And is there any gold left after they have been there? :joke:

No seriously, have you noticed that gold has been quite persistent...




Wrong again. This is similar lie like the peaceful protest of Jan 6th.

The Special Counsel investigation uncovered extensive criminal activity

- The investigation produced 37 indictments; seven guilty pleas or convictions; and compelling evidence that the president obstructed justice on multiple occasions. Mueller also uncovered and referred 14 criminal matters to other components of the Department of Justice.
- Trump associates repeatedly lied to investigators about their contacts with Russians, and President Trump refused to answer questions about his efforts to impede federal proceedings and influence the testimony of witnesses.
- A statement signed by over 1,000 former federal prosecutors concluded that if any other American engaged in the same efforts to impede federal proceedings the way Trump did, they would likely be indicted for multiple charges of obstruction of justice.

Russia engaged in extensive attacks on the U.S. election system in 2016

Russian interference in the 2016 election was “sweeping and systemic.”
Major attack avenues included a social media “information warfare” campaign that “favored” candidate Trump and the hacking of Clinton campaign-related databases and release of stolen materials through Russian-created entities and Wikileaks.
Russia also targeted databases in many states related to administering elections gaining access to information for millions of registered voters.

See here

But as the Mueller report didn't find direct cooperation, then the whimsical idea that you promote has surfaced. Just like the Jan 6th attack on Congress didn't lead to an autocoup by the former President, it had to be a peaceful demonstration and Trump won those elections. Similar dubious logic. (Which already was backed then discussed on this forum)

And now we see the effect of this.

And here's Trump's greatest gift to Americans: the Trump recession! Came in quite quickly.

(Forbes, March 4th 2025) A slew of economic data is signaling that a recession is around the corner. The impending economic contraction, and possibly a recession, is primarily being caused by President Donald Trump’s tariffs imposed on Canada, China, and Mexico and the wave of retaliation which has now followed. Moreover, the chaotic layoff of federal workers will likely lead to a rise in unemployment and tightening of spending by those losing their jobs. Additionally, deportations of undocumented immigrants, as well as the fear thereof, is causing significant uncertainty in several important economic sectors such as construction, farming, hospitality, poultry, and small businesses.

On Monday, a closely watched model of gross domestic product level, the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s GDPNow, estimated significant decline of 2.8% in annualized growth for this quarter. This is a sharp contrast from a 2.3% increase last week. Unlike the quarterly GDP figure, which is a lagging indicator, GDPNow is the Federal Reserve’s running estimate of real GDP growth based on available economic data for the current measured quarter.

The GDPNow model estimate for real GDP growth (seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the first quarter of 2025 is -2.8 percent on March 3, down from -1.5 percent on February 28.

This kind of information the Trump administration doesn't want to be leaked out. Unfortunately for Trump, the local Federal Reserve Banks are not part of the government. There also is a real possibility of a stock market crash, if they aren't ready to support the market. Gold, anyone? Especially if there is a crash, also gold prices might go down for a while.

Exactly.

I would prefer Europe to get its act together without getting lured into a cataclysmic war with Russia, thank you very much. — Tzeentch

You need a strong military and the will to fight the aggressor to have real deterrence. Appeasement will bring that cataclysmic war with Russia. Only strong deterrence does literally what it means: deters Russia. Weakness and appeasement will only raise the interest of Putin.

Russia invaded Ukraine because it saw the country as weak. All the intelligence people (that Putin later fired) gave that impression that it would be as easy as annexing Crimea. That Ukrainian military wouldn't put up a fight, that a Russian proxy leader could be installed quickly to rest of Ukraine as Novorossiya would be carved up was the idea. It would be as successful as the dash for Crimea. Or like Operation Danube, from history.

There will be peace in Ukraine, and Europe won't be going to war with Russia, no matter how hard some disgruntled intellectuals might find it to swallow their words. — Tzeentch

Europe doesn't have to go to war with Russia. Europe can assist Ukraine. If they only would believe in themselves. Europe holds the cards here as Ukraine does. Not Trump. But Putin can simply continue the war too. He isn't been pressured at all.

If you're eager for more blood, go volunteer for the Ukrainian Foreign Legion while you still can. — Tzeentch

I know some of them. They are highly respected in our military and with our reserves as they bring valuable insight on the actual fighting capabilities of the Russian forces.

They know their political lives will be cut short if they have to make a 180 on Ukraine. — Tzeentch

Well, working for Putin will cause that, because people at least in the Nordics, Baltics and Eastern Europe do see Putin as a threat. It's called democracy, you know.

There is, of course, no guarantee that anyone will take my sage advice. Perhaps the opposition will fold up, dig a hole, and bury itself in it. Perhaps Donald Trump will bring about full-fledged fascism. Bad things can and do happen to good people. — BC

I bet 1 euro that it won't happen like that. The opposition to Elon Musk and Trump will rise. Perhaps Trump will then want to use the insurrection act, which will just draw more opposition like flowers and honey attracts bees. It will just give more vitalism to the cause. This is something that won't be limited to just angry town hall meetings.

The Trump recession is already here, it has started. His most stupid trade war will just reinforce the downturn. Trade wars before had some reasoning behind them, with Trump they don't. And Canada being said to be the 51st state isn't a laughing matter here, just like taking Greenland isn't either. It just shows the hubris of these ignorant Trump followers.

As I've said even before this all started, Elon Musk will be the most hated person in the US and around the World. And after him, it's going to be Trump. Yet this is absolutely devastating for Tesla. Tesla as a company is already getting the response for Elon's crazy actions. After all, who the fuck will buy a Tesla now as it's a political statement that you are for Elon?





And it's going to be worse. A lot worse.

The Trump cult will fight for it's revolution and live in it's alternate reality, where the economic and political damage that Trump (and Musk) have caused will likely be portrayed as the doings of the "Deep State", which is there to get Trump. And some will believe that idiotic line.

So don't think you won't be heard.

That’s why it’s all so funny when people like Trudeau turn all Trumpian in response and starts to tax his own citizens. — NOS4A2

Canada isn't going with 25% tariffs on everything, so the response isn't Trumpian. I find the 100% tariffs on Tesla quite apt to the situation. And of course, it can be something else:

Ontario Premier Doug Ford says he's willing to cut off power supply to the US if President Donald Trump continues with tariffs against Canada.

Ford announced his retaliatory plans shortly after Trump implemented a 25% tariff against Canadian imported goods and a 10% tariff on Canadian energy.

He said he would implement his own 25% surcharge on Canadian electricity exports to three US states: Michigan, New York and Minnesota.

If the US tariffs are escalated, he said, he would consider completely cutting those states off from Canadian power.

And on the other nonsense you write, it just reinforces my views that NATO is going to be dead, or at least Trump cannot be counted on. Perhaps the most optimist scenario is that the US goes for a while out during the Trumpian fit, just as De Gaulle took France a bit out from the pact for a while.

But likely the damage has been done.

Exactly. Just look at his official picture. It's just like his mugshot, actually. Not a happy man. Not now, coming back to the Presidency.



People were totally correct that this guy was waiting for four years just increasing his vindictiveness and grudges against everybody. Just look at his rant where he started to give the real reasons why he was so angry to Zelenskyi. On giving reasons why Russians broke cease-fires:

“They broke it with Biden, because Biden, they didn’t respect him. They didn’t respect Obama. They respect me,” Trump continued. “Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me.”

This above is the alarming part. He views as Putin having also to endure the "witch hunt". This idiot truly believes in Putin and thinks Putin is his friend. And then of course Hunter Biden's laptop scandal, which fell apart after Republicans’ star witness admitted that the story had been completely fabricated with help from top Russian officials. Zelenskyi then didn't do what Trump wanted, and Trump got impeached for the first time. So there's one personal reason for the grudge.

Russia having the most practically experienced military in the world and strong alliance partners. — Tzeentch

And having lost a lot of equipment, basically capable of making quite localized attacks. Perhaps several years of a cease-fire + sanctions put off, it would be totally different.

To top it off, we don't even know what will happen to Ukraine when the Americans leave. — Tzeentch

Ukrainians have resources for few months to half a year. That's it. Or Europe would really get it's act together. And they might, even if you don't want them to do that.

Like Ursula von den Leyen is purposing:

EU chief Ursula von der Leyen on Tuesday, March 4, presented a five-part plan to mobilize some €800 billion for Europe's defense – and help provide "immediate" military support for Ukraine after Washington suspended aid. "A new era is upon us," the European Commission president said in a letter presenting the plan to EU leaders, two days before a summit aimed at cementing joint action on support for Ukraine and European security longer term. "Europe faces a clear and present danger on a scale that none of us has seen in our adult lifetime," she wrote, as she outlined options for funding a European defense surge.

"'ReArm Europe' could mobilize close to €800 billion of defense expenditures for a safe and resilient Europe," she told reporters in Brussels as she outlined the contents of her plan.

With €800 billion you can help Ukraine a lot. And start replacing the weaknesses that you have for relying on the untrustworthy ally.

The idea that Russia is so strong and European countries so weak is just this mental barrier that we have in our minds. Because many Europeans don't simply believe in themselves.

another factor is that the non-MAGA'ers tend to be those that respect democracy (+ are less susceptible to conspiracy theories), and Trump did win the election after all. — jorndoe

And now I think it's time for a conspiracy theory, in my view. Europeans have to wake up and understand that they are alone. Or then they have to bow to the Kremlin, because it's Putin who is calling all the shots when it comes to what Trump does in Europe.

What scares me is the effect of a probable and severe US downturn on the world economy generally. Europe already is stagnating, plus it now has the additional burden of compensating for Trump's treachery in Ukraine. Here in Australia things are humming along OK but we're a minnow in world economic terms, and if there's a big worldwide downturn it is bound to affect us. — Wayfarer

What makes this worse is just listen now to Canadians. Listen really to the speech the leaving Trudeau gave.

You see it's one thing if you have a "normal" trade war about or industry or service. Then the usual discourse is that on this area the other one is "cheating" on some specific issue. And that's what trade policy is for. But everything on a 25% tariff? Everything? And it's not only that: another thing is offending people by talking about them becoming a 51st state and then starting a trade war because no other reason than you want foreigners to put their industries into the US. That is extremely offending and condescending. And now Canadians feel it's outright hostile.

And that's really bad, because they won't care about if the economy now goes south, because it's Trump. And Trump's going after their sovereignty. That kicks up Canadians totally differently.

When Trump comes to the European Union and gets us to a trade war, I think the outcome can be that the US really leaves NATO. Because nobody will say to Trump that it is a bad thing I fear. Someone like JD Vance and Musk are too far with the idea that "one has to shake up old liberal Europe".

My son has three cafés which have been doing fine but it's a sector that's highly vulnerable to reductions in spending and he's flat out just staying afloat as it is. He's never really seen a real recession - we managed to avoid one in the GFC - but the possibilities are grim. — Wayfarer

Well, what can we say, it's an experience. Basically a huge transfer of money from some people to others.

When I graduated from school, I could enjoy for a few months enjoying a strong economy, when you could as a young guy right from the Gymnasium (High School equivalent) pick the job you wanted and go there. Then I went to serve my conscription and the economy collapsed in a banking crisis. I assumed first, well, the recession will be over when I come back from the army. Not so, the economic depression lasted for about five years.... and never basically came back. Not like as then, when everybody was hiring.

Then why don't the US citizens who don't want this... do something about it? — Christoffer

What day is this of the Trump administration? This is only week seven.

Democrats are still shell shocked from losing the election. Didn't electrify them much to have first senile Biden as the candidate before Kamala was rushed their without any primary election. Then they still don't have had enough crap as the trade war is only starting (as is the recession, possibly). Then the MAGA crowd is still quite vocal and hostile. The Washington circle is quite lame and just stunned.

There's not yet the enthusiasm and the feeling to oppose Trump. The MAGA crowd however, has all the time had the enthusiasm as Hillary Clinton called them the deplorables. And of course, first people laughed at Trump. This created the group cohesion among the Trump supporters and after Jan 6th, they see them as part of the revolution.

The "counterrevolutionaries" haven't yet emerged, but when things go worse from here, they might. You see, it's not just the savings, the evident policy of "making the poor pay and take their service, while having brazen corruption". It's the total disregard of the separation of powers, when you freeze assets and spending that by law have been already passed by an entity that has no legal position.

This makes it all a constitutional crisis. Something that easily could lead in the worst case to violence as just is just craving to show crush possible open opposition towards him perhaps with the insurrection act.

Oh, I think the picture is taken from some Russian follower of X or something. Actually fittingly.

I just occasionally view X as it's simply a propaganda machine: however you can try to find the sane people's tweets/messages, along comes Elon Musk and the bunch.

There is nothing in Putin’s essay about any imperial ambitions. — NOS4A2

Really?

Putin starts it like this:

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe.

Try to say this, they are just one people, is quite an offense of another sovereign state. And he doesn't think this only as a shared heritage.

I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.

Possible only in partnership with Russia. Quite clear there.

And then there's a multitude of lies how the Russian people have been robbed of Ukraine and how the independence of Ukraine is this machination from the evil West, hence the artificiality of a sovereign Ukraine.

We can disagree about minor details, background and logics behind certain decisions. One fact is crystal clear: Russia was robbed, indeed.

When working on this article, I relied on open-source documents that contain well-known facts rather than on some secret records. The leaders of modern Ukraine and their external ”patrons“ prefer to overlook these facts. They do not miss a chance, however, both inside the country and abroad, to condemn ”the crimes of the Soviet regime,“ listing among them events with which neither the CPSU, nor the USSR, let alone modern Russia, have anything to do. At the same time, the Bolsheviks' efforts to detach from Russia its historical territories are not considered a crime. And we know why: if they brought about the weakening of Russia, our ill-wishes are happy with that.

Hence it's the Bolsheviks and later on former head of Soviet Union that made this unjust thing for mother Russia. Now if you don't see the imperialism in this, you don't see much and are not as bright as I thought you are.

European law has primacy, I’m afraid. — NOS4A2

You think. If you think that the EU members are like Ohio and Wyoming, think again.

* * *

And now you do have the most dumbest trade war. So happy self-mutilation with raising prices that with 25% tariffs are a sure thing.

I'm just waiting when the idiot will start the trade war with the EU. Won't be long, I guess.

Trump is quite likely going to walk away from NATO, so I guess that's all that great winning. After all, when Elon agrees on something, it has to be a great idea.

I’ve just heard an interview with general Sir Richard Sherriff (ex chief of the European arm of NATO). Who has his finger on the pulse. That the Russian army is in a bad way. — Punshhh

And that's why Trump is a gift from heaven to Putin. Even still, Russia can fight with an army that is treated like shit. And when the Ukrainians can basically just defend, they will be OK.

You should not convince me. You should convince Trump. — neomac

One cannot convince Trump. Trump is Trump and will be the disaster he will be. One should convince Americans how much harm Trump is doing to you.

We have now the dumbest trade war in history and the self-mutilation of America has started. At worst, it can really end up in a violent confrontation inside the US. If Trump now, when he has Congress, has to resort to disregard totally the separation of powers, go after judges and fire generals, think what it will be like if Democrats take the House and Senate? You think Trump will somehow come to his senses.

No, if you listen to him, he is living in his alternate reality with 100+ billion aid becoming 350 billion aid.

For Trump, abandonment could be a policy goal or a bargaining chip. — neomac

Look. Trump takes these issues quite personally. Notice his rant about "He and Putin" being thrown into fire with the Russiagate. How was Putin under fire? That is the real Trump. Soft-skinned and vindictive narcissist, who has a lot of hate and revenge to give after all those court cases. When Europeans try to be diplomatic, he sees weakness. But when they dare to talk about the Atlantic Alliance, the rules based order, Trump sees just Biden loving liberals who he resents. That's why Europe and Trump are on a collision course and there's no way out of this.

Really, this isn't about bargaining. Heck, the bullying with tariffs got him Canada and Mexico to put troops on their borders. Well, that worked! They were OK with this kind of Trumpist bargaining. But was Trump satisfied with that? Hell no! Now after one month, he had to have the tariffs. Did he give anything for the tariffs? No, just drop dead and move your factories to the US. Well, trade creates prosperity, but when you put it like that, the response will be like Trudeau and Claudia Sheinbaum have given. And they are popular, because it's very popular to be against a bullying foreigner, that is an asshole. Because that's what Trump looks like outside the US (and inside for some).

I think we make a real failure of thinking that somehow Trump has logic and reason behind his actions. He doesn't. People desperately wish there would be and want to see that there is. You see, in his first Administration he didn't actually get much done, which is actually great. Because if the economy is Ok, Americans are happy. They might be happy if the POTUS would be a genuine live Duck named Donald, as long as the economy is OK. As ducks live more than four years, not hassle with Donald Duck.

But now, Trump, the Master-of-the-Universe, will want to do a lot. And he surely is doing a lot.

It will be really, really worse even than now.

As I've said, first the most hated person in the US will be Elon Musk. Then afterwards, the most hated president will be Trump. But before that, there will be those who truly support him.

Trump has no respect of the Constitution or the separation of powers. At worst, it really can come to a violent overthrow of him.

At worst.

Indeed, once the US breaks free from multilateral agreements (that could be vetoed), the costs of policing the world, and spinning the liberal-democratic propaganda, American foreign policies have an “unprecedented” wider spectrum of options (I’ve already talked about this one month ago [1]) also for decreasing their costs. This comes at the price however of accepting greater risks and more fluid alliances, hedged only to the extent the US maintains its military/technological/financial supremacy. — neomac

What are the "unprecented" wider spectrums? This seems even more delusionary than the Brexiteers talking of the wonderful new deals that the UK can do without "being shackled by the EU".

How is does to the maintaining of that military/technological/financial supremacy help to alienate Europe, push them to put up their own military-industrial complex, declare publicly that you are an untrustworthy ally, who might not be there for you and then start what the WSJ called the "Dumbest trade war in History"?

How does it help that? IT DOESN'T! It has totally the opposite effect.

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense. What is there to "divide" between Russia and China. China's military allies would be traditionally North Korea (even if that is a bit tense) and Myanmar and perhaps Pakistan. And that's it. Russia has basically has North Korea, a comrade in arms, Belarus, that is problematic for Russia ...and Armenia, for which this alliance has been a disaster. And then real or perceived influence in Central Asia. Oh and perhaps Cuba and Venezuela. And that's it.

What are you dividing with these countries? Russians are just laughing at how the US is destroying it's might itself. Russian economy is the size of Italy.

What is the reason to walk away from your most powerful allies?

Only thing is that Trump is either truly agent Trumpov or that the MAGA-crowd hates so much the liberal international order that they will want to attack their allies, destroy everything that the US has been building for 75 years and have these dreams of "a new world order" growing out of it.

Ukraine really is here the key, because it's the key to European defense structure. Vast majority of European countries will unify behind the support of Ukraine. You can already see how this is happening: a coalition of the willing is extensively working together and they don't give a fuck about Hungary or Slovakia.

So back to blocking food from Gaza:

(BBC) Israel has blocked the entry of all humanitarian aid into Gaza as it demands Hamas agree to a US plan for a ceasefire extension.

The first phase of a truce deal mediated by Egypt, Qatar and the US expired on Saturday. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said Hamas was refusing to accept a temporary extension proposed by Donald Trump's envoy, Steve Witkoff.

A Hamas spokesman said blocking supplies to Gaza was "cheap blackmail" and a "coup" on the ceasefire agreement and urged mediators to intervene.

The ceasefire deal halted 15 months of fighting between Hamas and the Israeli military, allowing the release of 33 Israeli hostages for about 1,900 Palestinian prisoners and detainees.

What I don't like is that Merz is inviting this war criminal to Germany, but Germany naturally has the Hitler-complex to fear about, so they cannot tow the line as other Western countries (except the US) can condemn Israel's actions.

* * *

When Trump is halting aid from Ukraine and want's "it's money back", Bibi can thank him for the arms that Israel has gotten:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu thanked US President Donald Trump’s administration for sending munitions he claimed had been held up by the previous administration, saying they would help Israel “finish the job” against Iran and its network of allied insurgent and terrorist groups.

The video of Trump berating Churchill is great. See If Trump was President in 1940

That would really be Trump in 1940. But the intelligence services of the Third Reich weren't so good as Soviet/Russian intelligence services have been.

Right, forced conscription. No elections. Opposition parties banned. Nationalized media. “Ukrainians themselves decide”. — NOS4A2

Well, I live in a country that has "forced conscription", where in my constitution it is written that "All Finnish citizens have a duty to defend their country". We, just like Sweden, have the idea of "Total defense". That's what you need to deter a bully next to you that will interfere in your matters and will try to dominate you. Worked against Stalin, will work against Putin. The doesn't have to have such, because you have oceans on both sides and Canada and Mexico.

And Ukraine's constitution declares that no elections under wartime. So you just go with meaningless Kremlin lines there of Zelenskyi being a dictator. Russia doesn't have free elections even during peacetime.

All of that is deep-state dinner-theater. — NOS4A2

For you, because you don't believe in your country. Or at least the country you moved away from (the US). If you believe that grifters like Elon Musk and Donald Trump will somehow save your country, when the don't give a rats ass to the values which America stood for, that's your problem. Luckily, as we have seen on this forum, not all Americans share your ideas. Yet when you think that your own government is the real enemy, then it's totally understandable that you believe the Kremlin lies. Unfortunately Putin isn't your friend.

Russians have been saying for decades that they would intervene should Nato integration sharpen ethnic divisions and create civil war in Ukraine, which it did. — NOS4A2

And they intervened also in Moldova, which by Constitution cannot join a military alliance. Sorry, but you cannot ignore the ugly truth that this is also an imperial enterprise, the reconquista of Novorossiya, because Ukraine is an artificial country. Russia would have done this and had bases in the Baltics already for a long time if there wouldn't have been a NATO.

Not a single one of them mentioned a return of the Russian empire. — NOS4A2

So you are totally clueless about this. Start with Putin's "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians" speech. That's Putin's Mein Kampf where he spills out what is the right future for Ukraine. And then there's ample amount of Russian propaganda about this intended for the Russian people and how Russia will conquer back Novorossiya, New Russia, as it was called.

A picture of a woman holding the "Correct" map in 2015:

Independent and sovereign states, eh? Which law has supremacy, Finnish law or EU law? — NOS4A2

You understand the difference between a confederacy or an union. I've always said that the EU is a confederacy of independent states desperately trying to be an union. So in the end, it's Finnish law. Just as it is if the country is us or Hungary or Spain etc.

We declined the fantasy of taking back our old possessions since the day we lost them all! :rofl: — javi2541997

But the absurdity of it to us Europeans does tell about the insanity of Putin. An European politician saying similar things and we would think he's lost his marbles. Spaniards understand that they have lost their empire. The British understand that they have lost their empire. What we now have to show the Russians that they too have lost their empire and the they will just do enormous harm to themselves in trying to regain back that empire.

If every European nation would pick from it's history when it was the largest and declare this to the "be the natural state" and then demand that these territories belong to them and any state now existing in them are purely "artificial", we easily understand what kind of a Pandora's box we would open. And we understand that EU was formed because many millions of Europeans had died in two World Wars. Nowhere else has there been such a massacre of people. It's because of those millions of dead that the idea of European integration did achieve so much.

Yet people like Putin (and Trump) don't see it as this way. And a lot of appeasers come to proclaim that these insane visions are "realpolitik".

I'm not. I think it's easy to speak support and much harder to actually do it and get consistent support for it over a longer time period (which we'll need). You'd think this sort of thing transcends party politics but it's very clear in the Netherlands they don't. — Benkei

It will be a coalition of the willing. Always. And that's fine with me.

I wouldn't like an EU that would behave like an imperial entity. Europe doesn't need the integration that Napoleon or Hitler attempted to do. Besides, a confederation of democratic states will always look like a laughable crowd of chickens to an autocrat.

BTL Comments are open and should be interesting to read... — Amity

Marco Rubio, Trump’s obsequious secretary of state, spoke revealingly last month about his vision of a 21st-century world dominated by the US, Russia and China, and divided into 19th-century geopolitical spheres of influence. It was necessary to rebuild US relations with Moscow, Rubio argued, to maintain this imperious tripartite balance of power. — The Guardian - Simon Tisdall

This is as stupid as the Project for the New American Century was that was cherished by the neocons, who then actually got into power. The problem that the decisive diplomatic and military victory that the US had with liberating Kuwait went to the heads of the neocons. So they thought they really could mold the Middle East into something new. Because the US foreign policy didn't have to anticipate any countermove from the Soviet Union anymore, the sanity of US foreign policy was lost... at least in the Middle East. Now you have an even more insane MAGA-thinking dominating the US. This kind of thinking is really as damaging as was going for Iraq, that didn't have any nuclear weapons.

If Rubio truly talks about Russian domination, what would the Russians dominate? What is he letting Russia and China dominate in this surrender deal? I think Europe has a say to this and naturally threatened the EU and other members of NATO will find each other. This kind of thinking is the worst kind of defeatism that one can think of. Why alienate your friends and bow in front of your enemies? You think Putin that has Trump on the ropes will genuinely have the respect? No, they have a word for this in Russian, a "useful idiot".

And China? Likely China wanting to be in good terms with Europe will resent this kind of division. And Russia can go along with these warm ties as long as it divides the US from it's former allies.

This all is possible, because the MAGA-crowd believes their worst enemy is the US government itself. So they have to decapitate themselves by attacking the "Deep State". And because Biden and Obama were for NATO, it's natural that Trump is against it.

But then, we do have the madman right next to us with a country, which has only the idea of being an empire.

I'm a long time reservist and been in the voluntary training of reservists for decades. I remember once sitting down with fellow reserve officers and non-coms who have dedicated quite a lot to voluntary work for the military and said: "I guess none of us would be here, if on our Eastern border there would be Canada." They all agreed. None of them likely would have gone to the military in that position. I definately wouldn't have, because I thought it would be a nightmare for me. Well, it wasn't, especially afterwards.

And this is the absolute question for the Dutch, the country is one of most strategic places for Europe with having the important artery of Rotterdam. Yet you have all around quite nice countries. Belgium isn't bellicose towads you and the Germans aren't either coming. Spanish are even less are thinking of taking back their old possessions. When the Soviet Empire had it tanks in East Germany, that was close enough for you to have a large army and conscription. It was easy to see the threat. Now it's far more difficult, because Russia isn't threatening the territory of the Netherlands. But it will try to attack and dissolve the EU just as it tries to dissolve NATO. And that does create a threat.

In my view Netherlands has been one country, that has really put it's cards into the existence of NATO. When Elon Musk is wanting the US to ditch NATO and UN (which the latter would have tremendous effect on UN decisions towards the Palestinian conflict), this is a new situation. The dramatics won't end up these weeks that we have seen now.

Perhaps it's the contrast to what comes out of America, but European leaders seem to be dealing with the new situation quite well and understanding the situation. At least I'm hopeful.

I think Trump will organize a yalta-like moment where he sits down with Putin and maybe XI and/or Modi too, to settle the war, come up with the beginnings of a new plan for Europa and the middle east with less involvement of the US, so they can re-locate forces to the pacific to where the balance of power has shifted. — ChatteringMonkey

Likely Trump doesn't understand just how against this goes his allies, if we can call them those, who aren't for this kind of decision making. Above all, any meeting of this kind would be either a nonevent or at worst, a total disastrous for the US as Trump is really a bad negotiator. If he would have written himself the Art of the Deal, he maybe a negotiator, but he isn't. Everything from surrender deal made to the Taleban to the castigation of Zelenskyi shows this.

They will leave the war, whether Europe agrees with it or not. And then Europe will be faced with a decision to either continue the war, and face possible consequence of twarting Trump, or go along with it and agree to peace on his terms. — ChatteringMonkey

And just what will Trump leave? This isn't and hasn't been anymore the question of just Ukraine. I think Europe will leave an open door for the US to come back, if it wants, but otherwise the thing is written on the wall. Only Trump can withdraw from NATO, but now Europe has to go alone. Nobody would think that Trump would lift a finger to defend for example the Baltic States, which is the reasoning that Europe has to restructure it's defenses. Naturally it can say it's just doing what Trump wants when rearming

Now there's a lot of support for continuing the war, but I don't expect that to last when the consequences of it start to dawn on the more pragmatic elites in Europe. — ChatteringMonkey

It's not a question of pragmatism, it's a question how close Russia is to you. Let's remember that Russia wants NATO to withdraw from the Baltics, from Sweden and Finland, from Poland, from Romania. So for a lot of NATO countries the support for Ukraine and spending more on defense is quite pragmatic and logical approach. Not perhaps for Portugal.

You already are seeing how closely is the UK and Norway working with EU countries, so what is forming here is a "coalition of the willing". Likely the UK with France and Germany and Northern Europe, the Baltic States and Poland. Naturally all these countries want to keep the US in NATO, but you never know what agent Trumpov will do.

And really you can look at it in two ways, 1) a bunch of illiberal autocrats carving up the world that must be opposed at all cost, or 2) the beginnings of a more stable organisation of the region without the US. — ChatteringMonkey

How about a synthesis: an unstable World were bunch of illiberal autocrats try carving up the World and others desperately trying to hold on to a rules based order.

I think we should stop fighting the geo-political wave lest we drown, and try to ride it in a direction that actually has some potential. — ChatteringMonkey

We aren't drowning, even Ukraine isn't yet. Those who think the MAGA-movement is the new geo-political wave might be the ones that will do the drowning, thanks to the wisdom of their awesome leaders like Musk, Trump and Vance.

This is the reality of their immense brilliance:

Elon Musk, who holds no official cabinet position in the administration, wrote on social media that he agrees the United States should leave NATO and the United Nations.

On Saturday, Musk quote-tweeted “I agree” to a post from someone who wrote, “It’s time to leave NATO and the UN.”

People really should wake up to see how insane these morons are. I can easily agree with Friedrich Merz that NATO won't last to it's next summit in the summer. Or perhaps there Trump walks out of it. Something that is totally possible.

.

Maybe you could be right. Big imperial powers tend to become unstable too over time and split or dissolve, it's not certain for example that the US will still be there in a few decades the way they are going at the moment. — ChatteringMonkey

You have now a former Superpower dissolving it's power and the other Superpower shedding it's power by it's own actions.

The first example is of course Putin's Russia, with the Russian dictator hell bent on correcting the greatest tragedy of his lifetime, the collapse of the Soviet Union, and trying to reinstate Russian power to it's former glory. He gambled heavily and won big with a bold military operation of annexing Crimea. But then, as usual, he thought that it was true what his underlings eagerly said to him, that the rest of Ukraine would be a walkover, that he could quickly take Kyiv and install a puppet regime there and annex parts of Ukraine to create again Novorossiya. Then Russia would be back on it's former glory and could deal with Europe.

Well, the luck of the gambler change and he was mired into a large conventional war.

The second example is far more curious, and I think never has happened in history. Simply put it, the two power sharing parties in the US have always have their "fringe" groups, but with Trump, populists with ties to the alt-right took over the Republican party. In the first Trump administration, when Trump hadn't so much thought he would win, this fringe wasn't ready and many parts of the administration was manned with conventional conservative Republicans. But after January 6th, Trump has gained total control of the party and molded the old Republican party to a MAGA crowd, which has no resemblence with being conservative and old school Republican. Nobody will question him, because anybody that would oppose him is threatened with a MAGA candidate opposing him or her in the primaries. And better to lose in the general election, than be banished by the MAGA tribe.

And with power going to his head, Trump as the "Master of the Universe" starts with royal decrees called executive orders (because why would he try anything as difficult and time consuming as passing legislation) to mold the US and the World to his liking. Make Gaza a resort! Annex Greenland and Panama, make Canada the 51st state of the US, have a drug-war in Mexico! And then of course, have quickly a peace in Ukraine and get that Nobel-prize, just like Obama. And do deals with Russia.

And the asset and his handler have a wonderful relationship as Trump will help Putin from the quagmire that Putin is in Ukraine and Trump can be lured to believing that he will get lucrative deals from Russia. If Trump fell for those talks of having hotels in Moscow earlier, he surely will fall for Russia deals worth billions and billions of dollars.

This will alienate the European allies of the US, which Trump sees no importance in valuing. They, perhaps with the exception of Hungary, talk of those values that Trump's enemies, Obama and Biden, talked so much about, like international rules based order and the stuff. Hence in his ignorance, Trump will push away the former allies of the US. Trump simply doesn't understand how irritating is for someone like Musk and Vance supporting Germany's AfD. It is similar to what Putin did in the US. Now some might argue that Trump can easily change his stance, but I disagree. He has never said anything negative of Putin, ever.

Yet it's always the ineptness of Trump that will backfire here. I gather that there's not going to be the Trump peace in Ukraine, just as the new shared friendship with Russia won't become the success story that Trump think it will be. Trump has already started the smear campaign against Ukraine.

And anyway, Trump's popularity will fall with the economy, which is heading likely to a recession. But even if then Trump has to focus on the domestic economy, he has already done a huge disservice to the US.

Looks like we can go it alone after all. — Punshhh

Yes. Hopefully we will just get to have that will and not buy the MAGA-American defeatism.

Some countries have helped more Ukraine with what they have, than others:


The truth is a war against Russia is totally winnable in the sense that you don't have to surrender. Japan, Poland and my country have shown it.

:smile: :

In effect, though, what the EU and NATO are doing is sacrificing their own economies and Ukrainian soldier’s lives on the altar of what amounts to political theater. — NOS4A2

Wrong. Ukrainians themselves decide how long they will fight. If they want to continue the fight for their independence, we can give them the weapons.

We know none of this is about democracy, freedom, human rights and other verbal claptrap — NOS4A2

Wrong, this is about those values and the independence of sovereign states and defense of the Russian reconquista Putin has started. And Putin would have started that with or without NATO. The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy in history, remember?

or else it would have raised a huff when the US ousted the democratically-elected leader of Ukraine, causing a civil war. — NOS4A2

Wrong again. The Ukrainian revolution wasn't a US controlled ouster (like Operation Ajax), but a uprising that Ukraine has had many. That not even the Donbass rebels wanted this thug back tells how unpopular the leader was. (After all, wouldn't it had been credible for them to have Yanukovych as their leader?)

We know it isn't some principled stand against Russian expansionism or meddling — NOS4A2

It is a stand against Russian expansionism and meddling. So wrong again, NOS.

because the EU has been trying to annex Ukraine for years, for the sole purpose of exploiting it for grain and fuel. — NOS4A2

Lol. Going off the far end here? Nations can send in their applications if they want to join. And even in the negotiations, then can view it that it's not worth it. Just like, well, Norway did. Hilarious to see EU as an Great power, as everybody knows its a confederation of quite independent states.

We know it isn’t about sovereignty because the EU is supranationalist. — NOS4A2

Wrong again. For members like Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Sweden, Romania, it genuinely is about sovereignty. It starts from things that Russia demands to have a veto on what actions as sovereign states can European countries do. Like to join EU or to join NATO. That kind of sovereignty issues.

So all this preening comes at the expense of the reality. — NOS4A2

Your the one living in the Trump coocoo-echo chamber.

Hell, only one country involved in that war attacked EU jurisdiction when it sabotaged those pipelines, and oddly enough it’s the same country the snivelling bureaucrats there wish to fund. — NOS4A2

Russia is actively cutting cables in the Baltic (Gulf of Finland), just some kilometers off where I live, so...

As you live Canada, why don't you go to the local pub there wearing your MAGA hat and ask how eager they are to join the US as the 51st state.
.

I totally understand that the US is playing a risky game because they might still very much need allies to preserve their superpower status. But in the current predicament they clearly privilege those which are proven to be helpful and faithful to the US’s struggle for supremacy, then it’s matter of European people’s taste: Netanyahu, Starmer, or Salvini? — neomac

Yeah,

Why don't you start with the allies that have contributed soldiers that have participated in the wars you have fought? Wouldn't they be the ones that are important? Or you want those allies that won't do anything, but praise your President? Guess then your most helpful and faithful allies are Bibi and Victor Orban, which the former naturally hasn't ever contributed forces to your wars, but you contribute troops to even today. And why doesn't Trump ask the billions back from Bibi then?

In fact, just in Afghanistan, Denmark suffered the second most casualties compared to the population, which is quite small.

Number of foreign soldiers killed in Afghanistan
Country Deaths Population (2010) Deaths per million
1.USA 2,461* 309 million 7.96
2. Denmark 43 5.5 million 7.82
3.Georgia 32 4.4 million 7.27
4.UK 457 63 million 7.25
5.Estonia 9 1.3 million 6.92
6.Canada 159* 34 million 4.68
7.New Zealand 10 4.4 million 2.27
8.Norway 10 4.9 million 2.04
9.Australia 41 22 million 1.86
10.Latvia 4 2.2 million 1.82

So how is Trump valuing Denmark as an ally and the commitment the small country has made? He wants to buy or annex parts of it, and hasn't refrained from even using military force. In that Trump shows his real face.

Don't ever think that this is normal or belittle the past administrations that they too would be as "transactional" as Trump. For the MAGA crowd, those are the "Deep State". This really isn't normal behavior anymore.

I think that in the US most people and politicians (left or right leaning, it doesn’t matter) have finally converged on the idea that the US can’t afford anymore to overstretch: overwhelming debt for military expenditure, dispersing resources around the world in geopolitical arena without significant return of their political, military, economic investment while enemies and allies grow fatter and hostile toward the US. So now the US is betting on the fact that neither Europeans nor Russia can really profit much from the US downsizing their presence in Europe to threaten the US strategic interests (also in Europe) in the foreseeable future, at least by comparison with China. Russia and Europe look now too weak to challenge Trumps’ game, and their weakness can be played against one another. — neomac

But this doesn't make sense. Fine if you want to downside your military, if you want to go back to the US, be the proverbial isolationist, why then attack your allies? Why go so blatantly and so clearly on the side that is and has been hostile to you? Why vote in favour of Russia and North Korea when even China abstained from the vote in the UN? Why repeat Kremlin talking points? And why then this bizarre ideas about Trump Gaza? Why the attempt to annex Greenland and Panama? The US behavior under Trump is not something what you describe above.

Above all, is Elon cutting dramatically the American military to be half of it's size? Of course not.

And the US people and the politicians? I don't think that they have converged to this idea at all. If they would, then you could post me ample amount of speeches and commentary that this would be the case.

the US must avoid to overstretch, must contain China, both European countries and Russia must be more instrumental to the US strategic interests than the other way around, and at this point the US has greater leverage over European countries and Russia. — neomac

What leverage the US has over Russia? Trump has surrendered the position that everybody know how you deal with Russia, from a position of strength. It has thrown away it's own cards and become an subservient to Russia in pushing the agenda what Russia wants. Before the negotiations have even started, it has accepted the major Russian points that Putin has made. So idiot Vance tells that these arguments that Putin has made are "reality". Well, that Ukraine would be fighting a war still after 3 years of the conventional attack wasn't "reality" for anyone except the will of the Ukrainian people.

Sorry, neomac, I truly respect your views and you are informed about these issues, but this isn't your typical administration that has long term objectives and clear thinking of what it is going to do. There is this urge to see some logical reason behind everything, but you have to understand that one really big possibility is that there is none.

Trump is the key to understand everything here. It's so simply.

Because just look how actually thoughtful and visionary someone like Marco Rubio was before Putin invaded in 2022. (Notably you can see a person who is now a the secretary of defense in his former position in the video). Rubio understood that Russia would attack Ukraine and Rubio had been a very pro-Ukrainian hawk. Here, before the 2022 invasion, he was saying that Ukraine has to be armed. Here's a blast from the past:



Hence this isn't some new insight that the political establishment has. This is just the political establishment coping with the whims of Trump. And Trump thinks he is the Master of the Universe, so he goes on with a quick surrender of Ukraine, Trump Gaza and other crazy stuff.

I don’t think that Trump’s interest is to leave Europe. He wants Europe to turn into submissive clients, more responsive or pro-active in complying with the US demands: you want security? Pay or you’ll be on your own (or, worse, we’ll be against you). You want our market open to your products? Pay or you’ll be on your own (or, worse, we’ll be against you). Sort of a racketeering strategy, which is the other face of the wonderful peaceful multi-polar world which European pacifists were so badly wishing for. — neomac

He might genuinely be so stupid as he comes through his rhetoric and actions, which will just end up in the dismantlement of American power in a very rapid way. Note that Europeans have already seen where this is going. Friedrich Merz said that Europe has to be independent of the US and isn't sure if NATO will be around for the next NATO summit in the summer.

Likely it will be around in the end of June, but the Hague is a great place for Trump to leave NATO.

for Russia the destruction of EU and NATO must be very much functional to weaken the grip of the US in Europe, which is the superpower against which Russia tries to define its hegemonic status. — neomac

This is exactly their agenda. Why the US doesn't see this a hostile intent is beyond me. But I guess too much of "culture war" and too much of the idea that the "Deep State" in the US is the real enemy blurs people from seeing those who really have hostile intent.

If American nationalists wish to keep the US as the strongest superpower, which they most likely do, then Russia can be very much instrumental to contain China (and Iran to make Israel happy!). This likely includes the idea of keeping China and Europe separated. The idea of using Russia to counter China as the biggest competitor to the US supremacy is e.g. what Mearsheimer kept suggesting roughly since the beginning of this conflict. — neomac

And this is so the real insanity, which just show the extreme hubris and utter ignorance and delusions of these "American nationalists".

Perhaps they in their fantasies think of an "Kissinger moment" when Nixon went to China and the Americans enjoyed that "they" had breached the Communist states. Well, that breach happened because Mao was Stalinist and Soviet Union moved away from Stalinism with the two countries even having a border war.

What this friending of Russia, in order to "separate China", will do is for the US just loose it's largest and most trustworthy ally. Allies that really have designed their armed forces to be part of NATO. The trust has already been breached by Trump. Trump has through his actions made it totally clear that it won't stand with Europe and Europe has to go it's own way. The "Europe having to pay" for it's share of the common defense is now only a fig leaf that certainly the Europeans will repeat diplomatically. But they do understand that Trump and Vance don't give a shit about Ukraine and don't give shit about the Transatlantic alliance. Far too liberal in their view. Biden and Obama were liked in Europe, so fuck those people. So the real division here done is an effort to break up the Atlanticism. The US is already an untrustworthy ally.

Besides, these "American nationalists" seem to be totally incapable of seeing this from the Russian perspective. Why on Earth would Russia be against China here? What benefit would have to have hostile relations with it's largest trade partner and a country that is shares a very long border? It's China who has helped Russia here, not the US.

Putin will happily lure these suckers into breaking up their own alliances with empty promises.

Here's a great interview from Gabrielus Landsbergis, a former Latvian foreign minister, who clearly tells the situation as it is now. He gives insight just why some countries (like France) is against the using of Russia's frozen assets to help Ukraine. The reason is that China and Saudi Arabia are against this, which itself is understandable as for these countries such a precedent would be bad. Also the Landsbergis compares of just how little the aid to Ukraine has been compared to how costly the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were. The assistance to Ukraine is counted in few hundred billion, those wars in the Global War Against Terror cost is in the trillions both.

He’s still done more than any of the Euro bureaucrats, and he’s only been in office a month. — NOS4A2

Done much for Putin! Otherwise, he has done shit about any peace, made actual peace talks worse as he is just giving everything on a platter to Putin. Enough of this silly Trump "wants peace" bullshit.

Russian stocks going up anticipating the normalization of ties. Trump doing his best for Russia!

The Russian stock market is up 11.1% since the start of the year.
"In focus are the phone talks between the presidents of Russia and the United States, as investors increasingly hope for geopolitical de-escalation," Sberbank analysts said in a note.
Russia's sanctioned corporations such as gas giant Gazprom, whose shares were hit by the loss of the European gas market, as well as dominant lender Sberbank and liquefied natural gas producer Novatek led the market rally.

Perhaps it's time to use Occam's razor.

Nope, nobody is creating this as another smokescreen to keep both the public and Trump distracted. It might become a dystopia, but nobody's building for it to be so.

This all is the doing of Trump's and Vance's erratic behavior when Trump is surrounded by yes-men who take at heart anything the Emperor thinks one day. The whole argument of there being "a method to the madness" and Trump playing a 4D-chess are just hopeful dreams that this would end in something better. It isn't. It's an old man with a short attention span thinking he can do nearly anything he wants.

Americans should really wake up to the enormous damage being done now by Trump. If you really cheer now for Europe to "take care of it's own security", you should understand that it means that you the alliance is breaking apart thanks to Trump. This isn't about "Europe paying it's share" because there isn't going to be an alliance. Trump has no intention of strengthening the alliance. He really doesn't need NATO. When your visionary vice-President argues that Putin's Russia isn't a threat to Europe, his ignorance is quite set (as is his defeatism). When they intervene in the elections of European countries and try to push political parties of their making, that is a sign of outright hostility. You cannot hide it.

For Trump and Vance their actual enemy is liberal Europe, all these countries that have thought about being allies of the US and in defense of a rules based international order. Not Russia. And since not every country is lead by Victor Orban and Bibi Netanyahu, there are many of these "allies" they actually hate. This hatred is quite evident to see, actually. For these it's "Freedom of speach" values hurled at them, for Russia it's the new "realpolitik" of never criticizing Putin and telling Kremlin lines/lies. And trying to negotiate a peace on behalf of Russia.

Americans really should wake up and notice where Trump is steering your country into.

I think it’s power and praise. A Nobel prize would be nice. Plus war is costly and unpopular. He’s driven by media, as well, and can read the writings on the wall. He likes money too, of course, but I don’t think that’s a major factor here. — Mikie

Well, think of Elon and Trump. Elon gave him a lot of money to his campaign. Without Elon, he likely wouldn't be in the White House. So how he behaves towards Elon shows how he bows for money.

Power has gone to his head. What else could you say about the Mar-a-Gaza idea or the annexation of Greenland (even if that was already floated in the first Trump administration).

Next thing might be that NATO dies. Now people would like to think that this might be an outburst like France leaving NATO for a while and then coming back. But the way Trump handles these issues, I'm not sure. It really might be the last days of NATO, as Stavridis here says.



Only if the Americans would wake up to what disasters Trump is making, but likely that won't happen. MAGA crowd will cheer as Trump dismantles the US.

Next we will have the trade wars. You can just guess how that trade war will reinforce the current break up.

Let’s not forget that just this week, the US refused to endorse a UN resolution condemning Russia’s invasion.

Trump is to all intents a Kremlin asset now. — Wayfarer

Yes he is. Putin likely has dangled deals of hundreds of billions to American corporations to Trump, likely with few billions to Trump to pocket himself. Somebody (I don't remember who) commented that likely the math involved here with the demands that Ukraine has to pay are in similar ball range (as Trump confuses these things). The priority here is the normalization of relations and Putin getting a deal that he wants: The peace Putin would be OK with are Russia getting also the parts of the Oblasts that aren't in Russian control, Ukraine not in NATO and without security guarantees. Perhaps "Euro-peacekeepers" that can be bullied around like peacekeepers are bullied (like actors like Israel), but no serious military capability for Ukraine. And of course Zelenskyi thrown a way and a possible Putin puppet to replace him.

It’s good that Trump wants peace. — Mikie

Unfortunately I think you are wrong.

This is the lie Trump tells to us, the window dressing of his dubious objectives. What Trump wants is money. And Putin likely has promised him money. Promises of money are enough for Trump. That's the only reason why Trump would so recklessly, so enthusiastically try to force everything down the throat of Zelenskyi. That would explain the ambush of Zelenskyi.

Anybody, including Trump, just wanting for the deaths to stop, wouldn't go on to attack one side of the negotiation the way that Trump did.

Russia will keep the territory they annexed and there will be a guarantee of no NATO membership — Mikie

Russia actually wants the Oblasts that it doesn't totally control. Remember that Russia has already annexed them, so for Putin they are already part of Russia. That territory isn't negotiable. Ukraine did push Russian out of the Western side on Dnipro (Dnieper), yet the oblasts that Russia has annexed are situated also on the Western side. This would be a huge defensive difficulties to a post-peace treaty Ukraine.

They’re not going to win even with US backing. — Mikie

Don't be a defeatist.

Russia lost in Afghanistan.
Russia lost to Poland.
Russia lost to Japan.

Russia can have these military defeats and has to back down. It has happened. With a true backing of Ukraine this could a possibility. Before it would happen, Russia would negotiate for peace.

Even puny Finland all alone without such backing as Ukraine has, could get a peace deal in the Winter War, because Stalin was nervous that he could face French and British troops in Finland. They were intended to come here (in the end they were used in Norway). And this is the reality one has to see here: Russian will negotiate of peace only if it's really preferable to continuing the war. Hence Ukraine, if it would get a peace negotiation, it should come from a position of strength. Ukraine isn't yet collapsing. But thanks to the help of Trump to Russia, it might in future.

In general the feeling I get is that these people don't care about the fate of Ukraine or Europe in the near future because they're imagining that once they've remade America, the rest of the world will either follow or cease to be relevant. — Echarmion

If they wouldn't care, why then the hostility? No, really. Vance and Trump have absolutely no intension to be on the side of Ukraine... or on Western Europe. They want to cozy up with Russia and that's why the attack and the hostility. They are pressuring Ukraine to take what Russia wants, hence they are here doing Putin's bidding.

When you throw somebody under the bus, you have to show that the person earned it, had it coming, that he's the bad guy. It has to be Ukraine's fault.

And it will be worse, because Europeans won't so clearly throw Ukraine under the bus. This will irritate Trump even more, and likely the next thing will be NATO alliance itself. As John Bolton has said, Trump has wanted to exit NATO during his previous administration. I totally believe this. It think it's going to happen, because Putin can play Trump so well.

That is the ultimate goal what Putin wants, and Trump is doing his best to do that.

I do agree with the sentiment, but Zelensky had a purpose for going to the White House, and he failed. Maybe there was no actual way to succeed. But this was certainly not the optimal way for that to go, even taking into account the personalities of Trump and Vance. — Echarmion

Do understand that the US under Trump isn't in support of Ukraine, Trump is against Ukraine. Ukraine is the problem. Ukraine won't bow down to what Russia wants, so Zelensky has to go!

You criticize and attack your enemies, you don't speak anything bad about those who you support. This cannot be more clear now. There is no other way to see it.

Hence there was no way for an actual deal to succeed, because Ukraine isn't yet in a position that it's defense would be collapsing. If there would have been a deal to be made, then there would have been an actual meeting behind closed doors, not ambush like we witnessed. Now Trump will punish Ukraine, because he is for Russia.

What Trump will push for the peace deal that Putin wants, a deal that Putin wouldn't otherwise get. People have to wake up on this. Trump won't lift a finger to anything that Putin does. That's the real problem. Europe has to arm itself, because the US is now a willing sidekick of an Putin, whose appetite will grow now very much. This won't end with Ukraine.

Trump is getting us to a situation where it isn't just about Ukraine anymore. Putin can surely taste the blood in the water now.

One of the features of Trump's MAGA (Make America Grotesque Again) is that he is slashing a lot of government programs that aim to assist the least advantaged to achieve--not well-being, but something more than the flat-out minimum. Landing an apartment in public housing, for instance, is a huge step up from living on the street, even if it is a but spartan, The minimal welfare payment for single, childless adults is painfully low, but if one can qualify for other programs (like Medicaid, public housing, and food assistance) it doesn't lead to lavish well-being, but it's better than untended disease, living in a box, and eating from garbage cans. — BC

It's not the poorest and the unemployed that make a revolution, it's those that do have work and do own a home.

Unemployment or homelessness is a personal stigma. People in the most dire situation aren't going to make a revolution. I remember so well once in my youth when my country was hit with one of it's histories hardest economic depressions visiting the Central Bank and an economist saying bluntly to us students the reality: "The unemployed won't revolt." And he was right. The highest unemployment, higher than during the Great Depression, and they didn't revolt. The administration went on through the worst economic crisis and the growth path was worse. No revolt from the masses of unemployed.

How did the Ukrainian delegation, with Zelensky at the head, let this happen? — Echarmion

Trump and Vance are in Putin's camp and talking heads for the Russian dictator. How else would it go? Zelensky has to be honest to his people, who are fighting this war.

I just hope that Western Europe has enough backbone and stand up against Trump and support Ukraine. I'm sure that the asshole Trump will demand Europe not to support Ukraine and go along with this pressuring of the victim. Vance going of with Kremlin talking points is despicable.

US was the leader of the free world for 80 years. Not anymore.

So much for "Man of Peace" getting the Nobel peace-prize. The fucking Putin-loving moron.

Seems that your God Emperor didn't get the Nobel peace prize.

I cheer retaliatory tariffs. — NOS4A2

Then you cheer for Canada, Europe and Mexico! Because they didn't start this stupidity.

Good for you!!!

Trump the lunatic has to be stopped.

I would suspect the US is going to be in a very bad way before too long. But then anyone with half a brain could always have seen that by ‘Making America Great Again’, he actually means totally f***ing it up. — Wayfarer

But here I think the UK and it's Brexit shows just how otherwise sane people will fall for insanity and totally unsubstantiated promises and views if not for outright lies. There were no benefits of braking well established trade. Just look at the Brexit thread: the British PF members weren't enthusiastic about the Brexit and it's outcome far earlier than the actual economic effects became reality. But the denial persisted for a long time. Soon would the economic benefits of the UK cutting it's ties to the EU become apparent! Just wait... and then we got to the Labour government, when the Brexiteers could start venting their anger on just how bad things are. That is the likely future in the American case too.

Do notice that nobody is cheering for the trade war and the tariffs. Not even @NOS4A2 (even if he lives in Canada).

When I look at European media and newspapers here, it's evident. Already last week sent shock waves around and the general consensus seems that the US will be now an untrustworthy ally which doesn't share the same values as Europe does. Only the politicians in charge try to moderate their comments and speak diplomatically in order not to anger Trump. Add to this trade wars starting what, next week?

This should be very alarming as this is the way you do brake friendships and make the World far more dangerous. I've been listening to what Canadian politicians have to say about the current relationship with the US and never I've heard so bitter and offended remarks. Questioning the sovereignty of another country isn't a laughing matter, as Americans seem to think.

I think I was the one who told you that a trade war precipitated the Great Depression. Now you're teaching it back to me. — frank

It just sucks knowing that things will be worse off for everyone.

Basically because the US can destroy Russia without Europe's help. If the US needed European support, it would be a different story. — frank

Then there's the actual things to do when the US has to be involved. Which aren't so biblical wars as WW3. And then having allies is crucial.

Just think about it. Trump is likely going to war in Mexico and then the absurd Mar-a-Gaza idea. And this from him when there is no serious NEW crisis around or an attack that has to responded to!

I find it puzzling how many still take Trump's word for much of anything. — jorndoe

For him it's just words, but his administration will go onward with those words.

The US and Australia signed a free trade agreement in 2005. Australian officials are now negotiating tariffs that Trump wants to impose on them.
The US-Mexico-Canada Agreement was signed by Trump in 2018. — jorndoe

This is the whole irony. Trump simply just wants a trade war. The reasons he takes out of thin air.

That's why I've been so pessimistic about the outcome.

It has the potential to. A trade war would help American labor as long as it doesn't coincide with a panic that crashes the system. — frank

If tariffs would be so awesome, why then have they not created the wealth. They don't. That's why country after country has stopped using them.

Tariffs give the domestic industry not to compete with the outside World. They can rest on their laurels and at best simply higher their prices to the level of the foreign competitors. And why not? That brings more money to them especially if people need the stuff, like for eating.

The argument for tariffs and trade barriers is reasonable when you lack the technology or the industry in total and want to create it from nothing. Then trade barriers have worked. But the US is already a top player in global economics. This reasoning doesn't simply work.

And let's remember on the eve of this most stupid trade war, the Smoot Hawley tariffs from the 1930's:

(Investopedia) The Smoot-Hawley Act was created to protect U.S. farmers and businesses from foreign competitors.

The Smoot-Hawley Act increased tariffs on foreign imports to the U.S. by about 20%. Over 25 countries responded by increasing their own tariffs on American goods. Global trade plummeted, contributing to the ill effects of the Great Depression. More than 1,000 economists urged President Hoover to veto it. Hoover's successor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, worked to reduce tariffs and was given more authority to negotiate with heads of state under the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act of 1934.

Now Trump is doing exactly the same, but even higher tariffs when the World is far more integrated than it was in the 1930's.

I'm not sure why you're having this reaction. Are you afraid Russia is going to invade your country and Europe will just stand by and let it happen? — frank

I could give a thorough explanation, but I would be repeating myself a lot. But simply put it. If you think that Russia will stop at Ukraine is like believing that a millionaire once he has had his first million will be satisfied and not go for the next million.

So, I'll first ask you:

If just a short while ago Putin was paying Taleban for killed American troops, why do you want now to give him Ukraine on a silver platter and favor the same regime now? Russia has called the US an enemy state and Russian ideology has been anti-American during the Putin era. Why then be submissive to an overtly hostile nation, that is far weaker to you, which doesn't play by the rules you have earlier supported? And why then be hostile against countries, that have been friendly towards you?

Putin surely can play Trump by talking of being allies again and hinting at great deals. But why go with that?

We can go over the reasons why Russian imperialism and military aggression is bad for Europe, but now the question is just why to start appeasing those, who see the US as it's enemy and alienate those, who thought being your allies?

The idea is that some people opposed DEI because they think it forces stupid people to the top, where they contaminate the elite with their stupid genes. — frank

Some, but not many. These kind of racist fears are not what many had in mind when opposing the overreactions or excesses of DEI or anti-racism. And that's what they were: workplace excesses that usually showed just how easily especially one can lose a job in the US.

Yet then to go on with the current administration going full word-nazi and erasing "incorrect" words? JD Vance stating that these kinds of minor issues to be a far higher level of threats to Europe than the Russia military aggression and real war? Talk about an overreaction on a monumental scale out of proportions, which indeed makes everybody question just how sinister the real objective is.

Let's remember that Jordan Peterson got his fame and publicity by going against a Canadian law could be interpreted as setting rules for language. That kind of "word policing", which likely didn't have much effect in Canada, gave rise to Peterson. And now you have the Trump administration erasing words like equity from government documents and websites and people going through personal mails of government employees to fire them if they have been against the administration.

I remember one Democrat openly admitting that the party went too far in the DEI / anti-racism narrative thinking that it's the next step after the civil rights movement. That was an honest statement, but then, as typically happens, the counter reaction from the MAGA crowd wipes absolutely everything aside.