Are you willing to condemn Trump's use of language or not? Because if you're not, you're not worth a millisecond more of my time. — Baden

Trump's use of language is not something I agree with. No one should be referred to that way.

Donald Trump announced that he intends to end family separation with an executive order, by allowing entire families to be held in the same ICE detention centers. Now at the start of the thread you made a big deal about not housing the families together, so how do you now reconcile your views, with what appears at the moment to be a change in Trump's position? Also given that now Trump believes he can end this with his pen alone, something many of us said he could do, how do you reconcile that with the notion his hands were tied by existing laws? — Jeremiah

Dude, the problem with housing children in an adult detention center is that there are laws against it. When American citizen Sally is arrested for a crime, while she is being held, she does not have her children with her in jail.

Tell me why American citizen Sally cannot keep her child with her in jail?

Exactly how many "extra" is a "few"?

What about this. Until 60 years ago, borders were not patrolled and there was no such thing as an illegal immigrant. The problem is the idea of national borders in the first place. — Benkei

No dear friend. Not in a post 9.11 world.

I'm not an expert on immigration policy, or an immigration lawyer, nor am I in any type of position to activate new immigration policies, so it's rather pointless. But I will say that we should provide immigrants who cross our borders, with good food, safe and comfortable shelter, therapists for those seeking asylum because I can't begin to imagine the horrors they faced in the Northern Triangle, while they undergo the process of being admitted into this country as all the evidence shows that immigrants are good for the country, rather than splitting their families apart and locking them in cages, and this administration is currently doing. Ultimately they should be treated with respect and dignity. — Maw

I don't disagree Maw but that doesn't provide a solution to the illegal immigration hurdles for us to clear.

I changed my avatar to something much cuter! — Lone Wolf

Such an adorable pup!
Don't let @Baden pup sit for you! :smirk:

@Maw
@Jeremiah
Why is it that the posts that analyze the problem are the ones that are responded to and those posts that offer solutions are disregarded?

This kind of response is why we are in the position we are in. The outrage over (insert issue) until we are at a fever pitch, on the verge of chaos or change and then poof....the immediately desired change is made, the outrage is over because the practice has stopped and those that were outraged feel their job is done, without ever finding a solution to the problem.

This is from 2016
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-but-illegal-aliens-cost-the-u-s-plenty/

The cost of $34,000 was the local news radio show's number and I cannot find a citation for it.

Catch and release. — frank

That solves nothing. We will have another generation of DACA kids.

Trump is thinking he'll get money for his wall in exchange for mercy. That is grotesque. — frank

I know.

I'm not being political about it. It really is just plain wrong. As Maw said, his way reflects what some portion of the American people agree with. — frank

To which he is changing minds one person at a time.

I am looking for solutions now not whom to blame. We have enough on our hands trying to reunite 2000k children under the age of 18 with their guardians.

Got any solutions?

@Janus
A reply of yours has been posted to The Philosophy Forum Facebook page.
Congratulations and Thank you for your contribution.

Time lives forever within the eternal, and the eternal lives forever within time. Eternity is the timeless completion of temporality. "Time is the moving image of eternity". Plato
@Janus

So, what is 'normal'? — Posty McPostface

Normal to me is what I expect and am often disappointed in not attaining. Though I have found a level of contentment to make up when I feel less than normal.

I say if we want a government of the people, we have to be prepared for the occasional bumpy ride. — frank

Not much gets done until we hit a critical mass on anything.

In 2014 the profile of the illegal immigrant was a young, male from Mexico, sneaking across the border to get a better paying job. When they were caught by ICE, their case was heard within 48 hrs and they were sent back to Mexico via plane or bus. We had plenty of places to hold family units because families were not the typical illegal immigrants.

One of the complicating factors in 2018 is that the profile of the illegal immigrant has changed. We are seeing more women with children, fleeing savage conditions and looking for political asylum, which we can offer at a much slower rate than returning the illegal immigrant of 2014. If they are not granted political asylum, where do we return them to? They came through Mexico but Mexico is not the majority of these folks hometown. We cannot turn them away at the Mexican border and expect them to travel back to their southern country. We could let them travel through the USA, like Mexico, and present themselves at the Canadian border.

Can we find another country to help us out with these folks seeking political asylum? The cost to the USA is $34,000 a year per immigrant.

@Banno Australia?

A couple of things we could have done differently: we could have prepared better in the last two months since Jeff Sessions announced the Zero Tolerance policy. We could have erected more holding centers, to be able to keep the families in tact, while they wait to see a judge. Another thing we could have done was to take out a series of public service announcements in the countries to the south of the USA, as well as within our borders, informing them in their language, while they are still at home, that the USA is enforcing a Zero Tolerance policy.

@answermebot
Hmm... Welcome to The Philosophy Forum ….. I think

I am glad to hear you are doing well~ :flower:

Border crossing doesnt have to be any more dangerous than taking a hike. Crossing illegally into the US from where I am is a 74$ cab ride followed by a 45 minutes hike across some farmlands and woods. Unless some gung-ho border patrol idiot decides to gun me down, or hell, I come across some badgers, then there is no danger whatsoever. — Akanthinos

What port of entry is closest to you?

Ah well then I'm glad my words have made an impact. — Maw

Me too. Thank you.

@Maw
The reply that is moving me has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Thank you for your contribution.

Oh come on Tiff — Maw

Your moving me Maw, what can I say? The link to your immediate family changes things in my heart as I have a lot of family links to other topics and that matters greatly to me as well.

In merely six weeks, nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their parents. The situation is already inhumane and unsustainable. If this practice isn't stopped immediately the crisis will grow exponentially to something near unfathomable. — Maw

What about the 65k unaccompanied minors that were taken in in 2014?

How are they being sustained?

Exactly, and we are doing essentially the same thing today by turning away asylum seekers - men, women and children who are trying to escape abuse, cartel violence etc., only to ship them back to where it is likely they will be killed. — Maw

Maw, if that was the makeup of all of those who are trying to seek asylum were what you suggest, it would be a lot easier. The problem is that mixed in with those seeking asylum are some that do not have good intentions. How do we figure out which is which when our entry ports are being overwhelmed?

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you're defending this. It might be legally permissible to pursue illegal entry like this it's neither economical nor ethical and I'm suprised the latter does not already convince you this is wrong. — Benkei

Am I defending it or am I trying to explain what is happening on our border?

@Maw

In January 2017, software engineer Russel Neiss and Rabbi Charlie Schwartz set up a Twitter account which tweeted the names of each passenger who was not allowed to disembark and subsequently killed. The format of each tweet included the passenger's name, the sentence "The US turned me away at the border in 1939" and the location where each was killed.[27]

Maw, that is a chilling link.

I also brought up many other point that you are glossing over. — Jeremiah

Jeremiah, you have brought up many valid points but have yet to offer a solution.

Maybe we should also look at the economic gains of slavery without emotions. Morally is comprised of reason and emotion, you don't get a moral result if you exclude one of those elements. I really did already comment on all this. — Jeremiah

With all due respect Jeremiah, you also brought up Hitler earlier in addition to slavery now and I am not going to compare the two. Not for fear of semblance but because I will not disparage what concentration camps victims and survivors have gone through.

Perhaps your problem is that you are not looking at this emotionally. — Jeremiah

Perhaps. Here is a first hand account vs the man charged to enforce the Zero Tolerance policy, trying to separate facts from fiction. There is a suggestion about the height of emotion involved and whether or not it is appropriate.

Wait, let me get this clear. You are telling me that I stated my own position wrong? — Jeremiah

You have stated the Zero Tolerance policy is wrong and it needs to stop, right?

I think I have stated my position several times. — Jeremiah

You have stated it is wrong and it needs to stop. You have offered nothing in the way of a solution.

You actually think destroying families is "better"? Is that really your potion? — Jeremiah

Are you reading my posts or are you just responding emotionally?

The ends do not justify the means. These are children. — Jeremiah

What is your solution?

Who cares? — Jeremiah

I was trying to clarify with @Benkei as to what the law is, so I care and he responded so I think he cares. I don't think anyone here doesn't care about the situation and isn't looking for a solution.

If you think changes need to be made fine, but children are not political barging chips, destroying families in the meantime to use as political pressure is morally wrong. Stop the new policy, then work on immigration reform. The only reason Trump is doing it this way is because while he lacks a soul himself he knows he can use the moral hang ups of the Dems to pressure them. It is sick and wrong. — Jeremiah

He wants secure borders. Period. Full STOP.
He has been pushing for a secure border since he thought of running for President. He has tried to get two sides together in how to secure it and they scream it is inhumane to put up a barrier, a wall in some places and technology in others.

As most things in life, this is not going to get solved until all sides are willing to compromise to find a solution to a problem.

Nothing you have actually said justifies the continuation of this situation. — Jeremiah

It is really simple, we are overwhelmed at the border entry points. It is suggested that asylum seekers are not aware of the Zero Tolerance policy, which is why we need secure borders. So we can take those presenting themselves, listen to their reason and get them out of harms way. But to think that we can do that once they are in the country, is to revert back to the "Catch and Release" program and that was not working. Does that compute?

@Benkei

Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.

Simply being in the US without the appropriate documentation is not a crime, it's considered a civil matter under US law. Deportation is a civil penalty, not a criminal punishment. As a result, the separation of parents and their children is illegal under the treaties the US has signed up to. — Benkei

You are right in that simply being in this country without appropriate documentation is not a crime. Neither is entering at a point of entry. But as soon as they enter illegally, are caught crossing the border and I think within 100 miles of the border, they have committed a crime.

Is your memory only a few pages thick? This is a result of Trump's Zero-tolerance policy. The law does not always take children away and the most desirable goal is to always keep the children with their parents. If you run a stop sign should your children be taken away?

At any rate, all this talk about law is pointless, as it is MORALLY WRONG. Trump created this situation and he could stop it; the fact that he is allowing it to continue is just inhuman. — Jeremiah

Okay, I don't think the insults are necessary in this discussion but do as you please.
Running a stop sign is a civil violation, unless you are traveling at an extremely high rate of speed, reckless and hit a kid in a school cross walk. THEN the parent would be arrested and if there is no one to care for the child, the child is placed in Protective Services. A ranch up the street takes in such kids and their stay is about 3 days on average and from the visual you would never know the difference between our two ranches, as they are discreet. I whole heartedly agree that keeping the family in tact, is the ideal but how can you do that when our ports of entry are overwhelmed?

And to suggest that the folks crossing the border do not know about Trump's Zero tolerance policy, is to just reinforce a need for a physical barrier along the border except for the entry points. That would end any speculation that those seeking asylum were confused as to what would happen if they enter illegally.

I think we as a nation have witnessed the indiscriminate "Zero Tolerance" policy work and when it has failed.

One way it works is that the speed limit is 75 on AZ highways with a Zero Tolerance policy for anything over 75 mph. If you are traveling at 90 mph in a 75 mph speed zone, that is an offence and a criminal offence at that and you will be arrested on scene and your car impounded until you see the judge.

Conversely, we have seen the Zero Tolerance policy in California, in regards to drug offenders, in issuing the Three Strikes and your out, no matter what the first two offences were. California had a Zero Tolerance policy at 3 strikes, with no discretion allowed to the judge and what a cluster mess it created and we are trying to untangle one inmate at a time.

Again I ask, what would you suggest we do?

@wellwisher
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!
Enjoy your stay~

Admittedly, legal ease is not my forte which is why I surround myself with folks such as yourself, @Hanover @Ciceronianus the White and @sheps.

Let me try to explain this as simple as it is Monday:

If asylum seekers, present themselves at a port of entry, they are not breaking any USA law. They, parents and children, will be kept together until they have seen the judge and have been permitted or declined political asylum, at which time they will be moved through the USA channels of placement or turned back to return to their own country. Full stop.

If asylum seekers, travel over the USA/Mexico border, NOT at a port of entry and they are caught, they have broken the law. IF they are traveling with children, whose parents have broken the law, the children will be separated from their parent who is charged with breaking the law. Until the parent sees a judge, the children are not allowed to stay where their parents are being held, in a correction facility.

Children in America get taken away from their parents, when their parents have been convicted of a crime or are in a detention center waiting to see the judge about their crime.

Why would we treat a non US citizen breaking the law, any differently than we would a citizen breaking the law?