooded platonism—can do the trick just as well, where RFBP differs from FBP by allowing entities from inconsistent mathematics.https://academic.oup.com/philmat/article-abstract/7/3/322/1440511

    If we come to have mathematical intuitions and develop mathematical ideas, we do not do so in isolation, so how does this tie back to the world?Count Timothy von Icarus

    Good point, this feels like yet another troublesome question that arises from psychologism. A question whose answer might be a defeater for psychologism.

    it's really not that different from questions as to whether cats, trains, atoms, recessions, communism, etc. all really exist, if they are "mind-independent,"Count Timothy von Icarus

    But then again, prima facie there is nothing necessary about the idea of cats, protons, or communism. It could be that numbers are innate ideas, being then "world-independent".
  • Do we live in a dictatorship of values?
    God's Favorite CountryCiceronianus

    You are Brazilian? Or maybe God is not a patriot.
  • Do we live in a dictatorship of values?
    miniTrumpVera Mont

    Wow, Trump truly is an all-encompassing, omnipresent, orange god-emperor.
    The Indians are so right.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    How do you know it was an accurate translation?Corvus

    That does not matter. You said «No publication on Descartes says "I am thinking, therefore I am." That sounds like your imagination.». I showed otherwise. You are wrong.

    Anyway, "I am thinking" is no much different from "I think" in terms of not able to link to "I am"Corvus

    That is not the point at all. You are wrong, don't change subjects yet again to more nonsense.

    And thinking has objects and contentCorvus

    You yourself don't even know what you mean by these words.

    What were the content and object of "Cogito"?Corvus

    It doesn't matter, Descartes' argument is about the very act of thinking, not about what the thought is about.
  • The Gospels: What May have Actually Happened
    1. There are historical elements to the testimony in the New TestamentBrendan Golledge

    There are many historical elements to the Iliad, yet no one today believes that Diomedes clashed swords with Ares or slapped Aphrodite. No one even believes most of the non-supernatural elements, such as Achilles slaying Hector or the funerary games, everybody thinks those are fiction. Back then, some believed the Iliad was an accurate depiction of the events told.

    2. Early Christians were willing to die for their belief in the content of the New TestamentBrendan Golledge

    Early muslims and modern muslims were and are willing to die for their belief. And?

    "In 1997, William Ryan, Walter Pitman, Petko Dimitrov, and their colleagues first published the Black Sea deluge hypothesis. They proposed that a catastrophic inflow of Mediterranean seawater into the Black Sea freshwater lake occurred around 7600 years ago, c. 5600 BC"Brendan Golledge

    And to this day this hypothesis has not been proven. Even if it were, it is still likely that Hebrew mythology is just borrowing from Mesopotamian mythology.

    nonchristian sources agree on some of the main points, such as that Jesus was crucifiedBrendan Golledge

    What non-Christian source says that Jesus was crucified?
  • Grundlagenkrise and metaphysics of mathematics
    Also quaint how I used a quote from this same https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism/#5 article to prove a point in a mostly unrelated thread one day before I posted this thread https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/890378 :razz: I had forgotten
  • Who is morally culpable?
    You are lying. I have experienced suffering myself and have witnessed the suffering of others. Although I have not yet died, I will. You will, too.Truth Seeker

    I inserted that impression into your memories with my unlimited power. It was nothing but an illusion.
  • The Blind Spot of Science and the Neglect of Lived Experience
    So, if there are anomolies in the movement of galaxies, they can only be due to matter, even if it is of a kind we have no knowledge of. Because, what else is there?Wayfarer

    Well, I was under the impression that by 'matter' you meant physical things in general instead of just conventional matter. But if that is not the case then, nevermind. :yum:
  • Grundlagenkrise and metaphysics of mathematics
    (Rationalist) philosophers claim that we have a special, non-sensory capacity for understanding mathematical truths, a rational insight arising from pure thought

    Let's examine it then. If our best epistemic theories are right (our physical bodies exhaust our knowledge), Benecerraf's problem stands. If they are not right (the physical plus the non-physical exhaust our knowledge), there is perhaps no such interaction problem.

    Benecerraf's problem is that there is a chasm between the mathematical object and the human knower. Benecerraf's problem claims there is a chasm, and indeed there should be one if our best epistemic theories are right. But not only is there a chasm, but even if one bridges it, one must explain how that bridge works, instead of inserting an ad hoc substance that works exactly for that purpose (god of the gaps); the problem isn't the interaction itself but how interaction occurs, otherwise interactivist dualism would be a widely rejected view, but it is not.
    OA4eqd8.png

    But then let's say we have such non-physical faculty to attain knowledge. There is no guarantee that that non-physical faculty through which we gather knowledge is compatible in substance with the abstract objects we are supposedly interacting with¹ — in a way that it does not generate another interaction problem on top of it. Let's say it is compatible, and as the rationalists say "we have a special, non-sensory capacity for understanding mathematical truths". The problem is still how that faculty works to understand mathematical truths. It seems no one has given a satisfactory explanation. And it seems no one has yet given reasons (evidence) why one should believe that such faculty exists, as explanation for how we come to understand something can be summoned for a great variety of fictional objects, yielding a fictional explanation.

    Frege, who had quite a bit to say about that, believed in the reality of abstract objects, which nominalism explicitly does notWayfarer

    True, there are logicists who are realists. The article howevers ties logicism to realism. I am wondering how that is the case, how is it that logicism requires realism? Or is it an inaccurate claim?

    So perhaps the 'crisis' is actually a manifestation of a problem at the foundations of naturalism itself, but it's kind of an 'emperor's new mind' type of scenario where nobody wants to admit it.Wayfarer

    Well, the crisis is that we are left without a mathematical foundation after the paradoxes of Cantor's set theory :smile:

    Philosophical dualism and mathematical platonism have no such difficulties.Wayfarer

    1 – As the SEP says on the same article:
    The idea of an immaterial mind receiving information from an abstract object seems just as mysterious and confused as the idea of a physical brain receiving information from an abstract object.

    And this solution of an immaterial mind interacting with abstract objects then brings the issue of the integration of the physical (sense-perception) with the immaterial (reason), how we are able to mix mathematical knowledge with empirical knowledge when building scientific theories — which ultimately is just the mind-body interaction problem, which is beyond the scope of the thread, but it is another layer of explanation that this theory would require.
  • Who is morally culpable?
    I did, I do, and I will. You simply do not grasp that I have prevented all suffering, inequality, injustice and deaths because of your limited, non-all-knowing mind.
  • Do we live in a dictatorship of values?
    swordswomen as well, no doubtCiceronianus

    I looked up "hungarian swordswomen" and the only thing that popped up was men.
  • Who is morally culpable?
    I would have prevented the removal of my omniscience and omnipotence by you or anyone else!Truth Seeker

    Would you? How do you know that after I took your powers away? :smirk:
  • Who is morally culpable?
    If you had done the tasks on the list, I would be all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful. While I am all-loving, I am definitely not all-knowing and all-powerful.Truth Seeker

    You were, but I took the powers away from you shortly after.
  • Who is morally culpable?
    Not done!Truth Seeker

    I can't force you to believe me.
  • Who is morally culpable?
    1. Live forever without consuming any oxygen, fluids, or food.
    2. Do things other organisms e.g. tardigrades, dolphins, chameleons, etc. can do.
    3. Teleport everywhere and everywhen.
    4. Prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths.
    5. Make all living things (including the dead ones and the never-born ones) forever happy.
    6. Be all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful and make all the other beings also all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
    7. Own an infinite number of universes and give all beings an infinite number of universes each for free.
    Truth Seeker

    Done. What next?
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    Conclusion is always consequent of the premises. You never conclude something, then list premises afterwards.Corvus

    And the conclusion of "I think" is "I am". :cry:

    No publication on Descartes says "I am thinking, therefore I am." That sounds like your imagination.
    It clearly says "I think, therefore I am."
    Corvus

    Wrong.

    The earliest known translation as "I am thinking, therefore I am" is from 1872 by Charles Porterfield Krauth (The Penn Monthly, Volume 3)
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    Anyway, Descartes did not know English, he never went to England, he did not write in English. He wrote in French and Latin. The statements are "je pense donc je suis" and "cogitō ergo sum".
    The Larousse dictionary is clear:

    1. Marque la conclusion d'un raisonnement, la conséquence d'une assertion ; en conséquence, par suite de quoi : J'ignore tout de la question, donc je me tais.
    "Donc" marks a logical conclusion. Je suis is the conclusion of je pense.

    Ergo means the same as donc, Gaffiot 2016:
    2 ergō, (5) conj. de coordination, donc, ainsi donc, par conséquent : Enn. d. Cic. CM 10 ; Cic. Fin. 2, 34, etc. || [avec pléonasme] : ergo igitur Pl. Trin. 756 ; itaque ergo Ter. Eun. 317 ; Liv. 1, 25, 2 ; 3, 31, 5, etc. || [concl. logique] : Cic. Fin. 2, 97 ; 5, 24 ; Læl. 88, etc.; ergo etiam Cic. Nat. 3, 43 ; 3, 51 ; ergo adeo Cic. Leg. 2, 23, donc aussi, donc encore

    You see then it marks conclusion too. From "cogitō" I can conclude that "sum".

    There is in fact a whole debate around the translation to English, and the fact that Latin and French don't separate imperfective present (I am doing) form prefect present (I do) like English does, resulting in "I think therefore I am" when instead it should be "I am thinking therefore I exist".
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    It is like saying "I am tipsy, therefore I drank", which is obviously true, while "I am drinking therefore I will be tipsy" is untrue.
  • The Blind Spot of Science and the Neglect of Lived Experience
    quantum physics is incompleteWayfarer

    This relates to the lack of quantum theories explaining some observed phenomenons. The overwhelming majority of scientists will agree that it is matter that will explain things like entanglement and local gravity, and it is not due to bias, as many scientists will not agree that it is matter that will explain consciousness.
  • The First Concept
    :up: It is the classical drawing empirical conclusions from a priori premises.

    Gnomon is asking what title should be affixed to this conversation.ucarr

    :chin: I guess the thread answered its own question?
  • Grundlagenkrise and metaphysics of mathematics
    A wonderful topic, but I suspect that there is too much here for a single threadBanno

    I had that in the back of my mind, which is why I considered calling it a "mega-thread" from where we could branch out other threads if there was enough interest in a particular subject. But I found that to be overly arrogant and dropped the idea.
    The OP is introductory however, and focusing on only one part would leave context out in such a way to harm understanding. It is hard to talk about nominalism without talking about platonism. It had to be done in the whole package, but I hope that the thread will inspire more threads on the philosophy of mathematics here.

    proof-path

    When he says proof-path, is he referring to the syntax which we use to prove theorems? It seems Wittgenstein falls into nominalism then, which is that we build mathematics.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    He could doubt physical reality, he could doubt the existence of other minds, he could doubt the existence of gods or dogs or whatever, but if he doubted thought, the wall he hits is that that doubt is a thought...flannel jesus

    :ok:

    I do not think the Cogito convincing, on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Monday, and Wednesday, I'm quite convinced. Friday and Saturday, I take an agnostic position. Sundays, I rest.

    Now, you think the Cogito is grounds for being 100% certain of your existence, on the basis of an intuition... is that right?
    Banno

    Funny how you are the one who is playing the skeptic now :snicker: the tables turn
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    So, do we agree that "p⊃q" is invalid?Banno

    The shape p→q is invalid under a broad definition of invalid, yes. Before you question me on what I mean by "broadly invalid", I will quote flannel quoting the SEP:

    Valid: an argument is valid if and only if it is necessary that if all of the premises are true, then the conclusion is true; if all the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true; it is impossible that all the premises are true and the conclusion is false.

    A notion of validity seems to imply that there are premises and a conclusion, which p→q does not have. So under a broader notion of invalid (where validity does not even apply), p→q would be invalid, yes.

    If yes, then do we agree that the Cogito is "I think, therefore I am"?Banno

    The translation of cogitō ergo sum is "I think therefore I am", nothing else.

    If no, then what is the Cogito?Banno

    First-person singular of the present indicative tense of the verb cogitāre.
    If you are asking what Descartes' argument is, I summarised it a few posts above a few times. For the actual argument, I can only recommend the books.

    1. I think ⊃ I exist. (Cogito, assumption)
    2. I think. (assumption)
    3. ⊢ I exist. (1.2, MPP)
    Banno

    Descartes did not put his argument in syllogistic form, so there are a few ways you could translate it. Still, I will concede that is not Descartes' argument.

    That as such, it would be circular?Banno

    If you are using ⊃ as material implication, is this https://www.umsu.de/trees/#(p~5q),p|=q circular? The problem for me is again that the first premise is unproven, not that it is circular.

    And it seems we agree that the Cogito isBanno

    Descartes' argument itself is not an intuition, it is a full-fledged argument as I have shown and as can be verified in the books. It relies on intuitions, like any argument does. An intuition is a belief that is not proven by inference or by experiment. Descartes is not worried to try to prove everything, he uses hyperbolic doubt, not unbounded doubt, so he does not doubt things that could not be otherwise (something thinking but not existing, or 2+2=5).

    Then, returning to the topic, do we have some basis for thinking that this intuition counts as part of the 100% certain knowledge that the OP seeks?Banno

    If the OP does not wish to doubt our basic intuitions of reason, which would undermine reason itself, Descartes' argument would count as something certain.
    But then again, now OP seems to be sure even of things that he has no way of knowing for sure, such as the day of his birth.

    Well put.
  • The Gospels: What May have Actually Happened
    I have to say that your investment on the topic overtakes mine in such a way that I can't give a reply on the same level. I welcome the counterarguments, and as a topic it seems we will never really reach a good degree of certainty, and I agree with the frustration of things being presented as "consensus" when it is little more than a "generally agreed upon opinion".
  • Who is morally culpable?
    I think this is a good question. My view is that we should not blame the fish for swimming. Some people cannot help themselves but do what they do, regardless of whether hard determinism is true or not. But we should also not help ourselves against jailing those that pose a threat to us. It might just be that socially and psychologically stressing over a serial killer, ultimately over the question of "Why did you do that?", might be as pointless as asking the hurricane "Why did you destroy my house?".

    if determinism is true, then we are determined to assign moral culpability to everyone180 Proof

    :ok:

    Is anyone actually morally culpable?Truth Seeker

    For me morality is a complete human invention (non-realism), so moral guilt has to be assigned, it is never actual.

    In that case, X is not actually culpableTruth Seeker

    Well, yes, because "actually culpable" for you seems to imply free will. So under determinism no one is "actually culpable". Conclusion follows from the premises.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    So are you, in a somewhat constipated fashion, saying that the cogito is not an inference, but an intuition?Banno

    We have literally gone over that before. Fine.

    "I think, therefore I am", rendered as "p⊃q", is invalid.Banno

    This is wrong. Not even wrong, it is pointless, and it could be remediated by reading Descartes¹. His "argument" is not "I think therefore I am", that is the conclusion of the whole Second Meditation. It is a very classical syllogism of the type "Socrates is mortal", and I have addressed it when talking to Beverley already.
    Whatever thinks, exists.
    I think.
    I exist.
    The first premise is an intuition, the conclusion is not, because it very clearly derives from the premises (inference). We start with a universal, then to a particular, then the exclusion of the middle term.

    1 – Has anyone here?

    You then say:

    What you call "the complete argument" is obviously circular. Hardly convincing.Banno

    It is not circular, as I have shown clearly, otherwise "Socrates is mortal" is a circular argument even though it is the most classical Aristotelian syllogism that gives us what a deduction is.
    Which I explain here https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/890828

    And by the way

    You are playing on "solid" here, on the he misapprehension that we can only know stuff if we are certain of it, if our belief is indubitable.Banno

    No you. If "solid" can mean anything in the context of belief, it is a belief that can't be doubted.
  • Nourishment pill
    maybe you could come up with a pill to stop the need for that as well.Sir2u

    Don't worry, the government is already on it.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    That is why he wrote Meditations and not Disputations or theorems and problems. By doing this he wanted so send a clear message that he didn’t want to deal with anyone unwilling to join him in meditating and attending closely. Those who are set to attack the truth, just for that sake, are less suited in perceiving it, for instead of properly attending to the convincing arguments which support the truth, they’d be busy with looking for counter-arguments to deny it.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    The part I quoted is not even that, it is this:

    Here's a seperate point, made by Corvus, Beverly and myself, and pretty much unaddressed by others: It has not been shown that the Cogito is valid.

    Indeed, in propositional logic, the Cogito would be rendered
    1. p ⊃ q
    Which is invalid.
    Banno

    Which I have already addressed when you made the same claim some two pages back.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    Here's a seperate point, made by Corvus, Beverly and myself, and pretty much unaddressed by others: It has not been shown that the Cogito is valid.

    Indeed, in propositional logic, the Cogito would be rendered
    1. p ⊃ q
    Which is invalid.
    Banno

    It feels as if we are going back in time when such fallacy had not been addressed already.
  • Exploring the Artificially Intelligent Mind of Claude 3 Opus
    Another option is to use a VPN, setting your location to the U.S.A., register and set up a payment method such as ApplePay. Many people have reported that they can register in this way and thereafter can access it without using the VPN.Pierre-Normand

    I tried. It fails on the email step.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    They are objecting to the "I,"NotAristotle

    That is Russell's criticism, which Beverley brought up, Corvus never nodded to it.
  • What can I know with 100% certainty?
    I meant to say that the rebuttal to Russell's criticism is not good, not that the criticism itself is not good, if that confused you.
  • Do we live in a dictatorship of values?
    I wasn't aware of such terminology.
  • Do we live in a dictatorship of values?
    The first aqueduct was the Aqua Appia, erected in 312 BCECiceronianus

    third to first century BCECiceronianus

    Hadrian in the second century CECiceronianus

    The Iron Age was a period in human history that started between 1200 B.C. and 600 B.Chttps://www.history.com/topics/pre-history/iron-age
  • The First Concept
    I am aware of teleology. I messed up the quotes. What I meant was:

    a First Cause implies a Final Cause, produced by the operations of an Efficient Cause, working in the medium of a Material Cause. What could we call it? The First Concept? The god-who-shall-not-be-named inquiry?Gnomon

    "What could we call it" refers to the first cause? First causes are typically called prime mover or unmoved mover in English. In Greek, it is/was typically called arhí (ἀρχή), meaning beggining, rule, even empire, and discussions about it predate Aristotle.
  • If only...
    I feel like reality is perfect as it is, even though it is often so horrible. Fantasy is flawed in its very nature, and leaves us wishing for something we will never have.