We didn't initiate the idea of changing. That came from members. We responded by polling and making suggestions, and that process led here. The community as a whole are apparently for change. It just happens it syncs with thoughts we've had for a long time concerning the dominance of the Shoutbox. — Baden

You are missing out the feedback of why good, decent, long term forum members are leaving the forum. The more that happens, the more homogenous in thought the forum will become.

Banno, this is a perfect example of another thread being born about Trump that has either been closed or merged into the Trump thread whose tally of replies has to be over 1k. When people respond curtly with a reference of having stated their position earlier on that thread, it becomes impossible to read back 40 pages to find it.

Having said that PF had a Politics sub forum that could only be accessed once you logged in which is also a possible option, software, and 100% agreement on permitting such a change.

Correction 2.9k replies to the Trump Thread.

:chin: pondering the meaning of life in a much more meaningful way than the chin ponder implies. This ponder is more spiritual in nature, than scientific in thought.

But I mean, why are we here? What is the reasoning behind our existence? To fulfill someone else's (our parent's) need to procreate? That seems a bit selfish when I think about it too long. Frankly once again it is when I am alone with my thoughts that unanswerable, philosophical questions/pondering/quandaries seem to occupy an otherwise gentle mind. Why in times of crisis do the unanswerable questions come to the forefront? Is it to show that there are other questions of the same magnitude, that still remain unanswered for a lot of us? If not all of us, if I am to include the absolute truth that none of us here knows what really happens after we cease living.

I agree it is a little over the top but she does need to jockey to a new position to remain proactive with the media.

Some of the gaffs she has made remind me of Gary Johnson's "Aleppo" answer. There is just no taking that gaff back.

I think a lot of it really has to come down to the members themselves striving for quality and not relying on us to enforce it, which might just end up driving even good posters away. I don’t think there’s an easy solution. — Michael

You're right it is a delicate balance. Are you aware of the reasons why the "good posters" of recent have left the forum?

It's a philosophy forum first and foremost, not a chat room. — Michael

A "chat room" is an interesting characterization of any thread other than the 'ShoutBox' thread.
I think I understand what is trying to be achieved and I just am wary of pulling that community thread back so far, that it snaps and the unraveling of the sense of community begins.

The death penalty being unpopular or popular hasn't changed that much in the last decade. The only recent delay has been the inability to order the medication necessary to meet the standard of a 'humane' execution, which is absurd in it's wording but I support the Pharm industry not wanting to produce an "execution" drug.

Whoa! I thought you were jorn doe and I was taken aback by some of your responses, in other threads because it just didn't seem like his kind of wording.
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum John!

I expect it will stay as is with the change in place for the foreseeable.
I have swapped the category positions of the Lounge and Feedback though, as you suggested above, to make the former a bit more highlighted (and it seems more logical to me anyway). Hope this is some compensation. — Baden

I appreciate your consideration and Thank you for the swap but please don't do it just for "compensation" sake.

Overall the change is relatively minor, and I'm sure everyone will get used to it (except Sapientia who's just a little crybaby) — Baden

I am just going to roll with it. I will say that over the years at PF as well as TPF, the movement and health of conversation in the shoutbox has been a pretty good indicator as to the health of the forum.
It did not go without notice that recently (since TL was banned) for whatever reason the moderators and admins were suddenly not nearly as active in the shoutbox, to which I can only guess was a 'tone down the interaction in the 'shoutbox' suggestion.

My real sticking point is that if members here, which we all are, cannot keep control over their participation in a thread like the "Trump" thread, that is their problem, not mine, nor the forums' as a whole. That was the logic applied to me.

It would seem as though the suggestion/request of management to me, on my interaction with other member(s)on the 'Gun Control' thread, was to just ignore the member(s) if I remain in attendance of the thread. I complied with the request and stopped interaction.

Why is that logic not being applied to those who cannot/or don't want to control their interaction on a political thread?

I second this suggestion. I'm seconding your second, not thirding Sapientia's first that you firstly seconded. — Hanover

Yes, but even at a total of three, it appears to not be enough to keep the change from happening that way.

I am also with timw and BC, don't fix what ain't broke.

At the very least The Lounge should be above Feedback but that is just my opinion.

I've just thought of a way to improve the site. What if all of the most active discussions appeared on the home page by default? Then it would be more convenient for members to access those discussions which they themselves most actively participate in, providing a benefit to the membership, based on their own activities, instead of an obstacle, imposed by those who want to direct them. — Sapientia

I second this suggestion.

I miss Paul. I hope he's doing well. — Caldwell

He is doing wonderfully Paul. I can pass on a message to him for you or if you want, you can send him a PM here @Paul and I will nudge him to check in on his messages here. :flower:

There are always posts - and occasionally posters - beneath the dignity of a response. And many worse than even that. — StreetlightX

And if I could add: there always will be a % of those whose responses are at times or always not worthy of you responding to. Even if the current % were banned for low quality posts, there would be an equal number of new members that fill up that empty spot. It is just the nature of a community.

Based on the quality of his prose, I suspect apo of being a journalist — Bitter Crank

He hasn't yet appeared on this thread but I have had my suspicions about him too. :zip:

I voted to keep it as is.

I don't buy you being a victim of anything here, Tiff. But your answer is clear from this. That is very sad for you. — Baden

I am not a victim of anything Baden, nor will I allow myself to be labeled as such. I am remaining and will remain in a pro-active position on this. You are right it is only your judgement but it is a judgement all the same which you are entitled to.
What you are not entitled to is label me a racist.
And if you think you are? That is YOUR problem, not mine.

Please, it is not lost on me as to the reasons others have been banned or willing left the forum based on this very issue of labeling others.

So no, I will not fall victim. I will stand strong in that a person should be judged by a totality of their actions and not one action alone.

Always assumed I wouldn't be here now, so filled my life as best I could. Where the **** do you go from here? — texaskersh

Hiya texaskersh and welcome to The Philosophy Forum!
You are not alone in the question of "Where the fuck do I go from here?"
It's a rather crowded crossroad in life at times.

:clap: Well said!

What's the problem saying that? Why play games with it? — Baden

Because it is not a game for me and I am not going to play this Trump "Gotcha" game with you.
I am being bluntly honest with you when I say I am VERY uncomfortable with your sweeping judgement on others being different kinds of "ist's" and it shuts down communication every time you do it. I do not wish to be labeled and I am very cautious with my allowing your feelings into mine right now. I do not wish to depart the forums over a "label" being applied to me.

And no, Trump is not going to change that, ArguingWAristotleTiff — Baden

Nor am I expecting Trump to be able reverse time and what the ACA did to our medical community, no one can.

I know. At the same time I think voting for Trump was and will be a mistake on every level that matters: justice, fairness and equity. He's the antithesis of that. He's already harming US industries with his tariffs using your tax money to cover the losses. — Benkei

The alternative was not going to change anything either. ACA aka Obama Care was dead before it was ever implemented. The entire system has been upended and all of the medical community that COULD get under the umbrella of a for profit mega merger hospital, did. There is no way to unravel this cluster fuck of a medical system now. I do have some experience in the medical billing and insurance reimbursements and I can tell you that Obama Care dis jointed our health care system.

So, just imagine the piece of mind I can have if I'm in an accident. No medical bills and no worry I'll lose my job (firing during illness is illegal). It's why I find a 52% income tax acceptable. — Benkei

I need not imagine as I see my children leaving America for the Netherlands and New Zealand for the peace of mind you are reporting. Again, actions speak louder than words and in this case their actions of relocating to another country, speak louder than my words of "I love you" ever could.

It's actually depressing as fuck but that's for me to handle.

EDIT: And he's a racist, that should count for something. — Benkei

How much should that "count"?

At least, at the very least, Obama made healthcare affordable for people which gave many Americans one less thing to worry about while they were struggling to make a living. Trump is the asshole trying to take that away (and doing so by illegal means by the way, by ordering departments not to execute or frustrate legal obligations under the law!) so he and his rich buddies can pay less taxes. — Benkei

Obama Care: To which our premium was $2,500 a month for a family of 4 with an annual deducible of $5,000 per person up to a total of $20,000 out of pocket before the policy were to cover 80% of any approved procedures. VS the crap shoot of paying a tax penalty for not purchasing a product and paying cash for all medical, dental, psyche and chiro visits.

They're - by and large - not racist — Benkei

I hope you KNOW that in your heart of hearts about me because it is labels like "racist" that get applied so liberally on this thread that make it feel very unsafe to discuss what is really going on, above the fray and noise of the "Gotcha of the day".

I am starting to understand why others have drifted away when the labels start being applied.

Let's ask. Hey ArguingWAristotleTiff and @Hanover. Would you rule out voting for trump again if he has said the N-word? — Benkei

I think the safest way for me to answer such an absurd question is to use your knowledge expressed about what you already know to be the answer:

This is old news and known during election period. It's not going to change anything. People continue to surprise me when they think trump's behaviour is going to make him any less popular with his base. It's not going to happen. — Benkei

Nobody cares. — Benkei

Now, this one I will address. You are right, not only does nobody care, the somebodies of us that do care, got tired of jumping through hoops, putting our head in a Lion's mouth just to put food on our tables during the Obama administration.

Three out of the four members of my tribe are attending college which is a FANTASTIC feeling as we move forward in life. That one achievement, 3 of 4 in school represents two things that I would like you to understand. First it means that once again the small business sector is growing and NicK alone can provide for our family of 4 while we focus on learning AND the bittersweet fact that each of us students qualify for Pell Grants . Now, don't get me wrong, I have always supported the Pell Grants purpose, I just never thought me or my children would qualify for "The Pell Grant is a need-based financial aid for students who belong to lower income families. The Federal Government earmarks certain funds for this grant each year. The quantum of funds varies from year to year. The grants are disbursed to the eligible students from this fund. However, there are certain criteria that one must meet in order to be eligible for the grant."

So yeah, I care, I care a SHITLOAD about what is going on with our President and our country. Actions speak louder than words any day of the week and Benkei, the years of desperation under the Obama administration brought us and brought me to my knees. When my Mother In law's trunk loads of food, toiletries drew further apart and my pride hit rock bottom I was directed to the Bishop's Pantry at the Mormon church for food to put on my table. We had to dilute every investment IRA just to pay our mortgage, which for 18 months was more than 60 days delinquent, 6 that were 90 days late. We lost our curbside trash service because we couldn't afford the fee, which meant once a week for 7 years, I hauled our trash on a trailer to the local dump and let me tell you, it is a very humbling experience. We sold 21k dollars invested in our 3 horses for a single dollar because we could no longer feed them.

I am sorry, I DO have a LOT to care about.

I remember being on vacation on a beach in California with family when this happened. — Maw

When the outage took place on the East Coast? No better friend than the Pacific sunset at that point if you normally dwell in Manhattan. :up:

I have a friend who fell asleep and woke to the black out. He had friends in high rises that had to walk 30 flights of stairs to get in and out of their condo. He said it was the wildest of times to be on the street and it took him back to his childhood because everyone was outside as sweltering as it was inside.

Were satellites involved? — Benkei

Mmm no. But my example was what happens in a rolling black out or a total outage power, the cascading affect it has on our nation. Losing our logistical control at the clip we are at now would cause a slow to a grind for a lot of our daily functions we take for granted.

@Benkei
Oh look what came up on my news feed...

Okay, I admit it: I'm a regular contributor to the Akashic Records. — rachMiel

We caught one!!!

Now, where is that Wikipedia editor? Hmmm.....?

That might be the case but you were talking about banking transactions not cellular to cellular calls. Cellular networks don't need to transmit to satellites either and in the Netherlands are directed over landlines, as it's much cheaper. So, like all internet data, for the most part, it does not go over satellite since satellite bandwidth is hella expensive (I should know, having worked for the EU equivalent of NASA, remember? :wink: ) — Benkei

No, I haven't forgotten for a moment about the EU's NASA but I thought maybe....Okay with that hard of an accurate blow to my theory should at least been started with a "darlin" or a "sweetheart" just to soften it a bit!
Hey, I thought you spent some time studying how to mitigate feelings being dented when in small group communication...

The control over our power grid again I assert it would be a timing issue that would cause surges in power and rolling black outs. "If" that were to happen, the cascading affect or the secondary and tertiary impact on our hospitals, police stations, fire department would be crippling. All of our first responders are using GPS which is why they are able to communicate via truck to truck rather than to dispatch and back. Again, I am not saying it is impossible but it will slow down the warp speed in which we have become dependent on. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Power companies can and still do predict power output and usage on a variety of predictive models and have failsafe's to reroute overcapacity across the network. While satellites nowadays can help in ascertaining the amount of solar panels, they are not directly necessary for the work power companies do to manage the grid. — Benkei

That one word is where our Achilles Heel is located. As I explained to my son, we don't know what we don't know. We didn't know that airplanes could be used as big freakin missiles loaded with hundreds of people before 9.11 either. Have you ever seen the movie 'Fail Safe' with Henry Fonda? It's worth a watch.

As to the first responders, I don't know what the US uses but here there is a system that makes setting up a private network possible which doesn't rely on an uplink to a satellite for the local calls between trucks but would require the satellite once connecting to dispatch. But if the satellite goes out, they can still use regular cellphones. So still no biggie. — Benkei

For some reason I cannot get you to understand what an impact "still no biggie" has when it is complicated by the slow down to a grind and how that impacts our current ability to provide life saving support.

GPS plays a crucial role our ability to control logistical control over the delievering of our food and fuel across America. I am not sure how it works in the Netherlands, if you are all still on street corners with your veggies and into the Butchers to get your meat but here in the USA, many of us get those items from one grocery store. Whether it comes in from the West Coast off a container ship or from Chicago out to the rest of the nation, most of it is delivered by train and then by truck. Yes, the trains, though they will not run on time, will run on a set track that does not depend upon GPS. But once those trains arrive at their distribution center, those products are loaded onto trucks that move out in every direction, across our nation. Those trucks will no longer have GPS and yes they will have maps but it is the slow down that is going to be our Achilles Heel. Puerto Rico was a recent example of how crippling the ability to move food and fuel to the needed areas was and how many folks died from the cascading affects of no AC and medications/medical care being able to move it out to remote areas. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I don't see the issue here. The speed of living hasn't increased to such an extent that stopping to look at a paper map is going to be a problem. This seems to be an exaggeration.

The first responders and logistics are supported by avoiding congestion and the like but it's not the end of the world. This will cause a few deaths but it's not going to cause chaos. — Benkei

"A few deaths"... <shaking my head in disbelief> chaos will ensue.

Finally, you need 3 satellites for a positioning and 4 for an accurate positioning. So the system is operational with 18 satellites, preferably 24. There are 33 in operation now. Then there's also Galileo and Glonass, which can work as a back-up. That's a lot of satellites you need to destroy at ludicrous expenses, which itself would be dependent on GPS to accurately fire to begin with, before you really start disabling people's ability to use GPS or its alternatives. — Benkei

I have heard the cost/risk ratio and I am still for finding a way to protect the satellites from nefarious actions. There are a few prototypes of defending one but what it would cost to defend the core of the system? I don't know. I keep hearing it isn't financially sound but I am still not convinced.

Air traffic control is done on the basis of radar not GPS. — Benkei

My indian has offered to set up an appointment with the Professor that teaches the ATC program at his college and see if He can bridge my gap in logic about this because my indian is convinced that the planes would be fine and we would be able to adapt quickly enough to keep safety in line with the "possible" cascading affects.

I call a degree of bs or better for him a degree of naivety, as I have seen when a simple power outage in New York or LA can do to it's people
AND
those battlefield operations that "might" be effected? Those my friend, are going to be muy importante when a war is started by a malicious attack on OUR satellite system.

Can the Netherlands handle what little chaos is here on Earth, while the American's who were laughed yesterday and today, are in the middle of executing a plan that will retaliate against those who attacked OUR satellite system?

Every banking transaction.
The control over our power grid.
The logistical control over our delivering of food and fuel.
Our ability to control commercial air travel.
Battlefield operations. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

The first four aren't true. That's all landlines. The last one is greatly helped by GPS but not dependent on it. — Benkei

My dear friend, I am not sure you realize just how dependent we have become on the communication through satellites. Here in the USA, many people, MANY people no longer have "land lines" because they have a cell phone. Most land line owners are people who work from home and those over 45+. It might be different over in the Netherlands but my Indian that was just in Europe said that the cell phone reception there was like two tin cans and a string between. Here? If the satellites were knocked out cell phones will be affected. Even if we were able to time stamp our transactions with the rest of the world via landline phones, there would be a huge lag which would halt any trading of stocks or monetary exchanges.

The control over our power grid again I assert it would be a timing issue that would cause surges in power and rolling black outs. "If" that were to happen, the cascading affect or the secondary and tertiary impact on our hospitals, police stations, fire department would be crippling. All of our first responders are using GPS which is why they are able to communicate via truck to truck rather than to dispatch and back. Again, I am not saying it is impossible but it will slow down the warp speed in which we have become dependent on.

GPS plays a crucial role our ability to control logistical control over the delievering of our food and fuel across America. I am not sure how it works in the Netherlands, if you are all still on street corners with your veggies and into the Butchers to get your meat but here in the USA, many of us get those items from one grocery store. Whether it comes in from the West Coast off a container ship or from Chicago out to the rest of the nation, most of it is delivered by train and then by truck. Yes, the trains, though they will not run on time, will run on a set track that does not depend upon GPS. But once those trains arrive at their distribution center, those products are loaded onto trucks that move out in every direction, across our nation. Those trucks will no longer have GPS and yes they will have maps but it is the slow down that is going to be our Achilles Heel. Puerto Rico was a recent example of how crippling the ability to move food and fuel to the needed areas was and how many folks died from the cascading affects of no AC and medications/medical care being able to move it out to remote areas.

Now Benkei, if you don't believe the affect that a loss of GPS will have on our planes in the air as well as on the ground, I am beginning to doubt your logic about this. Yes, it is true that commercial pilots are taught how to fly their planes via the control panel and by sight but the Tower would have to manually be keeping track of these planes and landing them visually but when they are landing every 60 seconds on a good day? Think of the back log, the circling, the major backup with plane loads of people trying to get clearance to land. I have been debating this here at the ranch and my youngest who is a Sophomore in College said that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to do but it has been done. To which I guessed he was referring to 9.11 which he was and I agreed with him. Sure we could get, along with other countries support, specifically Canada, ALL of our planes in the air, on the ground with a couple of hours but then what?

The last one, the battlefield operations is by far the most important one when it comes to the protection of our citizens. Even if only one of my scenarios above, were to by some snowball's chance in Hell to actually come to fruition, we would be screwed, for a while...

But only for a while, IF, (which my son insists on interjecting) a malicious attack was successful. His logic is because satellites are a lot cheaper to make, launch and successfully complete it's mission to enter into the web of satellite communication than it would be to successfully take out a Satellite with any degree of accuracy with a missile.

Not bad for a kid turning 20 but having lived a few more years, I believe that it is the "unknown" risks that we really cannot do anything about but the known? The even possible, remote chance?
It's better to take out an insurance policy, clear a defendable space around what you wish to protect before the wildfire takes hold then to get caught with your pants down, saying "Who would have thought that THIS could ever happen?"

I'd also say that happiness is just as real when you experience something for yourself and never share that experience in conversation with another person. — MPen89

I would agree with you on the happiness being just as real when you experience it alone and never share it. I think maybe for me it is a feeling of 'contentment' than it is for "happiness" as happiness is a feeling and it can and usually is fleeting where being content where you are, with who you are is a much more solid position to aspire to. Thoughts?

@RainyDay
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!
I, personally, have been waiting for you! :pray:

I do mean "The Blessed Life"! Do you have access or a copy of it? I would like to have one of it for myself. Kids give us many more chapters to write! :wink:

Do you have a copy of the short story contest winner? I would love to read it. I remember Benkei's something to Oslo and that was an awesome writing too. You are both very gifted writers, each in your own area. I would enjoy reading your 'precautionary logic and a policy of moderation' perspective if you wish to share it here or link it up.
Speaking of links, I personally think the thoughts about the silver/shiny fish that was shared on personal autograph book, were the most thought/feeling provoking words that I had read in a while. Those too were lost to the sea change of PF.

He made a return. — Waya

Whack a what??

Could you ban Trump for the same reasons, from the country?

:smirk: — creativesoul

You do realize who that would leave in command right? :scream:

There are actually a few good writers here but any that are published, I am not so sure.
@Benkei @Tobias have co-written a paper that is worthy of publishing but I am not even sure if it is accessible as it was in PF. Maybe one of them have a copy of the paper or someone can extract it from what we can access. :pray:

I believe it is called "The Good Life"...

Who? :scream: :nerd: — Baden

Look in the mirror my friend! :clap:

Yeah, figured as much. — Anthony

Ahh but it did bait in one of my suspects.... :up: