Years ago when coaching 8 year olds in soccer, Keith kept throwing small sticks at Anthony, — Hanover

Ok, I have just one little question.

If you were training them to play soccer, I presume that you were on a soccer field.
If you were on a soccer field, where the hell did the little brat get the small sticks from?

Well let's see... intelligent, independent, compassionate, — Agustino

If she had those qualities, how could you ever be sure she did not take you in out of pity?

at a different level where you don't see anything fruitful in carrying on the investigation. — TheMadFool

I decide many years ago that I would search for the things I needed in my life, gods were never on the list of useful things to look out for along the way.

Shouldn't we try? — TheMadFool

I like gardening as a hobby, you get better return on time spent.

Marshmallows anyone? X-)

There are no good women nor men, there are no bad women or men.

But there are a hell of a lot of incompatible people out there.

Had God done this, man whom He created in His own image would have been reduced to nothing more than a mindless, (albeit righteous and well-behaved) puppet and He a mere puppet master predictably pulling the strings that would keep his toy on the straight and narrow , safe from harm's way. — John Gould

Which is what he actually created. Where did he get the idea to give them free will?

Whether or not He chooses to pick up His iPhone when yo call Him and PERSONALLY talk to you is purely a matter for Him to decide, not you. — John Gould

That is basically what the Hollywood saying means.

that all I ( and they ) had waiting in store was the grim reality of eternal death; of death, that is ,as FINIS ( where dead is dead). — John Gould

Why is it that I have no fear of death? I am over 60, I fully realize that the biggest part of my life is probable over and that the rest is going to be down hill. It saddens me maybe that I won't be around to witness so many things, but it does not scare me.

Why are you scared of it?

Omnibenevolence, omnipotence and omniscience are universally accepted as attributes of God. — TheMadFool

But how can you keep saying this when god himself said he cannot even be imagined by humans? If we cannot even imagine his properties then you cannot write about them.

It pisses me off when people ask how I can be a moral person if I don't believe in god.
Just as bad is when they ask if you believe in the devil when they find out you don't believe in god.

But while there is no direct path from man to God, there IS a path from God to man... — John Gould

So that is something like the Hollywood saying, "Don't call us, we'll call you".

God, in graciously condescending to save a fallen and lost humanity through revelation of Himself is truly "Sir2u". — JohnGould

Since it was his fault in the beginning he should help clean up the mess. If he was perfect and made humans in his image then someone screwed up somewhere. I guess that would be a good enough reason for not wanting to be seen though.

To be absolutely honest, I read the book several times and all I see in it is a rather twisted sales pitch. 2000 year old propaganda meant to scare the shit out of people to make them behave in a certain way. Cocacola spend millions to convert people into believers and have not had half of the success of religions. I wonder what it will be like when people start going to war over brands.

It sounds that way. But we can come to some agreement on what perfection entails e.g. omnibenevolence, omnipotence and omniscience aren't controversial. — TheMadFool

If these are not controversial I don't know what is.
For something to be perfect, should it not include these qualities? How is something that is not omnipotent going to be perfect, a perfect being has to be capable of doing anything.

However, we may have our own conception of perfection, in a relative sense. — TheMadFool

So you admit them the idea of your god being perfect is only relative to your own conception of perfection?

Yeah, but they didn't teach me how to negotiate with cats. I'm talking literal cats here, so keep your mind out of the gutter. — Hanover

Bloody useless degree if they didn't give cat language classes. :D

I am sorry to disappoint you but the answer is an emphatic "No, I cannot !". — John Gould

That is not in the least disappointing, I expected it.

forever hidden from, humanity. — John Gould

Could there be some reason for this? Or is that unknowable as well?

When dealing with other beings we quite often infer characteristics from their behavior, is it not possible to do this for your god?

But there are lots and lots of buttons that do their job properly ! Iam only interested in nature of THE perfect button and apart from doing its job properly what physical properties ( for example) it possesses in terms of, say its size, shape, colour, mass, density,what substance it is made from( wood , metal, plastic?), how many thread holes it would possess, or is it the case that the perfect button is one that is not sewn onto a shirt or trousers with cotton, etc?) and so on? — John Gould

And maybe you could provide a similar list of qualities for your god.

According to Anselm ontological argument we can possess an idea of God as THE perfect being, now a button is a much humbler thing than God so surely you should have no difficulty providing me with a brief descriptive account of the nature of THE perfect button as it is in itself? — John Gould

What is the purpose of this god you talk about? If it has no purpose then any or even no quality would make it perfect for the job.

Buttons having a purpose can be described in so many ways that are each perfect for the job they do, so there might be millions of perfect buttons.

If you insist on an answer to your question you will have to provide some sort of quality or purpose that can be compared to a button.

You are presuming that the essential nature of a button MUST be defined in utilitarian terms. What if my friend Mr X insists that the essence of a button is fundamentally a question of aesthetics (beauty). The onus is now on you to prove that Mr X is mistaken and that his thesis that the perfect button is the most beautiful button is false.

The ball is now in your court. Please present your objection/s. — John Gould

Does the most beautiful button do its job?
If it does not fulfill its purpose as a button then it cannot be qualified as a button(in either of the senses).

If it does fulfill its purpose as a button, then any other quality is secondary and therefore just a question of taste or adaption to use.

My cat is kneading it's claws in my chest and my dog is whining on the floor because she wants up in the bed. My efforts at negotiating aren't working. — Hanover

Take the bloody thing over to the Shoutbox, they are talking about fat cats licking their balls over there.

Could you give me a brief description of the perfect button? — John Gould

One that does its job properly.

Buggery and brimstone.

I think I messed that up didn't I.

It would make a very fitting end to this thread.

NO TO THE BUTTONS.(N) (Y) (N) (Y) (N)

It is soooo tempting to push them. (N) (Y) (N) (Y)

Without the longing for it, you are just being dishonest in your claim of needing food, because you are not even hungry. — Metaphysician Undercover

Me thinks you have it backwards.

I am not in the least hungry right now, after just finishing a can of sardines on toast and washing them down with a few beers. But I long for a big juicy steak.

If the freaking hurricane is going to come through here on Sunday I need to buy food right now, but of course I am not hungry. Nor am I longing for the food.

The need for somethings can be a requisite for life, name a longing that is necessary for your well being.

and you want a categorical separation between "need" and "longing". Why? — Metaphysician Undercover

I don't want anything of the sort. I am just trying to point out that need and longing are 2 different things. They might be related by some of their synonyms the context in which each is used is completely separate from each other.

Try this.
I need a glass of water.
I desire a glass of water.
I want a glass of water.
I long for a glass of water.

Do they all mean the same thing?

Hard to know if you're a worthwhile individual without some 'Likes'! It's the most accurate measure out there! — CasKev

Do you think that the people that liked you understood what you said, or they liked you because you said something that they were to dumb to think of.

Are things that are impossible — gunner

What do you count as impossible?

Why do you place "want" in the category other than "desire"? — Metaphysician Undercover

I don't, if you look at the list it is shown as a synonym for need.

You may continue to increase your list of longings, showing that none of them imply need, but this will never demonstrate that need is not a longing. — Metaphysician Undercover

It is something about the way a word is used that gives it its meaning.

When I say "I long for a piece of cheese" is there any need implied?

When I say "I need food" it does not in anyway mean that I long for a piece of cheese. It simply means that I have to eat to survive.

Longing, as you yourself said is a desire for something absent, it does not mean that I need what is absent.

Clearly I am not equating desire and need. — Metaphysician Undercover

But you are when you say that they are in the same category. Why does desire only appear as a synonym for longing and necessity not appear for longing.
Because they have different meanings!

If longing for something absent is the larger category, — Metaphysician Undercover

Which it is not because it is not even a synonym of need and therefore not in the same category.
Similar word to longing would be
hankering
yearning
desire

None of which actually imply need.
requirement
necessary
want
necessity
requisite
essential

So I asked you, in response to your post, how is need not a form of longing for something absent — Metaphysician Undercover

It is obvious I think that while some people think of a desire as being the same as a necessity they are incorrect.

Maybe we can get some validation that way. X-) — CasKev

Is that your reason for posting here? Most of us do it for fun. :D

Or wait - maybe silence is the highest form of praise you can get here... — CasKev

That's how the original thread in the old place got started.

My comment was serious. — Banno

So we got from Umpha umpha to fuck then fuck you and on to let's go fucky fucky.

Not a bad days work for early man.

How is need not a form of "longing for absent things"? — Metaphysician Undercover

I can long for the girlfriend I had when I was 18, but I don't need her.
I can long for a peanut butter sandwich, but I don't need one.

I need food.
I need water.

Seems to me there is a bit of a difference.

If there is one, then there is a way to make an other one. — Vajk

There's too bloody many already thank you.

Nuh. It would have been "fuck!" — Banno

Probably in its old form umpha umpha.

Crap, I just realized that I am on 2 threads called The First Words and The Last Word. I will have to do some serious thinking so as not to confuse my posts.

That's an obvious set-up for a joke about beer and spreading, but given all the recent sexism hoopla, I'll let that one slide right by... ;) — CasKev

I thought that I was the only one with a dirty mind. >:)

God(s) is/are omnioptent being(s).

Assume: there are no omnipotent.

1. x is non existent
2. y is non existent
3. If x is non existent then x cannot kill y
4. If x cannot kill y then y cannot be dead
5. If y is non existent then y cannot be killed
6. If y cannot be killed then y cannot be dead
7. y cannot be dead AND y cannot be dead (non contradiction)
So, our assumption that there are TWO omnipotent beings is false. This reasoning can be applied to any number of Gods.

I think this works just fine because 0 is a number and this reasoning can be applied to any number of gods.

Does this prove there are no gods?

The first words were born in this state of longing, fairly desperate, for absent, 'missing' things. — Mark Aman

I would have thought that need would have been a bigger motivator than longing for absent things. It might be that in some cases they overlap, but I doubt that man learned to speak so that he could call the old lady to come home.(Or vise versa so as not to seem sexist)

Imagine you go to work, a long day, angry boss, and lots of unappreciated work that was done by you. Then, you wake up and realize that the day just started and you now have to go to an even worse job, with a worse boss, with much worse pay. I believe you would be pretty "bummed", to say the least — Anonymys

This happens to many people everyday, and they HAVE to call it reality.