• Why do atheists ask for evidence of God, when there is clearly no such evidence?
    Therein lies the lie. That is NOT how the concept of “god” is generally used.

    If your definition of “god” is accepted everyone knows there is a “god”. God refers to “deity” in the argumentation of for or against the proposition. If there is a deity then it is up to the claim to explicate what this deity is ... yet it cannot. It is concept, in this sense, dealing with the limitations of human comprehension dressed up as some anthropomorphic “being”. Once the concept of ‘god’ is used outside of the ‘deity’ idea it is more of an intellectual item to toy with. I feel this is why religions have managed to last; they entice the human intellect to the idea of “beyond” and encourage us to grasp for something else we’re admittedly ignorant of.     — I like sushi

    I think a great many if not most religious people actually feel the same way I do. They just practice their religions to be closer to the divine without actually literally believing all of the teachings or words of any given "sacred" text. Many if not most practicing Christians, for example, are probably agnostic on many of the Bible's stories, and very few practicing Christians take the Bible to be the inviolable "Word of God" in the sense that it isn't open to various interpretatoins with layers of meaning.
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    ↪tim wood


    Would most of these harms to the community be wiped out if certain illegal drugs were decriminalized? For example (and this is just an example, not something I have encountered), take the person who uses magic mushrooms to help ease her anxiety and depression. As long as the person is doing it in their home and not operating any heavy machinery, and all of their daily responsibilities have been taken care of (never mind that many people can still perform duties while "high" on this drug); is the use of magic mushrooms harming the community given the drug is no longer criminal?

    You could substitute a number of illegal drugs for magic mushrooms. I tend to agree with you, however, that herion is a hell of a bad drug.
  • Why do atheists ask for evidence of God, when there is clearly no such evidence?
    I will give what I think is compelling evidence for a divine consciousness.

    (1) Human beings and other animals are conscious and self-aware.
    (2) Human beings and other conscious animals are made of matter.
    (3) Matter collected and organized itself somehow in order to become conscious.
    (4) Either matter collected and organized itself into conscious beings purely by accident or by design.
    (5) It seems highly unlikely to me that inanimate matter could spontaneously collect and organize itself into conscious beings all on its own without some kind of guidance.
    (6) Thus, it is highly likely that matter was guided by some conscious being to form into conscious animals.

    (7) I call this guiding consciousness "God".

    Perhaps you find this arguement compelling. Perhaps you don't. I do. That said, I don't deign to suggest I know what God's nature is. For me, it is a matter of faith that God's nature is loving. I have my reasons for believing this. One reason is that conscious beings such as ourselves appear to be able to have empathy, compassion, and love for one another. If God created us to be conscious like Him/Herself, then I think God also has empathy, compassion, and love for us.
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    Substitute "consumerism" for "shopping" if that makes the argument more compelling.
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    (1) Shopping causes waste in the form of garbage and contributes to the destruction of the environment.
    (2) If we want a healthy environment, then shopping should be illegal.
    (3) We need a healthy environment to survive.
    (4) Thus, shopping should be outlawed.

    In conclusion, the community doesn't really know what is good for itself.

    Let them eat drugs!
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    I buy this. And you may care to investigate alternative therapies. "Drooling idiot" was the sel-descriptive phrase of choice of a person in a similar position. With some help he found it was not his only option, and he was able to make the change. Maybe a mental health professional? Psychiatrists are MDs that have evolved to function as drug prescribers for the real mental-health professionals who are not licensed to prescribe.

    (That's right, I hold psychiatrists to be MDs and not real mental-health professionals. Certainly some can be, but for psychiatrists it's an uphill fight in part because of their basic medical training, and in part because of the kind of people many doctors are and have to be, to be doctors. The medical training emphasizes the "medical model," which in simplest terms means that you're a patient; you're a problem; and it's the doctor's business to solve problems, i.e., you.) So if you've been legally drugged in a bad way, and you have even the slightest hope and suspicion that life can be better, then go for it! Because it can be!)     — tim wood

    My wife says she won’t stay with me if I don’t take my medications. I love her.
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    But what are they, exactly. I know, it's pain to call for exactitude, here, but it's the correct standard. Are you associated in any way with anyone who may suffer because of you drug use? Can you guarantee to control your drug use and it's effects on you and others? And if you fail, who pays your bills? — tim wood

    Well, for me personally, the legal drugs that my psychiatrist prescribes make me so lethargic, drained, drowsy, and lazy, that I cannot handle much responsibility. So, drugs can be bad whether legal or illegal.
  • Is it immoral to do illegal drugs?
    I thought this thread was supposed to be about the morality of illegal drug use.

    As long as one can handle one’s responsibilities, then I feel like illegal drug use is not a matter of morality, but there are other considerations such as damaging the health of the body and giving money to evil drug cartels. That said, wouldn’t a better healthcare system and legalizing drugs help assuage these issues?
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪boethius
    You, me, Dr. Israelstam, and the head psychiatrist at UW.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪boethius
    I’m talking about individuals. You’re talking about generalities.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    Society's evolution is not independent of my actions, so what you say is simply not logically coherent: — boethius

    It seems like you think you can have an impact on societal affairs. If so, that sounds an awful lot like delusions of grandeur. In reality, you have very little to no effect on society. State oppression? Welcome to the world as it’s been since the formation of communities. No one will ever change that. Now, if you live in Saudi Arabia, then it does very well need drastic changes. Just don’t stick your neck out too far lest your head get cut off.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪boethius
    Do you live in the United States? Is this an oppressive society? It certainly is if you are a young black man living in poverty, for example. That said, society evolves naturally. Most people would RATHER adapt than bang their heads against the wall of the slowly evolving organism that is society. If one makes too much of a stink, one finds oneself in prison, dead, or possibly even tortured. That is the stark reality of human civilization since the very beginning, and I very much doubt that will change any time soon.

    So, yes, I decided that it is best not to rock the boat too much because I was a target of the authorities at one time. I decided that I cannot change the world. Most psychiatrists are no different, and the good ones want to help people out of compassion. I decided I want to feel better as the world is. I suggest you give up your idealism and just let society evolve as it is wont to do.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪boethius
    Is it the job of psychiatrists to change society into a more just one? Or is it their job to help individuals who are struggling to feel better?

    Furthermore, there are good psychiatrists and bad psychiatrists. When I was at the UW psych ward, I was told by the head psychiatrist that he couldn’t change the world, but he could help me feel better. In my opinion, he was a good psychiatrist.

    Dr. Israelstam of Madison, Wisconsin, told me after I told him that I was suicidal that he hoped he’d never see me again after he suggested that I might want to try heroin. He ended up going to prison on child pornography charges. He was a bad psychiatrist.
  • What happened to "Philosophy Forums"?
    Then you'll love Noah Te Stroete. — S

    Not as much as he’s gonna love your tits!
  • The Meaning of Life
    Life has no objective meaning. Its meaning is whatever you choose to impose on it. Asking “what is the meaning of life?” is like asking “what is the meaning of banana?” or “what is the meaning of Nixon?”
  • The Meaning of Life
    ↪whollyrolling
    Haha! :grin: Where have you been? Crawled out of your cave to rip people new ones? :lol:
  • Under the philosophy or religion of Gnosticism can a good christian be saved or have a good long...
    ↪christian2017
    Medieval Christian society wasn’t very Christ-like, nor is contemporary capitalist society. Individuals can be good, though, regardless of where and when they live.
  • Under the philosophy or religion of Gnosticism can a good christian be saved or have a good long...
    can a good christian be saved (go to heaven) — christian2017

    I don’t see why not, assuming it’s real. That also goes for good Hindus, good Buddhists, good Muslims, good Jews, good whatever. Christians get too hung up on John 3:16, a single verse in the Bible, in my opinion.

    or have a good long term lifestyle? — christian2017

    Why shouldn’t they? Can’t a good Buddhist or Hindu have a good, long life? To suggest otherwise is prejudiced and ugly.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    Are you bipolar? — Bitter Crank

    Schizoaffective disorder, which is like a little bipolar, a little schizophrenia.
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    Once your gain it, sure, but you competed against other in the company for advancement. Right? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Once you’re in a role you have to cooperate, otherwise the company won’t function. You’re not so much competing for advancement as applying for a position. The applicants have to cooperate with the hirer and with the rules and regulations of the company in order to be considered. It is usually not the unkind and brutal who advance in a company. The person who brings value to the company through working well within the company (cooperation) gets to advance. Although there are some industrial psychopaths who advance, but they tend to harm the company’s well-being.

    You and I are animals first and foremost and subject to evolution just as all animals are. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

    We are social animals living in communities. We’re not lone tigers in the jungle.
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    We, as we get older and find a need for resources, compete for them and the most gentle tend to lose at competitions. How then do you see a way for the gentle to inherit the earth when it is the rich and non-gentle who are inheriting most of the resources on earth? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Have you ever had a job? It’s mostly cooperation with little competition. Living in a community takes WAY more cooperation than competition.

    It is the rich and non-gentle who are the most destructive. That doesn’t bode well for the future of humanity, seeing as how they also have the power.

    Take “the meek shall inherit the earth” to be a normative statement instead of a descriptive statement. That’s how it should be read.
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    Morals are my specialty. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

    I didn’t get that impression from the way you speak to hachit, who doesn’t seem to have a mean bone in his body.
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    ↪Gnostic Christian Bishop
    I take “meek” to mean “gentle”. It takes a fit father to be gentle with his children, especially when they’re young.

    If you ask me, the world could use more gentleness. It goes well with living in a community. I would rather my boys be gentle than brutal and unkind. Then they will have a better chance of finding a caring and empathetic wife. These are characteristics that society could use more of, in my view.

    That said, I haven’t exactly lived up to my ideals. I’m a product of my environment, which is to say, a brutal society.
  • Why do christian pastors feel the need to say christianity is not a religion?
    No No No No. — James Statter

    Hee-haw! Hee-haw!
  • Why do christian pastors feel the need to say christianity is not a religion?
    Discussing philosophy is a form of evangelism — James Statter

    Maybe. It depends on your intentions.
  • Why do christian pastors feel the need to say christianity is not a religion?
    or you are 20 something and perhaps some one somewhere will change your mind about something. — James Statter

    That sounds like you are trying to convert him rather than having a friendly discussion. Evangelism isn’t allowed here.
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    ↪Gnostic Christian Bishop
    I am not familiar with those passages. However, one must remember he was a Jewish man living in the first century. “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” “Love your neighbor as yourself.” “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” “The meek shall inherit the earth.”

    This was way more moral than his local contemporaries.
  • Why do christian pastors feel the need to say christianity is not a religion?
    ↪James Statter
    Do you believe wives should obey their husbands? What about what the Bible says about women’s rights?
  • Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?
    I am a Christian in that I believe Christ was enlightened and was a truly moral person. I do not take the Bible to be the infallible “Word of God”. It’s stories are indeed myths with lessons to be learned. Some are good myths. Some are just asinine.

    I believe in a higher consciousness that created the universe, and this is what I call “God”. I cannot fathom how inanimate matter collects itself and organizes itself so that it can become self-aware without some kind of divine guidance. I have yet to hear a convincing argument how this would be possible as an accident of nature. We are all “gods” in that we are all conscious, and I believe consciousness is of a spiritual nature, being so unexplainable and mysterious. It seems to me our consciousness was purposefully created by a higher consciousness. I find this to be an abductive inference for the existence of God’s consciousness. I find it to be a better inference than that matter accidentally collected and organized itself into conscious beings.
  • Why do christian pastors feel the need to say christianity is not a religion?
    I am a Christian in that I believe Christ was enlightened and was a truly moral person. I do not take the Bible to be the infallible “Word of God”. It’s stories are indeed myths with lessons to be learned. Some are good myths. Some are just asinine.

    I believe in a higher consciousness that created the universe, and this is what I call “God”. I cannot fathom how inanimate matter collects itself and organizes itself so that it can become self-aware without some kind of divine guidance. I have yet to hear a convincing argument how this would be possible as an accident of nature. We are all “gods” in that we are all conscious, and I believe consciousness is of a spiritual nature, being so unexplainable and mysterious. It seems to me our consciousness was purposefully created by a higher consciousness. I find this to be an abductive inference for the existence of God’s consciousness. I find it to be a better inference than that matter accidentally collected and organized itself into conscious beings.

    Edit: I posted this in the wrong thread, but it’s probably fine here, too.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪yupamiralda
    Yeah, well, I’ve been told by my doctors that it’s a life-long illness with no cure. I’ve tried the willpower thing before and went off my meds. Then my doctor at the time threatened to have me committed. I didn’t think I was dangerous and thought I had things under control, but it turned out I was scaring a lot of people with my behavior. I know I can’t stop taking my meds until they find a cure. I am taking responsibility for my illness. I take my meds every night, and I never miss an appointment with my psychiatrist. I just found therapy to be like mental masturbation in the past. Or, it’s more like I’m jerking off the therapist when I know what s/he wants to hear.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    I'm a big fan of CBT. It's not the solution to every problem, but it is the solution to many common problems. I also appreciate the commonality it has with Stoicism and Buddhism. — andrewk

    The problem I have with therapy is that I know what the therapist wants to hear, but it is nearly impossible for me to control my thoughts from moment to moment. I know how I should think, but I CANNOT change my erratic thoughts throughout the day no matter the effort involved.

    I also have had a much greater than average share of trauma in my life, and CBT doesn’t seem suited to address my issues.
  • Psychiatry’s Incurable Hubris
    ↪Chisholm
    I wouldn’t be allowed to live in the community or I would be homeless or dead if not for anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, and antidepressants. I have paranoid schizophrenia vs schizoaffective disorder (at least that’s what I’ve been told by a dozen different psychiatrists). I would be dangerous to myself or others if I didn’t take my medications. Luckily for everyone else, I take responsibility for my disorder and take my meds nightly. I have done so for most of my adult life.

    However, I agree that CBT is unhelpful for many (myself included).
  • Marx And Reagan
    ↪Ilya B Shambat
    That was a very good OP to read. I enjoyed it, and I found your analysis to be quite keen.
  • Are prison populations an argument for why women are better than males?
    ↪S
    Isn’t it like 5:41 AM by you? What are you doing up so early on a Sunday? Going to church? LOL
  • Art highlights the elitism of opinion
    Why not then just stare at a loaf of bread and imagine all the plots of all the stories you want perfectly tailored to your own tastes and desires? What's the point of having any art at all? — NKBJ

    Haha! I can’t wait to hear his response! This is getting good!
  • Are prison populations an argument for why women are better than males?
    ↪Wallows
    I was showing concern, but I guess it’s a good sign that you’re joking.
  • Are prison populations an argument for why women are better than males?
    ↪Wallows
    Have you been stressed about personal issues lately? I ask because you seem un Wallows like recently.
  • Are prison populations an argument for why women are better than males?
    Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows
  • Are prison populations an argument for why women are better than males?
    ↪Wallows
    Way to take responsibility. :ok:
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