That is another straw-man. Two wrongs don't make a right. — Jeremiah

I never said they did, nor do I believe they do.

I am growing to seriously doubt your intelligence. I mean this should be basic stuff for a "philosopher". — Jeremiah

You are entitled to your opinion of me, have at it.

@Sir2u
Where are you?

Moral Injury within Drone Warriors
"Before the drone personnel at Creech make their way home, some drop by the Airman Ministry Center, a low-slung beige building equipped with a foosball table, some massage chairs and several rooms where pilots and sensor operators can talk with clergy. A chaplain named Zachary told me that what most burdened the airmen he spoke to was not PTSD; it was inner conflicts that weighed on the conscience. He mentioned one pilot he met with, who asked, “I’m just curious: What is Jesus going to say to me about all the killing I’ve done?” Despite their distance from the battlefield, drone operators’ constant exposure to “gut-wrenching” things they watched on-screen — sometimes resulting directly from their own split-second decisions, or conversely, from their inability to act — could cause them to lose their spiritual bearings and heighten their risk of sustaining a very different kind of battle scar: what some psychologists, as well as Zachary, have described as a “moral injury.”

Good Lord, I am so glad that my son attending a university that offers a degree in the field of drones, has resisted my encouragement to look into the program. What horrors these Drone Warriors envision sound equal to those in actual combat.

What your girlfriend is going through infuriates me with the medical community. My Dr and I talked about this reduction by 30%, for three months and finally off the med completely. Benzos, Opiates and all their cousins qualify for this indiscriminate reduction that is determined by numbers and not the patient sitting in front of the Doctor.

I have been on Xannax and Klonopin everyday for the last 25 years for anxiety, rumination and OCD. I was prescribed these meds by a Psychiatrist and when he retired, my new Doc prescribed the same way.

Now, (thank god in heaven) the Doc that I see is the one that told me I was going to die if I stayed on the Oxycontin I had been on for 2.5 yrs after breaking my back in a high speed, high impact horseback riding accident. When he told me that, I said that my regular Doctor (because I was at an urgent care as I had run out of my Oxy) told me when I asked him how get off of Oxy because it was only cutting 8 hrs of pain and it was prescribed for 12 hours of pain control, he upped my dose to three times in a 24 hr period. It was above what should have been prescribed but not an illegal amount.

The Urgent care Doc was stunned and said I am telling you, you need to get off this shit or your going to die. I returned to that Urgent care Doc after consulting my prescribing Doc when I asked again how to get off this Oxy and he said if you really want to quit, just stop taking it. :scream:

My Mom who was a nurse for half her life from Level 1 Trauma center nurse to Cardiac ICU, KNEW better than to tell someone on Oxy for 2.5 yrs to just quit, without tapering was malpractice and she went to his office and let it be known that she was filing with the state about his treatment.

It took me 2.5 years seeing an Addiction and Pain management specialist to get tapered off of Suboxone. Even after 2.5 yrs of tapering down, it took me 45 days, functioning at 15% of my daily life, before I got my first Dopamine dump. My body finally began to begin meeting the demand for Dopamine, I was coming alive again.

Now I am not saying that alternative pain medication is for everyone but I can tell you that I can no longer have Opiates, IB profin or Aspirin. I have Tylenol and Cannabis for pain control either chronic or acute pain. From bone grafting in my mouth to chronic back pain, cannabis buffers that pain by filling the endocannabinoid receptor but it is not as strong as Opiates but it is not physically addictive either.

Right now anxiety is not a qualifying condition for medical cannabis but I can tell you as a patient for other conditions that cannabis plays a role in bringing down the anxiety because I have been on the same dose of Benzos for 25 yrs, never an increase even though life stress and tolerance have gone up with time.

One rule that my Psych and current Doc agree with is that you only change one med at a time and let that settle before messing with any other med the patient might be taking, otherwise there is confusion as to what medication change is truly affecting the patient.

If I am not mistaken, Pain specialists and Addiction specialists are allowed a little more latitude when it comes to prescribing narcotics.

It seems you folks in the USA are learning too much from the way Australians treat refugees. — Banno

NicK asked how anyone could call what the USA is doing inhumane when there is real inhumane treatment over in Australia on Manus and Nauru island and why wasn't I bringing it up to compare real time treatment of illegal immigrants? I told him I was not about to conflate the two as I had enough to deal with and I am not sure there is anyone here that would be willing to defend Australia's immigration policy.

You are correct in that the Trump administration "implemented" this policy but it was considered an option back in July of 2016 when we had tens of thousands of children being sent across the border without guardians. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

During this time, regarding the prior policy, families were held together for "no more than 21 days", after which both parents and child(ren) were released together. The new zero-tolerance policy was implemented because we have a xenophobic, racist, white supremacist administration that has continually demonstrated utter indifference to Latinos. — Maw

The reason they were able to hold for 21 days was because at day 21, they were released, regardless if they have had their time in front of the judge or not. That was why the "catch and release" program was so popular. After being caught, held for 21 days, we legally had to release the illegal immigrant and they knew it. Our only way to abide by the law was to issue a court date, release those being held and contact them when their date came up in maybe 12 months, sometimes 2 years. As you can imagine the rate of appearing before the judge after being released was 30% at the highest. Where did the other 70% go?

Maw, logic this thru with me. Between the detention centers along Arizona's border with Mexico, we have the capacity to hold somewhere around 4k people within three detention centers. When we can handle the flow of those surrendering themselves to an entry point, asking for political asylum their stays were about 5 days. Now? We cannot even physically accommodate the asylum seekers AND follow the law we operate under in that we cannot hold anyone indefinitely. In other words, if a LARGE group of people present themselves at one time, it overwhelms our ability to process anyone as we normally would.

Just bear in mind that the parents entering illegally are aware of this policy. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Tiff, you need to provide a citation for this claim. Personally, I'm unfamiliar with the publication you provided, and am skeptical at some of it's broader claim of greatly increased immigration when Latin American immigration has been steadily decreasing since the recession. It is perfectly feasible, that there have been an increase in asylum seekers and an increase in border arrests without an overall increase in immigration. Given that this is a new policy, I find it difficult to believe that immigrants who may have been traveling for thousands of miles were well-informed about it prior to reaching the border. In fact, in some instances, border agents lied to the parents and the children in order to separate them without incident. In one case, a father killed himself while in a detention cell after learning his child was taken away. There have also been cases in which immigrants, following US law, have announced themselves for asylum, and yet were separated from their child for several months. This policy has been implemented with subterfuge and callous lies and reeks of a prelude to genocide. — Maw

Maw, please try not to go overboard in the idea that this is some form of genocide for it lessens the respect for those who were actually lost to genocide. Here is your citation: here and here and here

The fucking idea I am "on about" is that the average wait time is up to 20 days. Have you ever gotten a really bad sunburn from a day at the beach? It would be not just traumatic to the children to leave them out in the elements but it would be down right deadly for anyone. That is what I am "fucking" going on about. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Tiff, what is the connection between the forced and indefinite separation of families and not "leaving children out in the sun"? I'm certainly not advocating that families be left in the blistering heat while a slow churning bureaucracy screens them, but separating families indefinitely in no way solves this. — Maw

Please provide a citation that suggests the separation is for an indefinite period of time. That is not how the law works nor would it make logical sense seeing the spike in those trying to obtain political asylum right now. My point is that when a group of people, legally present themselves asking for political asylum and the sheer numbers overwhelm a port of entry, we have to do something. Our detention facilities are not family centers and I understand that it is not the ideal, nor is it meant to be, Trump has implemented this policy as a deterrent but we have to take care of those who are affected by it. Hence we are doing the best we can, with what we have and that involves caring for minors while their parents work through the legal system.

None of this is without pain for those children separated or for those caring for the kids. The caregivers are not allowed to pick up a crying child, they cannot hug a child, they cannot comfort a child. Keep in mind that these guards are people too. At the same time Maw, if a woman comes into the hospital in labor and the child is born with Meth in it's body? That child is taken from that Mother until it is proven that she is safe to have it returned to her. Is taking her baby heartbreaking? Yes. Is it necessary? Yes. Until she can legally have her child returned someone has to care for that newborn, if not a family member then the newborn goes into a temporary children's shelter.

Ultimately, immigration policy in this country has been shoddy, and I am not a proponent of Bill Clinton's, Bush's, Obama's approaches. But Trump's policy takes a defective system and dials up the inhumanity, and the forced separation, the deceit, and the rabid language and inhumane treatment is inexcusable. — Maw

So what is YOUR solution?

There is no correlation Maw. One is an act of Mother Nature and the other is the choice of free will. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Oh Lord. No. The Trump administration's blithe indifference to Puerto Rico greatly impacted the high number of fatalities, despite the Government's original 64 death toll estimate. According to a study from the New England Journal of Medicine, "one third of the deaths were attributed to delayed or interrupted health care." — Maw

Maw, I get the loss of life and the reasons why and I assure you it is not lost on me. The actual death count is closer to 4,000 because of delayed and interrupted health care. We have a friend who lost everything as a result of Maria and has returned to PR. He freely admits that the infrastructure was held together with bubble gum and shoe strings before Maria but after? It was obliviated. I don't think there was indifference to PR by the administration but rather they got caught in what many administrations do and that is the one two punch, never expecting the third that always hits.

If I remember correctly (please correct me if I am wrong) the first punch was Hurricane Harvey that missed PR but nailed Texas. The second punch was hurricane Maria that nailed PR and the third punch was the collapse of the PR infrastructure which is tragic and I hope is never repeated.

Maw Baden @Srap Tasmaner
Please take 5 minutes to watch this video and try to understand the impact on our nation.
And I ask you, at what point does the necessity of self preservation come in? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Did anyone actually watch the link I provided?

Then your issue is not with the immigration status of the perpetrator, but the victim. Illegal immigrants, in this scenario, would also fail to report crimes committed against them by native-born citizens and legal immigrants. Is that what you intended to argue? — Srap Tasmaner

That is not what I intended to argue but yes I agree that any legal citizen could just as easily abuse an illegal immigrant as another illegal immigrant could, with the same lack of consequences.

I don't give a flying fig if someone is here legally or not, UNTIL they break the law. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
See above.

I believe there are a number of studies that claim to show immigrants, including illegal immigrants, commit crimes at a lower rate than the native-born. You can Google as well as I can. I agree that if there is an underreporting issue, which is plausible, it might be difficult, but not impossible, to correct for that. — Srap Tasmaner

Thank you for having faith in me to use Google but as you rightly point out the numbers will never be even close to accurate until the unreported are able to be reported. Additionally, as far as "reporting" goes, our census numbers are totally irrelevant as most illegal residents did not participate in the census no matter how 'anonymous' it was guaranteed to be.

Also, I believe the Attorney General would take exception to your suggestion that entering the United States illegally is not in itself a crime. — Srap Tasmaner

I am not sure where I said that entering the states illegally is not a crime, if I did, I was wrong.

Entering the United States illegally is a crime but simply being an unlawful presence is not a crime.

Another social program illegal immigrants would pay into and receive no benefit from, as I understand it. — Srap Tasmaner

Possibly. I know that illegal immigrants that are using Social Security numbers that belong to deceased citizens pay into the system but I don't know what happens if they try to take it out or what happens when a raid exposes the paying into the system and what is done with that money. I imagine that the IRS is part of what tips the Feds off to what plants and farms to raid but the impact on a raid is huge, even on the legal immigrants. Fear is a big part of their lives because even if they are here legally, they often have family and friends that are here illegally.

You've given a few arguments for your position but mostly you've danced around it with distractions. That suggests to me you're not really comfortable with it. My suggestion is try to abstract out the fact that these people are immigrants and imagine them as just people. Then ask yourself what kind of extreme circumstances would be necessary to treat anyone like that and if those circumstances really apply here. That's all I'd ask of you. — Baden

Thank you Baden for considering me as a whole and not just the words on the screen. Your words and solid position do make me uncomfortable but I am okay with being made to feel uncomfortable, it makes me consider my position and take stock in what I think and what I feel. If I remove the label of illegal immigrants, I see citizens who need help or non citizens who need help and I am ready to help. What I cannot condone is abusing the offer of political asylum to the point where we lose sight of our own self preservation.

In not reporting the crimes, the criminals are left to abuse without consequence, to walk and drive the same streets that I live on, that I am raising my kids on.

I don't give a flying fig if someone is here legally or not, UNTIL they break the law.

For instance: a friend was driving home from work in his new truck. He was rear ended by a car with 4 illegal immigrants, carrying no identification, no insurance and didn't want the cops called.

What would you do?

What did he do? He took them up on their offer of $500 cash to pay for the insurance deductible he would have to pay if they reported it with the cops.

Now, not only did he cover for the fact that they were illegal but now he would be setting himself up for insurance fraud.

One more thing, see illegal immigrants can work in the USA as long as the employers don't check the E-Verify system and the immigrant presents a Social Security card. People can work for decades before a sting takes a company down that they find out that half the immigrants are using Social Security numbers of dead people or multiple people using the same number.

Cool eh?

I'm confused. Are you describing here a taxpayer-funded service that illegal immigrants choose not to avail themselves of? — Srap Tasmaner

Yes I most certainly am.
I have never said I agreed with any of these policies, I am just trying to give a real idea of what is going on, seeing as I live in a state that a lot of this is happening in.

@Maw @Baden @Srap Tasmaner
Please take 5 minutes to watch this video and try to understand the impact on our nation.
And I ask you, at what point does the necessity of self preservation come in?

The economics is a little more complicated than that. — Srap Tasmaner

They are speaking about immigrants not illegal immigrants. The whole issue gets a LOT more complicated when it comes to the illegal immigrants.

For instance, if you are here illegally and your husband beats you and your children, who are you going to call? To call the authorities would be damning themselves in the process. What happens if you as an illegal immigrant are mugged and raped? Who do you turn to?

The crimes within the illegal immigrant communities would blow your mind if they were only reported.

This is simply incorrect. This policy was implemented by the Trump administration, and it can be reversed by the Trump administration. Trump, surprise surprise, is lying. — Maw

You are correct in that the Trump administration "implemented" this policy but it was considered an option back in July of 2016 when we had tens of thousands of children being sent across the border without guardians. It was not "implemented" because of the damage that could be done to the children's psyche. I am not disputing the fact that in separating the children we are causing trauma. Just bear in mind that the parents entering illegally are aware of this policy. You are aware that they know what is happening at the entry points of our nations border, right?

When we have people seeking political asylum, in the numbers that we are, what do you expect? For us to leave them out in the sweltering heat? Have you seen what the temps are here in the desert? Have you seen the Wal*Mart Super centers that these kids are residing in? Do you really equate the two? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No fucking clue what point you are trying to drive here Tiff. I don't desire families to be left out in the "sweltering heat", nor do I desire families split up with parents being deported back to their home countries, while their young children are left in Walmart. Wise-up if you think these are the only two viable options for immigration. — Maw

The fucking idea I am "on about" is that the average wait time is up to 20 days. Have you ever gotten a really bad sunburn from a day at the beach? It would be not just traumatic to the children to leave them out in the elements but it would be down right deadly for anyone. That is what I am "fucking" going on about.

You do know that these people presenting themselves for political asylum KNOW that they might be separated and are coached repeatedly throughout their journey? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Given that this is a new policy, no. This is simply false. — Maw

If you take the time to read the citations I listed you would see that the immigrants are well aware of the policy being implemented.

I imagine this is false as well:
"Separately, in another indication that Trump’s hardline actions and rhetoric have had limited effect, the administration said Wednesday that border arrests topped 50,000 for a third straight month in May.That is roughly three times what they were a year earlier and higher than the levels seen during much of the Obama administration."

I have a hard time seeing that as being on the same level as "the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq". But please, do expand your correlation. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Actually, you are right here. I meant to correct myself earlier. This is the worst atrocity since the Trump administration's callous approach to the Puerto Rico hurricane. And that was the worst atrocity since Hurricane Katrina. No real "correlation" to draw from here, except the indifference Republican administrations seem to have for American minorities. — Maw

There is no correlation Maw. One is an act of Mother Nature and the other is the choice of free will.

Can I get a helmet emoticon?

This is not a simple difference of political ideologies; no matter where you stand on the issue any morally aware individual finds these tactics shocking, evil and way over the top. Yet here you are, acting like it is the same old conversation as always. — Jeremiah

It is over the top, it is a tactic but it's not the murderous gangs that these folks are fleeing from either. There is a process, there has to be a process.

It would be more honest to tell them directly what you think about them stealing your tax dollars in my view. — Baden

It would be more honest and if asked I probably would express it but that is likely why the topic has never come up. This particular friend, whose girlfriend is here illegally, and I go at political debates like it is a blood sport and I do wish to remain friends. So I respectfully stay away from the topic as there are topics that he stays away from knowing my history as a friend.

Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeseeeeeeeeeeee!
I love a good brie :up:

It gets really complicated, really fast.

Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

Which I also do around friends who are here in this country illegally. :zip:

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion and growing. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

If we are so messed up, then why are people trying to get into the USA, illegally if necessary?

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of your tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

Then why is anyone wanting to come here?

So because person X does not show up for court then your purposed solution is to take person's Y children away?

So that means if I run someone over then skip on bail we get to throw you in prison? Am I getting this right? I mean you are suggesting we punish unrelated individuals for someone's else crime, right? — Jeremiah

Not exactly. If you skip on bail, you get tossed into prison. If enough people skip bail, then the bail bondsman would go out of business and yes, coming up with bail would probably not be an option for many people.

I am not saying that the current should pay for the prior's crime. What I am saying is that it is possible to be taken advantage of and there comes a limit as to how much you can take care of others without losing sight of your own self preservation.

This is what you're supporting, Tiff. — Baden

I read the article but thank you for the highlight. I am a Mom so I do understand what the threat of that would mean to me. I am not in their situation and I do have EMPATHY for them and what they are fleeing.

But contrast that to those who remain after the Catch and release program whose children are now enrolled in school, receiving food stamps, medical care and any state aide that they qualify for because as a minor they have to be cared for by the state, legal resident or not.

So the taxes we pay are going not to improve our schools, to help our homeless or those who are hungry. No, they are being absorbed by the 'tax' that non legal citizens are putting on our social structure.

We can go back to treating it as a civil issue and not separate families. — Jeremiah

No, we cannot. Treating it as a civil issue depended on those who were issued a court date actually showing up. The majority of those issued a court date never showed.

You go back to doing what you did before. That's the answer. — Baden

Catch and release?

It's obvious what I would do, I would stop separating children from their parents because it's absolutely inhumane — Baden

We cannot house detained families together, do you understand why they separate the men from the children and women?

You need to understand that you can have border security without rampant cruelty. — Baden

Like what happened in Germany? :scream: Just let everyone in until your leader figures out that the country cannot handle the influx and then put up the barbed wire fencing?

I distinctly remember a golden hearted forum member who chose to help those fleeing and crossing his country and how quickly he was overwhelmed. :heart:

You seem to be incapable of realizing what's happening to these parents and children. It's sick. — Baden

Baden, I GET IT but exactly what would YOU do?
Attempts at 'Mother May I' and 'Simon Says' have already been exhausted.

Do you understand why the children are not housed with their fathers?

I get it, Tiff, you just can't see this people as human. That is very sad for you. — Baden

Really? Is that your take away from what I have said?

I get it, Tiff, you just can't see this people as human. That is very sad for you. — Baden

Come on Baden, don't say I have no empathy and then take it down.

The truth of the matter is that Trump is abusing children and destroying families to try and push his political agenda. He created this situation and now he is using these children as hostages. It is monstrous to anyone with a human soul. — Jeremiah

WOW! Abusing children and destroying families? I am sorry, when did Trump send an invitation to these parents offering to make their children hostages?

Tiff, this has nothing to do with the bloody weather. You don't have to baste the kids in honey and strap them to a pole on the middle of the desert in order not to rip them from their parents. It's crude and cruel and the Trump admin owns it fully. They didn't have to interpret the law this way and previous admins didn't. Besides they said they chose to do this as a deterrent. Now imagine it was you getting a young child of yours taken from you. Please do that just for a second before you come out with this partisan clap-trap. This goes way beyond dems vs. Republicans, it's a simple matter of empathy. — Baden

It doesn't have anything to do with the weather like living doesn't require air. The weather in Arizona is SURELY a factor (despite what you might think) but as I said it is not the ONLY factor. It is being used as a deterrent as decided by Jeff Sessions and there isn't squat anyone can do, empathy or not, until the message comes from the top.

It is entirely possible that Trump and Sessions are playing 'good cop, bad cop' but it does not change the simple logistics of the border. There is a border necessary and if it is not respected, what is the point of having a border? Why not just make it a free for all? Literally a free for all!

Also the policy of separating immigrant parents (illegal and legal alike) from their children is, to my mind, the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq. Not really sure why I'm the only one commenting on it here. — Maw

That policy was in affect during the Obama administration as well. When we have people seeking political asylum, in the numbers that we are, what do you expect? For us to leave them out in the sweltering heat? Have you seen what the temps are here in the desert? Have you seen the Wal*Mart Super centers that these kids are residing in? Do you really equate the two?

You do know that these people presenting themselves for political asylum KNOW that they might be separated and are coached repeatedly throughout their journey? There are volunteer lawyers who are on the Mexico side explaining the way it works, the possible separation and many still choose to go through. I have a hard time seeing that as being on the same level as "the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq". But please, do expand your correlation.

The children are not breaking the law so they cannot be detained and given a court date to appear before a judge to claim political asylum, however their parent or parents are old enough and are given a court date and detained (30 days max) before they are being held for an unreasonable amount of time and are set free. While the parents are detained for their court date, they are incarcerated and that is when the children are separated from their parents. It is against the law to house men and women together, regardless if they are married seeking asylum. There was a time when we would try to keep the mothers and the kids together and separating the men but there is simply no more room to do so AND it is a deterrent.

True it is a policy that Trump could change with the stroke of a pen but until he does that, we are stuck with what we are and for me? Someone who lives in the desert? I say do what it takes to get those seeking asylum out of the elements and the rest can be sorted out later. It is the same thing I would be saying in the bitter winters of Chicago. It won't do any good to refuse these people shelter of any kind. Included in these children centers are: three meals a day, snacks, bathrooms, AC, organized games, X-Boxes on BIG screen TV's, showers, hair cuts and I could go on but just for a moment think about this:

Imagine being a border guard or an Army reservist, who has been charged to care for these kids instead of walking the border fence, which might seem like a posh job until that guard goes home. He goes home to his own school age child who is the same age as the kids in the detainment center, yet can barely put enough food on the table for his own. His kid goes without an X-Box or an adult on duty all day, like the kids in the detainment center have.

It's a less than ideal situation but are there crimes against humanity happening?
Are there images of people ripping off their clothes in 115* heat, in an effort to "cool off" and promptly dying, coming across on your news source?
Are there pictures of Turkey Vultures circling overhead outside of the USA/Mexico border because the USA is acting in an inhumane manner?

@Arne
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!
We are glad you are here.

@Bitter Crank
Thank you for saying what I didn't have the time to say 'gently' :ok:

Hey, just a coincidence that James Comey is out of the country? :brow:

Into the other side such as Heaven as thought to be for many or just out of this reality into the one that they have created in their minds.

@raza
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!
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What a strange way to approach reality, don't you think? — Posty McPostface

See, I find thinking we know what "reality"is for me and you is a strange assumption. Everyone's reality is made up of their perceptions, so everyone's reality is different.