@tim wood

Ok,let me elucidate this way. You say you find Hegel impenetrable.

How have you come to this conclusion?

I'm not criticising Kant or Hegel's ideas, or saying don't wrestle with their general critiques.

In fact some of Hegel's phenomenology and political analysis is fab. Same with Kant on human perception and subjective idealism.

But both could have explained their ideas far clearer and with more brevity.

They are bad writers because they don't summarise their ideas with clarity,but waffle on for pages and pages.

B&N still stocks because of academic tradition, because of the gold within the dross and the fact that many love overblown jargon laden texts and waffle.

@Bob Ross

You see bob, it's easy to tell you don't have much insight into Muslim countries or Muslim migrants.

Most Muslim countries have secular type laws, maybe mixed in with a few personal islamic marriage laws or something.
You should know this if your judging middle eastern type countries.
It's really only a few countries like iran &Saudi who have more shariah laws, but still on the ground a lot of Iranians and Saudis don't believe in shariah law. Neither do I. Shariah law is political theology.

You don't realise how many Muslims on the ground believe in peace and economics. Your ideology and disinformation blinds you to this and makes you utter uncivilised bigotry, which is truly ironic!

@bert1

Ah,that's a really good point with regard to chatGPT.
My answer to that is, as I mentioned before, as well as clear it must have some power and entertainment in it. Not dull or cold.
As Nietzsche said; I only like this who write in blood!
Cold nonsense is psychopathic! As befits a programmed machine!

@bert1

I like a lot of Humes writings but he gets a little weird and dogmatic at times.

Philosophers definitely vary in style

Do you think there is any psychological reason for an overblown style?

@ssu
I feel we are just restating our views on this, and we do agree on some matters.

To pivot a little, I would say you are underestimating the power of European/American banking and it's allies.
America's debt is just a way of fleecing the American labour and business sectors to finance it's bankers and elites.
The banking system includes non western allies,but it's all capitalist hegemony,enforced by violence.
Not a western only thing,but lead by the west,the worlds biggest arms dealers and bankers. Without doubt.

@bert1

I remember reading one of bishop Berkleys Q&A type platonic style dialogues and that was very clear.
But he was using "uncertainty" and "speculation" as a rhethorical way to explain his thinking. As long as it's clear that's fine.

Oscar Wilde wrote some essays like platonic dialogues,and those are brilliant &clear

I have read 180, and I agree that he's unclear. But a lot of that is his jargon laden style and his weird grammatically abbreviated sentences.

I do love the conversational style of writing.

But weird abbreviations,jargon or long windedness is a sin against communication!

@I like sushi
Only the brave my sensitive friend!

@javi2541997

I have followed TPF as a non member for years, so yours is pretty patronising, and shows lack of comprehension/insight.

People pay lip service to critiqueing western values but the conclusion is always they are superior and the arbiter of other values.

There is no denying this, look at the title,
responses and OP of this thread for god's sake!

@I like sushi

Your just repeating your posts.

Communication is timeless.
Subjectivity is Truth. (Well,for some!) To quote Kieerkegard.

Your posts are proof that academic type philosophers overcomplicate matters. with uneccessary historical details or caveats that sometimes don't add anything but unclarity and long winded diversions. And that is exactly what my thread is about.

@I like sushi
Just read this thread,and the supposed superiority of western "values".

Western values include war,economic oppression,imperialism and broken families.

@ssu

And that is quite a mixed lot. So yes, there is the arms dealer to be found. And the country willing to play the "Great game". But as your list shows, those aren't just Western powers.

It's not just western powers,but it's dominated by western finance and military force.
The US has military bases all round the world.

And to be frank,the military industrial complex comprises the evil cooperation of west and east to economically oppress and suppress people all round the world.

The problem is militant capitalism,led by Europe and it's British colony,the US.

@ssu

I do agree,we shouldn't absolve non western nations for instigating conflicts or minimise their role in economic thuggery.

Chomsky et al are just goofballs who hide the different actors involved.

But if we look at the finance required for these types of actions,then the UK,the US,Russia,china,Saudi arabia,Iran etc always have a hand in weapons sales and political support.

I'm very critical of the oil rich states as well as the west.

With regard to your comment about Cecil Rhodes,well the west still has world banking,which is like a maxim gun.

@javi2541997

Philosophy does confront religion,but can also back it up. There are religious philosophers.

I'm very critical of many thelogians,because of their political bigotry.

I can take criticisms of aspects of religious thought,but liberalism is itself a dominant religious like narrative,and displays intolerance towards any criticism of LGBTQ or western values.

Are western values beyond criticism?
And why is liberalism the arbiter of truth?

@T clark

I've seen plenty of secular bigotry and xenephobia here.

@I like sushi

It would make more sense to compare Kant with Schopenhauer and Hegel with Nietzsche (in terms of writing style).

Are you serious?? In terms of writing style schop and Nietzsche both write similarly aphoristically and with a lot of polemic.

As for the intended audience or how old the writing,it matters not if it can be read in English.

Communication is timeless.

@Janus. A typo,thats also a fabulous truthful pun,so kept in.
I'm English born,Indian,Pakistani,Zimbabwean,Iranian heritage.

@fdrake.
For sure it's a great topic.
Might start a new thread tommorows.

It is left-leaning to simply assume that something is homophobic, transphobic, or racist, which is precisely what you are doing in failing to address the arguments at hand. The left is exceedingly accustomed to using these labels to shut down speech and debate.

I mean this is the reality,liberals are soo quick to stereotype and label any dissent as phobic of their pet theories. And thus a crime and thus shut down. Totally totalitarian.

@Christoffer @Leontiskos

@ssu
I'm not American.

I do agree with you in saying that we shouldn't ignore domestic policies of colonised countries,or use western imperialism as a cop out for the corruption of eastern governments.

I 100% agree that colonised countries took western money and used this to oppress their own lower and muddle classes,and enrich themselves.They bear responsibility for that.

When I talk about the ongoing imperialism I said Europe AND the US,with the US and UK being the prime movers of weaponry and economic oppression. And this imperialism is only achieved with the tacit approval of the ruling class of the imperialised country.

Chomsky and merscheimer are academics/experts pimping off handringing and criticising US policy without the full world picture.

But my bottom line is the west is still the main instigator and supplier of weapons and money for conflict and world economic trade conflict.
You can't dispute that.
And just for full clarity,I regard Russia as European as well.

@Gnomon
PS___ I did try to read Foucault years ago. But his run-on sentences, some a hundred words long, left me wondering "what . . . . ?".

Exactly! But foucault ideas about power narratives in politics are extremely good. So I think the commentaries and summaries on his ideas are better than his actual writing!

But I appreciate your straightforwardness in saying you don't feel you can comment.

Addendum, Plato can be really clear and poetic,and then really abstract in some dialogues! And I feel that is deliberate.

@Banno

Yes the great "liberal " weapon when confronted withTruth,run and censor!

@Tom Storm
Baroque prose is not itself ground for supposing that a writer does not have great ideas. Kant and Hegel are both great for drawing attention to several great phenomenonological insights.

Foucault has brilliant insights in power discourse,but his writing is boring and factually wrong at times.

I don't seperate objective from subjective,I'm eastern!!! My half joke!

@Banno
Another anti religious liberal displays his exenophobia and anxiety to stereotype when under pressure.

@Wayfarer
Your just backtracking,obfuscatingand taking no responsibility for your mistakes and ignorance.

It's obvious you know very little about Muslims,Islam or realities on the ground.
Yours is media hogwash which appeases your western superiority narrative.

@Tom Storm
Hume,schop and bishop Berkley I found as very clear writers. ( Ditto Orwell!)

I do get that some might not get much from Nietzsche because of his exaggeration and polemical style,which may be off putting. But he is concise and reasonably clear,especially his works from 1886 to 1888. I always found him very worthwhile because of his psychology of religion and politics.

I agree with Foucault about Derrida,but foucault also writes badly,Ditto Husserl. But all 3 have great insights.

The insight needed is ones Intuition. I persevered with some of the waffle show off types by reading their main ideas and ignoring their justifications and long winded explanations.

I think the phrase obscurantist terrorism is indeed true,like politicians or priests trying to appear profound. And because of this I exercise my discretion.One has to believe in oneself! It's often the writer not the reader who is at fault. We don't need to defer because of reputation.

@Wayfarer
Wow! So now you interpret my reaction as violent!

This is exactly the kind of racist islamaphobic stereotype I was talking about.

Man,the sweet innocent liberal with "superior values" surely loves to resort to totally imaginary stereotypes when pushed.
Your attitude is the problem mate. You don't like Muslims like me telling you how we feel. It offends your "superior" sentiments and imperial worldview.

@Banno
I haven't seen a trusted media link.

But let's say it's true. How is that representative of Muslims at large? Or migrants? Xenophobia much.

@Wayfarer
Well,I'm trying to be charitable,and I find it discriminatory,especially from a thinking bloke like yourself.

And just to clarify,what do you mean by tolerance and inclusivity have gone to far?

From whose perspective? Secular liberals? So since when are they the arbiters of tolerance and truth?

@Wayfarer
And I keep saying no more tension than that between western conservatives and liberals.

So why use one example to highlight this mythical media boosted tension? And then obfuscate by saying "not most Muslims".

So what's the problem with religious people not wanting to be forced to display a pride flag?
Aren't conservatives Christians of the same mindset?

@Wayfarer
I edited my previous post,so have a Luke.

Most migrants are economic type migrants,who regard their Islam as a personal religion, separate from a countries secular law. Most "Muslim countries" have secular law.

The only tension is the same as between US liberals and conservatives,so why single out migrant Muslims? Ask yourself your motivation for that and what info leads you to believe migrants are extreme in their interpretation of Islam?
It's not tough for most migrants religionwise. No more than for an orthodox christian.Whats tough sometimes is the stereotyped clichéd hackneyed information that liberals like yourself say. Just like your post. Implying we are inferior or backwards.

@Wayfarer
Why are you asking me for enlightenment when you already presumptously claimed to know about Islam and what migrants face?

]There can be a troubling contradiction in extending the value of liberal tolerance to those who don't necessarily support or understand the liberal attitudes that fostered it.

Case in point is the difficulties faced by Islamic migrants and refugees coming to Western cultures. Islam doesn't recognise the separation of church and state, and in theory at least, can only support Shariah law. At the same time, refugee support groups and activists do all they can to support Islamic refugees, even despite this tension. But this can have difficult consequences when Islamic conservatism conflicts with Western libertarianism. The town of Hamtramck, Michigan, made headlines in 2023 for being the first US city with a majority Muslim council. Great joy amongst supporters of cultural diversity. But one of the first things they did was to ban displays of LGBT flags on public property on the grounds that homosexuality is forbidden in Islamic law. (I wonder how Green Left activists who are strident in defense of both refugee and LGBT rights manage to reconcile this conflict.)

So do American conservatives and American Christians also have problems with the "liberal enlightened tradition"? Or just Muslims?

@Leontiskos
I hear you,but one has to read the room.

Although I do understand just going out all guns blazing!

It's a sign of the late times that natural morality and eternal values are oppressed in western "progressive nations",so the religious are unjustly impeded in their freedom of speech.

But only the brave is what I would say!

And people deep down know that certain moral principles are eternal,this is why they have to obfuscate and oppress legit religious views.

@Leontiskis.
I studied some orthodox Christian doctrines. And as compared to catholic or more mainstream Christianity,I was quite impressed with the orthodox doctrine of "man becoming divine". Theotokis I think.

I also appreciate the more traditional approach to morality of Russian orthodox Christianity,and the mystical approach.

Dostoevsky was a part of my education on the Russian orthodox church and it's doctrines.

@T clark Lao Tszu is poetry and mythmaking.

Aristotle is very analytical and abstract. But he has his moments.

Plato utilised poetry,myth making,story telling and abstract thought. He is religious.

I thought Epicurus was just fragments but I could be wrong?

@Leontiskos. I think the inflammatory style can sometimes be distasteful.

But if he means extreme identity politics and the exportation of LGBTQ,then as you alluded to,that is a legit US position. Also something I fully endorse with caveats and nuances.

@Leontiskos. What is "georgefloydism"?
Many thanks.

It is topic that ought to be discussed, but those kinds of arguments will just get someone banned in the end. But I would give Bob the chance to explain himself.

I believe in free speech,so Bobby is free to explain and give his opinions. They are very instructive to me.

The one civilisation I was referring to that enslaved and hegemonised was Europe,and it's rampant colonialism,with the US also.

2010 we had the orchestrated "Arab spring"interventions,we have genocide in Palestine currently. The US engineered Ukraine conflict. And the less talked about western backed conflicts currently in Africa.

And one of the biggest imperialist projects still going is the IMF loans with tremendous debt and political strings attached.

The book "confessions of an economic hitman" shows how some of this economic thuggery is achieved and maintained.

And just to clarify. I don't mean long winded philosophers can't have great ideas. I mean Husserl has truly great ideas,but writes like a doofus.

it's all "apologetics" for one worldview or another. :smile:

@Gnomon. And this is the point I want to explore. Is there a relation between writing style and worldview/Apologetics?

To elucidate,,,,,politicians when they don't believe what they are saying, overtalk,obfuscate and divert from obvious truths. Is anybody brave enough to say this of Hegel and Kant etc al???

Bob Ross
Wow.

So what society is OK with their daughters being raped? Tell me what society in the World is where parents are OK with that? Seems that you have quite the obscure ideas about the morals of "inferior people" or "inferior nations".

Sorry Bob, but now perhaps your ideas of other people are coming out...

@ssu. I said as much earlier in the thread.
These "ideas" are really deliberate propaganda against non Europeans and especially Muslims.
There is no society at large that has these ideas that @Bob Ross is claiming.

But I know one "civilisation" that has plundered and enslaved mankind economically by military force. And it ain't the east.
So really,the oppressor is the imperialist colonial west. And that is historically irrefutable over the last 110 years.