• Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    of course it’s a publicity stunt, I get that. But how can anyone take it seriously. What could Greta possibly have to contribute intellectually

    Yes it's a publicity stunt for the issues they are concerned with. There is no need for any intellectual content, the intellectual argument has already been won. It is simply one of many facets of a seismic shift going on in the global psyche.

    On the same programme I heard Mark Carney, the outgoing governor of the Bank of England, soon to become the UN special envoy on climate change, warning investors that now is not the time to invest in fossil fuel rich enterprises, as such assets will become worthless in the near future. And that enterprises involved in Green technologies are the best places to invest.
  • Why We Can't solve Global Warming
    ↪Bitter Crank
    Unfortunately I feel powerless, even if I were to shout it from the roof tops, or glue myself to the Houses of Parliament, no one would listen, because of the intense media overload we endure every day.

    I do what I can personally, I don't fly, I heat my house mostly with wood I have grown myself and am researching an appropriate ground source heat pump to install. My vehicle is a problem, I expect it will be a number of years before I can have an electric vehicle. As for products with a carbon footprint, apart from food, I mainly recycle, or use secondhand products. I can't remember the last time I bought an item of new clothing, well within reason.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    Interestingly, on the radio I am listening to right now, is Greta talking to Sir David Attenborough, a testament to how important this issue is. I hear him say, that for politicians, they only care about tomorrow and the next day. When are we going to stop burying our heads in the sand?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    Secondly, you really should consider who you might be addressing, what age they might be. For me and my age group

    Interesting point, this is something I have considered. All the people I know who are sceptical of climate change, or the appropriate response to the warnings from climate scientists, are over 70 years of age. It is about 75% of them. All the people I know under the age of 70 are fully onboard with the agenda as suggested by Bitter Crank, for example. Notable are every person I know under 20 years of age.
    Indeed right across Europe, a young person who is sceptical on these issues is a great rarity. I expect, but don't know, that there are a portion of the younger age group in the US, who are sceptical for some reason. Is it the case do you think, that there is more scepticism on this in the US than elsewhere?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    I can't quite work out what you are denying. You are both saying that humans are adaptable and resourceful, while also saying that they are not going to make the necessary changes and that the scientists (the ones who are meant to be most serious about this) are squabbling amongst themselves and ostracising themselves and that you are somehow going to throw the baby out with the bath water over this, while also still being concerned about the issue.

    Welcome to human nature, this is what we are like, we can barely organise a piss up in a brewery. The bottom line is we need to shift from fossil fuels to renewables pronto and then start trying to work out how to shuttle folk around the place with these renewables, because they won't want to stop doing that.

    Oh and in the meantime try not to go to war with each other (this includes trade wars), or profiteer, or exploit each other to much, as that will impede our progress.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett

    The US project Iceworm has become exposed from the ice cap now. It turns out that the whole ice cap moves, flows like a glacier, which is why they abandoned the station in 1963. It adjusts to the pressures, or lack of them around the periphery. So provided the ice continues to melt around the edge it will surely collapse. Also the Arctic Ocean is warming at over twice the rate of elsewhere due to less reflectivity from less ice. A positive chain reaction, it looks like we will soon find the north west passage after all.

    I predict in 5 years the ice cap will be discovered to have breached far quicker than predictions allowed for.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    We'll be socialist swine by then. The Capitalists will have ripped us off and gone their bunkers by that point.
  • The "Fuck You, Greta" Movement
    ↪god must be atheist
    In the UK, it is the government who provided financial incentives for the installation of onshore wind turbines, they then removed them and stopped giving permission for them to be built. They have now supported offshore wind, but they are heavily involved in where permission is given for them to be built. They also provided financial incentives for small scale and domestic solar generation, then stopped the incentive just as it was taking off, putting a number of suppliers out of business and depriving users of the incentive they were promised. They also decide on the procurement of nuclear power. So in the UK politicians play the primary role in how our power generation is provided and how green it is. Indeed these politicians have been promising action on climate change, riding on the tails of the popularity of Greta.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    Its weird isn't it that all these folk like me are coming up with this domesday cult ourselves individually and yet the message is identical each time. Oh I know why, because it's informed by science. There have been a number of scientific warnings over the last few weeks that the Greenland ice cap is now going to collapse, even if we stopped emitting CO2 tomorrow, it will still melt. Have you put your house on the market yet? I suppose you could build your ivory tower upwards as the water rises.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    Well I would advise you to sell up before the market confidence in sea level real estate disappears. I have recently moved to 56m and now I'm confident that my grandchildren will be able to sell for a good price, infact an inflated price because no one will buy anything at sea level, so demand above about 30m will increase.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    Don't refer to things like "runaway climate change." What is that? It appears to be unnecessary fear mongering.

    Perhaps an irreversible cascade of greenhouse gas emissions is more appropriate. I expect to the folk on the ground the distinction would be of little concern.
    Yes the world will be very different in 500 years. Yes there will be a lot of pain and bloodshed aling the way. That's enough.
    Perhaps we should spare a thought for those millions, or billions, who will suffer, or have no hope of leading the comfortable lives we lead. Indeed perhaps we should be shedding a tear for the millions suffering today, admittedly not due to climate change, but rather man's inhumanity to man. Somehow I don't see the gathering climactic extremes we are beginning to experience helping these people, only exacerbating it further.

    And when the rich and powerful, the exploiters, wake up and realise that they need to prepare their bunkers. What of the billions, who are currently just about managing, then?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    Both

    And what is the elevation of your house (assuming you are a home owner)?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    Yes

    Is that because of human resilience in adversity, or that climate change won't be that bad after all?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    "Humanity's eviction notice"
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    So what is your synopsis?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    So you are optimistic that we can somehow pull through without a collapse of civilisation and a return to medieval feuding warlords. I would like to share your optimism and look ahead to a bright future, but I look at the results of the climate talks in Madrid a couple of weeks ago and the rise in populism ( the PM in Australia, or Bolsonaro in Brazil) and I fear we are hiding our heads in the sand.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    I didn't think that you hadn't talked about, rather you had not mentioned the elephant in the room. Also again you didn't mention what I referred to. Conflict in a land of rapidly diminishing resources. In an attempt to feed themselves and secure clean drinking water dense populations will effectively commit Hari kari. It might be interesting to consider what exactly might tip the balance. I presume you are aware of how quickly caring, loving, compassionate citizens can turn into ruthless killing machines (forgive the dramatisation, it just sounded to good to miss).

    Would it be exploitative billionaires using populism to extract large amounts of money out of a country,(UK for example) causing civil unrest, so they can hide away in some lair.

    Would it be mass migration on the borders of northern countries by people fleeing unbearably hot fire ravaged tropical countries.

    Some massive catastrophic event.

    As for your questions, I would carry on as normal, perhaps have a few sips of my favourite tipple and adopt the brace position. People like all other animals simply relax and accept the inevitable when faced with unavoidable destruction. Rather like drowning it is, a pleasant way to go.

    Ahh, I see you and Brett saw me going overboard. I don't think I did, where might we differ?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    Is it a healthy symptom? In what way might you regard it as healthy and therefore constructive, not for you alone, to maintaining a functioning society?
    I'm not qualified to give a health check on the US. But I have a sense that things have gone a bit awry since the development of globalisation. I can understand why Lif3r wants to surround himself with guns in a country awash with guns.

    Also you seem to be one of those posters who cherrypick things to dispute, or criticise and yet I notice you have kept your powder dry.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Brett
    So the people in question will move into these inland cities. I think the residents might have something to say about that. At the same time if some of the scientific predictions which will affect the growing of crops make it difficult to grow food, while these people are moving house, that might be problematic. Perhaps in countries like the ones we live in will be able to adjust ok, but many of the developing countries will have big problems.

    Warlords are the natural socio-cultural state when a civilisation collapses, is it not?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    But you are attempting to undermine my position while not engaging. What's that about?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    Surely all I need to do is add one other factor, which I was hinting at when I asked the question about where do the people who live in cities, which will find themselves below sea level, go, and what will they eat? ( perhaps you can answer this question now). The other factor is human conflict.

    As to what we're going to do about it, well we can hope that world leaders will get together soon and start to formulate some plans. It's not looking very promising at the moment, but once there is money to be made in the green economy things might improve. More worrying though is the lack of foresight in regards to sea level rise. There are still many sea level developments continuing, along with building in flood plains. I wonder when real estate values will start falling on low lying property.

    As I explained earlier, primates evolved at a time when the earth was so warm there were no polar ice caps. It's not going to get warmer than that. What did you think was going to happen? The oceans would just boil away and the earth would turn into a small star or something?
    Have you considered how easily a civilisation can fall into a free for all between warlords? There is plenty of evidence in the historical record. Any high tech development, or industry will be straight out of the window. We will be straight back to a medieval lifestyle if we're lucky. Large areas will probably descend into waring states like Syria, or Somalia, or worse.

    So we can probably agree that large numbers of people will die, there will be great suffering and injustice. Experiences which don't lend well for mutual cooperation. There is in fact as I'm sure you are aware, great suffering already, around the world and climate change has barely begun to affect the environment so far.

    So we are going back to a primitive existence in short order, unless drastic action is taken soon to reduce global warming and it may be to late already. Agreed?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Bitter Crank
    It seems to me that the greatest threat certainly following the first great catastrophe, or economic collapse is from other humans. There will be a race to the bottom through conflict and a desperate fight for resources. Followed by roaming battle hardened warlords. If we're lucky the nuclear warheads won't have been triggered. Although nuclear facilities like power stations would likely go off.

    I don't know how much Anthropology has caught up with this idea, so this is only speculation. It looks to me that during a previous catastrophic global flooding most of humanity was wiped out in a stroke. Leaving small pockets surviving at altitude, certainly in the Himalayas, possibly the Ethiopian highlands etc. This may have happened more than once and is talked about in ancient mythology. These isolated groups obviously survived and grew into modern humanity.

    I see this extinction event as another such catastrophe, although the initial conditions are unique on this occasion. There are mass populations which there weren't before, deadly weapons and more critically I would think, a mass extinction of species due to a sudden shift in climatic conditions. So who knows, it looks like uncharted territory.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Bitter Crank
    Agreed, there are other tipping processes which have been identified, I'm no expert though. One I was thinking of is the acidification of the oceans causing the calcium carbonate on the sea bed to dissolve, which then increases the acidification. There are large quantities of carbon down there.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪TheMadFool

    Yes, I agree about survivalism. Your suggestion that such behaviour is only necessitated by great global catastrophes, is I fear over optimistic. Such events would probably bring about the extinction of humanity, or a reduction to a few hundred, or thousand of the most tenacious survivors.

    It will require only small changes in climate, in the direction of warming, to result in a fall of civilisation and a return to a primitive human existence.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    oh, so we're here again. I tell you what, if you answer my question then I'll answer yours. Or is your question only rhetorical?
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪TheMadFool
    There are many people in the US who think the strategy adopted by Lif3r is appropriate for life in the US in its current state, irrespective of any worries about climate change. It's a symptom of the socio-cultural state of the nation.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Brett
    Is climate change not happening then? I'm happy to be corrected, indeed it would be great news. I have cut down on flying and heat my house with firewood I grow myself. But if I don't need to do these things it would great?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    You mention that permafrost release has happened before and that climate change might result in a period of rapid evolution. Both which would develop over longer periods than those in which the affairs of humans typically occur. Or in other words, humanity could easily revert to a Stone Age level of development in which perhaps 99% of the population has died within perhaps 200 years. Whereas these two developments could take thousand, or millions of years to play out.

    I accept that "runaway climate change" is a vague concept with varying definitions. Also that it is unlikely that human activity would result in a permanent runaway state like on Venus, but it could easily become runaway for a few hundred thousand, or millions of years.

    My source is broadcasts by David Attenborough, although I have heard most of these concepts from many sources.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    Yes I'm aware of the disconnect on timescales. Are you aware of the predictions of tipping points? Where climate change tips a balance in certain systems resulting in extra emissions from sources of greenhouse gasses stored in the ground, or sea.

    If we don't act now, future generations will find themselves in irreversible (in the short term) circumstances. A proportion of humanity would be able to cope with this (although many might die along the way), but if the mass extinction event goes to far, it won't be pleasant.

    Also I don't think we can predict where the line is which we could cross resulting in runaway climate change.

    Without wanting to dampen your cheery mood ( excuse the pun), sea levels are already set to rise between 10 and 50 metres over the next 2-300 years(difficult to estimate the rate of this rise). So most of the large cities around the world will be unliveable. So where are those billions of people going to go, and what will they eat?
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪frank
    Many would like to reduce emissions now, but it may prove more difficult for them than it would if everyone did it at the same time. But if the right people don't choose to, that won't happen.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪Athena
    I live about 25 miles from Sizewell B, Sizewell A is there too, it was decommissioned a long time ago and I expect there are some nasty surprises hidden inside. Sizewell C is due to be started about now. I know a number of people doing conservation work on the site. Looking at Chernobyl, nature is getting along just fine in the contaminated areas. I think I heard that some folk have moved back in, but it might just be a rumour.

    And looking to the survivors, Mad Max looks about right, with more gazolene than I would expect. We would be back to a feudal system quite quickly I expect, but with some serious turmoil and blood shed during the intervening years. The question is, just how far we will fall before it bottoms out.

    I am an antique dealer, I have reservations about the market recovering following the recent fall of the market.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    ↪iolo
    I agree in terms of civilisation, but a few humans will survive like they did last time and the time before that etc.. ( we can't say how many times, but I expect more than historians think). The trick is to somehow pass some knowledge on to the survivors to help them along, so they don't have to go right back to the Stone Age and start all over again.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪Tim3003
    I agree, but a rapid change in activity can have a heavy carbon footprint itself through having to change infrastructure etc. But I think it is necessary to do it.
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    ↪SophistiCat
    That's encouraging. I fear the very populous countries and South American countries won't change course quickly enough. Many are struggling to cope with their socio economic circumstances already. China is moving in the right way, but they have a reputation for stripping resources and dumping carbon heavy products into the global economy.

    I have high hopes for Australia finally coming on board.
  • Humanity's Eviction Notice
    You might mock Lif3r's solution to the issue, but can you deny his predictions of the climatic conditions, or the human behaviour when it starts to happen?

    Unfortunately his bunker mentality isn't going to help him for long, you only need to watch Mad Max to see that.

    There are two things that interest me here, when will real estate values at sea level begin to drop? And how the super rich think they are going to insulate themselves from the mayhem?

    Firstly, I give the real estate values maybe another 5 years before the penny drops and secondly it would be interesting to know if there are any super rich building bunkers in mountains anywhere yet?
    Perhaps a mountain range somewhere like Hawaii, or New Zealand. I'd give South Georgia a go, but I'm not rich enough, but I have recently moved uphill, I'm now at 56m above sea level.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Brett
    Apologies, I am a political cartoonist and figures like Trump and Johnson are inviting my response.
  • Brexit
    ↪Tim3003

    Yes Johnson has already called for a charge to see your GP, or call an ambulance. This should be a sharp petard, but it can only become one if the media promote it, most of them won't, it will be "nothing to see here". But sooner or later an event will happen which will pierce the media curtain and they will turn on him.

    Thanks for pointing out the climate change thread, I could find one before, I'll give it a look.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪ZzzoneiroCosm
    Capital-P Politicians aren't the only politicians. Con-artists are politicians too: power is their art and their science.

    Trump is the consummate con-artist-politician. A born carnival barker.

    After P. T. Barnum: this is Trump's circus and you - Nosferatu - are its sucker.
    IMG-8965.jpg
  • Is halting climate change beyond man's ability?
    But what are we going to do, just sit back and enjoy the ride?

    Here in the UK we have a solution, just leave. Globalisation is controlling our powers of self determination, so I propose we leave the planet and leave then to sort it out themselves. Just get it done.
  • Brexit
    ↪Tim3003
    What about " there will be no checks in the Irish Sea"? Or a five week prorogation seven weeks before a crash out of the EU is "its business as usual"? I could go on. It's certainly fast and loose while vehemently claiming that its normal behaviour.

    About working cross party, before this administration I would have agreed with you, although Theresa May wouldn't have been much better. But now, no way. The government has demonstrated that they will sell anyone under the bus to keep power. Not simply to remain in No10, but to rubbish the opposition at every opportunity so that they can never be seen as a viable government.

    Regarding the NHS, this is what I was discussing with my son earlier,

    The trouble is if Johnson gets into a pickle while negotiating trade deals with the EU and the US at the same time (which seems inevitable), he will reach a point of desperation where the stakes become so high that his government becomes at risk. When he fears this he will play fast and loose and the hard nosed capitalists in the US will get their foot in the door. We will become a piggy in the middle between the US and the EU. The US will see us as a lever into the EU and the EU will see us as a shield against the US. This is when Johnson and his right wing backers will bring out the populist tactics again. As long as we have the Labour Party up and running again with an outspoken leader, they can be ready to pick up the pieces when it collapses.

    There is an interesting film made by John Pilger on this, I will link it later.
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