So what's the problem with religious people not wanting to be forced to display a pride flag?
Aren't conservatives Christians of the same mindset? — Swanty

Sure! 100%. I really do understand the issues that conservatives have with many aspects of modern culture and society. One of the questions in the OP is whether the principles of tolerance and inclusiveness have gone 'too far'. I put case that up as an example of those kinds of tensions. My post was not at all intended as discriminatory against Muslims.

So what's the problem with religious people not wanting to be forced to display a pride flag? — Swanty

That wasn't the issue. They would not allow others to display the pride flag, banning it from being flown on city property.

@Wayfarer
Well,I'm trying to be charitable,and I find it discriminatory,especially from a thinking bloke like yourself.

And just to clarify,what do you mean by tolerance and inclusivity have gone to far?

From whose perspective? Secular liberals? So since when are they the arbiters of tolerance and truth?

@Banno
I haven't seen a trusted media link.

But let's say it's true. How is that representative of Muslims at large? Or migrants? Xenophobia much.

And just to clarify,what do you mean by tolerance and inclusivity have gone to far? — Swanty

I gave an example that I thought illustrates some of the issues, which was apparently interpreted by yourself as 'discriminatory against Muslims', although it wasn't intended as such.

The fact that you react so violently at the mere mention kind of illustrates the point at issue.

@Wayfarer
Wow! So now you interpret my reaction as violent!

This is exactly the kind of racist islamaphobic stereotype I was talking about.

Man,the sweet innocent liberal with "superior values" surely loves to resort to totally imaginary stereotypes when pushed.
Your attitude is the problem mate. You don't like Muslims like me telling you how we feel. It offends your "superior" sentiments and imperial worldview.

OK, ‘heated’, not ‘violent’. Which it undoubtedly is.

I haven't seen a trusted media link. — Swanty

Then you haven't looked. You are begging for a fight here, seeing hostility where there is none. In that you are playing into the stereotype you supposedly reject.

2010 we had the orchestrated "Arab spring"interventions,we have genocide in Palestine currently. The US engineered Ukraine conflict. And the less talked about western backed conflicts currently in Africa. — Swanty

Especially if you are an American, don't think that everything evolves around your navel.

You didn't engineer the "Arab Spring". You didn't engineer the Hamas operation "Al Aqsa Flood" and the Israeli response to it. And you didn't engineer the war in Ukraine as you didn't engineer the various revolutions that Ukraine has had.

You only participated in them, tried to influence the outcome. The US was one actor among many. And many not the most important actor. Some times not even the most important foreign actor. Engineering means that someone has been prime instigator of something.

Western haughty hubris has simply transitioned from thinking about "the burden of the white man" to this idea of everything bad happening in the World somehow happening because of the West (and especially the US). In this totally (and unintentionally) arrogant way this idea sidelines totally the actual actors in the countries and in the regions where the conflicts happen and overemphasize your own importance. People and countries are either poor victims or then henchmen of the West actions, not independent actors with their own objectives.

I think this idea is perfectly shown in two very different commentators, namely in the arguments of John Mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky. Mersheimer starts with his theory of great powers and simply disregard domestic politics of the nations themselves. He actually has said this quite clearly himself. Now, let's think about this: would it be reasonable to disregard domestic politics when it comes to the US foreign policy? Is "the blob" really so independent of US domestic politics? That would be strange, but somehow not strange when it's other countries. Where Mearsheimer sees a chess game, others might not see just a game between other powers. But why should Mearsheimer care about what Putin thinks about internal politics and the situation of Russia, when he has his theory of great power competition to explain everything?

Noam Chomsky disregards foreign actors in another way: he sees as his role as an intellectual to criticize US foreign policy and leaves the critique of other countries to "the dissidents" of these countries. Again just like with Mersheimer there's a problem when Chomsky then explains the origins of some conflict or war from this viewpoint. It totally sidelines that local actors, other non-US actors and their agenda and thus the explanation is in the end that everything as a result of US involvement. Yet it is obvious that in many cases these conflict would happen with or without US involvement.

Yet the real reason is that both Mearsheimer and Chomsky sell what people want to hear. They don't want to hear a confusing story about events they know little about where the US and other powers come to do their own thing.

The book "confessions of an economic hitman" shows how some of this economic thuggery is achieved and maintained. — Swanty

I've read that one, have it in my bookshelf. However, don't think that this is solely something that the West does. The unipolar moment has already gone.

@Wayfarer
Your just backtracking,obfuscatingand taking no responsibility for your mistakes and ignorance.

It's obvious you know very little about Muslims,Islam or realities on the ground.
Yours is media hogwash which appeases your western superiority narrative.

@Banno
Another anti religious liberal displays his exenophobia and anxiety to stereotype when under pressure.

I suspect you are not long for this forum.

@Banno

Yes the great "liberal " weapon when confronted withTruth,run and censor!

Democracy Song by Leonard Cohen


It's coming through a hole in the air,
From those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
That this ain't exactly real
Or it's real, but it ain't exactly there

From the wars against disorder
From the sirens night and day
From the fires of the homeless
From the ashes of the gay
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming through a crack in the wall
On a visionary flood of alcohol
From the staggering account
Of the Sermon on the Mount
Which I don't pretend to understand at all

It's coming from the silence
On the dock of the bay
From the brave, the bold, the battered
Heart of Chevrolet
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street
The holy places where the races meet
From the homicidal bitchin'
That goes down in every kitchen
To determine who will serve and who will eat

From the wells of disappointment
Where the women kneel to pray
For the grace of God in the desert here
And the desert far away
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on

It's coming to America first
The cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
And the machinery for change
And it's here they got the spiritual thirst

It's here the family's broken
And it's here the lonely say
That the heart has got to open
In a fundamental way
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men
O baby, we'll be making love again
We'll be going down so deep
The river's going to weep
And the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
Beneath the lunar sway
Imperial, mysterious
In amorous array
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight
Getting lost in that hopeless little screen

But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
That Time cannot decay
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
This little wild bouquet
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

That's hilarious. Great song. I was going to post Cohen's Everybody Knows.

@ssu
I'm not American.

I do agree with you in saying that we shouldn't ignore domestic policies of colonised countries,or use western imperialism as a cop out for the corruption of eastern governments.

I 100% agree that colonised countries took western money and used this to oppress their own lower and muddle classes,and enrich themselves.They bear responsibility for that.

When I talk about the ongoing imperialism I said Europe AND the US,with the US and UK being the prime movers of weaponry and economic oppression. And this imperialism is only achieved with the tacit approval of the ruling class of the imperialised country.

Chomsky and merscheimer are academics/experts pimping off handringing and criticising US policy without the full world picture.

But my bottom line is the west is still the main instigator and supplier of weapons and money for conflict and world economic trade conflict.
You can't dispute that.
And just for full clarity,I regard Russia as European as well.

muddle classes — Swanty

Is this a jokey play on words or are you a New Zealander?

And just to clarify,what do you mean by tolerance and inclusivity have gone to far? — Swanty

You’ll find that the only bigotry allowed here on the forum is religious bigotry.