I am in a safe Tory seat unfortunately and will vote for the remain alliance, which ever party represents this.

Agreed, Rebecca Long Bailey has just said that the position of the Labour Party is that stopping a no deal Brexit comes before any priority for a general election. They do know about the elephant trap and that Johnson will thrash about for any means of preventing parliament acting. This might include fooling the opposition into helping him call a general election( he needs a two thirds majority in the house to call the election) which would be held before 31st of October and then changing the date to after that date further down the line. Or any number of distractions to delay it until beyond that date. Ensuring a no deal Brexit with no debate, or consent from parliament.

It looks as though Johnson is already grasping at straws and sinking into chaos.

Remember Remember the 1st of November.

It is putting party before country all the way, down. The problem is the hard brexiters within the Tory party see no other way out. If we don't leave without a deal they will implode with a viscous fight within thelmselves and electoral oblivion, it will buoy up the Brexit party if this happens, but only temporarily and then they will hang around on the margins for a generation or so, being a one issue party, on an issue which has been decided. We will gradually all get back to normal and restore the "good chap", method of government.

The biggest travesty is that the Queen was drawn into the deceit, had she not agreed to prorogue, she would have entered the fray and the Tory's would have savaged her. The distinguished historian Peter Henesey said on Friday, "on the 27th of August in the library of Balmoral, the good chap theory of government broke apart at the feet of the Queen." This is the treason and I will be taking it up with the headmaster of Eton college.

Sickening, they just lined up and said what their aids had decided the Tory base wants, while airing their dirty Landry in public. We saw Johnson's true colour's there, he didn't answer a single question, just waffled and tried to shout down the interviewer on the ITV debate, launched a pathetic attack on Hunt in reference to the UK ambassador to the US. While ignoring any of the pressing political and government issues. His stance on Brexit faced both ways at the same time, in a vain attempt to draw the two sides of his Party together.

Literally a pantomime, great for the image of the Tory party, which is sinking like the Titanic.

I think Jo Swindon is grand standing to get some media exposure. She claimed Corbyn had made it a precondition that he would be the caretaker PM before the coalition bring the no confidence vote. I see no evidence of this, but rather Corbyn proposing that it should be him as he is the leader of the opposition. She is going to talk with him, so I think they will work something out, and she only has a few MPs, although they are growing at the moment and I expect they would split if it came to the crunch.

It was hilarious watching Grant Shapps last night saying we can't have Corbyn leading a caretaker government because he would wreck the economy etc, when it is well known that the caretaker government would explicitly be for the one purpose of stopping no deal and calling an immediate general election. This is the standard of Tory rhetoric these days, a laughingstock.

Yes, Corbyn is a true socialist and a long way left of the current administration, or perhaps what might be desirable. However I think the state of the nation is so unbalanced, so skewed against any social equality, so rampant exploitation of people who are vulnerable through a lack of resources. The welfare state is so under resourced, squeezed and on its knees, that the only way to restore any balance and equality, to bring us back from the brink of some sort of social/cultural breakdown would be to move radically towards the left and bring some relief for those who are struggling and being exploited.

I expect you are aware of how inflated property prices discriminate against the under resourced. In the UK the housing crisis is fuelling a rapid increase in the gap between the rich and the poor. Leaving anyone who is not a property owner exploited by those who do and the redistribution of the poor into sink towns and estates and the well off gentrifying idillic villages and desirable areas. These forces are exploited through contemporary forms of capitalism and corporate interests. This alongside the way in which the wealthy and corporations syphon of wealth and profits offshore, is bleeding the society dry.

We really do need this state of affairs rectifying , rather than being fuelled by a trade deal with the US.

I would prefer Corbyn to Johnson, because we would have some welcome policies enacted. His lack of leadership as it comes across in the media is preferable than the buffoonery irrespective of the policies. Actually as a government I would expect the Labour Party to do well and work diligently towards repairing an ailing economy following 10 years of Tory austerity.

I would point out that the way Corbyn is depicted in the British media Including on the BBC is over critical and biased in favour of an accepted view amongst the intelligentsia/establishment that he is bad news, an extreme socialist, Marxist( in the most negative sense)* and that his government would pretty much bankrupt the country, drown us in debt, be chaotic and disorganised and bring back overbearing unions etc etc. Such views, although often watered down, are widely accepted as fact in the UK amongst large swathes of the population. This bias has persisted from the 1970's and is rarely challenged in the media and many left wing commentators are largely disregarded as lefties.

In reality it would begin to bring back some sorely needed balance in the running of the country, which has become unequal, exploitative etc, with public services in a state of bankruptcy. It left us over exposed in the financial crisis, with most of the population just about managing, teetering on the edge of defaulting on their mortgages, or loans( so you can see how sorely we need a no deal Brexit).

*I didn't even mention the slurs about a Corbyn foreign policy. Which are in the realms of he is dangerous( wear as Johnson is not), is probably in the pocket of Putin and could not be trusted to push the nuclear button if the country was under attack.

The reason they elected Johnson was to save the Tory party. That is even more important than Brexit, although most Tory's think Brexit is essential to achieve it and that not leaving in short order will destroy the party anyway.

The way he will(apparently) do it is by beating Corbyn decisively in an election and delivering Brexit, hence rendering the Brexit party meaningless. There's no other way of saving them and Johnson has the popularity amongst the electorate ( supposedly) to do it.

The're doomed in the long run, as their support is mainly old middle class white and almost non existent in the young, and what there is is dropping off a cliff at the moment.

Yes, but this was always about what the British people want. The EU have repeatedly asked what we want and they will accommodate that, what ever it is, in a way which maintains the integrity of their single market and the 4 freedoms etc.

I've thought of a new mantra, harking back to the gunpowder plot. Following which the population was taught to recite the saying "Remember Remember the 5th of November", as a warning against plotters to overthrow parliament. Now, we must start saying;

Remember Remember the 1st of November.

(Johnson is considering calling an election to be held on the 1st of November.)

I don't see May's deal as a compromise because the country is to polarised now. It is either total no deal exit, or revoke. Neither side would accept May's deal.

Even if May's deal is accepted, it is only a transition, the new relationship has not been worked out yet and the same issues of Northern Ireland, single market, customs union etc will still have to be solved.

I think Labour will have to campaign for remain in the general election, because otherwise a coalition of remain party's will decimate their vote. It might be to late already because a lot of voters have written Corbyn off as unreliable, because he is at heart anti EU, whilst also showing few leadership skills and a hopeless leader of the opposition.

I expect the Lib Dems will win the popular vote, but I don't know how that adds up in numbers of constituencies to win a general election. I expect that about two thirds of the people who will vote will vote for remain party's now, because it is such an unholy mess with the only sensible way out being to revoke article 50.

Yeah, pretty sure May’s agreement is the compromise. What the government want is for the EU to give us more without us giving anything back.

It would be interesting to know what the "more" is, I bet the EU negotiators would like to know that too.
The trouble is if there is a no deal exit then the brexiters will have to work out what the "more" is. Because when the shit hits the fan, they'll have to sit down with the EU again and go right back to square one with the same issues to deal with, while having lost all leverage, integrity and face.

Perhaps they will find that to unpalatable and say to hell with the EU, we'll go and find other friends. Only to find no one else will want to make friends with us until they know what our relationship with the EU will be. So again they will have to go back and sit down with the EU, with even less credibility.

I can't see any hope for the Conservative party, the're dooomed. At least then we will get someone more moderate, or left wing in for a while and begin to put the country back together again after 40 years of being ravaged by Tory's.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I would bet that this won't be true, that's his leadership and/or government is going to fall before that date.

I'd agree, from the commentary yesterday it looks like he won't get that far and parliament will seize power during September.

So the no confidence vote will be at the beginning of September, parliament will then have 14 days to find a leader who can command a majority in the house. Johnson is powerless to prevent this and can't advise the Queen(as he doesn't have the confidence of the house). If this fails parliament can command Johnson to request a further extension from the EU for a general election. Which he must do or the Queen would be likely to sack him and form another government against his will.

Thank God for the Queen, I wonder who is giving her advice at this time? I'm not sure the Privy council can be relied upon to be untainted at this point?

But Johnson will be PM until 10/31. And then there's an election? I don't get it.
7 hours ago Options

There isn't a working government during an election campaign. Also the election hasn't been called as yet.

We have an interesting twist developing at the moment. At a meeting of representatives of the EU 27 yesterday, it was stated that there is currently no basis for any talks with the UK and that the EU is working on the assumption that there will now be no deal.

While back at home Boris appears to have boxed himself in. He cannot negotiate with the EU, because they will not agree to what he wants, I don't think he knows what he wants and he hasn't announced it. He would come back from the EU with egg on his face and be judged weak by his party, which would resume the implosion of the party, which he's only just managing to hold together.

He can't adopt no deal as the official policy of the government because Parliament would bring the government down. Which would also resume the implosion of the party and could bring in a party of national unity before 31st October. So he just blusters on claiming that he wants a deal, while not meeting or approaching the EU, or the leaders of our European neighbours. Something which is, by the way, highly disrespectful to neighbourly relations.

He has to string us along as far as possible so that he can instigate a general election less that 5 weeks before 31st October( a general election takes a minimum of 5 weeks). As an alternative to pirogueing parliament(which he can't do now, as Dominic Grieve would take him to court at that point). So that there is no government on 31st October and we leave the EU by default.

Oh and of course, the EU would be to blame with their "undemocratic backstop".

This is how he saves the Conservative party from oblivion, because there would then be no need for the Brexit party.

Are there any leavers out there who want to point out how this is not putting party before country and a perversion of democracy?

Question to the UK members: was the prospect of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and the consequent risk of a return of the Troubles, highlighted in the referendum campaign as a likely consequence of leaving?

If not, surely that alone is sufficient reason to have a second vote, as it would be reasonable to assume that many people were not aware of that very significant consequence when they cast their first vote.

Sorry I missed this. In my recollection this was not mentioned at all during the campaign. And I agree with Michael, that the risk of the Good Friday agreement failing is sufficient reason to revoke article 50 and return to the decision to leave after a public debate.

Thanks for your thoughts, its interesting to hear insight from someone outside the UK. I sympathise with your concerns. Where I differ in my analysis is that I don't see the EU becoming a corporate entity, in the short term at least. I see how this is an issue in the US and I can see how corporate interests would move in on the touted trade deal with the US. Also I realised that the Ttip negotiations hinged around corporate access into the EU from the US. In my view the EU has quite good social democrat values and processes and it cannot be overstated that the Union was an important remedy to thousands of years of conflict between different regions within Europe.

The issue of "ever closer union" is a different matter and is at the heart of the crisis in the UK. I should stress that I see a deep existential crisis within the UK. This was a surprise to the EU and has been realised and spoken about by Michel Barnier, the EU chief negotiator. Leading to them bending over backwards to accommodate the UK and their flexibility in granting extensions, while the Conservatives fight amongst themselves.

As I see it the issue in this crisis is the love hate relationship between the UK and other parts of Europe which has been ongoing for thousands of years. The dichotomy between the concept of us being in Europe, or out of Europe is a conundrum occupying the thoughts of British people repeatedly over this period, without a resolution. So periodically we are revisited with crises hinging on this point.

On this ocassion it appears to have manifested inside the Conservative party, which is tearing itself apart and may soon implode, while visiting considerable flack on the population at large.

But then the nearby hinterlands could be converted to banana plantations to take advantage of the change in the climate.

A banana republic, lol

Well said. I have been surprised for years now how polarised the US electorate is. While I thought politics was more fluid in the UK. Now we are equally, if not more so, polarised and it is quite a surprise. I realise that the split had been developing beneath the surface for years, but I thought the EU scepticism was in a minority amongst the hard right and a little amongst the hard left. What surprised many was a large group of traditionally working class labour voters in the north who voted leave and a strong leave vote in agricultural areas ( who will suffer most from leaving).

Unfortunately this has resulted in the hard right seizing power, so we're in for a rollercoaster ride now.

[qoute]
I was saying that those on either side who argue that it is the end of things if what they want does not happen are not helping the debate or the discussions. I think they don't know this will be the case, in either the short or the long term. They are speculating,and wildly, but presenting it is as if it is a clear and obvious rational conclusion. [/quote]
Oh, I see, thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree. The problem from where I'm standing is that the majority of the electorate who voted and will vote if there is another referendum don't ever find out what the real issues are, what reality will be like. All they hear is the popularised slogans on each side.

I follow the media quite closely and I'm struggling to get down to the facts and realities. A case in point is the BBC, the one news organisation one can rely on. Or so I thought, but they rarely point out the implications of the events they report on, they just give a simplified gloss of the events of the day. They do have some more indeapth analysis, but you have to watch news night, or politics live to get it, which the majority of the population don't do.

I am beginning to have doubts about their impartiality, or at least their editorial decisions. They appear to be falling for the anti Corbyn, anti labour rhetoric and giving to much credence to the hard right dogma. While relentlessly attempting to analyse the minutiae of the internal politics of the Labour Party and continuously failing to call out the Tory bluster about the political psycho drama and undemocratic power struggles within the Tory party and with their corporate supporters.

How the UK economy develops is more dependent on how the Global economy goes, but likely there will be an urge to blame / praise Brexit depending on the political stance of the commentator. So if the economy doesn't collapse, Boris will praise the decision and so on. Hardly anyone will admit the obvious that Brexit IS NOT the most important thing that decides if the UK will be in a recession or not. Nope, with or without Brexit, it's a globalized World.

This was my opinion shortly after the referendum result ( although the leave narrative at that time was one in which we would have the "exact same benefits" etc). However as time has gone by the magnitude of what it means to leave the EU has started to become evident.

This morning Johnson has been saying that there will be lots of support for all the farmers, small and medium sized businesses, drug supplies, even heavy industry, I expect the next thing he's going to say is that he will prop up/ bribe the car plants, who are all saying they will move to Southern Europe(where there is a large desperate workforce, just waiting to pick up the pieces) following a no deal Brexit. All this while spending all the money that has been planned for to be borrowed( this morning stated at £2.1 billion) to mitigate the chaos, at the ports and for customs.

So he will have to borrow an unknown amount to do this while the £ is plummeting, our credit rating is down graded, our international reputation is trashed, no one who we are expecting to agree trade deals with will trust a word we say, especially with our current administration, which, if you listen to the media has lost touch with reality. Just listen to the words coming out of Johnson's mouth.

I meant in the poltical sense. I don't think it helps the debate, the discussion of political outcomes, the weighing of options, the understanding the situation when either say predicts the end of the UK if they do or don't Brexit.

I don't really understand what you're saying. The Hard Brexiters (our government), say that we have a great future, one in which we are set free of the shackles of over regulation and protectionism. They point out that we will be free to make our own trade deals ( ye haa! )

I've just found out that you can download a podcast.

Sorry for the delay, I listen on DAB radio, so don't know how it works online. Essentially the majority of callers on that programme thought it quite likely that Scotland would leave the union with a no deal Brexit. The bit about Gibraltar was scary.

The show should be good this morning following the leadership debate last night

Yes, it is available online, or on Global Player app. Just google LBC UK. The pundit is James Obrian, 10.00-1.00 UK times Monday to Friday. He is a philosopher, so cuts the crap quite well.

Hi there, I share your pain. I'm listening to a great radio pundit on a phone in radio show, who has been asking for sometime, for someone to ring in and point about a benefit of leaving the EU and none has been forthcoming, a few people have tried, but it turns out they have been mislead and haven't questioned the assertion they have been sold.

Theresa May is speaking in Scotland right now warning of the split up of the Union in the case of a no deal Brexit. While having spent the last three years ignoring any Scottish representatives, and telling them to shut up and get lost. The hypocrisy.

"Britain will survive either way. That many on both sides couch it and so binary and end of Britain if the wrong choice is made isn't helping anybody."

I'm not here to help anyone, I'm here to discuss politics.

By the way, do you think Scotland will leave UK if there is a no deal Brexit? I'm listening to an interesting discussion on LBC about this at the moment.

Hi, I've been away for a while, what better way to get back into the forum than venting some Brexit frustration. "They"(the erg) are stuck in the 1960/70's, and seem to view Britain as if it needs saving again, like when Maggie "saved" us. To them Corbyn is a Marxist who will turn Britain into Venezuela, alongside the threat of a European super state controlled by the Germans, which we will inexorably become sucked into. They have pretty much seen their dreams of Britain once again independent on the high seas, with the world as its oyster, fade into impossibilities. And so in desperation to save us at the last minute, they will commit Harikari, and take the rest of us down with them.

I understand and agree with what you're saying in respect of cities, although from my perspective, it is specific to the US. Here in the U.K. The situation is quite different, every city can be reached within a day's travel. Certainly in the southern half of England, all the main cities are within a couple of hours, or so, travelling time from each other and many people live in the countryside between cities and commute into town. Indeed this is the trend for the more affluent, many cities are populated with people living in relative poverty, crammed into small houses, flats, council estates, where there is an air of hostility, dirt, lack of social infrastructure, sink estates etc. The cities and large towns are compact and restricted for space, as there are green belts around most urban areas and a severe housing and real estate crisis. Around each city are affluent commuter/dormitory towns and villages, in which any sense of community has been stripped out. With the indigenous/local population often swept out of the way and living in Council estates, or trailer parks, largely hidden from view. Country villages where everyone knows everyone else are rare and are mostly in the most provincial extremities of the country.
I think the situation on the ground is different in each country in the world due to geography and cultural development.

Quite, I use the analogy of tying the bull to the post in Zen Bhuddism,

Introductory books on Zen usually contain ten or six drawings called 'Ox-herding Pictures',
depicting a story of taming an unruly, wild bull. These were drawn by some Zen masters of old,
notably by Kaku-an and Jitoku of the twelfth century. The bull represents the mind and the
herdsman who tames the bull is the yogi, the person engaged in meditation.
It is significant that this simile of the taming of the bull goes back to very ancient times.
Discussing the import of the expression 'arannagato va rukkhamulagato va sunnagaragato va',
'gone to a forest or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty (quiet) house (room)',
occurring in the Satipatthana sutta, the Pali commentaries elaborate:
This bhikku's mind (i.e. the meditator's mind),/which was for a long time scattered among such
objects as visible forms (rupadisu arammanesu) does not like to enter into the path (street)
of a subject of meditation (kammatthana-vithi), but runs only into a wrong path like a chariot
yoked to an untamed (unruly) bull. Just as a herdsman, who desires to break in an untamed calf
grown up with all the milk it has drunk from the untamed (mother) cow, would remove it from
the cow, and having fixed a big post on a side would tie the .calf to it with a rope; and then
that calf of his, struggling this way and that, unable to run away, may sit down or lie down
close to the post; in the same way, this bhikku (i.e. the meditator), who desires to tame the
villainous mind grown up as a result of drinking for a long time of the pleasures of
sense-objects such as visible forms, and having gone to a forest or to the root of a tree or
an empty house, should tie it to the post of the object of the presence of mindfulness
(satipatthanarammanatthamba) by the rope of mindfulness (sati-yotta). Then the mind of his,
even after it has struggled this way and that, not finding the object previously indulged in,
unable to break the rope of mindfulness and to run away, sits down and lies down close to that
same object (of mindfulness) by way of neighbourhood concentration and attainment
concentration (upacarappanavasena).
Hence the ancients said:
Just as a man would tie to a post
A calf that should be tamed,
Even so here should one tie one's own mind
Tight to the object of mindfulness.

In this commentarial simile the herdsman fixes a post and ties the calf to it, whereas the
bull in the Zen pictures is tethered to a tree.
The two commentaries where this simile occurs are the Pali translations made by Buddhaghosa
Thera in the fifth century A.C. of the original Sinhala Commentaries which go back to the
third century B.C. The Ancients (porana), anonymous great masters, referred to in the passage
quoted above (and in numerous other places in the Pali Commentaries).

I know that feeling. Personally I like to value the mundane and the meek, with a big helping of humility. It makes it easy to avoid inflating the ego etc.

Are you practicing Yoga?

Can you give and example or explain what alternative criteria might be used?

The process of personal transfiguration. Such a process may require an uncoupling from interpersonal intellectual understanding provided by other people, in order to develop the mind of the individual in different ways.

But knowledge is justified...

How can astrology be justified? Beyond Jungian handwaving.

Perhaps the individual enquirer can achieve his/her own justification, for it to be accepted as knowledge, for themselves.

When I referred to an interest in such sources within spirituality, I took it for granted that alternative criteria may be considered.

Yes, fingers crossed on that one. I suspect we are going to see more and more outrage. Did you see Jeremy Corbyn's response to the budget on Wednesday? Gripping stuff. I refrained from linking to it here, but you can watch it by googling, Corbyns response to the budget YouTube, (it is about 23mins long).

You're a lot more vocal than usual. Somehow I doubt it will last.

Yeah, that's right, Simplisticus

I suggest you look in the mirror before reading books by the cover.

But how? Because folk think it pretty?

So as to access, knowledge, or knowing of nature, other than what is provided by current intellectual knowledge and teaching.

Have you noticed that throughout our history there is a cycle in which groups of people sieze power in some way and use this to accumulate and hoard wealth from the population. Then when it becomes out of hand the mob arrives at their door with pitch forks. The mob seizes back the power and wealth and the cycle then gradually repeats itself.

Now that we are in a global capitalist system, the cycle seems to be happening again. Can we somehow defuse the situation, or are we going to have to grab the pitch forks?