The prediction function is not a detached function of our brain like the visual cortex, it is the fundamental function of the entire brain. It fundamentally is our brain. — Christoffer

Predictions are overtly conscious and intentional on the events, movements of objects or functional processes which are uncertain in their results. It sounds illogical and unsound to suggest that our brain keeps making predictions on everything it sees, just because it is their nature to do so.

I don't see how this isn't answered? How we perceive non-existing objects has already been answered. It's a hallucinatory flow of predictions detached from sensory inputs and composed by a collage of previous experiences and concepts of objects that we have stored in memory. The nature of them is that they are hallucinations detached from sensory information or minorly influenced by it while imagining or hallucinating in an awaken state. Internally they differentiate to existing objects in that they are pure memory information formed into prediction calculations by the brain that detaches from sensory grounding, transforming memory representations of real objects into a malleable conceptualized mental model that can be reshaped internally. During dreaming, this process happens without our ability to control it, since the flow of this collage of memories flowing together is influenced by the brain's process of fusing long term memory with the new short term memories. — Christoffer

Prior to your seeing something from your memory, you must be conscious of the content of your memory, or know what you are remembering about. You cannot see something from your memory, if you cannot remember what they were.

Seeing hallucinatory images from one's past memories is what is happening in one's dreams doesn't quite assuredly explain the nonexistent objects appearing in dreams, if the dreamer has never seen, encountered or experienced the object in his / her life ever.

And the third part is the prediction function which they don't even include. — Christoffer

Predictions usually happen when the result of some events, movements of objects or processes are unknown to the predictor. But in visual perception of a cup of coffee, result of the perception is irrelevant with the unknown-ness or uncertainty. This tells us prediction is not relevant in most daily visual perceptions. It looks more so, in seeing the objects in dreams.

The OP is also about "non-existing objects" and existing objects. How do we perceive non-existing objects, and what are the nature of non-existing objects? Do non-existing objects exist? If they do, how can they be non-existing? If they don't, how could we see them? Are seeing a reliable evidence for existence of objects? If not, what are the evidence of something to exist?

How are they different from existing objects?

In essence, when you see a cup of coffee, it forms a constant stream of information that holds in place and time that shape and form while your memory has categorized what a cup of coffee from past experiences and the interplay between them forms a hallucinatory state of predictions about the next step in time we experience. — Christoffer

Do you mean that we never see a real cup of coffee, but images of constant steam of information from your memory, which is a hallucinatory state of predictions?

I recall debating on this topic before. The direct realists would say, you are seeing a cup of coffee in front of you, and indirect realist would say, you are seeing a sense data of a cup of coffee which seems sounding similar to your suggestion.

You say it is a scientific facts, but is it tested, and proven fact? Or would it be just another hypotheses how seeing works?

A very interesting and detailed post on the topic. Thank you. I will read it over, and get back to you, when I have some ideas about your points. The images in the posts are very interesting too. Later~

If Hegel and Kant used the term, "see" when talking about dreams they are misusing terms too. You seem to be making a plea to authority here, when it is just as likely that Hegel and Kant could be wrong, especially when they did not have access to the scientific knowledge we have now. — Harry Hindu

I didn't say Hegel's idea was absolute truth. I found Hegel's term "inner impressions" for seeing images in dreams interesting. In Hume impressions come from the external world objects. When the impressions come into your mind, it becomes ideas. There is no such a thing as "inner impressions".

You did not see a tiger. You dreamed a tiger. This is how you are misusing terms. — Harry Hindu

When I was in sleep, I was seeing a tiger. When I was awake, I recalled the dream of a tiger. They are both images, not words or sounds.

But then, I just don't understand what you mean by these comments. Reason and truth are not the same thing. But they are connected. You seem to recognize that, but then deny it. I must be missing something. — Ludwig V

I think I have tried to clarify the points enough from my side. There is nothing much more for me to add here. You seem to keep going around circle of deviation. I will leave you to it.
I am bowing out from this thread. All the best.

Ok. Yah. Splice that sentence from our entire exchange, and you and I agree generally on what Mind is and how it's different from Body, though it emerges therefrom. — ENOAH

:up: :cool:

I think the consistency of normal experience and our ability to compare to perceptive fabrications (e.g., hallucinations, dreams, etc.) are evidence that something normally is exciting your senses; but what that thing is in-itself is impossible to know. It very well could be a mere idea (like ontological idealists say) or a concrete object (like materialists will say) or an object (like physicalists will say) or something unimaginable. — Bob Ross

Yes, this is it. The thing in-itself which is impossible to know or something unimaginable is what we hope to find out.

I'm not sure where you're going with the OP question, what you are aiming for, but there's not much more to it than what I described. Our experience is an hallucination bound by a flow of sensory data. Cutting that flow makes us hallucinate freely and our memorized concepts start to merge into new forms, shapes and concepts. The combinations of concepts stored in our memory has an almost infinite amount of combinations. A white tiger included. — Christoffer

Yet again, isn't Hallucination totally different way of seeing non existent objects? You see images of the objects which are existent or non-existent in the external world, but the cause of the seeing is the abnormal state of your brain due to the chemically induced condition? I am not too sure on the details of technicality of hallucination on why and how it occurs. But that is my idea on it. Anyway, it is not the OPs interest here.

Asking and discussing on seeing non-existence images in dreams and also daily life could tell us more on our perception how it works, which could allow us to explore on the way mind works.

If you think it has no more scope of discussion than talking about hallucination and making predictions, then maybe you are not interested in the topic of the workings of mind and perception.

It is true that one can believe something on rational grounds, and be wrong. But if you are wrong, you didn't know it. Knowledge cannot be wrong. If someone believes that it will rain on Tuesday, and it doesn't, they didn't know that it will rain on Tuesday. — Ludwig V

Checking out you knew or not, that is the work of reason. Reason itself is not truth.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I didn't modify your post at all. I simply presented to you my own definition of intelligence, which is different from yours. — Ludwig V

It is a very peculiar way of putting down your own definition on someone else's writing, making out as if it was written by someone else.

If reason cannot deliver truth, then it cannot verity my belief or knowledge. — Ludwig V

Does reason deliver truth? It sounds not making sense. The sentence "Reason delivers truth." sounds not correct. Reason brings truth to you at your door step? Like a Amazon delivery van delivers what you have ordered from Amazon? I am not sure if that was what you meant. Hope not. You find out truth or falsity on something using reason.

Clearly, we have different concepts of rationality. If rationality has nothing to do with truth, what is the point of it? How does it differ from reading tea leaves of consulting an astrologer? — Ludwig V

Rationality is a method to finding truth, but rationality itself is not truth. We do have different ideas not just on rationality, but also truth. All the best.

Which is a good explanation for our cognitive biases becoming more rigid the more we focus on just information that aligns with what we already know. And why broadening our knowledge is key to becoming truly wise. — Christoffer

A detailed and good post on the topic. Thank you. However, the OP was more interested in discussing and find out the nature of the visual images we see in our dreams, rather than how dreams work, and why we dream.

Clearly what we see in our dreams are images of the objects in the external world. But some of the images are the ones that we never came across in daily lives, or have anything to do with our experience and memories. The white tiger I have seen my dream for example, was a clear vivid image of a tiger, but I have never seen it in my entire life in real world.

So where does it come from? How is it different from the images we see in daily life from the real objects? Are they same type of images? Then how it does not have its real existence of the object?

It was more the epistemological angle the OP was trying to orient the discussions.

Imagine imagining something when you don't have the world imposing itself on your senses and mind. The imagining would seem real, like your dream does. The dream would take the place of the world precisely because the world is absent when you are asleep. — Harry Hindu

I saw a tiger in my dream. I do vividly remember the image of the tiger, so that I can even draw it on a piece of paper how it looked. It is a visual experience, which is similar to the visual perception you have in your daily life.

It has nothing to do with making predictions or imagining something for the reasons I have put down on my previous post. Please read it again, if you haven't.

You're not seeing anything when you dream. Seeing is the process of using your eyes to take in light. The existence of light is a necessary component of seeing. Can you see anything when the lights are out? You are simply misusing terms. — Harry Hindu

Hegel and Kant have written about the images we see in our dreams as "inner impressions" which are different type of impressions coming from the external world.

I have not used any vague terms or fancy words in my posts, but just said seeing images in dreams are different type of images we see when we are awake in daily life.

You seem to be misusing the word "misuse" without knowing what the word "misuse" actually means.

Doesn't "verify" mean something like to demonstrate the truth or accuracy of something, as by the presentation of evidence? In that case, we must be talking about truth. Though you are right that it is possible to believe something on rational grounds and be wrong. — Ludwig V

Truth emerges when your belief or knowledge is examined and verified by reason. Reason itself cannot deliver truth as you claim.

You should trace back what you said in this thread. You said that your belief and knowledge are rational because you believe and know something. I said, no it cannot be rational or irrational until they are verified. Then you deviated from the point, claiming that rationality delivers truth. I am not sure what that means. You need to give more elaboration on that point what it means.

We were not talking about truth, and truth as a property of belief or knowledge has nothing to do with rational thinking. Your knowledge on something can be rational, but still be wrong.

Intelligence means knowing something, or being able to do something in coherent way. It is not same as The ability to acquire, understand, and use knowledgesomething, which are what rational thinking does. — Corvus

I thought it was something like the ability to acquire, understand, and use knowledge. That would make it something different from knowledge but more about how to acquire knowledge. — Ludwig V

You have modified the content of my post with your own writing. That is not what I wrote in my post on what intelligence means. It would help clarifying the points if you could go over what intelligence means, and what reasoning means in general terms, and think about the difference between the two.

I'd like to. Please show me, where is that organ Mind? — ENOAH

It is not a physical organ, but conceptual and functional organ. All your thoughts, feelings, emotions and senses i.e. the bundle of perceptions are your organ of mind, which emerged from your brain.
You cannot see it of course. It is conceptual and functional, hence even Hume couldn't see it, and he had to conclude the existence of self doesn't exist. There is only a bundle of perception when looking at the idea of self.

I will do some thinking for my reply to your other points. Later~

Rationality is what delivers the truth, so there can be no question whether rationality delivers truth. It would be like trying to measure the standard metre in Paris in order to find out whether it is a metre long. — Ludwig V

We were not talking about truth here. We were talking about whether your knowledge or beliefs were rational or irrational. For that, you need to verify your knowledge or beliefs if they are not from deductive reasoning.

H'm that's a bit quick. What about people like Aquinas or Descartes who believed that they had rational arguments for belief in God? That's quite different from belief from blind faith. True, most people (but not all) believe their arguments were not valid. But they certainly weren't blind faith.
There are theologians who take as their starting-point the "presupposition" that the Bible is the word of God. It has something of the status of an axiom. Something posited as true, but not capable of being proved or disproved. Their theology follows by rational process. Sometimes rational thinking has irrational elements. — Ludwig V

Aquinas and Descartes were the people who used rational thinking to prove the existence of God. They were not the religious authorities who punished the general public based on the faiths and religious social codes.

My problem is that I've never been able to grasp a clear meaning for the term "intelligence". So I mostly ignore it, especially in philosophy. — Ludwig V

Intelligence means knowing something, or being able to do something in coherent way. It is not same as reflecting, analyzing, criticizing and proving something, which are what rational thinking does.

What it is like for you to make a prediction and to imagine things when you are awake? — Harry Hindu

Seeing images in your dreams and making predictions are totally different things happening in your mind. They are not the same activities. Seeing something is visual. Predicting something is imagining. There are two types of prediction. One by your hunch, and the other by inductive reasoning. Both activities involve your intention, will and inference.

Seeing visual images in your dreams is random events happening without any of above. Plus it is visual operation with no imagination, guessing or reasoning.

You just proved that you're wrong. You combined letters above, resulting in sentences. :up: — night912

I didn't combine anything at all. I just chose words to make up sentences. Anyway, it is not the same thing as seeing the images in your dreams.

So it seems that even if I believe my perceptions without any grounds, I can justify them - that is, provide reasons (grounds) for believing them - after I come to believe them. — Ludwig V

You could, but if it is irrational, then others will not agree with your justification. Being rational means also it has to be objective. Your problem seem to be confusion between intelligence and knowledge with reasoning and being rational. They are not the same.

Mind craves an afterlife because the mechanism of the subject creates the illusion of continuing. I think, harsh as it is a pill to swallow, the so called subject doesn't really exist, and as for we tge body, it dies and is reborn in tge incessant present. If we want to put it into religious terms, There's God's gift to us, the eternal present, life, our fall is ignoring life and opting for knowledge and our own world that we built with it. — ENOAH

It is a bit strange that you seem to acknowledge the existence of God, and creation of the universe and humans by the God. But at the same time you deny the existence of souls and spirits, and brush aside death as the final page of the chapter for the beings.

Souls and spirits are the essential elements in most religions. They are not for those non-believers. But if anyone is religious, then souls and spirits are the important existence which are real as the mind and body in the real world.

The body is plainly real in every sense of the word real. You're offering that in your statement.

All of the enumerated things mind can do are what we (mind) ascribes to itself as proof of its reality 'beyond' the physical body. But these are just functions being carried out by a system of stimulus and response. Just happens the functions have evolved to act in such a richly complex and sophisticated way, with a narrative form, mechanisms like the ones we call logic, grammar, reason, etc., that the body observing these functions and responding, triggers good feelings when tge system classifies itself as "real" — ENOAH

Your problem seems to stem from conflating mind and body at times, and then looking at mind and body separate entities as you go along. Constancy and coherence are lacking in your argument.

Mind and body are the same. Mind is is a part of the body. You are born in your body with little or no mind, then as your body grows, your mind emerges from the body. If you look at the mind as one of the organs of the body, then things get clearer.

Body has different parts, and the different parts do different things. Mind and body work together to function properly. If you had no eyes, then you won't have sights. If you have no ears, you won't hear. If you had no mind being unconscious, you will not see or hear even if you had eyes and ears. It is that simple.

We are a conceited ape. The conceit is the illusion that our imaginations are special beyond their function (yes, that is impressive) but somehow as an eternal truth — ENOAH

Yes, humans have logic, grammar and reasoning, which are handy for delving into more sophisticated tasks for survival in nature and the real world. All other animals which are non-human lack the capacity, and even humans have different levels in logic, grammar and reasoning. It is just a fact, nothing to do with conceit.

You can call humans as apes, because they share some biological mechanisms in life. They both have to be born, eat and drink, sleep, get old and die eventually. But that is where the common features exist and end as beings with the biological bodies. But they are not the same, when you look into their capacity of minds i.e. logic, grammar and reasoning. Saying that they are the same sounds over simplification of the beings in categorization trying to brush them under the same carpet for some peculiar reason.

unwittingly giving it lofty designations like spirit and soul, imbuing it not just with reality, but a higher reality, eternity; — ENOAH

If mind believes in God, after life, resurrection, the heaven and hell etc, then it needs to postulate the existence of soul or spirit, so that it will unite with divine when it dies. We could say that soul or spirit is a postulated entity for a mind, like Thing-in-Itself is a postulated entity in Kant's system.

I agree that we have gotten it all wrong. We have privileged the Mind (unique to humans), unwittingly giving it lofty designations like spirit and soul, imbuing it not just with reality, but a higher reality, eternity; relegating the flesh to a category shared with 'animals' as if we are superior to 'them', and worse, relegating it as the source of evil. Yet, prima facie, any animal born into this world has no 'cause' to question it's reality nor that of the natural Universe. Then why do we question reality? Because the 'we' doing the questioning is not our bodies, but this process of constructing and projecting (emerging out of our real imaginations--a thing we presumably share with primates, elephants, and sea mammals for e.g.) which has developed over generations, is transmitted with socialization, and has displaced our natures with--admittedly very functional--fictions. — ENOAH

I am not sure if the emergent mind is not real.  It is utterly real in that it knows, observes, feels, predicts and feels.  How can the mind be not real? 

Enoah has a mind and body.  The body has a head, arms, feet and hands etc etc.  The mind can feel, know, observe, recall, predict, reason ... etc etc.

The mind is a part of the body, which is invisible not only to other minds, but even to the mind itself.  But it is as real as the body so long as it operates with its expected functions.
Mind dies when the body dies, because it is a part of the body.

Mind asks about the world and also about reality, because it is one of the nature / functions of mind i.e. curiosity.

Saying other animals are not the same as humans in reasoning is not placing the animals into the lower level out of arrogance of the human mind.  It is just telling the truth and reality out of observations on nature and the world.  It would be like saying the Sun is brighter than the Moon.  It is just stating the fact, not making the Sun any superior to the Moon, or trying to make the Sun feel proud.

I think this matters because I think a democracy needs to be clear about the difference between fact and fiction. A democracy must have education for rational thinking based on facts and understand what this has to do with morality. If we believe a God made us closer to angels than animals, or if we believe we have evolved along with the rest of the animals, it really matters. That is the center of our understanding of reality and decisions that must be based on reality. — Athena

You should be very careful not to be deceived by the word democracy. It could mean, that you must do anything irrational to justify the word. It would be wiser to stay critical and analytical on these fancy words which can be hollow inside, but can force people to irrational actions and thoughts.

600 years ago it might have been rational to believe the Bible is the word of God, there was an Eden, an angry God could and would punish people, but given what we know today, is that belief rational? Arguing the Bible is the word of God may be a rational thing to do if we have no standard for "rational" meaning a fact that can be validated. And if we believe rational means facts that can be validated then the belief that the Bible is the word of God, is not rational thinking. A definition of "rational" that treats fantasy as equal to thought based on valid facts is problematic, isn't it? — Athena

Religious beliefs always have been from the blind faith rather than anything to do with being rational or irrational. And at the time, when the religious authorities were ruling the society, it was more of the ruthless mad social system, which enforced people with the barbaric punishments rather than being rational or irrational. People had no options but abide by the system out of fear, rather than being rational.

Why does it matter whether our beliefs, knowledge, actions or perceptions were rational or irrational? Is it because that is how we know that they are true - or, in the case of actions, justified? — Ludwig V

Any reasonable person would want his / her beliefs, knowledge, actions or perceptions to be rational than irrational. No one wants to have beliefs, knowledge, actions or perceptions which are irrational by human nature. That is why it does matter for your beliefs, actions, knowledge or perceptions to be rational.

That's basically what amalgamate means. Combining image 1 with image 2 results in an image that is neither image 1 or 2. So, the answer is obviously, yes. — night912

Combining image 1 and 2? doesn't make sense to me. How do you combine images? Combine something means mixing something. To mix something you must add 1 substance to the other substance, which is only possible with liquid or powder stuff. If you put down image 1 to image 2, then image 2 will be invisible blocked by the image1. What is going on here?

Someone who isn't Elon Musk with Bill Gates, Taylor Swift or Madonna — night912

You were talking about the images, but suddenly now you are talking a person called someone?

To come up with a new image. — night912

I don't. Do you? Why do you want to come up with a new image?

The same type of thing you experience when you make predictions, goals, solve problems, etc. Imagining is part of the process that we use to make predictions and solve problems. — Harry Hindu

Seeing a tiger attacking you in your dream is "seeing something" i.e. seeing an image and motion. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with making predictions, solving problems etc.

Yes. I believe that too. Only the emergent mind is not real like the body is. — ENOAH

Why is the emergent mind not real? What do you mean by "real" and "not real"?

You surprise me. I thought that was what you were suggesting. It's good to know that I was wrong. — Ludwig V

Asking for grounds or justification for your belief, knowledge, actions and perception is not Formal Logic. It is just a rational thinking process for finding out if your beliefs, knowledge, actions or perceptions were rational or irrational.

If it did shut down completely you wouldn't be able to wake up to loud (and possibly dangerous) noises in the world. — Harry Hindu

Seeing something means there was an object in the physical world, which came into your retina in the form of lights, and activated your neurons and converted into images, which was transferred into your brain. But in the case of seeing an object in your dreams, you have no external object, which causes all the seeing process.

So what are you actually seeing, when you are seeing a tiger trying to attack you in your dream?

That is exactly my point; there is no real "you" and "your" body is not "yours". The question dualists need to consider is why a human body wouldn't be itself without the constructions and projections we classify as a separate entity and call mind. Why is a lizard still a lizard without thought and language, but only humans have a soul? Sure, we claim that God prefers us and gave us a soul. But I think we've grown up enough to stop clinging to that. — ENOAH

So you must be an atheist and materialist, is it correct? If you are, of course that would be your view.

But there are spiritual and religious folks who believe that body means nothing, and souls and mind are the true selves. They would also likely believe eternal life, after life or resurrection into the material world (in case of buddhists), existence of God, heaven and hell ... etc.

In my view, body is the precondition of mind, and mind is a part of body. Body can lose some of its parts. You see some folks with no leg, arms or fingers. When you shave your hair, you have no hair.
Just like that, body can have no mind. You see on TV unconscious folks or dead bodies with no mind in the movies and dramas due to sleep, drugs, illness or accidents. But you have never seen in your whole life, souls or minds without body, I dare to guess.

Therefore, body is you. Mind emerged from body, as body grew up and developed biologically. When body dies, the mind in the body also dies.

What does it mean for our perception to not exist in a material level? Our perceptions and dreams can have a causal impact on the world, no different than when a errant baseball smashes a window. — Harry Hindu

Let say, you are seeing a wall in front of you. You see the rows of bricks piled to make up the wall. But you also notice, the wall is level with the fence next to it. The walls and fence exist in the external wall in material level (materially, you can go and touch and inspect the walls and fences). But the levelness you perceive don't exist in the world. It exists in your mind or the perceiver's mind.

Likewise, absence of sound, emptiness of space don't exist in material level, but they are perceived by the perceiver in the mind.

Now, the levelness of the walls, absence of sounds (silence), emptiness of space don't exist. Are they then pure product of mind, which are caused by the external objects? Or are they something that exist in the world without being noticed until the perceiver notices them? Because everything we perceive must come from external world.

Images in dreams are interesting in the sense that, the dreamer sees images that don't exist in the external world. Where do the dream images come from? You say, well from your memories, experience, and amalgamation of what you have seen before. But there are also images that you have never seen, experienced or the places that you have never been in your life previously in your life.
Where then those images come from?

Of course all the mental images you see and dream exist in your brain. Then while sleep, your brain is supposed to shut down too.

I'd say, it is because of the structure of our "thinking" that we even "desire" eternity/immortality. Of course our bodies are "temporal" in their lived forms. That, to me, doesn't prohibit them from being our only "reality" — ENOAH

If your body has lost all the contents of your memory let us suppose, but it still functions biologically. Would you be able to know then, your body is you?

Why is the body not enough. I don't approach these things religiously (as in conventional religions), but even if I did, — ENOAH

Could it be because body is temporal? As we all know, bodies get old, die and becomes dust. Bodies don't last too long.

but 'soul/spirit' are misunderstandings: illusions within the illusion, about what the illusion might be. — ENOAH

Surely the concepts of souls / spirits have existed for thousands of years. If you are religious believing in after life, resurrection or the heavenly world and God, wouldn't soul be the essential being for the belief?

Bodies get old and die through time. Minds die too. But souls supposed to survive after death to be identified for what the being had done, and how it lived to be placed in the different parts of the heavenly world, or the hell. To be able to keep continue the life after death according to the holy scriptures.

Without soul, the old body disintegrated, and mind evaporated, the system wouldn't work, or wouldn't make sense.

Does it imply that our perceptions are not direct? Could there be other factors involved in perception apart from the the object of perception, sensory organs, memories and experiences?

They're the sort of thing that we might find ourselves experiencing, especially if you lead a life that often experiences new places. One would expect to dream of experiencing yet more new things. — noAxioms

In my dream one night, I was flying a light airplane over the night sea. In real life, I don't know how to fly airplane, and never plan to learn to fly either. That dream was something that I would never experience or wish in my life time in real life.

Funny, but I have little recall of explicit dreams of sounds. — noAxioms

Could sounds in dreams might interrupt the dream, and make the dreamer wake up from sleep, therefore you subconsciously switch the volume off during dreaming?