Furthermore, there are good psychiatrists and bad psychiatrists — Noah Te Stroete

This...

I rather like to back away with the discussion on Nazism trope

I love the correction. I wonder why some of you are so busy correcting members on online discussion boards when you could be taking professorships at esteemed universities. But yes I did mean:

" Because more people are still dying or by domestic terrorist than international? — christian2017

Shortsighted because I look at the state of things on a global scale compared to just the US? I — I like sushi

We're having a discussion and therefore if you're postulating a claim that is meant to be plausible, you could at least substantiate your claims with evidence, not jargon. If you haven't noticed we're beyond the realm of having a complete philosophical discussion filled with dialectical arguments and jargon and word manipulation. So far your claims which are general are postulated under the supposed premise that globally, your position regarding the greater Muslim community is correct. I've challenged you and the OP to prove so and to no avail have you supported your arguments with actual evidence. Instead you want to maintain your dialectical stance.

I’m shortsighted because you’ve traveled somewhere? — I like sushi

No, you're short sighted because you haven't traveled, doesn't matter what I think however when you travel and actually meet Muslims from abroad, your position is wider than the localized viewpoints that you have of the world.

Shortsighted because I am well aware that “Conservative” doesn’t mean mostly homophobic, bigoted and/or anti-abortion? — I like sushi

I never equated the two, although there are many members among that base that hold those viewpoints. More importantly this senseless back and forth I am having with you is nonsense, so you're right. Once you begin to substantiate your claims with evidence outside using dialectical arguments to form your own "truism" then we can begin to have a productive debate otherwise I'm done with the back and forth arguments that cannot produce substance from your end.

Clarify

I don't think so. At least the government doesn't. — ssu

I just posted an article regarding this but let me show you again:

"According to FBI data, 150 Americans were arrested for planning to engage in acts of domestic terrorism in 2017, compared to 110 international suspects; in 2018, the ratio was 120 to 100."

When it comes to double standards in the United States, it seems that the goal posts tend to move when proponents of terrorism or terrorist acts are broken down by race. In regards to the Huffington post in the media there is the phenomena of categorizing acts in relation to terrorism based on the race of the individual. The Huffington Post cites such contradiction in the following:

"Early Sunday afternoon, Devin Kelley, a 26-year-old white male, walked into First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas with an AR-15 rifle and killed 26 people while wounding 20 others. Victims ages ranged from 1 to 72 years old. The scene was horrifying and heartbreaking but familiar.


According to data from the Gun Violence Archive, it was the 307th mass shooting in the United States this year......


If the attack is perpetrated by someone of the Islamic faith, the president immediately labels it terrorism and calls for new laws to be instituted and old ones abolished in order to make sure no more evil brown people worm their way into our pristine utopia. When the mass murderer is a white person, which is the most common scenario, it’s nearly always framed as a mental health issue. It’s never terrorism. Terrorism is something brown people do. And there are never any solutions proposed. Trump acknowledges the tragedy, sends his thoughts and prayers and then essentially says, it was a crazy guy ― what can you do?"

Source:https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-terrorism-if-youre-brown-its-mental-health_b_5a0098bce4b076eaaae271a6

Actually the security apparatus of the US government has taken a well balanced view on what are the terrorist threats to America. — ssu

That is the problem from my vantage point the American government doesn't. Because people are still dying by domestic terrorist than international. Citing my source, you don't realize that this administration is pouring more resources into international terrorism more specifically terrorism carried about by Muslim fanatics than white nationalist. Did you not forget what Trump said after 50 people in both mosques were killed when asked the question on whether white nationalism was a growing issue?



Apparently the focus of this administration and its concern in the media does not reflect the FBI opinion. If Ahmed went into a Catholic church and killed 50 people, the court of public opinion in the states would most certainly view this as terrorism due to the fact that there is a suspect and his name is Ahmed. White guy who is a right wing nationalist does the same, we are looking at his mental status.

The rest of your post is duly noted.

You say on one hand that most, if not all, conservatives are bigoted homophobes — I like sushi

The truth is the pursuit of laws here in the United States (conservatives are trying to create legislation to make it illegal for abortion just recently they're trying to make having a fetal heartbeat grounds for one to not have an abortion). In addition this is the political lean which tries to move goal posts by arguing about terrorism but statistically its adherents are the main proponents of domestic terror. So no, it is not deflection it is speaking fact. Where it becomes a problem for you is whether it is logical to say most, all, or some.

onsidering I said it seemed like you were only able to see things through a US lens and then you reply talking about home grown terrorists (US),reports in the NY Times (US) and some other talk about “Americans killed by domestic terrorists”. — I like sushi

Yes because I am speaking from an American position because from where I sit in the media, Americans are the ones with the issues concerning so-called "Islamic terrorism" yet turn a blind eye to the domestic terrorist. Now even if you were to take away the American position and speak generally you'd understand that the mathematical numbers do not support the general presupposition of that morally speaking the West is superior and that there is some intrinsic issue with Islam. This is just downright bigoted and not supported by facts.

Please consider this gives reasonable weight to my comment about your view being through a US lens only. — I like sushi

Because I'm an America like I said previously and I live here. If you're not going to supply a general worldview that gives weight in support of the OP then I can only go by my own perspective just as you are doing yours.

I can only assume you accidentally deleted some of the text you meant to post in the quote above? — I like sushi

Huh?

I ask because it doesn’t make much sense, but you seem to be trying to insult me? — I like sushi

No. What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what we think about the West with respect to the world and more specifically with the general Muslim community is largely due to the fact that many of you have not traveled outside your respective country to actually get to know other humans on the side of the globe as I have. I've learned long enough that our cultural perceptions regarding Muslims and other minority groups are largely due to media skewing facts and fear mongering.

Look, I'm not trying to insult you, but your worldview regarding people of different cultures and religions is very shortsighted not to mention the slightest bit correct. Are there extremist who call themselves Muslims and are there issues within the Muslim community outside the United States and other western countries? Yes. But the fact of the matter is, is that the OP has an agenda and judging by the Op's fascination with talking about Islam, I'm willing to bet they have anti-Islam sentiments and not some real philosophical issue.

To be fair, no.

I have a question, why are clinical psychologists/psychiatrists such failures at compassion and generally failures as human beings with more mental issues than the patients they treat, and why are they so arrogant while simultaneously so confused about the nature of their profession? — whollyrolling

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're generalizing quite a bit. That is a lot of people to put in one category. Clinical professionals are as diverse like any other professional who practices. Which is why I encourage people who have issues with therapists to go and get another one. Unfortunately, some people's experiences are so bad that one experience may keep someone from getting another therapist. So I cannot speak for the thousands of clinicians in the world.

So, you're saying you paid a lot of money so that you can claim you are an "expert"? — yupamiralda

No. I actually gave a decent brief description of my background in the beginning, failure to read it may be due to a lack of not utilizing the complete function of your frontal lobe.

No one makes these hilariously straw-man claims — Maw

This

:up:

Now, the practice of psychiatry in the West today is not as extreme as in Nazism, but there are parallels. — boethius

This is all I need to know....

I've heard the anti-Muslim immigration and to be honest, I support it, — Judaka

This is why such individuals who think like this fail at life...

"And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah, who created them, if it should be Him that you worship" — Mr Phil O'Sophy

Of course I knew this, my point was merely to show how stupid evangelical Christians were/are.

It is kind of backwards to espouse views about conservatives being mostly bigoted and homophobic on one hand yet defending a religion, the members of whom applaud terrorism quite openly in numerous countries with high muslim populations, yet you’re willing to lump together others to suit your agenda. — I like sushi

I have no agenda. With respect to terrorism, white nationalism is more of a danger than terrorism espoused by Muslim extremists:

"On Wednesday, the Anti-Defamation League released a report finding that attackers with ties to right-wing extremist movements killed at least 50 people in 2018. That was close to the total number of Americans killed by domestic extremists, meaning that the far right had an almost absolute monopoly on lethal terrorism in the United States last year."

Source:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/homegrown-terrorists-2018-were-almost-all-right-wing/581284/


Report: Domestic Terrorism Is Still a Greater Threat Than Islamic Extremism

"According to FBI data, 150 Americans were arrested for planning to engage in acts of domestic terrorism in 2017, compared to 110 international suspects; in 2018, the ratio was 120 to 100......

The rise in domestic terrorism — as profiled in a captivating New York Times Magazine report from 2018 — is largely driven by an uptick in far-right extremism. Of the 263 acts of domestic terrorism that occurred between 2010 and the end of 2017, 92, around a third, were committed by Americans on the far right. “If you have politicians saying things like our nation is under attack, that there are these marauding bands of immigrants coming into the country, that plays into this right-wing narrative,” Gary LaFree, a criminologist at the University of Maryland, told the Post. “They begin to think it’s okay to use violence.”

Source:http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/domestic-terror-still-greater-threat-than-islamic-extremism.html

No agenda necessary, just speaking facts.

I do imagine that the vast majority of muslims in western countries are perfectly respectable people with perfectly respectable ideas and views (firsthand experience would back this up). — I like sushi

So I take it, if they're not in western countries they're not respectful of others views?

You seem obsessed with viewing all human affairs through a US lens. — I like sushi

You seem to lack the intellectual depth at providing a correct worldview of religion. This is not just anecdotal its facts a common trait by someone who has never traveled outside their own house let alone to another country.

Tell us then, from authority, what the obligation of any Muslim is with respect to a jihad. — tim wood

In understanding obligatory Jihad, one must understand what Jihad means in context to hadith/Qur'an. I'm no scholar, but from my limited understanding of Jihad which means struggle, the greater Jihad is the spiritual maintenance of oneself when they are engaged in the world. Maintaining their duties as Muslims such as prayer, paying the "poor rate," being kind, going to work, having the right mind and mentality etc. An argument could be made being a Muslim of sound mind and that is rightly guided means one is in a struggle for Jihad. Military campaigns are minor when it comes to the concept of Jihad as opposed to the greater Jihad which is the struggle within oneself:

"Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: "This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad," which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment."

Source:http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

if there are different kinds. — tim wood

There are only two conceptually, the minor (military, diplomacy, economic etc) and major (struggle with oneself spiritually and religiously).

I'm thinking that jihads and fatwas are binding on Muslims, ignored at the peril of the individual ignoring it, whether spiritual peril or material or both. — tim wood

Unfortunately, fatwas or religious edicts have been the subject of controversy, and even some are just downright abnormal. I was actually looking for some popular ones but came across a New York times article that discusses some ridiculous ones:

"CAIRO — First came the breast-feeding fatwa: It declared that the Islamic restriction on unmarried men and women being together could be lifted at work if the woman breast-fed her male colleagues five times. Then came the urine fatwa: It said that drinking the urine of the Prophet Muhammad was deemed a blessing........

For many Muslims, fatwas, or religious edicts, are the bridge between the principles of their faith and modern life. They are supposed to be issued by religious scholars who look to the Koran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad for guidance.

While the more sensational pronouncements grab attention, the bulk of the fatwas involve the routine of daily life. In Egypt alone, thousands are issued every month.

The controversy in Cairo has been more than just embarrassing. It comes at a time when religious and political leaders say there is a crisis in Islam because too many fatwas are being issued and many rely on ideology more than learning."

Source:https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/world/africa/11iht-fatwa.4.6098135.html

So as you can see, a lot of these so-called religious scholars trying to bring people back into the fold of Islam largely are seemingly influenced by their own self-perception of the world and by politics. Much like how local mayors can present a city ordinance, similarly the same is said for the so-called scholars, the problem with that is the people in various Muslim countries are under obligation to observe them.

That is, I know enough about Christianity to know that people who reasonably and with reason call themselves Christians can reasonably disagree on a lot of things, without in their own Christianity risking either their faith or their salvation, such as they may be. — tim wood

That is debatable. If we are talking about reason, then where is the reason behind right to life and death penalty? What is the reason behind evangelicals thinking a zygote is a human and has the capacity and same rights as a human? Much less the capacity and rights like that of a new born baby? What about Christians who drink poison and handle venomous snakes? Does that sound reasonable to you, or are you making an anecdotal reference to the Christians you know versus the Muslims you barely or don';t know?

As someone who has grown up Christian for most of his childhood into adult life I've been subjected to some strange behaviors of Christians who didn't seem to reason. Very often many Christians seemed to have castigated others simply because they are not of the faith. How is this reasonable? You'd find many Christians and Muslims who are conservative are very much the same.

If a priest instruct me to murder, I do not feel or think that either my faith or salvation such as they may be are in any danger from my not complying with the instruction. Can a Muslim say the same? — tim wood

Muslims are like you and me here in the states. They go to basketball games, and do daily activities all the damn time and you rarely hear about it. Crime in the United States are committed by more Christian Americans than any other religious group. Sure there are more Christians here in the states but going back to what you're saying about reason, it sounds like more American Christians act more unreasonable than there Muslim counterparts. Arguing otherwise comes from a position of bias because the research does not lie:

Americans are more likely to be attacked by far-right terrorists than Islamists

"(According to the Investigative Fund, an independent journalism organisation, “far-right plots and attacks outnumber Islamist incidents by almost two to one.”)

And the reason for Trump’s PC position? It’s straightforward – if scary. “Radical Islamic terrorists” aren’t part of his base. “White supremacist terrorists” are."

Source:https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2018/03/americans-are-more-likely-be-attacked-far-right-terrorists-islamists

The question to you: so, as with Muslims? Or different - and how? — tim wood

Well, I'm not Muslim but I believe I grow as I learn and continue to exist in life. I believe the average Muslim at least from my personal experience as well as in the religious text, are responsible for their own soul which is why they are full aware of their own religious eschatology.

Sorry the long post.

Comparing the Vatican to Saudi Arabia — Hanover

There are 50 Muslim countries. Your position was generalized towards other theocracies but you are only talking about one theocratic government.

The problem with this line of discussion is that it is terribly disingenuous because it inaccurately cites me and then it accuses me of changing facts to support my claim. — Hanover

Because in reality I knew you'd move goal posts. In addition to that I knew you were heading towards the "No True Scotsman" argument as you emphasized:

but there are obviously those misguided people who wrongly do things in the name of Christianity. — Hanover

Since the emphasis was added, can we also emphasize that out of the 1.8 billion Muslims in the government including some of the Muslims in political power we can say the same for the particularly misguided ones or do we not extend that same favor?

and I didn't deny that occurs with Muslims as well. — Hanover

You didn't deny but you did not affirm the position either. you're affirming the position of Christians yet you're not doing it for Muslims which leads me to believe you're leaving it ambiguous. I was very clear in my position that there are Christians who do commit to violence using their religion just like any other faith in the world.

This is all ad hom. Your analysis of me and of yourself, even if correct, is irrelevant, designed only to self-congratulate and offend. — Hanover

Because when I am going to substantiate a claim I rather use evidence to substantiate a claim as opposed to using dialectical arguments to support my position. If I'm going to say X is true, i need evidence to support that X is true. I do not mean to offend you but it is quite frustrating that you've taken over the OP's position right after you proclaim to have said that at most, you disagree with the OP, several responses later, I find myself thinking that you're position and the Op's position is the same, you're just articulating it differently using conjecture and jargon.

There is an inextricable link to smoking and mental illness. The following is from a research article on the issues of having mental illness and smoking:

"The devastating consequences of tobacco use among smokers with mental illness are evident. Smokers with serious mental illness are at increased risk for cancer, lung disease, and cardiovascular disease, and they die 25 years sooner, on average, than Americans overall. Tobacco use also complicates psychiatric treatment. Components in tobacco smoke accelerate the metabolism of some antidepressant and antipsychotic medications, resulting in lowered blood levels and probably reduced therapeutic benefit. Studies have revealed higher hospitalization rates, higher medication doses, and more severe psychiatric symptoms among patients with schizophrenia who smoke than among those who do not. Though the mechanism is unclear, tobacco use also is one of the strongest predictors of future suicidal behavior.1 Smoking results in substantial social and financial costs to patients, their families, and society. As greater restrictions on exposure to secondhand smoke are implemented in many public areas, tobacco use is further isolating an already-marginalized group."

Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4457781/

He explained to me that as a Muslim he would be obliged - it would be his duty - to kill me, a non-Muslim, in the event of a declaration of a jihad to that effect. This well before 9-11, before even the Iraq wars. — tim wood

No matter how academically intelligent someone is, they are still susceptible in developing or lack thereof poor social skills. Now, this ONE encounter I'm sure left a bad taste in your mouth. After all, if some south east Asian told me according to their faith anyone who wore a Cowboys sweatshirt needs to be decapitated I'd be disturbed.

I draw from this that Islam, in terms of modern Western morality, is about 800 years in arrears of Christianity. — tim wood

So you drew your opinion regarding Islam from one encounter? I'd hate to see what you think of other people in the world if you encountered someone of a certain demographic and the encounter was negative.

I draw this generalization because my interlocutor at the time was both intelligent and well-informed. — tim wood

So wait, did you draw the inference that because he was intelligent academically this somehow traverse to be knowledgeable and accurate socially? My friend this is the wrong time to draw these types of parallels. I am no scholar in Islam but I know enough of the basics of Islam plus kalam plus parts of Hadfith and Shari'ah Law to know that killing someone unjustly and without provocation nor in the interest of defending one's property is a sin in Islam. your Pakistani friend is for the lack of a better word, a dumbass and I'm sure if I met him and challenged him to recite Suratul Al-Ihklas off the top of his head he wouldn't know it.

And in passing, in the past few days the Sultan of Brunei has decreed death for adulterers and homosexuals. The idea is that Muslim apologists the world around have work to do in cleaning up their own houses. We all do, to be sure, but some more than others, a lot more. — tim wood

The problem with your story is you took the example of one dumbass Pakistani who is more than likely Muslim by culture than Muslim by spirituality. Averroes the philosopher believed that using one's intellect is central to the tenants of Islam. Your friend, whom you referred laughably as intelligent said that if he was obliged to kill you, he would. Obviously he isn't exercising the most important faculty of the brain which is his frontal lobe considering that off the impulse and encouragement of another, he would take the life of a human being. When in fact the Qur'an says the following:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God does not love transgressors” (2:190).

Which means to defend yourself against those that mean you harm, but if they stop then you must stop and not transgress.

"take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that you may learn wisdom" (Koran 6:151).

"that if anyone killed a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land" (Koran 5:32).

Yes, for all intensive purposes your Pakistani friend was an idiot of his own faith and not as smart as you thought he was. Like I said before, there are plenty of Muslims who are Muslim by culture and not by spirituality or religion. I'm no Muslim, but its funny how I see so many Muslims saying dumb shit like your friend all the time as if they know their religion but what they are doing is parroting shit they learn from either their family, or their immediate community.

What you said is all facts. Ironic people don't do the research to see this.

I objected to theocracies as a general proposition, regardless of whether they were terrorist. — Hanover

Ok. I misunderstood you, this I understand.

Theocratic rule is antithetical to the Western democratic norms, which I do believe superior to Muslim theocratic norms. — Hanover

Well as a general rule wouldn't you say without singling out a single theocracy, that generally theocratic rule itself is antithetical to democracy?

And, as I noted, and which you didn't respond to — Hanover

I missed it.

(2) the Vatican is a tiny administrative state without any inhabitants that don't choose to be there, so there is minimal oppression there. — Hanover

And you know this because its not in the news or have you been there? It is still a theocracy and going by your position regardless whether there is a presence of oppression isn't theocracy socially and politically against the foundation of what democracy stands for anyway?

I don't believe that Christianity in its modern form supports terrorism — Hanover

Really? You seem biased:

6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ignores

1. The Army of God

"A network of violent Christianists that has been active since the early 1980s, the Army of God openly promotes killing abortion providers—and the long list of terrorists who have been active in that organization has included Paul Jennings Hill (who was executed by lethal injection in 2003 for the 1994 killings of abortion doctor John Britton and his bodyguard James Barrett), John C. Salvi (who killed two receptionists when he attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Brookline, Massachusetts in 1994) and Eric Rudolph, who is serving life in prison for his role in the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta in 1996 and other terrorist acts. Rudolph, in fact, has often been exalted as a Christian hero on the Army of God’s website, as have fellow Army of God members such as Scott Roeder (who is serving life without parole for murdering Wichita, Kansas-based abortion doctor George Tiller in 2009), Shelley Shannon (who attempted to kill Tiller in 2003) and Michael Frederick Griffin (who is serving a life sentence for the 1993 killing of Dr. David Gunn, an OB-GYN, in Pensacola, Florida)."

2. Eastern Lightning, a.k.a. the Church of the Almighty God

"Eastern Lightning members Zhang Lidong and his daughter, Zhang Fan, were convicted of murder for the crime and executed in February. In a 2014 interview in prison, Lidong expressed no remorse when he said of Shuoyan, “I beat her with all my might and stamped on her too. She was a demon. We had to destroy her.”

3. The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA)

"The LRA, according to Human Rights Watch, has committed thousands of killings and kidnappings—and along the way, its terrorism spread from Uganda to parts of the Congo, the Central African Republic (CAR) and South Sudan. The word “jihadist” is seldom used in connection with the LRA, but in fact, the LRA’s tactics are not unlike those of ISIS or Boko Haram."

4. TheNational Liberation Front of Tripura

"India is not only a country of Hindus and Sikhs, but also, of Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics and Protestants. Most of India’s Christians are peaceful, but a major exception is the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT). Active in the state of Tripura in Northeastern India since 1989, NLFT is a paramilitary Christianist movement that hopes to secede from India and establish a Christian fundamentalist government in Tripura."

5. The Phineas Priesthood

White supremacist groups don’t necessarily have a religious orientation: some of them welcome atheists as long as they believe in white superiority. But the Christian Identity movement specifically combines white supremacist ideology with Christianist terrorism, arguing that violence against non-WASPs is ordained by God and that white Anglo Saxon Protestants are God’s chosen people."

6. The Concerned Christians

"In 1999, Israeli officials arrested 14 members of the Concerned Christians in Jerusalem and deported them from Israel because they suspected them of plotting terrorist attacks against Muslims. One likely target, according to Israeli police, was Jerusalem’s al-Aqsa Mosque—the same mosque that was targeted in 1969 (when a Christianist from Australia named Denis Michael Rohan unsuccessfully tried to destroy it by arson) and, Israeli police suspect, was a likely target in 2014 (when Adam Everett Livix, a Christianist from Texas, was arrested by Israeli police on suspicion of plotting to blow up Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem)."

Source:https://www.salon.com/2015/04/07/6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_conveniently_ignores_partner/

I know, I know I'm sure you'll move the goal post after learning about this...

but there are obviously those misguided people who wrongly do things in the name of Christianity. — Hanover

No True Scotsman now?

I can tell you don't do research.....To much "I don't think" and "I believe" usage. Next time come with facts to substantiate your claims. you're talking to a researcher not some armchair scholar.

That was not the question. I was comparing dying to living eternally. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No you asked the question are you happy to know you will die? So, I answered it. Now if you were looking for something particular you should have written a fully formed paragraph to supplement that question. Instead you made it one sentence followed by a space so I therefore answered it as a stand alone question.

Try this. Do you wish to live for eternity? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Is this a straight forward question or am I supposed to answer this when comparing to living and dying? Do I want to live forever? No. because eternity is not guaranteed and since nothing in existence is guaranteed except death then no.

You think they would not want to be with their god. Ok. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

It makes me think of the quote:

"Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die." Sure, I'm sure there are Christians that want to go meet their "God," but it doesn't negate the natural inclination of wanting to live on their own terms.

It fits in as it questions what god wants. If a happy fault and necessary to his plan, then he would want us to sin. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I'm not sure I understand this.

Submit, like a slave, when Jesus said he came to serve and not be served by slaves. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Seriously taking statements I'm saying in another thread now? I'm not Christian for one, but when I say submit I do not question the particulars of my life whether I am free or am I a prisoner of causes and effects. Like a parent who dictates the through parental rearing, I believe a Creator deity who is ineffable perhaps in some indirect/direct is controlling the universe but that is my personal belief.

Not to Christians who expect their souls to live forever and I think they include new bodies. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Well that is Christian eschatology....

So you picked the contradiction that serves your thinking better. Quite the way to cherry pick. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Dude why are you cherry picking shit I'm saying to someone else in another thread? WTF that is some weird shit. If you look I was asking a question to another person.....

Ineffective if he did not earn death through sin.

You can do better than this buddy. I hope. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You act like you did something clever....Not only are you weird but you took comments from another thread and quoted me here as if you're doing some "ah ha!" stuff man...SMH man some of you guys are very special.

What you hear about is of a Judeo-Christian heritage from Christians.

Perhaps some Finnish Bishop might talk about both being Abrahamic religions, but then again he (or she) is here a semi-official here as there is no clear separation of Church and state. — ssu

Perhaps. The only time I hear about the relationship between all three are usually from scholars from all three faiths.

See the issue with common Christian ignorance when it comes to Islam came to ahead when many evangelicals were calling Allah a "moon god," but they had to readjust their argument when they began to realize that there are Christian Arabs who refer to God as Allah as well just as there is a long history of Jews who re Arab who refer to God as Allah because Arabic is a semitic language among the same language that Jesus himself spoke./

In a single breathe you condemn small minded stereotyping while also stereotyping how Americans tend to act. — Hanover

I'm an American. I've observed Americans at their best and their worse. In the United States, many citizens are guilty of this. For example, shortly after 9/11 U.,S. citizens were targeting people of Indian descent because they felt that Indians from India who wore turbans were Muslim. The Indian community had to explain, listen, they had to explain that their turban was a custom in their faith and had no barring on the Islamic religion. All because Americans thought with one broad stroke of a brush assumed people who wore turbans were Muslim. So yes, I do stereotype on a behavior that is quite common here in the states.

I'm not talking about the small number of terrorists, but the rather large number of Muslims living under theocratic rule. — Hanover

Be specific. Can't presuppose a plausible statement if you cannot substantiate that with evidence. There are plenty Muslim dominated countries. But, to help you out, let look at countries with theocracies:

Vatican

Mauritania

Iran

Sudan

Yemen

Afghanistan

highlighting the bold are you saying those five Muslim countries sponsor terrorism because they're theocratic, if so why isn't the Vatican not a part of it? Or were you inferring something else?

It's been quite a few centuries that Christians killed in the name of Christianity. — Hanover

Are you implying that there isn't a continuance of killings in the name of Christianity? I can name several white nationalist organizations whose Christian faith is a proponent of their beliefs, and they tend to commit criminal acts, and religion is among those as the reason for their acts. But I'll wait for your interpretation of the above quote.

which was my point in referencing the fact that many of the Muslim nations are culturally primitive in terms of acceptance of basic human rights. — Hanover

Which nations that are Muslim are primitive or are you generalizing? Can you specify which country? Let me help you out, there are approximately 50 Muslim countries. Which among the 50 are primitive and what makes them primitive? That is your homework for today.

I don't think it's forgotten at all, but it forms the common basis for blaming the West for the terrorism exacted upon it by Muslims when it does occur. — Hanover

Because the West does have some sort of blame in all this. I believe the Iranian president made the remark today regarding the Iranian guard being labeled terrorist to the extent of:

"How do you label a nation's military a terrorist organization when you commit terrorist acts yourself? Shall I remind you how an American battleship shot a missile destroying Iran flight 655?"

Of course I was paraphrasing but there is an article on yahoo with the exact quote. Point is, when the United States supports regimes other groups are oppressed by, when we back governments that harm people you create enemies. When you create enemies and these enemies are poor and have no other options you create the perfect recipe for extremism. A great example of this is the Nation of Islam. Due to racism and racist laws many black Americans had no voice nor any rights or protections under the law. If you live a life of oppression all you need is a charismatic leader to influence you that the "white man" is the devil and that you are a divine people. Train a distressed people with discipline, pervert sacred texts for one's own gain, and demonize a target you can create an extremist organization. So yes the western powers do have a hand in this indeed and yes this is why many Muslims even those straddling the moderate to extreme fence believe.

You'll have to explain to me why a white male's opinion as to the treatment of women should be discounted because of race and gender. — Hanover

I was making an example but here in the United States and elsewhere, the system of patriarchy was largely white and influenced by white protestant men. Which is why many women's rights groups today are basing their arguments on when it comes to social inequity. When feminists of color argue that white male patriarchy hurts them it doubly affects them on the race as well as gender front. So when men (largely white men) take issue of women fighting for social equity it is something to the effect of:

“When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Which is the response to a lot of issues concerning women speaking out on sexual abuse, the gap in gender pay etc and the typical male response. That is not to say white male's opinion is not valuable but when it comes to our worldview for a long time we have seen the world through the lens of the white male for far too long and this includes Muslim countries. So yes, when we talk about looking at the world from a different perspective the response from the white male (not all but those who have have the typical patriarchal viewpoint), it is like taking a toy from a toddler. The result is having groups like MGTOW and the like.

It sounds patently racist and sexist, but perhaps you meant something else. — Hanover

Reading is indeed fundamental. Stop reading into things with cognitive dissonance and read, if I wanted to be racist and insult the white demographic I wouldn't use jargon nor waste time writing an entire paragraph. Jesus, read.

I also don't fully appreciate why women are in a superior position to know when human life begins and why women ought be the final authority of when an abortion is appropriate fetacide and not inappropriate infanticide, so that too needs further explaining. — Hanover

Who said this above bullshit? I didn't infer such things. Bro, on another note a woman's body is her body she ultimately has the final say so. until we men start giving birth through a a potential third canal or something crazy we have no say so on what a woman should do with her body no matter how unfair it seems. When you have a full breathing human come out of you then you can determine the fate of such a human. but again we are getting away from the subject.

Regardless, what you describe in terms of Western sexism is child's play when compared to the relegated status of Muslim women in the Muslim world. — Hanover

Although you disagree with the OP (as you said) you sure are going hard in the paint for it....Anyway, yes some of the Muslim countries have a lot to do when it comes to their social order, but hey I'm not concerned about their government I'm concerned about the monkey in this administration who is ruining the image of the U.S. This so-called leader who espouses in glee that he grabs women by the genitalia and that we still have a base that sees nothing wrong with this is alarming. With that being said the finger wagging towards Muslims and their respective countries is like our way of introducing pot and kettle.

t's one thing to debate the complex question of when life begins and quite another to institutionalize male superiority through law. — Hanover

Ok.

It is entirely possible to separate this out between primitive culture versus primitive religion, with the West's adoption of Christianity making Christianity appear more sophisticated simply because it is the ideology of the more sophisticated peoples. — Hanover

See, you're no different...So miss me with the "I largely disagree with the OP bullshit. You're full of shit just like the author that wrote this. Christianity is sophisticated huh for sophisticated people? The fuck out of here...I need not responding to the rest of the bullshit you wrote.

Are you happy to know you will die? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't think anyone with a sane mind would be happy that their life functions will cease in the future.

Christians also sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

First time I'm hearing this. which Christian denomination is saying this?

This indicates that part of god’s plan and desire is that all people should die. God’s plan cannot be derailed., if god is real. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I believe in some way metaphorically, the story of Adam at least in part is to explain the morality of humanity.

If Jesus was not a sinner, how could he have died? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

By getting metal nails implanted in his wrists and feet placed up on a Roman instrument and slowly dying from asphyxiation.

Do you really think it's "most likely" our poster is a Christian terrorist, or is this post just more hyperbole devoid of philosophical or academic value? — Hanover

Terrorist no. But it is the type of sensationalist asinine approach to another faith that can develop extremist tendencies or attract others with extremist tendencies. This "we are better than you mentality" is the kind of element extremists especially those on the right side of politics love.

I say this largely disagreeing with the OP, feeling it's really knee jerk reaction to well publicized accounts of Muslim terrorism on Western targets and the obvious observation that many Muslim nations are in undeveloped parts of the world. — Hanover

Fine, but the sensationalism behind the approach using the construction of " I am better than you" argument is quite dull and repetitive. Unfortunately a lot of people very often conflate western ideals with U.S. American ideals (I have been guilty of this) and tend to impart the common uneducated misappropriate rant that Americans here often do.

but I think we shouldn't be dismissive of the question of whether there is something about Islam that has left its followers in nations centuries behind the West in so many areas of development. — Hanover

No, but the approach should have been less aggressive and more constructive to where we can all engage collectively to where we can value his opinion. It is almost like asking Andrea Dworkin to talk about patriarchy without vilifying the male persona. The whole "the west is better because" then followed by redundant and rhetorical reasons is not an attractive approach. In addition, to castigate an entire faith for the actions of a few (out of 1.8 billion Muslims Muslim terrorism is a few in comparison to the hundreds to the billion) leaves open to the whataboutisms for other faiths.

Now, I don't like to do a kill count but I'm quite sure both historically and presently, Christianity has killed more than any other faith in the history of mankind. But alas, this isn't about Christianity but considering many evangelicals tend to tout that Christianity has its foundations in the west, then we cannot help but to discuss this faith as well. More importantly, in order to have a viable discussion about Muslim extremism we need to consider the confounding factors that lead up to why some muslims go to the extreme lengths to indoctrinate themselves with extremist ideology, and why such extremist ideologies are attractive.

People forget that Western powers have a hand in influencing whole governments to rebel against their leads and there have been western powers that have abandoned people (the very people they originally had supported) and leaving them like lambs to the slaughter. Look at the case with Saddam Hussein. United States originally supported him then all of a sudden a political shift happened and now he is the bad guy. The same when the United States militarily supported Osama Bin Laden. So yes of course we need to talk about extremism but we need to also address the elements of how extremism happens, why it continues and why there is continued underdevelopment in the Muslim world.

BTW a few underdeveloped countries does not mean the entire Muslim community is poor so I think we need to make that distinction clear.

A woman's role in those societies, for example, is not at all acceptable to us in Western countries. — Hanover

The same is like that here as well. Whenever we discuss women's rights online a lot of white men seem to be up in arms about why we need to discuss women's rights then most certainly it turns into a shouting match of who is the most oppressed or why we can't force a women to have a baby when she wants an abortion because she was raped and so forth. Yes socially we are improved but we are in no moral position to wag our finger at someone.

I think it's also a waste of time to yell back at them calling them murderers. Our poster poses no threat to anyone. — Hanover

I said:

But no, this is the ramblings of some nut job who most likely will go to a mosque and kill another 50 peopl — Anaxagoras

Let me rephrase....

What I meant was these beliefs, the whole "we are better than you" motif are the elements of those who have extreme worldviews when it comes to religion and culture. When that coward decided to kill those people in that mosque he held similar supremacist beliefs (of course he was a white nationalist) and one of the elements of these beliefs is the fact that he demonized an entire community and felt that this community was an immediate threat and decided to take it upon himself to do something about it. But in no way am I saying this guy is the same as him, I don't know. What I do know that the key element to extremist views is having a supremacist mindset.

You're the worst of the lot. Have you ever made a post on this forum which wasn't about racism, sexism or anti-Islamic sentiment? — Judaka

Really? Name several threads I've created talking about racism, and sexism? I'll wait...

But I'd tread carefully on speaking about who is worse because you're certainly not philosophical material when it comes to explaining and defending one's position.

Are you saying that Banno, StreetlightX, and Maw all live in the same basement? Or separate ones? — frank

LOOL WTF?

a few are guilty of the same thing as OP which is taking an extremely complicated and large thing like a religion being followed by a billion people or the West and taking a sliver of truth as using that to create venomous generalisations. I call this problem an issue of interpretative relevance and the named people don't even attempt to be balanced or nuanced, it's shameful. — Judaka

I agree. I largely think some of the posters on this forum are very young, and if they're not young, then they're either:

A) A college dropout failure

B) Never went to college

C) Live in a basement with underdeveloped social skills.

I think people need to stop watching Faux news for their understanding of reality.

Yet you seldom hear anyone referring to the fact that both Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions. — ssu

You seldomly don't hear (from Christians) that Islam and Christianity are Abrahamic religions you mean.

My own 2 cents is that this dumb as fuck thread should be closed. Go to 4chan or some shit to spew this Islamophobic stupidity, not here. — Maw

This.

This is a philosophy forum and I would at least expect someone to construct a philosophical argument at least partially academic for their approach to the subject. But no, this is the ramblings of some nut job who most likely will go to a mosque and kill another 50 people.

The Muslim jihadists continue to make the claim that they are morally superior to the West. — Ilya B Shambat

The West has done both historically and presently exactly the same.

but on the basis of values and institutions that actually make the West superior to the Muslims. — Ilya B Shambat

So you are going to make an argument on the west supremacy, got it!

The West does not have people throwing sulfuric acid into girls' faces for going to school. — Ilya B Shambat

Sure they do:

“Punish a Muslim Day” started off last month, with a number of anonymous letters arriving at the homes of Muslims in the north of England, the Midlands and east London. Four Muslim MPs received it, including at least one copy being received in parliament, leading to a security alert. The letter boasted of horrific “rewards”, encouraging people to carry out attacks on Muslims, including torture, burning down mosques and throwing acid in Muslims’ faces."

Source:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/04/love-a-muslim-day-counter-islamophobia

The West has free speech. — Ilya B Shambat

That is debatable, especially in America considering "free speech advocates believe free speech is only extended to people of a certain mindset, and in these cases usually people who are white, and right-wing conservative. That is based on social conversation, but lawfully yes we have "decreed speech" but we do not have absolute free speech. That means in an at-will state I can still get fired for expressing my "free views" on social media.

The West has women's rights. — Ilya B Shambat

Yet, women still suffer from inequality in the work force as well as suffering socially due to rape culture, and other elements of toxic patriarchy.

The West has a lot of people working around the globe to extend to others development, opportunity and education. — Ilya B Shambat

Yes. Telling people of the world how to live the "correct way" in accordance to how it is done here in the western world. Yes, the west has done a lot, but it also has done a lot to usurp communities that were once peaceful.

And that, instead of practicing a defensive posture or some sort of religious me-tooism — Ilya B Shambat

You just ruined your argument with the bold remark.

The West's moral superiority comes from free speech. It comes from democracy. — Ilya B Shambat

We are not entirely democratic because everything in the west is not completely equal. This is why civil rights continues to become a relevant issue because western society is still continuing to evolve itself. When you talk about terms of superiority and inferiority you open up Pandora's box to critique aspects of western powers.

Further, the Muslim people owe a lot to America and the rest of the West. If not for the Western democracies, the Middle East as well as the rest of the world would be practicing Communism; and that means that they would not be able to practice Islam at all. — Ilya B Shambat

This is the same argument racist whites like to impart to African-Americans: "You owe us for slavery because if it wasn't for us, you'd be living in mud huts." Your comment is not only bigoted but illogical, but continue.

The West is morally superior to the Islamic world. And it is time that more people say so outright. — Ilya B Shambat

Your whole entire argument is not only bigoted, but juvenile and not even put together to convince me philosophically to think otherwise.

Hygenia has not been approved by the FDA. — Bitter Crank

:rofl:

Doesn't seem like much of a scene is required, it's not like you merc'd each other in a rap beef fam. — fdrake

:lol:

No, it is an example of belief, but not all belief is like that. — S

Ok, fine your point?

That particular kind of belief is belief based on wishful thinking. — S

According to you. Religious belief or otherwise is personal and whether you perceive it as wishful is up to you, but nonetheless it is, my belief.

and should therefore be rejected and avoided, if you share the same values as me in this regard. — S

But you're nobody to me. You're an opinion on the internet and not an authority and even if you were an authority you're still a nobody online. Regardless how you formulate your arguments philosophically to where an atheist would jerk off to it and splooge all over the place, it would not change how I would believe spiritually.

I would stop if I were you because this road is actually closed. The "proving that God doesn't exist" stops here.

Oh God. But that just sounds very much like you're believing what you want to believe. — S

True. This is called belief...I believe the Lakers will one day win the NBA championship just as I believe the Cowboys will win the NFL.

he belief isn't reasonable, but it serves a purpose. — S

Of course, it gives my brain confidence, but it doesn't make me wrong for the belief.

In theory, it could have been belief in anything whatsoever, including things that believers themselves find ridiculous, preposterous, absurd, and unthinkable, but that is undoubtedly a double standard. — S

Well my ideas of a spaghetti god are different than my ideas of what and who God is.

Are you happy to know you will die? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

why would I be happy if my life functions cease to stop?

Death or the fact that we die seems to be good news to Christians. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I disagree. I do not think all Christians want to die even if they believe they will attain salvation.

It is said that Adam’s sin brought death to earth and that the wages of sin is death. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Not according to Judaism and Islam.

Christians also sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Perhaps but how does that fit into the model of what God, so-called wants from us?

This indicates that part of god’s plan and desire is that all people should die. God’s plan cannot be derailed., if god is real. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

All life forms are destined to die this is the nature of mortal existence....nothing new.

Do you think god’s plan working? If it is working as god wishes, which must be so if there is a powerful god, and if death is good for us, does the thought of dying make you happy? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I was born and I die. This is the nature of a thing. Am I happy that I will die eventually? No. But I will die. I full submit to what God has planned for me.

If the notion of death makes you unhappy, then why sing of sin, --- and by inference, death, --- as being a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I am not happy, where did you get this idea from?

If Jesus was not a sinner, how could he have died? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Because it is said in the Bible he was without sin? But more importantly because it was a part in the whole plan??

This is an anecdote******

I'll be among the first to say I don't know God. I've never met God nor have ever had the privilege to be in God's company. If I did, I never knew mentally that I was. In my personal experience when I found out I was allergic to a narcotic drug that could have killed me, God was there. When both my parents died and I lacked strength God was there. I believe God comes to us individually respective of our beliefs. Unlike a lot of religions I am not succumb to the concrete standards of dogma. God's existence is there its just an indescribable feeling. sometimes you have to stop and listen to hear God speak.

:razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:

Got it...

Wow all that education and still unwise.... Thank you my good friend...btw please if you have more questions in my thread feel free to ask...Hard questions please