• Greed is not natural selection at work, it's exploitation.
    Is greed a result of the addiction of feeling the need for dominance in an attempt to escape the mortality of yourself, and of your lineage and constituents?Lif3r

    lol. No. One couldn't think like that if they're entangled in a cycle of greed. Greed is an affliction. There should not be a confusion as to what greed is. We know what it is. And you've done well in your post to articulate the problem. That said, let's talk about this: almost everyone wants to get a piece of the pie. But a greedy person not only would resort to deception to get it, but would horde the resources in their possession when they know another person could use it. Greedy people usually hide what they have or if they don't hide it, they make sure it's secure.
  • Cybernetics as Social Control
    I question the mechanical metaphor.

    Consider a river that has a course, and we see that the course changes by the oxbow lakes and so on, but the course is stable over a lifetime, most of the time. But there is a day of revolution when the bank is breached and the meander is short-circuited. There is no who and no apparatus either. The river operates on itself, and the river is the water and the course. A river is never broken.

    Machinations are appropriate to political thought because thought is mechanical; but life is not.
    unenlightened

    Yeah, well, tell that to Foucault and the likes. Apparently, the apparatus is in all of our lives.
  • There Are No Shortcuts To Excellence
    So in other words, you're saying option B takes more patience.HardWorker

    I think so. The length of time one must do a particular activity in one sitting requires patience. If one works full day, as oppose to half day, I guess.
  • If an omniscient person existed would we hate them or cherish them
    If someone literally knew everything you could ever ask would people feel defeated and worthless in their presence and resent the fact that there’s no longer a need to explore discuss or discover anything or would we cherish them as the source of all answersBenj96

    Do you mean Google? I don't know if it's a he or a she or an it, but don't people cherish it as the source of all answers?
  • Cybernetics as Social Control
    What I'm also positing of apparatuses is that, upon discovering their machinations, you necessarily are making an attempt to render them inoperative.thewonder
    Could be. Good intuition.
  • There Are No Shortcuts To Excellence
    Sorry, in my last post, I meant to say option B.
  • Cybernetics as Social Control
    I tend to be of the opinion that in order to render social control inoperative it would be necessary to identify what the apparatuses are through which control is exerted, how they operate, and who controls them.Apollodorus
    There is no "who", the apparatuses are automatic -- like I said, even the actors in it are unaware of the machinations.
  • Conspiracy, paranoia, denial, and related issues
    Yes, it is a theory. But I'm referring to those conspiracy theories that are (1) evidence-based, (2) well-thought-out, and (3) likely to be true, as opposed, for example, to deliberately fabricated narratives serving as political propaganda.

    I'm referring to a subclass of "conspiracy theory" for which I do not as yet have a name. If you wish to suggest one, please feel free to do so.
    Apollodorus

    Analytical theory is just such that. An analysis is called that because there is an attempt to piece together not just a belief (as beliefs are in conspiracy theory) but a weighing of evidence and an invitation to submit criticisms against it. You organize your thoughts in such a way that you have already formulated a conclusion, but it's open to unpacking of parts by outside observers.

    I mean, like, seriously, why do a subclass of conspiracy theory when you can have a class of its own that functions as an antithesis to conspiracy theory.
  • Conspiracy, paranoia, denial, and related issues
    QUESTION 2. How can conspiracy or “conspiracy theory” be discussed without participants falling into either of the extremes? Is this at all possible, or are we reaching a point of no return where the concept of dialogue and debate has lost all meaning?Apollodorus

    Do you know people like that in your life? In both camps? I do.
  • Cybernetics as Social Control
    the text where this idea is outlined by Michel Foucault, and am somewhat hesitant to use Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari's terminology from the text that I have read, A Thousand Plateaus, but, I am willing to posit that social control is primarily secured and maintained through the utilization of various apparatuses.thewonder
    Foucault was often credited for the conception "apparatus", I think. So let's settle on that. What repulsed the readers, if not the scholars, of political philosophy is, the word itself is meant to be a warning, a sinister existence both physical and psychological. We're in a matrix, so to speak. And there is a network or networks of structures in place already planned and designed for you -- you believe you're thinking for yourself, you're a free agent, you plan for the future, the results of your hard work and time spent is all credited to you. But you don't see that there's an apparatus, a machination, running in the background that's already planned your actions and decisions. Look up the docile bodies.

    If it sounds like a science fiction, it's because the apparatus narrative hasn't been already brought down to the common people narrative. The philosophy behind this is to blame. It's hard to articulate something that exists both in physical structures and in your psyche (your mind, soul, and spirit -- to borrow a dictionary definition) without sounding like a caricature, or worse, delusional.


    You can think of one as an aggregated set of machinations that get people to act in a manner that is beneficial to the set of people who design them.thewonder
    This could be unintentional. We can argue that the intent of the apparatuses is to protect the establishment itself. Remember, the machinations relegates humans as subjects, including the ones operating the machines. This is a horrifying thing to say if we actually let this discussion go down that path.

    What I am further willing to posit is that much of what is actually happening within both the realms of the political and the social is that such an automated form of control has been attempted to have been put into effect and more or less everyone else is attempting to render it inoperative.thewonder
    Too late. The machination is in place. I haven't read @Apollodorus post about this. But if he could post it here, that can help.
  • Cybernetics as Social Control
    Can you try to describe it better? I'm still not getting what you're trying to explain. Not a criticism. I just need to understand it better.
  • There Are No Shortcuts To Excellence
    Of course both require patience, in neither case are you going to make $400 instantaneously. The question is, if going with option A requires more patience since that option does take it longer to reach your goal.HardWorker
    It looks like time is the essence of patience, so yeah, option A requires more patience in a sense that the length of time to arrive at your goal is longer. I think you inadvertently implied that working is the key to your question. In actuality, working 40 hours requires more patience, than working 20 hours a week.
  • There Are No Shortcuts To Excellence
    So does going with option A take more patience? Does going with option B mean one is impatient?HardWorker
    Both requires patience. Efficiency shouldn't be a "criticism" against patience. Saving time shouldn't diminish the value of patience.
  • Schopenhauer on suffering and the vanity of existence
    How is any of this an "anti-dote for suffering"??baker
    I don't know how to answer your question.
  • Schopenhauer on suffering and the vanity of existence
    Really, what antidote is that?baker

    Here's a copy-pasted brief from Grief: A Brief History of Research on How Body, Mind, and Brain Adapt by Mary-Frances O’Connor, PhD:

    Important historical developments in bereavement research

    Descriptions and theories of what happens in grief have largely come from psychiatry and psychology. From these domains, current grief research relies heavily on attachment theory and cognitive stress theory to understand the process of adapting after the death of a loved one, rather than the outdated and inaccurate five-stage model of grief(3). Acute grief, or the period immediately following a death, is often characterized by a loss of regulation. This can be observed as increased intensity and frequency of sadness, anger and/or anxiety, and also emotional numbness and difficulty concentrating, in addition to dysregulation in sleep and appetite.

    There are wide individual differences in the adaptation process, but George Bonanno has demonstrated a small number of trajectories, using prospective data to examine adaptation after a death(4,5). One insight from this work, which disrupted the field of bereavement research, was that the vast majority of individuals are very resilient (approximately 60%). By six months, the resilient group shows no elevation in depressive symptoms or functional impairment. This does not mean that resilient people do not experience the intense short-term pangs of grief, but these emotional waves do not cause functional impairment. The realization that previous theories of grief were largely based on a treatment-seeking population forced the field to reconsider some of its assumptions. Consequently, a very influential model of grief, the dual process model of coping, was adopted to reflect the oscillation that occurs in typical grief(6). In day-to-day life during bereavement, healthy people oscillate between focusing on loss-related stressors (e.g., the pain of living without the person) and restoration-related stressors (e.g., engaging in new roles and identities due to the loss), and at other times are simply engaged in everyday life experience.

    Importantly, Bonanno’s research demonstrated that the functioning of a person prior to the death event is also an important aspect of their trajectory of adaptation. ...

    There are other examples, but I hope this sampling suffices for now.
  • Schopenhauer on suffering and the vanity of existence
    Is the balance in existence really so skewed towards suffering as Schopenhauer claims?aldreams
    Schopenhauer amplifies suffering -- like a caricature-- to make his point. So, it is a skewed view. What he forgets is that humans have the capacity to bend and sway and adapt. We have a natural anti-dote for suffering, this is what Schopenhauer forgets or ignores. Darwin did not become a household name for spewing positive and uplifting notes -- but by pointing out facts of how humans have come a long way. Hope is also not a feel-good mantra. We have hope because there are variables available to us to exploit or take advantage of.

    Are the good things in life really as fleeting and inconsequential as he presents them?aldreams
    No. The good things in life can last a lifetime or forever. And they can be meaningful -- we erected civilization and learned compassion.

    Could S. be importing his own personal bias and presenting it as objective truth?aldreams
    Yes, he is importing his own bias. But he is not giving a fair account of life. Point-counterpoint is not being exercised here. There is a pessimistic view, then there is maturity.

    Even if there is a bias, could there still be value to Schopenhauer's pessimism, for example a pedagogical one? Could his work be an exercise in philosophical education? What kind of education would this be?aldreams
    Yes, as a polemical sociological critique. At least the Cynics understand the method of facts and acceptance of what can be changed and what are beyond our capacity to control. Schopenhauer makes a blanket denouncement of existence. Not the same.
  • I feel like a lesser man
    It's like i was born into a family of warriors and i can never be one like my brothers. In times of battle, they would often leave me behind because i am weak. I try to be good at things but i am never manly enough for them.Desperado
    Act according to your nature -- your family, if they're good people, will acknowledgment that not everyone is the same. Be adaptable to what you think you want, not what you should be because of your family history. Of course, as with anything in life, you need to take care of your basic needs -- able to support yourself and not rely on others all the time. So, combine those two to-do task and you shouldn't have to wonder if you're "useful" or "like your brother".
  • On Memory, Insight, Rebirth & Time
    That's far from true. Numerous experiments show how unreliable our memories are.fishfry

    I think this needs more explanation. Memory was responsible for the rise of civilization -- so, when we say memory is unreliable, we need to explain in what context it is unreliable. Because we routinely go to work and back home, taking the same route, knowing the address we live in, recognizing our coworkers, family members, neighbors, and friends. I mean, our memory is a powerhouse of freakin' society. Not to mention, we rely heavily on memory for our financial activities, safety, and well-being.

    In what context then is memory unreliable? When we need the crystal clear minute detail account of an event that may or may not send a person to the electric chair? This is a burden of testimony by memory that has a specific purpose. Don't come out of the courthouse feeling stupid, demented, or low-IQ just because you didn't deliver razor-sharp details of what happened on the night of December 31st on a cold winter midnight. That's for movies!
  • Is someone obligated to do the right thing in a corrupt system?
    However, I also had the thought that doing the right thing in a corrupt system benefits that corrupt system. And that's where I found myself in a quandary.Tex
    In a system where you can leave it behind and go somewhere else, doing the right thing while in that system benefits that corrupt system.
  • Are insults legitimate debate tactics?
    I stop when I see an insult, not just because it's usually funny but because it indicates that someone feels very strongly about this particular point, and that perhaps I should examine it more deeply. I think insults are useful in that regard, they aren't always just rhetorical flourish, they direct our attention to important details.darthbarracuda
    Cutting remarks are always made to bring a person a few notches down. It is hurtful and always personal. Insults, when done cleverly, can make another listen intently and agree. Other insults are delivered to "win" an ongoing battle of personalities: Consider the following (a well known exchange):

    "You're drunk!" -- cutting
    "Madam, in the morning I will be sober but you will still be ugly." -- insult

    I avoid these types of exchange. It saddens me when people go this low. Otherwise, I, too, enjoy reading insults and sarcasms.
  • Are insults legitimate debate tactics?
    So if there was no real insult thrown at you personally, is it legitimate to use insults, puts-downs, sneering sarcasm,schopenhauer1
    Sarcasm is not the same as an insult. Sarcasm is not necessarily disrespectful. In fact, it is one of the staples of a lively argumentation. It also helps illuminate a point that could otherwise be ignored or not reach the "aha!" moment.

    Insults are unavoidable in heated arguments, or controversial topics. And there are types of insults -- personal, technical, professional, or topical. It's the personal insults that have no place in philosophical arguments.

    Those who create threads for discussion, like you, will naturally have a share of sarcasms and insults. That is the nature of the beast. Call them out if it's personal -- otherwise, you can respond to insults and sarcasms and move the topic along.
  • The pill of immortality
    Consider a scenario in which scientists discover a way to reverse the aging process and keep a person young forever, and that this treatment becomes available to the public in the form of a single pill, with no strings attached. It truly is the miracle drug, a fountain of youth, that gives a person immortality.

    Would you take it?
    darthbarracuda

    It depends. If I could take it along with family members and friends, yes, I would. Otherwise, I would continually form a family, meanwhile thinking back of the loved ones no longer with me. Memories of people I once loved and spent time with, but no longer with me, would be soulful for me.
  • Economic Ideology
    I was confused by this remark. In the US doesn't everyone have the right to own a house?fishfry

    lol. Yes.
  • Moral reasoning. The fat man and the impeding doom dilemma.
    Interesting point! I put an example of a group because the original author pretended to defend that mostly the masses would act against to the individual just to survive.
    If is only one man against the fat man, this one would die anyways but I guess in this example is quite worse for awareness because the responsibility cannot distributed
    javi2541997
    That is why this scenario, "choice" of action among available alternatives is not necessarily an ethical one. It is one of practicality -- "either you or me". Like I said, consent or the will is important.
  • Moral reasoning. The fat man and the impeding doom dilemma.
    There seems no way to get the fat man loose without using [that] dynamite which will inevitably kill him; but if they do not use it everyone will drown. What should they do?javi2541997
    As this is a question of morality, according to the author, I will answer accordingly.

    I will get the consensus of all, including the fat man. I understand that this is about practicality so I gather that his saying "no" will lend little to the enlightenment of everyone in the cave. But since we are answering this as a matter of moral discourse, I'd say that his consent matters. If he says, "You have my permission. I'd like to save you", then thank him for his altruism and proceed to do it.

    Here the fat man is doing an altruistic decision. The others have either no moral gain or moral burden to carry on with life. The act of the fat man is what matters here.

    If, on the other hand, he says "No, I don't want to be blown up. Please don't kill me! I did not do this on purpose so you all could be stuck in this cave. I also did not know that the opening of the cave is too small for me to pass", then, the only thing left to do is to ask for his forgiveness before blowing him up against his will.

    The fat man refusing to be blown up has no moral obligation, as intent here to harm others is lacking nor negligence is at issue. As to the individuals in the cave who killed him, the willingness to kill a person so others could live provides no moral gain when life is only seen as numbers. A moral act does not increase in moral value just because there are more people affected. Try asking this question on one on one: what if there's only one person stuck in the cave besides the fat man. It's either the fat man or the other.
  • Are people getting more ignorant?
    Yeah let them experience the natural attachment to their mom. They're kids!
  • Are people getting more ignorant?
    Once I get them,Hanover

    So you haven't got them.
  • Some Of The Worst Things In My Life Never Happened
    Not necessarily, but that works. Our conceptual mind takes 'what is' and morphs it into 'what we think it is' or 'what we imagine it to be' or 'what we would like ti to be' or 'what we fear it is,' etc.synthesis
    Yes, each one's interpretation of practical reality -- or practical life -- depends, for a good portion, on ones' mind. But it is not necessarily true that it is warped. You've heard of the expressions, "get a grip" or "down to earth", that we utter from time to time when we want a person to see things better. The other person could get frustrated why others couldn't see or feel what he's feeling -- dude, there are zombies around, people are running for their lives....no clean water!! How could you even be relaxed? Are you crazy?!
    But there have been studies of intelligence that focus mainly on how accurate our assessment of practical reality is -- there are measurements that can determine whether our take on reality is very good. People have been correct in their assessment of life, of the world.

    I hope what I'm saying makes sense.
  • What would you leave behind?
    In the realization that the love of money does not lead to well-bing.praxis
    Good take! It surely does not.
  • We are a delayed civilization
    But how emotionally intelligent we become as a society.SteveMinjares

    I don't think it's about emotional intelligence, although this is a good characteristic to have. Primal fears and instincts will be with us so long as we're humans. And no amount of big cities and libraries the size of four city blocks can surgically make them disappear.
  • Some Of The Worst Things In My Life Never Happened
    Instead of living life the way is, our minds (those incredibly clever magicians) take reality and, without so much as a sleight-of-hand, create all kinds of illusions that define the majority of our lives.synthesis

    Do you mean... imagination?
  • Are people getting more ignorant?
    I just bought 3 goats.Hanover

    Wow! Are they pygmy goats?
  • What would you leave behind?
    How do you see this changing people's actions or attitudes towards life? Do they try to fight capitalism or try to live in a more minimalistic way in the countryside?FlaccidDoor
    Why is it always about capitalism? We can have capitalism and install fairness and equity as safety valves.
  • Truth vs Pleasure
    Why bother with the need for truth when a person has easy access to pleasure.Nikolas

    We can bring this down to practical matters. One of the things to ask yourself about being let go from your job is "Was I treated fairly?" Instead, many people would like the positive narrative of exit interview with words like, "We'll provide you with good references".

    What makes you think truth, the encounter with it, is not pleasure itself?tim wood
    :ok:
  • What would you leave behind?
    You are on your deathbed as the world's greatest philosopher, surrounded by your loved ones and fans alike. Everyone there vows to cherish 1 thing you would leave behind. What you say to them will be passed down to their kids, and possibly their grandkids and so on for generations.FlaccidDoor

    The love of money is the root of all evil -- St. Paul
  • A saying of David Hilbert
    "A mathematical theory is not to be considered complete until you have made it so clear that you can explain it to the first man whom you meet on the street."tim wood

    And that is the explanation for "what is clear and easily comprehended attracts".
  • The Ontological Point
    Ironically, your statement fits comfortably with the theories and hypotheses that affirm extraterrestrial life different from Humanity, which are also supported by the inaccessibility of the evidence, and the overdetermining of the cause - the necessity of inteligent life being different than the one on Earth -.Gus Lamarch
    I believe you are mistaken. My argument is that you cannot arrive at your conclusion cause there's something missing still that you have not put an effort to.

    Again, I ask, please try to explain why we cannot access other vantage point to support an argument that there are other beings besides us, there are other point of view besides ours. Oh yeah, I forgot, you just assume this. And hope that other readers, too.

    What I see here is this format -- we are humans, so anthropomorphically, we are allowed to make claims about human point of view and nothing else; we can't rationally argue that there are other points of view cause we need to take into account we are humans. Circle completed!
  • Psycho-philosophy of whinging
    it seems to me like introverts are people who neither need to dump their excess emotions on others nor charge up on others’ emotions, maintaining emotional homeostasis alone, whereas extroverts need other people to give or take stimulation from them in order to achieve emotional balance.Pfhorrest
    :ok:
  • The Ontological Point
    What it seems to me that you are not understanding is that I do not rule out the possibility of the existence of intelligent life outside the Earth.Gus Lamarch
    I do not assume that you rule out the possibility of the existence of intelligent life. I read from your argument that it is
    However, if applied the "Ontological Principle" that "no argument is valid if it overdetermine a cause that affects only external factors without having any kind of internal consequence", we are able to reach the following conclusion:Gus Lamarch
    Instead of arguing from that angle, which is futile, as you've already argued the above, talk about vantage point -- and why it is valid to argue that there are other intelligent lifeforms.

    Do you see this point? Arguing by invoking the inaccessibility of a vantage point. "Because we can't do crap, we also can't say crap". You're not entitled yet to claim that there can be no valid argument to be made.