• Poll: Evolution of consciousness by natural selection
    Obviously there's lots of things the poll could have been but wasn't. The point is it's a perfectly good poll. For example, it didn't capture my position, which is that no causes are physical. But the framing of the question is interesting on its own terms and I picked the closest option.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    ↪neomac
    I was genuinely confused as to who you meant! Sorry, maybe it's obvious.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    "Double standard" anybody? — neomac

    Who has the double standard?
  • Dualism and Interactionism
    Most contemporary philosophers of mind employ a Cartesian conceptual space in which reality is (at least potentially) divided into res extensa and res cogitans. — Dfpolis

    Really? How contemporary is contemporary? Most people are monists these days, no?
  • The universe is cube shaped
    ↪AlienFromEarth
    Love the OP. This is what philosophy should be. Planck cubes? Are we living in Mincecraft?
  • What creates suffering if god created the world ?
    ↪simplyG
    I think the idea is that suffering goes along, necessarily, with differentiation. And creating a world is nothing other than differentiation, so that one bit of space if different from another. Only when there are other things can something impinge on you from outside, like an earthquake or other person.
  • Why is the Hard Problem of Consciousness so hard?
    To me, too. I'm just stating the case for the other side, and asking how it works — Patterner

    Oh I see, that makes sense. Sorry I haven't been following closely.
  • Why is the Hard Problem of Consciousness so hard?
    Behavior is explained by the physical. — Patterner

    Is it though? I do things because of the way I feel, it seems to me. So we have the problem of overdetermination. A topic for another thread I think. I still have to catch up on a paper @fdrake wants me to read though, so I'll do that first.
  • Why is the Hard Problem of Consciousness so hard?
    I;d say it has been explained. — FrancisRay

    I broadly agree, with caveats. There's still a bunch of questions left over with my view. I'm interested though, what explanation do you favour?
  • Why is the Hard Problem of Consciousness so hard?
    Right now we don't know how a bachelor could be a married man, but that doesn't mean we won't discover it in the future.
  • "Why I don't believe in God" —Greta Christina
    Is there anything you'd like to discuss about this? Or should this be in the lounge?
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    ↪Corvus
    Sure, that's fair enough, and on topic for this thread.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    ↪Corvus
    OK, it seems like your view is a stipulative definition, rather than a theory of something we already agree the is the referent of the term 'consciousness'.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    sleeping — Corvus

    What about when dreaming?
  • Why isn't there a special page for solipsists?
    I have no memory of writing all this. Note to self - practise memory games.
  • God & Christianity Aren’t Special
    @Mikie I think some softer liberal wishy-washy Christians would agree with you. They think all the God stuff is true, but recognise that the imagery and vocabulary they approach the matter with are culturally relative.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    The scientific view is that organisms zombies display intelligence and behavioural autonomy because they use semiotic codes to construct a “selfish” or enactive modelling relation with their worlds. That is what can be seen plainly written into the structure of their nervous systems. It is not a mystery. — apokrisis
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    The substantiated position is that consciousness is not empirically observable and you insist that it be defined in an empirically measurable way to be taken into consideration in the first place — javra

    This characterises a lot of debate on consciousness. Some people really want a functionalist definition, the trouble is that isn't what is meant. If we start with a non-functionalist definition then we have a problem built-in (whether it's 'hard' or not) - how to get structural and functional concepts (which are the currency of scientific discourse) to connect to a definition which does not specify any structure and function. It's much easier if we start with quantifiable and measurable concepts that are amenable to scientific enquiry.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    He also wrote a history of the subject that I found useful - like, who's who in the zoo. — Wayfarer

    Just reading that now. It's very interesting and easy to read and understand. Many thanks for the link. Might help me understand Apo better. I read a Pattee article as well which was easy to follow too.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    Definitions are given. You can't choose them. Not in a conversation.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    ↪apokrisis
    All definitions are capable if being wrong as they all may incorrectly describe usage. On the other hand, some hypotheses are not falsìiable except by empirical investigation. Is that what you mean?
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    What is a counterfactual definition?
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    Apo thinks:

    A system, typically a brain, is conscious iff it creates a model of it's environment it uses to make predictions. Consciousness is the action or function of doing this.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    What's so hard to understand here? — apokrisis

    Your views. Thanks for explaining further.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    ↪apokrisis
    I was just asking, because I'm interested, if you intended your statement to be chiefly conceptual, or emprical, or something else. I can't quite see an answer to that. You don't have to answer if you don't want to of course. I didn't intend to go on about the hard problem again, although no doubt I will again at some point.
  • Nice little roundup of the state of consciousness studies
    At best, consciousness = attention + reporting. — apokrisis

    Are you offering this more as a definition or a theory? Or perhaps more of a conceptual clarification (which I guess is closer to definition)? Or something else?
  • Insect Consciousness
    When we speak of pain and joy, are speaking of any other consciousness than human consciousness? No. Sharks have shark physiology. Insects have insect physiology. It’s an anthropomorphic mistake to assume they feel the same. — NOS4A2

    The claim is not that they feel the same kinds of things as humans necessarily, it's that they feel something at all. Insects are conscious, but they feel insecty things.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    I presume that minimal "experience"*1 means to sense (to be affected by) incoming energy/information . And ultimately perhaps to make sense (meaning) of that data. — Gnomon

    I think that presumption is wrong in the context of panpsychism. I suspect that's not what most panpsychists mean.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    Is the word "experiential" in this usage, a metaphor for conscious human subjective experience? Or does he really believe that atoms are literally aware of their environment? — Gnomon

    I haven't read it, but from what you quote it's almost certainly literal. Panpsychists literally think that, in some sense or other, everything is conscious.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    ↪fdrake
    Many thanks fdrake. That looks like a very interesting paper. I'll process it and reply. Hopefully soon.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    If pressed, the best I can say is there is thinking. — Tom Storm

    Identity aside, we can be sure that there is consciousness. I don't particularly like Descartes' formulation.

    Common sense - which may be more useful than philosophy - tells me I am conscious. But so what? — Tom Storm

    It's a datum that must be accounted for in any complete worldview. Hence the hard problem. How do we fit it in? Can we start with structure and function and get consciousness out of that? If not, what do we do? Do we have to add it into the starting conditions? That's typically the panpsychist position.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    Interested in why you strongly disagree with consciousness being a cluster concept. There seem to be a lot of types of conscious states that have radically different qualities, but we'd call all of them conscious. That to me connotes approaching the idea as a fuzzy unity of overlapping things, which can be disambiguated as needed based on the context. In my mind that's a cluster concept. — fdrake

    It would be a cluster concept if none of those 'types of conscious states' had one essential defining feature. But they do. They're all phenomenally conscious in the sense that there's something it is like to be in them. That said, if one of them doesn't have the the feature of phenomenal consciousness (say, a robot (or zombie or whatever) creating a model of the world it can use to make predictions 'in the dark'), then it's not a conscious state in that sense. Phenomenal consciousness picks out exactly one feature/property and one feature only, the presence of which is essential to the definition. That sense of 'consciousness' isn't a cluster concept.
  • Is consciousness present during deep sleep?
    Yes, I think consciousness is present in deep sleep. But:

    Because if we completely lacked consciousness, then loud noises would not wake us up. — Art48

    I don't think that's persuasive. The objcetion would presumably be that the brain remains receptive to some stimuli, and then on receipt of something sufficiently significant then more processes are started up.

    A: Consider first when we have local anesthesia, as when the dentist does a root canal. It is obvious that we are conscious. We do not feel the pain because the anesthesia prevents the pain signals from reaching consciousness. It’s possible when under a general anesthesia during surgery, the situation is the same: consciousness is present but the pain signals (as well as loud noises) are not reaching consciousness. — Art48

    That's interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

    My own current view is that consciousness is always present, but psychological identity perhaps isn't. During deep sleep there are no memories, values, desires etc. The patient ceases to exist as a psychological entity. That might be consistent with your second point, I'm not sure. What I think can't happen is that consciousness 'turns off' (like a computer shutting down) and then boots up again. That would entail consciousness being a vague concept, and I don't think it is.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    I'd guess the following style of inference would work for it:

    "What behaviours must an entity exhibit that renders consciousness the most plausible explanation for them?"

    That's an ampliative inference - fallible, non-deductive. Sometimes called inference to the best explanation.     — fdrake

    Yes, I agree in general. However I wasn't asked for arguments, I was asked for evidence, and that's what I want this thread to be primarily about. And it may be a short thread as a result. Regarding the substantive issues about the nature of consciousness, arguments and analysis do a hell of a lot more useful work than evidence does.

    Anyway, from the responses I'm not sure there's much of an issue. It does seem like we need definitions and theories in order to determine what we admit as evidence.

    Can you give me an example of theory neutral evidence? — Tom Storm

    I'm not sure I can. There may be no such thing, unless it is the world at large, which any true theory must be consistent with. Thoughts on this are very welcome. The one bit of theory neutral-evidence I can think of is exactly related to consciousness, and that is the insight that I am conscious. That thought has minimal content. The more complex the observation, or perception about the world, the more theory-laden it becomes, perhaps. For example, observing condensation on a window is theory-laden. Even observing water on the inside of a window is theory-laden - you're assuming it's water.

    So perhaps the punchline here is: we should allow theory-laden evidence. It's no problem. So if I say the evidence for panpsychism is anything at all happening, that's OK. I haven't done an illegal move. But that evidence is not at all persuasive, as it is prima-facie consistent with non-panpsychist views as well. What a panpsychist needs is not evidence of panpsychism, there's an overabundance of that, but a priori reasons for taking panpsychism seriously as a theoretical competitor with more popular theories that also purport to explain the same body of evidence. And arguments are indeed what panpsychists offer. When justifying their view panpsychists make arguments, they don't say "There is no matter that isn't doing something, therefore panpsychism." They make arguments such as the argument from the non-vagueness of consciousness, or the argument from parsimony, or the argument from idealism, or whatever.

    Further, no behaviour strictly entails any internal state absent a background theory which fills in the gaps. — fdrake

    Yes, that seems right.

    the concept is likely a cluster concept (also see here). — fdrake

    I strongly disagree with this! Or at least, if this is true, we as philosophers of consciousness are fucked. Cluster-fucked you might say. It seems clear to me that consciousness is not a single cluster concept, but one word with several distinct meanings. A topic in itself perhaps and well worth a thread if someone can be arsed.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    In short, we would need to arrive at a minimum criterion for what counts as consciousness, such that any and all candidates under consideration which meet that minimum criterion could be sensibly called "conscious"... — creativesoul

    Right. That's pretty much the conclusion I came to, I think. So we need a definition, or theory, to guide what we are looking for. And then the stuff we find when looking constitutes evidence. Is that right?

    So to take your "The ability to draw meaningful correlations between different things," I think is your definition/concept/theory of consciousness. And then if something, say ChatGPT, appears to draw meaningful correlations between things, then that is evidence that it is conscious. Am I following you?

    Thank you for trying to tackle the question directly.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    How do you think these 8 points sit with identifying panpsychism? — Tom Storm

    Oh it's a disaster for panpsychism!

    Great post from fdrake though, many thanks.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    Now I guess you're going to show us how what we experience as awareness can be observed in rocks. — T Clark

    Unfortunately not! If it were that easy the philosophy of mind would be over long ago. But we (perhaps) infer consciousness in other humans from their behaviour. But rocks also exhibit behaviour. It's not clear to me why the behaviour of rocks should not also evidence of consciousness.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    Not being a panpsychist, looking for consciousness in inanimate objects is not something I would normally do, but since you brought it up... It seems clear to me the idea of consciousness originated to refer to a human mental process. — T Clark

    Maybe, but even that sentence is theory-laden. It's stipulating it's a process. And I'm doubtful that earliest thinkers about consciousness did necessarily restrict it to human beings. If we're going to start somewhere, I suspect it's not processes in human beings - that's a way down the road. The starting point is my awareness. If I wasn't aware I wouldn't even suspect other people of being guilty of it.
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    I know that it's almost impossible to pin down a definition, but my current one I think is quite simple: The most fundamental unit of consciousness is a reflection of the outside from on the inside, and vice versa. There is an " in here" and an "out there". — Watchmaker

    I quite like that. Is it a definition or a theory? if you were a lexicographer, would you consider writing that in your dictionary you are authoring?
  • What constitutes evidence of consciousness?
    Hmm. Is a TV crime drama a useful analogy? These are written and directed to highlight certain things about the suspects and manipulate an audience - false leads, clues and behaviours specifically filmed and constructed to take you in a direction. This is not like ordinary evidence, in is contrived to elicit a response. Maybe true crime would be a better analogy? Or maybe crime is not useful at all. Perhaps what you are saying can be made more simple - what are the key indicators of consciousness? How do we determine if something has consciousness? — Tom Storm

    Well yes, I did wonder if my framing was not helpful. I gave it because I was specifically asked for "evidence". So I drew the first analogy that came to mind. Evidence appears in other contexts, but crime is the most obvious one. I shouldn't have framed it in terms of fiction, I should have stuck to real life to avoid your criticism about contrivance. True crime would be better, and that's really what I meant.

    Broadly I guess it's a reframing of the problem of other minds, and possibly the problem of one's own mind as well.

    I was going to write a different OP titled something like "Is there any theory-neutral evidence for consciousness?" but I thought that would narrow the discussion too much. But perhaps it would have been better. With murder, we have a fairly clear concept of what a murder is. That concept then determines what we admit as evidence. So, a bloody dagger found in a bush near a dead body may very well be the kind of thing that would be evidence of a murder. But an observation of a wobble of a star wouldn't be evidence of murder at all. However the observation of the wobble of a star might well be evidence of a planetary orbit, and the dagger is totally irrelevant. So what we admit as evidence is determined by a whole load of definition and theory. In the case of murder, a statutory definition (or common law depending on jurisdiction). For the wobbly star, there's a whole load of background theory that makes the wobble relevant. For example, we need a concept of gravity, and circular orbits, and mass, and the sky as having depth and not like a 2D firmament, etc etc.

    But with consciousness, what do we use to determine what to admit as evidence? Do we look in dictionaries for definitions? Well, I think we should. That will help. But people typically don't do that, and that's really weird. They think definitions are up for grabs. They're not really, not unless we want to invent a technical term. And some definitions, like the Glasgow Coma Scale (thanks to @Banno) make the job really easy. It tells us exactly what to look for. But of course that doesn't capture the sense of 'consciousness' implicated in debates about subjective phenomenal experience. There are dictionary definitions of phenomenal consciousness, e.g.:

    "the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world"

    ...there's lots of variations on the theme. And they tend to heavily employ synonyms, which is interestingly uninformative. Such definitions don't really help much when trying to decide what to admit as evidence. So with phenomenal consciousness, do we need to move beyond definition to theory to know what to admit as evidence? I rather think we do. Taking panpsychism for example, my view is that matter does what it does because of how it feels. Regardless of the truth of that, it does provide a criterion for determining what to admit as evidence. Is that stone conscious? Well, is it doing something? Yes, it's energy-matter behaving in a rockish-way. That action is evidence of its consciousness, but only if we assume panpsychism first! But that's no good is it? When @apokrisis and @180 Proof ask me for evidence, what they want is evidence that doesn't pre-suppose panpsychism! They want a reason to believe it that doesn't pre-suppose it. Similarly, if we look for the presence of brains as evidence of consciousness, that assumes a theory, namely that consciousness has something critical to do with brains. So that led me to try to think of evidence that doesn't pre-suppose any theory at all. And the only single piece of evidence that did not imply a whole load of argument and theory, was the fact that I am conscious. I know I am, regardless of any theoretical commitments (and I know some will question even that).

    So, with regard to a rock and another human being, is there any theory neutral evidence to be had?

    @fdrake
    @Michael
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