I am of the belief that most other animal species cannot reflect and evaluate whether they like or dislike their current emotional state and then, have to justify continuing doing an unpleasant task for expediency. — schopenhauer1

Maybe we are over complicating things. What tasks do most animals actually have to justify doing, whether they like them or not? Apart from putting themselves in danger to acquire food I can think of nothing else. But it might even be possible that they just decide not to do the things they don't like or want to do.

Why would an animal return to a place were a mate was killed if they knew that danger was there? Could it be that they don't know the danger is there(they forget), or that they have forgotten the mate or that need forces them to return? None of these seems plausible when there is no reason to go there except to visit the place. Dogs often revisit places that they went to with their mates and seem to remember them.

Lost pets often find their families after weeks or months of traveling, sometimes to unknown places. There has to be some sort of motivation beyond momentary happiness.

While I lived in the USA a friend moved house from Kenner, New Orleans to the other side of the lake near Covington. About half way across the bridge the cat escaped its cage and jumped out the window. There was absolutely no stopping for any reason on the then very narrow 25 mile long bridge so they had to continue. Two weeks later the cat turns up at the new house, that she never even new existed. Following the scent might explain how she did it, but it does not explain why she did it. What possible motivation would she have had to make the trip instead of just finding a new place to eat. She must have made the decision that it was worth trying for some reason.

What I would consider more important is explaining the fun and unusual things they do. What motivates them to enjoy doing things? Can it be nothing more that momentary joy, that would not account for cases where the animals repeat the actions on other occasions. To repeat the action would mean that they in some way evaluated it and made a decision to do it again, this would mean that they do self reflect upon their emotions and memories.

I never said they didn't have other capacities like using tools, and problem-solving. — schopenhauer1

What would be the motivation to use these skills? Or do they just use them because they can?

So many people insist that animals don't have the capacity to register whether they enjoy what they are doing but I have never seen proof of this. That they do not reflect on enjoying themselves has not been proven or dis-proven simply because we do not know how the think. We do not understand properly how humans think still.

I see animals playing games, my dogs play what appears to be a rather sophisticated form of Tag, why would they do this if they don't enjoy it. I have seen birds, again a crow, sliding down a snowy roof and them going back and doing it over and over again. Why would they do this if it was not because of the fun of it?


There is little information about what wild animals do, most of what we know is from specific small group studies that cannot show everything all of the animals of that species do nor what they do while not being studied, or from one off observations like the videos we see on youtube.

Personally I give animals the benefit of doubt when it comes to whether they really think or not and treat them as if they do.

We don't do the business of surviving like other animals might. — schopenhauer1

Actually, I think that here you are wrong. We do go about the business of survival, just like every other living thing. The only difference is the way we do it.

Let us go back to the black bird for a minute. You agreed that they are capable of intelligence and innovation to solve problems.

Another example would be the snail shells I found on my roof awhile back. How did they get up there? After looking around at the other houses I saw that only mine had shells on it. After some thought I aligned one of the security cameras so that it would show a piece of the roof. Turned out that the culprit was crows, they dropped the snails on the roof and waited till they came out of the shell to escape the heat. Dinner served. Turns out that my house is the only one around with a small degree of inclination and the snails don't roll off.

If the animals are doing things like this instead of doing things as the have all along there must be a reason. Humans started finding easier ways to do things because they realized that it was hard work the way they had been doing it. Would it not be possible that we think animals are not aware of these things but actually they are?

There again, maybe birds don't complain about their jobs because they actually enjoy them. Making love in the trees, eating healthy food outdoors, no schedules to keep, only having to look after the kids for a couple of months and no college bills to pay. Humans would not bitch about those working conditions.

You can't kid a kidder. — S

Sorry, but if you want to talk about goats you will have to address YOURSELF to Banno.

Calm down, dear. — S

Too late, you missed the bonus.

You were given an opportunity to play your favorite role, Grammar Nazi, and you missed it. You must be getting old or maybe you just spend too much time not proof reading.

Can't you read.

I said that if no one looks for me they can piss of.
And stop being childish and going back to edit your posts.
Do what you always do and add another post.

Oh, by the way, did you happen to notice how far off topic you have taken this thread. You should be ashamed of your self.

Bonus time.

Perhaps some people don't self-reflect that much. I guess this is for the people who know they don't like doing the work they are doing. I refuse to believe some people don't reflect on whether they like the work they are doing. They may not communicate it perhaps. Or they are buying into a narrative, deception, or habit of mind. But that is my exact premise. — schopenhauer1

I think most people have some part of their job that don't like, so they focus on the benefits they get from it. It is not that they are buying into a narrative or performing some sort of self deception but simple that they realize that there is little most of them can do about it so they don't sweat it.

I have had many jobs starting at 17 working as a garbageman for the local council. It paid my educational expenses and because we did the job well we were respected and got lots of tips. I had nice clothes and cash to go out at weekends and party. But I really was not happy about the job, it was hard and could be messy. I left after I had a non-work related accident and sourly missed the money in my next job, sitting on a mowing machine cut miles of grass all day did not get you tips.

Hey folks, was that not a great imitation of someone we all know but who's name we shall not mention. :rofl:

The Oracle has spoken and will now rest.

If anyone looks for me, tell them to piss off.
If no one looks for me, they can piss off as well

I think I will have to find a bigger basket!

I should be humble like you. :rofl: — S

It certainly would not harm you to try. :smirk:

Or would it go against your very basic nature? :worry:

To stop it, we must limit our dealings with only what has been said as much as possible and when we think miscommunication has occurred, being able to identify that and put a stop to it. It's not as easy to do that as it sounds, when that same miscommunication may have already produced a lot of irritation and negative feelings. — Judaka

Some of us do try, unfortunately some others that consider themselves more as Oracles than participants try to force us into believing that their way is always right and that they are never wrong.

It is frustrating for some to have their ideas brushed aside without anything more of an explanation than, "I have already addressed that, you are wrong, go back and read it again, I cannot be bothered to explain, you should already know that, that is why you have to learn to use google".

But as in the thread about "Why we do jobs we don't like?", here we have the question "Why do we continue to argue with a brick shithouse?" maybe the answer is the same.
Because someone has to.

Your humour is improving. — S

Sorry, I forgot to say thank you for the sarcastic nice compliment.

8.1k :party: — S

As the dead billionaire found out, more is not always better. :cool:

Oh, by the way, I found out why there is no middle finger emoticon.

The discussions in question were my own discussions. You think I could have been the one going off topic in my own discussions? :brow: — S

Sorry again I forgot to answer.

No.

Oh dear dear, I forgot that I should really have put both of those posts together, but whatever my posts average per day needs to get higher so that I can compete in the race to win arguments in the threads.

Oh dear, I just remembered that I should have made some sort of a comment on the topic of your post to me. And that I should not have introduced other topics that might be considered "talking past you".

Sorry about that.

The discussions in question were my own discussions. You think I could have been the one going off topic in my own discussions? :brow: — S

The fish are starting to bite.

I specifically asked you to be polite and refrain from answering my posts. So now we know that your are not polite I suppose that I could be charitable and reply so that you do not think that I am not respectful.

Did you think that I was talking about you specifically? God forbid that I would stoop so low as to do such a thing. Did you know that vanity is one of the silent killers of the century? A billionaire died the other day just because he thought he needed a bigger dick.

But anyway time to move along. Here's another representation of an object for you to think about.



Is it really a mug, or is it really a message? Does reality allow it to be both? :wink:

I think it could be helpful to bring that experience into this thread as a kind of 'case-study' in order to pick apart exactly what went wrong. — csalisbury

I like that idea. It would be good to see who is off topic by examining what each person was talking about and comparing it to the specified topic in the OP.

Just might be that several people have egg on their chins. Or mustaches.

Beautifully expressed. :up:

This:
People that make a post for each paragraph of the post they are replying to instead of one for the whole thing.

It seems as though they are only interested in making higher post totals than participating in a civilized discussion.

And this:
People that take OPs from other people change a few words and an opposing idea and sell it as their own.

Are people giving up their authenticity by buying into a narrative that overrides their dislike for the work at hand? — schopenhauer1

How many do you think are actually aware that they are doing it?

A bird cannot reflect on how much he is tired of gathering seeds and berries. — schopenhauer1

While I cannot prove this to be false, there is not much information about it being true either. The truth is we don't know whether they are capable of reflecting upon their own lives. Have you seen the black birds that figure out how to solve problems so that they can get food. They are very inventive and appear to contemplate problems and use trial and error to solve them. Is it possible that they prefer to solve problems over just finding food out of boredom or dissatisfaction with their usual job?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0

A human can, but still trudges on. — schopenhauer1

Not all humans do, many seek to better their lot in life. Some just give up. It is a question of opportunities being present or not. How many people of low income have a chance to make their lives better? Not many, and some don't even notice that there are occasionally opportunities for them. So they tell themselves that things could be worse and that they are happy for what they have. That is human nature as any psychologist will tell you, no one wants to suffer so we create defenses against it.

But from another point of view, just how many truly satisfying jobs are there? Would it be even possible for everyone to be able to do the job that made them happiest?

Simply the reward of future money can't be enough either. You have to buy into the belief that money is the reason you do something you normally would not want to. — schopenhauer1

Did you try asking people why they worked before asking this question?
I know of only one person that would do his job without being paid, but only when he had enough money in the bank and had no expenses to pay to be able to continue. Me, I love my job even though I get pissed of with the idiots I am expected to teach.

And that is the solution to the grind most people suffer from, get a job you love.

:up:

Wait for me.
No, that won't work. It will take me weeks to hitchhiker over there.

I'll buy one here and think of you guys there while I eat. :smile:

The title itself I simply rolled my eyes at and felt utter contempt at such expression. — Amity

But you could not resist coming to see what was happening could you. :brow:

You do not need any software to find your IP nor your physical location. Yes you said that the internet has been routed to disguise your IP, but once you are in contact with someone it can be tracked back through any system.
https://whatismyipaddress.com/

There are plenty of police departments that us farcebook and twatter, so i doubt that he would be given access to them or any other social media. Even if the blocked all of these possible sites and there are many of them, he could quite easily google lots of information about find his real IP.

Why would they want to give him a radio? Surely he would be able to listen to local stations and get ideas about where he was.

In all, I think it a rather unreal situation, might have to do some more thinking about it if you plan on writing about this.
Lock yourself up for a couple of days and see what you do to get out of the situation.

Just ignore it like most of the rest of us do. — Baden

Yeah, that's right. :wink:

Fair enough. I guess the old TPF always lacked containment boards. :confused: — Akanthinos

There was the un-modded section back at TPF, and that used to get some serious flaming going on it.

AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhh. :rage:

OK then keep on posting.

Skulking back to the drawing boards for a new plan to rule the thread. :gasp:

I'll be back!

Bollocks, stop adding to this thread now.

Racism is nothing more than discrimination, I am part of the in group you are not, but on a larger scale. But it works from both sides equally.
Most of the time it is caused not by hatred as someone said but by ignorance. Hatred is caused by one group of people discriminating against another.
Many times the difference between the two groups is nothing more than the resources they possess, one group wanting what the other has can be a powerful motivator to hate someone. And it is even worse when the haves start to think that the havenots are coming to take away their possessions.

Think about it, what is the most discriminated racial group in the USA? What do people say about them? They are bring down the value of our neighborhood.
They want to steal our daughters.
You cannot leave your car outside without it being stolen.

They don't hate them for the color of their skin, they hate them because they think they are going to lose something.

It's the Lounge. That is all. — Baden

Yep, that is where you can sit around and watch people talk all kinds of shit. :cool:

Kids are taught to lie in school,
When someone says "Good morning, how are you today?" you will reply "I'm very well thank you"

My bosses get pissed of at me because I refuse to participate in the ritual of replying "excellent" when someone asks how I am. I have told them that 1) I am not a hypocrite and 2) I will not try to convince myself that I am excellent when I feel crappy as they seem to be trying to do.

People, including little kids, are being told that they should accept everyone as an equal without it being explained to them how that is possible when they are obviously nothing alike.

Boys and girls are not the same, even though common sense says they should be treated the same and have the same rights. Political correctness seems to want to go beyond common sense and eliminate any and all differences between them. I believe that this is one of the reasons why so many kids nowadays are confused about whether they are boys or girls.

There are lots of examples of political correctness causing people to lose instead of gain because some people are getting jobs they don't deserve just because of their color or religion.

One thing that is sure to happen is the death of comedy, no one will be able to tell jokes some without someone saying they are offended. Even slapstick will suffer because someone will claim that it is incorrect to laugh because they might actually hurt themselves when falling down even though they do it deliberately.

I've long subscribed to the notion that the source of human suffering is desire. — Wallows

I think that suffering comes more from not being able to fulfill one's desires than the desires themselves. Everyone has desires of some sort but not everyone suffers or is unhappy. The lack of capability or being prevented in some way from getting what you desire would make you sad and suffer.

Have you talked to the people at the local health or sanitary department, they usually people that inspect places and can order the landlord to either do something or close the places down.

What “game” would appeal to the majority of an adult audience? — I like sushi

I don't think one particular game would appeal to everyone.

What would be appealing to almost everyone, and is already making a great impact is virtual life.

Platforms like Second Life are gaining popularity world wide. As the speed and spread of the web increase so will membership to sites like this.

Eventually people will just slip into their virtual self and do whatever they like, esports included. It is not hard to imagine that one of today's kids would rather spend his day in a virtual reality while lying on his bed than having to get up and go to meet real people. Think about it, the teacher would be on line and he could go to school without getting dressed or putting on a uniform, he could do the exercise and class work while chewing gum, he would never be late handing in homework because he would do it online.

How many older people suffer from stress and anxiety because they have to run around trying to get their job done while looking after a family. In a virtual world, for people that do not do manual work, it would be so much easier to do things. And when they have problems with their partners or families they can retreat to the virtual family they have online.

This is not really possible right now but a lot of people do work from home using video conferences and the internet to receive and turn in their work. I believe that within a matter of a few years 3D conferences will take the place for meetings with the boss, not as a holographic like in the SciFi movies but in the online worlds.

To answer your question then, it would be the game of life.

Holy shit, S. Calm your tits down... Don't pick on @Noah Te Stroete. He be cool. — Wallows

Did you notice that HE never denied having tits? :gasp:
Maybe we should re-think what we have surmised about other members of the forum. :chin:

If anyone wants to give other examples of things they have seen or heard that might have promoted a narrative in this way, feel free. — wax

You do not need to go far to find examples nor do they have to be million dollar movies.

The Flintstones was supposed to be kids entertainment, but did you ever notice the topics?

Betty getting mad at Fred because she thought he was messing around with another woman.
Fred trying to be a snob to make Betty happy.
Troubles with the law and gangsters.
How ideal families should behave.

Lots and lots of conditioning for the tots.

Many animals have higher intelligence than they are given credit for normally, but who can tell exactly what type of intelligence it is.

Sea mammal can communicate between the members of their pods using sound, but no one is sure about how sophisticated that communication is.

Most birds have some sort of a navigation system that makes it possible to return to the same nesting place year after year. Some people think that it is nothing more than pattern recognition that lets them identify the places. But even that is incredible considering the distances some of them fly each year, how do they store and retrieve the memories?

Lots of dogs are capable of picking up things from their owners, like who they like and who to keep away from, But how they do this is unknown. It might be that they are capable of reading our body language or understanding the different tones of voice used to the different people the owner interacts with, or even that they do understand the words we used to a certain extent.

Our biggest problem is that we have not been able to learn their languages so we have no idea if they appear to be really intelligent some times or are capable of having higher thought levels most of the time.