As I pointed out to you, and you have still not replied, no logic allows you to move from the premise that it is only acceptable to use violence to protect rights, to the following conclusion, that it is almost always wrong to use violence, or that these are "rare cases". — Metaphysician Undercover

That's a strawman version of my view. There are TWO premises that get one to the anarchist conclusion, not one.

First, a person is only entitled to use violence to protect rights (either their own or someone else's). Therefore that is all a government is entitled to do.

Now, if you had read carefully what I said in the beginning of this thread, or what I just said in the sentence above, you'll note that this means the government IS entitled to use violence to protect our rights. You've completely misrepresented my view, then, in supposing that I think the government is not entitled to protect our rights. It absolutely is entitled to do that, for that is something we're entitled to do.

The SECOND claim - that in conjunction with the first gets one to anarchy - is that though a person is entitled to use violence to protect another's rights, they are not entitled to use violence to extract payment for doing so (not from the person whose rights one has decided to protect, anyway).

As I stated very clearly, it is at this point that the government, if it sticks to what it is entitled to do, ceases to be a government at all, and is just a bunch of people touting for business in a free market.

Note, it does not matter how extensive or minimal our rights may be - that's not what my argument turns on - for all it requires is the truth of those two claims above.

In case you think governments do a good job of protecting your rights, look into how well police perform at solving crimes.

It's awful. I live in a first world country. And in my country, the police only 'solve' (and I put this in scare quotes because it reflects arrests, not convictions) 38% of reported crime (and note, they reckon most crimes aren't reported).

I just read an article on American conviction rates for serious crimes involving violence...the author concludes that approx. 2% result in conviction. 2% of the worst crimes are properly solved and result in the punishment of their perpetrator.

Feeling safe now?

The police are terrible - terrible - at their job. And of course they will be - why wouldn't they be? There's no competition.

No, I am ignoring those whose views seem to me to be indefensible. Like I say, life's too short to argue with people who a) can't recognize an argument and b) assert claims that enjoy no support from reason (and thus have no probative value whatever). But I am not preventing others from engaging with those people if they so wish, I just think that it's pointless for me to do so, given all they're doing is doubling-down on implausible claims. That's simply not interesting. What's interesting - intellectually - is showing how superficially implausible views are entailed by highly plausible claims.

This topic, note, is not about how best to argue and with whom. It is about the defensibility of anarchy. I have argued - and I really have made a case, whether you like it or not - that all governments are unjust.
My case, incidentally, is not original. It is a case made recently by professional philosopher Michael Huemer. So, if you think I have made no case, then you think that the argument of a well-respected professional philosopher is not, in fact, a case at all, but just a series of arbitrary assertions. How likely is that to be true? That doesn't mean the argument is sound, of course, but it does underline the absurdity of supposing it to be no case at all. It is a case. And it's a strong one.

It is clear to reason that it is unjust for individuals to use violence or the threat of violence against others apart from in rare cases where this is needed to protect a person's rights. And it is equally clear to reason that if a person decides to protect another person's rights, they are not entitled then to bill that person for having done so and extract payment with menaces. From those claims - claims that seem intuitively clear to the reason of most and that it would be intuitively highly costly to reject - anarchy follows.

In a democratic society they can be removed. — Outlander

In an anarchy there's no one there to be removed! Elections are a wholly inadequate solution to a problem that governments create: concentration of power.

Elections do no moral work when they have not been agreed to by all of those involved. For example, if you and your friends vote to put me in prison, doesn't magically justify you putting me in prison. Why? Because I didn't agree to the vote.

I've made my position very clear and argued for my view. A view that entails that the Jews who were exterminated by the Nazis did not have their rights violated is obviously false - it is refuted by the absurdity of that implication - and someone who simply doubles-down on that implication isn't worth arguing with. Again, I wouldn't discuss the merits of an interesting sum with someone who it transpired is convinced that 1 + 1 = a banana.

You keep saying things to me. Manners require that I respond.

Saying that your opponent is obviously wrong and leaving it at that is a conversation-ender. — SophistiCat

Yes, that was my goal. I don't wish to have a conversation with someone who thinks the Nazis didn't violate the rights of those whom they exterminated, or who can't see that this is what the view that rights are created by society implies. I wouldn't discuss mathematics with someone who thought 2 + 3 = 95 or 'an elephant', for what would be the point in that?

Thanks. I agree that the vulnerable would still be vulnerable under an anarchy, but I think they'd be better off overall. For the weak are weaker still under a government, as they are not allowed to protect their own interests in the way they see fit but must instead allow the government to do so on their behalf (if it sees fit, of course - there's nothing in the idea of a government that ensures those in power will care about promoting the interests of the weakest...indeed, this is unlikely given that the priority of those who seek out power is going to be to keep power, not promote anyone else's interests).

But whatever the consequences, we can, I think, see that a government - even one set up by those who think they know best how to look after the weakest - is unjust. For if all government employees ceased to be paid tomorrow, would they be obliged to continue doing their jobs? And obliged to such an extent that the rest of us could force them to do so? I think the answer to that is a clear no. And that shows, I think, that the obligation to look out for the weakest (which I do not deny we have), is not such as to permit others to use force to make us fulfil it. And so therefore the government is not allowed to use force either

The poorest and most vulnerable are not safer under governments. Rather than depending on the generosity and decency of those around them, they depend on the generosity and decency of those in power. Now given that those in power are bad people - for good people do not seek it out - the vulnerable come to depend on the good will of bad people. That's not at all in their best interests.

Takethe police. They're rubbish. Everywhere they are rubbish. They're incredibly ineffective at solving crimes. And why wouldn't they be? There's no competition. How's that good? The most vulnerable are worse off for there being a government monopolized police force, not better off. A wholly unregulated private sector would provide much better policing than the state ever would. Or at least, I can see no good argument for thinking otherwise.

The problem here is the complete omission of those who would not only defy your basic rights, but use -- not only threat of force -- but force, willfully and in many cases gleefully. Often times for the sheer joy of it absent of anything to gain or rectify ie. "for fun". This is the dynamic of the world we live in. So, your options are a structured society where disputes can be solved in a court of law and grievances can be made known socially enacting real social change, or you can have the same threats of force and use of force, with no accountability or avenue for recourse on your part whatsoever. Any sort of attempt to reframe this unchangeable dynamic is simply dishonest. — Outlander

I'm afraid I don't follow your point. Are you just observing that there are people who enjoy violating the rights of others? I don't deny this. I am pointing out that those in power are among them!

What governments do is allow some of those who enjoy violating the rights of others the opportunity to do so on an industrial scale.

I don't follow your argument. — Metaphysician Undercover

You're just confusing violating someone's rights with them not having any. Look, if you think the Jews had no moral rights under the Nazis then it follows that the Nazis did nothing wrong in exterminating them. I can't argue with someone who thinks that way.

I am arguing that all governments are unjust. That's a moral claim. I am not claiming that governments don't exist or won't emerge over time.
If I argue that killing someone is wrong, it is no reply to point out that people will kill people.

I explicitly addressed concerns about consequences in my opening post!

As for 'proving' things - I don't have to 'prove' anything. That's a ludicrous standard. In my opening post I made an 'case' for anarchism - I showed how it is implied by some moral claims that are not seriously in dispute. What you need to do is show that my conclusion is not implied by those premises, or that those premises are false.

My case for anarchy is based on moral evidence. The issue is much simpler than people think. It is almost always wrong to use violence or the threat of it against another person. No one - no one worth arguing with, anyway - seriously disputes that. Yes, it can be justified under some circumstances - when one is in immediate danger or someone else is - but not otherwise. (There's of course room for a bit of debate over when one can legitimately use violence against another, but not much....every reaonable person is going to agree that the boundaries are pretty tight, even if there's no consensus on precisely where they lie).

It is also obvious that having more power than someone else doesn't make one more entitled to use violence against another. I am much stronger than Susan - does that mean I can use violence against her? No, obviously not. Might does not make right.

From those simple and uncontroversial moral axioms, we can derive the verdict that no one in power is entitled to use their power - their ability to use violence and the threat of it - against others in ways that we ourselves would not be entitled to.

And in one fell swoop, that reveals the injustice of the vast bulk of what the government does.

But that leaves those exceptions - the cases where we are entitled to use violence against another, such as self-defence or the defence of another's life. If someone is attacking you, I am entitled to defend you against that attack, with violence if necessary. So, aren't those in power entitled to do the same?

Yes, of course, for that is just an application of the same basic 'might does not make right' principle. If I am entitled to protect you from attack, then so too is someone else.

The problem is that though I am entitled to protect you from attack, I am not entitled subsequently extract some payment from you for having done so and use violence against you if you fail to pay. And I am certainly not morally permitted to announce that I will defend you from attacks (whether you wish me to or not) and then insist you start paying me for that service (and threaten you with violence if you do not pay me).

I take that to be obvious. Yet that is what the government does. So, if we imagine - for the sake of illustration - that government to be a person, then it is behaving immorally, for though some of what it undertakes to do it is perfectly entitled to do - as is any person - its insistence that we pay for its services or face violent consequences is clearly unjust.

And now we have arrived at anarchy. Nothing the government does is just. For if the government sticks only to interfering in our lives in ways that we would be entitled to interfere with each other, and sticks as well to inviting payment for such justified interference rather than extracting it with menaces, then it ceases to be a government at all and is just a bunch of individuals touting for business.

I think conseqentialism is false (consequences are clearly not the only things that matter morally speaking). But even if it is true, it's not at all clear to me that anarchism has the worst consequential profile.

When most people entertain the idea of anarchy they think of the first weeks. But as a consequentialist you must think of the longer-term consequences.

Governments are terrible at everything they do (apart from waging wars - they're extremely good at doing that).

Imagine shoes were government issued. Everyone needs shoes....so it's too important to let individuals sort the matter out for themselves....no, some people who like being in charge and spending other pepole's money on things to make themselves feel good need to take charge of shoe production.

What would shoes be like? Would there be lots of choice of cheap shoes? Er, no. The government would produce shoes very inefficiently (contracts given to friends, no free market to drive down costs or improve the product). And the shoes would be terrible.

That's going to be the same for everything else. It's going to be the same for security and justice systems, for example. You think the police do a good job anywhere? I don't. Why would they?

So, as a consequentialist I think you need radically to rethink what things would be like with anarchy.

Long term, virtually everyone would be better off under an anarchy. Apart from criminals and power-hungry war mongers.

If you’re only going to argue with people who agree with you, you probably don’t belong on the forum. — T Clark

Willful misunderstanding. Did I say I can't argue with people I disagree with? No. I said I can't argue with someone who thinks the Nazis didn't violate the rights of the Jews they exterminated. Why? Because that person isn't worth arguing with.

I also can't be bothered arguing with people like you, who misrepresent positions. Life's too short.

I have justified my belief. Perhaps you missed it. Here it is again: if governments determine what rights people have then the Jews had no rights under the Nazis (and thus in exterminating millions of Jews, the Nazis violated no one's rights, certianly not the Jews they exterminated).
The Nazis violated the rights of the millions of Jews they exterminated
Therefore, governments do not determine what rights people have.

That is a case. It is an argument and its conclusion follows from its premises and its premises are obviously true.

When it comes to making a case what one must do is appeal to premises that have some degree of self-evidence to them, otherwise one is merely reporting one's own views and not giving others any reason to think your views may be true.

I think someone who just blankly states that governments confer rights on people is the person who is making no case and is just expressing a patently false view of theirs.

Governments can and regularly do - and if I am right, are doing so all the time by just existing - violate people's rights.

Insofar as one can justify a government, one needs to show how the existence of a government respects - or does not disrespect, if that is different - people's rights.

Note, I am talking about moral rights here, not legal ones.

I am making the point that anarchy is just and all governments are unjust. I don't think that's a trivial point. That seems highly significant, if true.

I do not understand your question. My defence of anarchism is not an expression of personal preference. I would prefer to live in a society in which everyone is made to do serve my every need. But that would not be a morally just set-up.

Similarly, there are many decisions I have made that, looking back, were rather silly and didn't maximally benefit me. I could now be much richer and healthier if I hadn't made them, and so would prefer that someone had overridden my freedom of choice on those occasions. But that too would be unjust.

In arguing that anarchism is the only form of just government (or, which is the same thing, arguing that no government is a just government), I am not describing what I think will maximally benefit me or you or anyone else, or expressing any desire of mine.

No, they did have rights and those rights were not respected. I am not sure I can argue with someone who thinks a person has a right if and only if the government of any community of which they are a member says they do. That view is so plainly false to me that I am at a loss to know how to argue with someone who is willing to embrace its implications.

1. There is no such thing as entitlement, the universe does not have an inherent karmic system. No one is entitled to anything.
2. The concept of "rights" only makes sense in the context of a governing body which can establish and protect those rights against negative actors. Otherwise its simply a value you hold, which has no bearing on anyone else but yourself. — Ourora Aureis

Those seem like indefensible claims.

First, to think people are entitled to things is not equivalent to thinking the universe operates karmically. A person can be entitled to something and never receive it.

Second, the claim that people are not entitled to anything is obviously false.

As for the concept of a right, what you say there is again just plainly false. By your logic, the Nazis did not violate the rights of Jews, but instead made it the case that they had none. And thus by your logic the Nazis - and indeed, any and all governments that are in power - are incapable of violating the rights of those whom they govern, as they are the arbiters of rights.

These are indefensible views.

The only possibilities in philosophy seem to be reductionism or emergentism. — Ludwig V

I don't think that's right, though that may accurately characterize the positions most (?) contemporary philosophers hold about the matter.

But another option - I think the one most of the great philosophers of the past held - is that our minds are distinct entities from our biological bodies. A dead human is still a human animal, it's just not got a mind anymore - the person has left the building.

Yes, though I don't think you took it anywhere at all.

and again illustrated by the post following

It's the person associated with the human animal who is doing the thinking.
— Clearbury
Not necessarily. — noAxioms

That's beside the point. The point is that this claim 'it is the person asociated with the human animal who is doing the thinking' is not question begging, whereas 'it is thet human animal that is doing the thinking' is.

Note, I am not arguing for or agaist the thesis that it is the human animal that is doing the thinking. I am pointing out that Olson's argument is question begging. Question begging arguments can still be sound.

magine there is a weightless box into which a 90 kg person has been placed.
— Clearbury
OK, to apply that directly to the OP:

(P1) Presently resting on the floor is a box.
(P2) The box masses 90kg
(P3) You are the contents of the box.
(C) Therefore, the box is you.

That doesn't seem to be begging anywhere, yet the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, — noAxioms

That is not an accurate rendering of my implied argument. I mentioned the ambiguity of the word 'is', yet you've removed that very word from the crucial premise.

The argument would go as follows:

1. The only think on the floor is a box that is 90kg
2. I am on the floor and I am 90kg
3. Therefore, I am the box

If premise 1 is interpreted one way - interpreted as meaning "the only thing on the floor is a box that may or may not contain something and that including whatever it may contain weighs 90kg" - the argument is invalid. For it does not then follow from my being on the floor and weighing 90kg that I am the box, for I may instead be something that is in the box (and is thereby responsible for its weight).

If premise 2 is interpreted much more literally - as meaning that a box alone - a box without any contents - is the only thing on the floor and weighs 90kg, then the conclusion does follow, but is clearly false.

I explained why 'worked' is question begging. You either mean by 'worked' - achieves justice - in which case by hypothesis it does work, or you have some other goal in mind, in which case you're simply not addressing my case and your point is irrelevant.

But I am not arguing that his argument is invalid, but that its second premise (and its third) has to be interpreted in a way that makes it question begging.

premise 2 is ambiguous, for it could be interpreted to mean (as it does in 'the box is 90kgs') that the human animal sitting in the chair has associated with it something that is thinking). And then 3 could be similarly interpreted to mean 'the thing that is thinking is you'. So interpreted, the conclusion does not follow.

So that cannot be the meaning that Olson has in mind. Instead we must interpret 2 as simply asserting taht the human animal is itself doing the thinking. That's question begging for that's precisely what's at issue.

So, if we interpret the relevant premises in a non-question begging way, the argument is indeed invalid. But if we interpret the relevant premises in a way that preserves the argument's validity, then the premises become question begging.

There's no dispute that we think. And there's no dispute that our bodies are human animals. The dispute is over whether the thing doing the thinking is the human animal or something merely associated with it. That dispute cannot be resolved to everyone's satisfaction by fiat.

I think Wittgenstein is quite right.

Psychologists (those who stay in their lane, anyway - and a lot of them don't) study human behaviour.

Philosophers don't.

For example, psychological egoism is a psychological thesis (a very implausible one). It states that all humans are motivated purely by self-interest.

Ethical egoism, by contrast, is a philosophical thesis (also very implausible). It states that we ought to be motivated by self-interest.

They have nothing to do with one another.

I think premise 2 is false and question begging.

It's the person associated with the human animal who is doing the thinking. That isn't question begging because that leaves open the possibility that the human animal and the person are one and the same. However, if the 'is' in premise 2 is taken to be the 'is' of identity 9and the argument's validity depends on this) then it's question begging, as it takes for granted that the person who is doing the thinking and is associated with that human body is one and the same as that human body. But that's precisely what those who think we are not human animals (merely associated with them) deny.

Imagine there is a weightless box into which a 90 kg person has been placed. We could now say ' the box is 90 kg'. I am the 90kg person in the box. Does it follow that I am the box? No, for in saying 'the box is 90 kg' we are not committing ourselves to the claim that the box itself weighs 90kg, but leaving open the possibility that it is something inside of it that is responsible for the weight. I think exactly the same applies to 'the human animal is thinking'. The 'is' in that sentence should not be read as the 'is' of identity. It's functioning in the same way as it is in 'the box is 90kg'.

Will it be by organized thugs, or a (transparent) democratic majority where all have a say? — jorndoe

Those are not opposites. You have thugs in charge so long as people think there need to be people in charge. You think in a democracy you get decent, good people in charge?!? You get thugs. Sophisticated thugs. You get in charge those who want to be. Good people don't want to be in charge.

You think governments aren't mafias? They're the most successful mafia in any given region.

Governments are monopolies. Do you think monopolies are a good idea?

So. Maybe I'm wrong. Tell me how you would make it work out the way you want it to. — T Clark

What do you mean by 'work' though? I am arguing that governments are 'unjust' (not that they don't work - whether they 'work' or not depends on what goals they're supposed to be achieving....if they're supposed to be creating a just world, then they don't work at all and it is question begging to say otherwise....if you conceive of them as having some other purpose, then maybe they work, maybe they don't...but it's irrelevant to the topic).

Incidentally, you could minimize deaths by means of a brave new world-style government that didn't respect any individual's freedom whatsoever. But it wouldn't be just.

No one in charge escapes the moral responsibilities of an individual to other individuals. The responsibility of us as individuals is not to prevent one another dying. For example, if I plan on engaging in a dangerous hobby, you are not entitled to stop me. That doesn't magically stop applying if you acquire the power to stop me. And that's the point. Sometimes it is right to stop someone from dying, sometimes not. When it is right to stop someone dying, then you're entitled to do that. But you're not entitled to bill the person whom you prevented from dying.

So Sarah is holding onto the edge of the cliff and unless someone saves her she''ll fall to her death. You're close at hand and can easily help her. You're obliged to do that. And I think Sarah has a right to your assistance. But after helping her, you can't then demand payment for your time and effort with menaces.

Nothing alters if you're in government. The president or prime minister would also be obliged to help Sarah and not demand payment with menaces afterwards. Yet presidents don't do this - they make others help Sarah and then they bill Sarah and others for doing so and extract the payment with menaces. That is not just. We would recognize this on a small scale. Nothing changes if the scale increases.

Putting aside moral factors for a minute, do you believe it is possible for groups of humans to effectively and humanely organize themselves without coercive rules assuming no change in human nature, whatever that means? Answer that question in the context of modern society in a world of 8 billion people. Also describe how such a society could be established in an ideal situation where you can specify starting conditions, i.e. go back 200,000 (or 2 million) years? If you can't give a positive answer to those questions, your moral complaints are meaningless. — T Clark

I don't see how you're addressing the argument I presented. I am defending anarchy. Anarchy does not involve anyone 'organizing' us. It's the opposite of that.

If your point is that without some bosses there will be mayhem, then I explicitly addressed this point. I pointed out that, whether true or not, it misses my point, which is about what's just, not about what would minimize mayhem.

I don't see your point. Those in charge are people. And might does not make right. Therefore, what it is just for those in charge to do can be determined by considering what it would be just for individuals to do to one another.

You're sure about that? We're all constantly changing, day by day, moment by moment. There is continuity, but also change. Many of the cells in your body are renewed regularly. That is one of the fascinating things about the nature of identity. — Wayfarer

Yes. As is everyone else. Do you think you die when you go to sleep?

That's why I said 'likely'.

Of course I can forgive a person for being stupid (and in many cases there is nothing to forgive as it may not be the person's fault). But what's that got to do with the topic of the thread?

I've read over 5000 accounts of NDEs, and what you'll find is that many people who have an NDE don't want to come back to this life, but they're told they must return because their objectives for coming here aren't complete. — Sam26

I acknowledge that this would explain why they don't commit suicide.

Do you think I have mischaracterized the DKE? Or are you implying that I am a demonstration of the DKE? (The latter would be somewhat question begging).

I don't know why you would say supposedly corroborate, the data on this is overwhelming — Sam26

Because it hasn't been gathered in a scientific setting. We don't know that things were not mentioned to the patient about the operation afterwards. It's all too flimsy. And that's exactly how we would treat such testimonial evidence in other contexts.

The person who is reporting these experiences almost died. That's not a normal state. The idea that a person's sensory faculties would be operating more reliably under those circumstances rather than less is prima facie absurd. That's like thinking that getting drunk improves one's ability to perceive the world. How would we treat a drunk's testimony? With the greatest of caution. That is how it is reasonable to treat the testimony of those whose brains have been starved of oxygen. Whatever experiences they had when their brains were in that kind of state cannot reasonably be accorded any great probative value.

Note too, that the testimony is 'about' those experiences. If I say that I saw a giant pink bunny while on a hallucinogen, then trusting my testimony does not involve trusting that there was actually a giant pink bunny in the room with me, but trusting that that was how things appeared to me. So, trusting the testimony of those who have had NDEs does not involve according their experiences probative value, rather it involves accepting that things seemed to them as they report.

Again, there is no double standard here. That's exactly how we'd treat the testimonial evidence of someone who was on drugs at the time they had the experiences, or was blind drunk at the time. These are people whose brains were starved of oxygen at the time it seemed to them they were having the experiences in question. So why should their testimonial evidence be treated any differently from the testimonial evidence of someone who was on drugs at the time of their experiences? We can trust that things appeared to them as they say, but we cannot reasonably trust that this is good evidence that this is how things actually were.

I do accept that this may not apply to the experiencer themselves - I accept that those who have actually had NDEs may be reasonable in believing their experiences to be accurate, but I don't think outsiders, such as myself, are being unreasonable in being skeptical about their accuracy (not skeptical that this is how things seemed to the person in question, but skeptical about the veridicality of the experiences being described).

It's not a respectable source. But anyway, the main point is that the DKE is accurately characterized as 'the stupider a person is, the less likely they are to realize how stupid they are'

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the dominant view. The mind as I use it is, for all practical purposes, is synonymous with consciousness. — Sam26

So when I am unconscious I disappear? Consciousness is a state. It's not a thing. It's a state. Water is wet (normally). Wetness is a state. it's not a thing. 'Water is wet' doesn't mean 'water and wetness are the same'. It's the 'is' of predication. Water 'has' wetness. Minds 'have' consciousness. My mind is conscious right now - that doesn't mean it 'is' consciousness. It 'has' consciousness. That's why they're called 'states of consciousness'. They're states, not objects.

When I go to sleep I - the mind - become unconscious. I don't vanish. A new person does not emerge in me every morning. Sleep is not death. I can't escape yesterday's me's responsibilities and debts just by going to sleep. Why? Because I am the same person - the same mind. I was conscious yesterday and I am conscious today, but there was a time in between when I wasn't. there was a break in consciousness, but not a break in me. Unconscious me is not just a lump of meat. It isn't ok to destroy sleeping me. If you destroy sleeping me you killed me - me - rather than simply destroyed the potential venue for a new person.

Anyway, this is just a terminological issue: minds are bearers of conscious states. Consciousness is a state, not an object. Reality doesn't care what labels we put on things, however. So it really doesn't matter, I mention it only because it can cause confusion to conflate a state of an object with an object, and because - ironically - the tendency to conflate consciousness with minds is symptomatic of the very naturalism that precludes the possibility of life after death.

I don't think that follows. We have a natural inclination to keep on living, so this could get in the way of suicide. — Relativist

We have a natural inclination not to want to eat something that looks unappetizing. But if we found out that it actually tastes delicious, then we'd go back and eat some more. We can and regularly do overcome natural inclinations.

The point about religious convictions doesn't apply, as the point is that those who have had NDEs are not more likely to commit suicide than those who don't. And it would be peculiar indeed to suppose that the only NDEs that count as evidence are those had by those with religious convictions.