You didn't answer my question. I asked why Jesus called himself the promised Person, Messiah, cited in the Old Testament, if the Old Testament is wrong. What is the God of the Old Testament? Is He real or is he a fiction made by people?

So if someone killed your wife or kid or whatever, and you wanted to make them suffer. That's just magically not the definition of torture. — Outlander

The act of me causing suffering to the killer is a torture/evil as well.

Apparently, God knows how to create things, and he does not need a medium. Creation could be the universe. And of course, Earth was not created but formed as a result of dust rotating around the sun.

Christ is tortured and executed by men through their free choices. He didn't crucify or scourge himself after all. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Jesus could prevent such a disastrous fate! And no, Jesus' death was not the result of men practicing their free will, but their ignorance! So, God put Himself in the hands of ignorant people to achieve a part of His Divine Plan. Apparently, people could not be held responsible for their actions since they were ignorant. Of course, they wouldn't harm Jesus if they were convinced that Jesus is God! So, who could be held responsible for this situation if not God?

Webster's dictionary defines "torture" as purposeful infliction of pain or suffering for no other purpose than to do so. — Outlander

Torture is defined as the action or practice of inflicting severe pain or suffering on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something. It was common as a mode of punishment in ancient times, such as stoning.

Reason and rationale, or intent in the legal landscape, is as wide as the days are long. Why exercise or eat healthy if we're all just going to die one day? Is that not the definition of torture for someone who holds such a view as paramount?

Me thinks you've fallen prey to the Geuttier argument. In simple terms: stupid things are not evil, they're just stupid. Meaning, while ignorance is the cause of most acts that qualify as such, at least, they ensure they won't be remedied, they're ultimately merely a catalyst to something that would fare quite well without any such factors. — Outlander

I was mentioning that allowing torture/evil is wrong for whatever reason for a God who is Love. Jesus' death was a part of God's Divine Plan. So, I was wondering how God, who is Love, could have such a plan.

Why did Jesus refer to Himself as the Messiah, the promised Person from the Old Testament, then? Do you give a reference to something wrong?

The act of torturing yourself or others is evil. So, God of the New Testament also allowed evil for whatever reasons one can imagine. You call the reason Justice. How could a God who is Love allow Evil for Justice!? Permitting or doing evil is not allowed in Christianity. This is very similar to the God of the Old Testament, who allowed evil for Justice!

How could the OT be wrong if Jesus frequently referred to the Old Testament and identified himself as the Messiah, fulfilling prophecies found within those scriptures?

I have not. I haven't had the time to sift through all the posts in here. — Bob Ross

I was asking @frank why God does not simply forgive the sins of those who realize their mistake and repent. At the end, we are not perfect, so we are vulnerable to sin. Why does God need to torture Himself so He can then forgive our sins? What is the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice?

I was talking about the trinity, which is a way of talking about these things. I represented Jesus as man(mankind). Jesus is the son of God and so is mankind. — Punshhh

I understand that you were talking about the Trinity. I was wondering what Jesus' role is in creation. He must be necessary to complete God; otherwise, a God with two or one persons is functional when it comes to the act of creation.

You accept there is a medium to act in your post here; — Punshhh

Sure, but I can imagine a God who does not need a medium to create. The point at which God exists and the point that God creates must coincide, though.

Spacetime is the medium in our instance. God isn’t spacetime, do you agree? (God is an omni present being who created spacetime). — Punshhh

If the definition of the Holy Spirit is a thing in whom things exist, then we are dealing with spacetime since spacetime is what things exist within.

So already you have two things. Then you have what happens in spacetime, which is referred to as Gods creation, man. Now you have three things. — Punshhh

No, we have one thing, so-called God. You need to show me why the Holy Spirit is required.

God doesn’t “need” a medium to act. Rather, when he acts, he creates the medium through which the act is expressed. — Punshhh

What is your definition of the Holy Spirit? Did God even create the Holy Spirit? What do you mean by "through which the act is expressed"?

I don’t give much weight to an omnipotent God. I see the Omni’s as a human invention, like infinity. I don’t think there are any infinities. — Punshhh

I think that your version of God looks to human invention more. A God who needs a medium to act, exactly like humans!

You didn't answer the question: What is the duty of Jesus in creation?

The trinity is a system of relating principles, or concepts, based on the family unit, of father, mother and son. The idea that if there is a creator(father), then there is what the creator creates(son) and the medium through which it is created(mother). Any act of creation has at least three components.

It works well as correspondences;

God———-creator— —-law of nature—Father
Holy Spirit—meduim——energy————Mother
Man———-creation—-—matter————Son — Punshhh

What is the duty of Son here if it is part of creation? To just die on the cross? Also, what is the definition of an Omnipotent God to you? I am asking since I think an Omnipotent God does not need a medium to create. Even I can create stuff if I am given a medium to act, so there should be a difference between God and us.

Or, if free will exist in heaven and evil doesn't exist, then it's possible that God could create a world where no evil exists and free will also exist. That means that God chose to create a world where evil exist. — night912

I don't equate evil with sin, but I understand what you are trying to say.

Is there free will in heaven? — night912

That is a very good question! If Heaven is the final destination for those who repent, and if these individuals are free, then they could commit sins in Heaven as well!

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the sustainer of material? What is the role of Jesus here? We have the creator, Father, and the Holy Spirit, who is the sustainer. It seems that we need two Persons rather than three Persons. Moreover, the creator can be the sustainer as well. So, one Person is enough to do the job.

Ok. Isn't that spacetime in which all things are? The Holy Spirit is defined as one in whom all things are.

Shouldn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit have different definitions?

So, given this tripartite distinction, what makes a painting a painting? — Moliere

The painting is an artwork; therefore, it requires media, including canvas and the color materials used in the painting. There is also an idea presented in the painting, through the proper placement of colors on the canvas, so-called form.

It's a good set of distinctions, IMO -- but I want to see them in operation. — Moliere

It starts with an idea in the mind of a painter. S/he then decides how to present the idea. This includes the size and form of the canvas, colors s/he is interested in, and how to place the colors on the canvas to present the idea.

Have you read my exchange with @frank?

Correct. People think what they say is true even when the assertion is false. They are just not aware of it.

Assertion doesn't depend on the truth of what is asserted, as we were all taught. — J

Strange. Google defines assertion as: An assertion is a speech act where a speaker claims or declares a proposition to be true.

No, that's just my avatar. :wink: — J

Yes, I know! :wink:

Perhaps people read this exchange and change their minds!

John 3:16 states the doctrine of the Propitiatory Sacrifice. — frank

I asked for a reason why such a thing is right from God. John 3:16 states what I asked: Whether Jesus' Sacrifice was necessary. I also asked what the difference is between the Gods of the Old and New Testaments.

I see the cat on the mat!

Apparently so. — frank

Is there a reason mentioned in the scripture for this torture? That is the God of the very old Testament, Human sacrifice to perhaps please God to do things no one but God can do. What is the difference between the Old and New Testaments?

If God is holy, He could simply forgive our sins instead of this loophole, a part of it dying on the cross, causing torture on Himself, Jesus! That does not make any sense at all. Are you saying that God could not forgive our sins until Jesus' sacrifice was made!? Which kind of Omnipotent God is if He could not simply forgive?

How can ignorance be bliss?

I have no training in art. I think there are three key elements when it comes to artwork, namely, idea, form, and media. The idea is the mental focus of the artist, which is expressed in the artwork. Form is the configuration of media that plays a role in conveying the idea between the artist and the audience. Media is material used for the artwork.

Muse - Uprising



Muse - Hoodoo

Queens Of The Stone Age - No One Knows

I agree with the government that it is time to reduce the voting age to 16. But more importantly, democracy and the role it plays in our nation should be taught in schools. — Punshhh

Yes, and socialism too!

R.E.M. - Losing My Religion

Aerosmith - Dream On

Thanks for the link!

This is entirely out of step with what's going on between us. I am saying that pain is not 'bad' because you're conflating suffering with pain. I am pointing out that problem. — AmadeusD

Yes, pain is not wrong/bad per se. That is discussed in the OP. And I am not conflating suffering with pain. Suffering and pain, however, are related; suffering is defined as the state of undergoing pain.

I agree ‘equality before the law’ is a good political ideal. — Fire Ologist

I agree too.

That’s one whole conversation, about politics and the formation of the relationship between citizens and the state and the law. — Fire Ologist

Correct, given your last point.

I agree equal opportunity would be nice, but practically will never happen. — Fire Ologist

How about not spending money on the military, saving money for the right education, and creating new job opportunities? Could you rationalize making a weapon to kill humans?

We will never be able to create a world where all people have all opportunities equally because of the nature of people and the nature of the world, and the nature of people in the world. — Fire Ologist

So, you think that we have not evolved well enough?

I disagree people are by nature equal to each other. Quite the opposite, I believe all of us are each unique, and unequal. This is biology, psychology and theology. — Fire Ologist

Yes, we are different.

So depending on what you mean by “equality for humans”, and unless you are only talking politics, I likely disagree with you. — Fire Ologist

By equality, I mean that all members of humanity get what they deserve, opportunities, growth, and then delivering the fruit of the growth.

I don’t know what that means. — Fire Ologist

Morality is about realizing what is right to do, good, or evil, given the definition of good and evil in the OP.

You respond to my OP by saying about your pain. It seems that you can handle it, which sounds right to me. I still don't know whether you agree with my OP or not.

Ok, so you are having a sort of pain, muscle pain, for example. Muscle pain is my case. I think we are simple people dealing with suffering and are not narcissists at all.