It's funny watching the Rep and Dem trying to interrupt Stewart to get their talking points in. They aren't interested in discussion. They are only interested in being "part of their [party's] strategies", as Stewart put it. The part that is "hurting America" as Stewart put it is the inability to see the person on the other side as a person and trying to understand where they are coming from and why they believe what they do. Only then will you be able to find common ground and compromise. — Harry Hindu

That is a culture change following the change in education. We changed how we teach young minds to work. They are no longer prepared for good reasoning.

Does anyone else object to the monetary changes in college football? The media is very much part of this problem, making a big deal out of ball games and totally ignoring high school and college debates. Indeed, today, high schools have ball games but not debate teams.

Democracy has nothing to do with football, but debating is essential to democracy. I want a Statue of Liberty put in schools to remind us of what debating and good reasoning have to do with our liberty and justice. Football is a substitute for war. Winners and losers. You are wrong and I am right. Dominate or serve. God of Abraham religions are divisive, not inclusive. This is a cultural problem.

Which is why the Trump miministration is in such a hurry to abolish science, education and free speech. Their aim is to reduce citizens to abjectly cowering serfs, fighting one another for crumbs off their oppressors' table. — Vera Mont

Trump is a good Christian. :grin: We should all live by faith and stop attempting to reason. Leave everything up to God and Trump. All we need do is obey.

The number 17 doesn't seem to be a matter of cause & effect. It's just a member of the set of integers. You might say it is but an abstraction, but I think it is far more fundamental than that. — noAxioms

Number 17 is not matter. Therefore, number 17 or the word "blue" can not be caused nor effect anything.

I would like to gracefully withdraw from this thread. I do not understand what anyone is saying.

Which is why the Trump miministration is in such a hurry to abolish science, education and free speech. Their aim is to reduce citizens to abjectly cowering serfs, fighting one another for crumbs off their oppressors' table. — Vera Mont

Okay, but this shift does not begin with him, and we can not resolve the problem without a better understanding of it. Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and we need to be aware of it and the changes in education that led us to electing our own Hitler. And preachers are telling us Trump is so strong because God stands by Trump. This is the Germany that followed Hitler because we adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education. We internalized our enemy to have the strongest military force on earth.

My senses can deceive me, so if I cannot trust my senses, I might as well conclude that outside reality doesn't exist; It's just me and you; but if my senses cannot be always trusted then your existence must also might be an illusion. — A Realist

Buddhism addresses this problem. Meditation can bring us to a higher level of consciousness and diminish our ego's grip on us. Lacking self-awareness and being driven by ego can be a hellish delusion.

I think MAGA is in the conventional stage of morality, which is concerned with law and order. I think "law" could be thought of as "consistent authority. It seems to me that MAGA are still waiting for other people (like Trump) to tell them what to do or to fix things, but at least they can see the inconsistency of the left and reject it. — Brendan Golledge

Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people. Not grabbing power like Trump is attempting to do. If that is not understood, we have fought every war for nothing.

Rule by law begins with reasoning. It is understanding logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and good manners. Science supports democracy, not Christianity with its superstition and myth.

Left or right Libertarians can only be those that are abandoning Libertarian views in favor of more authoritarian ones, as in looking to gov. to solve their problems, when their problem is the need to tell others how to live and what "choices" they can make. — Harry Hindu

I hate labeling! Politics needs to be about issues, not imagined divisions.

Only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended, and we haven't done that since 1958. We need to know history and civics. We need literacy in great literature to have a great nation.

Thomas Jefferson believed that an educated citizenry is crucial for a free society. He famously stated, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be". He also emphasized the importance of education for the general public, believing that an informed populace is necessary for a republic to function. AI

Democracy is based on the notion that we can learn and we can do better when all learn and share responsibility for self-government. This mentality is not about choosing sides and being winners or losers as though politics were a form of football.

Please, can we drop labels and talk issues?

Pre-conventional morality is only concerned with power. — Brendan Golledge

I see concern for liberty and justice for all, for which the US has stood for since its beginning. I do not see the connection between that and being a child because it comes with responsibility and the possibility of manifesting a better reality for all of mankind. Our democracy is supposed to be rule by reason, not authoritarian power over the masses.

To me, MAGA is equal to Hitler's propaganda used to manipulate the masses who have been prepared to follow, instead of lead, since the 1958 National Defense Education Act replaced the US model of education with the German model of education for a technological society with unknown values. Since that change in the purpose of education, we have left moral training up to the Church, and now the US is what we defended our democracy against. Church authority is based on superstition and myth and stands in the way of education for good moral reasoning that is essential to democracy. This has caused a moral crisis that threatens our democracy because it leads to authoritarianism.

I do not support "mind-independent reality?" But I must say I do not understand anything you said.

All of reality is a reaction to what is. All things are a matter of cause and effect.

What the heck is a mind-independent reality other than a lack of awareness of the interactions of all things?

I am not sure if anyone is interested in the subject? Maybe it would help to define fascism and what it has to do with injustice?

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, ...
Source:
Wikipedia

Italy (1922–1943)
The first fascist country was Italy, ruled by Benito Mussolini (Il Duce). The Italian Fascists imposed totalitarian rule and crushed political and intellectual opposition, while promoting economic modernization, traditional social values and a rapprochement with the Roman Catholic Church.
List of fascist movements - Wikipedia

It is the Italians we have to thank for our "government of the people, by the people, for the people," because they resurrected the concept and began the renaissance. If it had not been for them the memory of democracy would be lost in the past.

Why did the Renaissance begin in Italy? Because Rome adopted Greek concepts and had a democracy for a while. While most of Europe had agrarian cultures/ economies, the Itallians were traders and merchants and had a cosmopolitan experience. They studied the old documents with the hope of resurrecting the glory of Rome. So here are people who consider justice is served by reasoning and resolving problems together.

We can see it is hard to maintain a democracy for long. Greeks did not consider a large population capable of having a democracy, and it would be nice to see a few thoughts about this. Can the flip from democracy to authoritarianism be accomplished? Is the relationship between political order and justice understood?

↪Athena If you cannot see the argument, we're in the same place we always are Athena. No matter... — AmadeusD

How can I see what is not there? Do you even know what the subject is? You keep making me the subject of what you have to say, and I am not the subject of this thread. Your opinions are not facts, and you are not making arguments that can move a discussion forward.

The military part of the complex has had an influence on civilian rhetoric, rituals, and practices.

Language that was once used exclusively in the military has leaked out into police, fire, first responder forces. Those who died while on duty used to be called fatalities or dead. Now they are called "fallen". Employees of the army used to be called soldiers; now they are called warriors. A fallen warrior has become a secret object.

I found considerable discord at the funeral of a brother who had retired from the army. The family wanted to use several 'martial' gyms and the Methodist pastor rejected their choices as inappropriate. The church did not have American flags in the front of the church. This change had apparently caused a number of veterans to leave the congregation. The ashes urn was covered with a liturgical cloth, rather than the flag which some people wanted. More angst. — BC

I picked up another book with an explanation of how Industry has impacted the military. If that sounds interesting to you, please let me know. I will return to that book for a better understanding. Of course, it makes sense that Industry and the Military would both have an effect on the other, but I didn't think of this.

What is important to me in the discussion of Fascism and Justice, is how we are organized and who has controlling power and who does not.

Money plays a big part in all this. For years, I have tried to wrap my head around the economics of power and control. At the end of WWII, a book warned of the danger of the new relationship between Industry and the Military. I want to know more, and if anyone is aware of the changing bureaucratic models and relationships, please let me know.

That is your uninformed judgment, you know? For information you need to ask a question, or to make an argument, you need to offer your reasoning, not just your opinion of the strength of my argument.

I am writing this thread as there is a crisis in the Welfare State and NHS currently. I am sure that this goes back a long way. The Labour government of Starmer (and Rachel Reeves) are trying to find solutions, with a radical overhaul. However, so many people are so extremely disappointed because the solutions seem to target vulnerable growth, especially the elderly, disabled and people with mental health problems. Actually, from budgets and proposed policy it is questionable who will benefit, if anyone. — Jack Cummins

I think we need to begin with a reality check. What resources does each nation have and how many people need those resources? We live on a finite planet as though nothing were finite. If populations were suddenly cut in half, those who remained would be valuable. Property owners would slash their rents in competition for renters. The housing market could also be flooded with would-be homeowners, and the cost of housing would crash.

I am forever thinking of the gold rush and how overnight there were booming gold and silver towns. When the mines were depleted, all property value fell as people left town, the bank was closed and businesses moved away. All that is left is ghost towns. Could that be prevented? How does a nation without capital build an industrial base? In reality, how do economies work? Should Iceland become a dependent part of the Great USA? Without the mineral resources of Iceland, would it be important for the USA to rule over Iceland? How do economies work?

"His support of Israel equals Hitler.
— Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry. — AmadeusD

Hmm, the title of this thread is Fascism and Justice. That makes your argument delicious.

Wikipedia say this:

Fascism prioritizes the nation over the individual, who exists to serve the nation." and as "an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy. It combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism.

What is the best way to unite us against them?

Decades ago, the sociologist Georg Simmel argued that nothing unites a nation, or any group of people for that matter, quite like having a common enemy. Recent research by Mark Landau (professor of psychology, University of Kansas), though not testing unity of groups, does indicate that having enemies provides some psychological benefits. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201110/enemies-enhance-the-meaning-of-life

Trump's position on Palestian makes these people the enemy as surely as Hitler's position on Jews made them the enemy. He is playing into Bush's war on evil and the power and glory of the Christian US. What is being done to the Palestinians is totally unacceptable, but Trump has made anyone who speaks against what Iseal is doing, the enemy. But the enemy is not just the Palestinians and those who defend them, but everyone who was not born in the US and whose parents were not born in the US. The enemy is everyone who is not one of us and the left who have ruined our country. Everyone is out to ruin the US, and therefore, the Right must stand together and fight like hell.

Christians are thrilled with this strong leader just as the Nazi were thrilled with Hitler. Both the followers of Hitler and Trump believe they were treated badly and their country was being ruined, and now it is time to fight like hell to make America great again. And like good Hegel followers, it doesn't matter how much immediate changes are hurting individual citizens because they all should be willing to sacrifice for the glory of the nation.

Hitler and the Nazi Party led the process of rearmament and reorganization of German society with the intent of 'purifying' German society, acquiring lebensraum, and getting even with the Allies. The German Plan wasn't a state secret. The details were laid out in domestic propaganda. — BC

That is what I am seeing today.

I want to talk about the essential change in bureaucracy and the relationship with education and culture.

In our past, the US had great leaders like Washington and Lincoln, and Hamilton. At this time in history, everyone did his/her job as best as s/he could. There is a problem with this, when someone dies, it takes months for everyone to adjust to the new person. The Prussians avoided that problem by controlling everything with policy. Every job was closely defined and everyone could die but the bureaucracy never dies. It is no longer strong and creative human beings running the show, but the policy that defines what the job is and how it will be done. Everyone becomes replaceable.

That change in bureaucracy becomes a change in education because we are no longer preparing our Washington, Lincoln or Hamilton to step up and lead. With merit hiring, we want someone who can do the job as well as the person before. Instead of education for life and leadership, it is education for technological skills. Gone are the days when everyone was prepared for civic and industrial leadership. Like the Borg, we want someone we can just plug in and do the job. No personal judgment needed, just read the policy.

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. — BC

I think we can see what Trump is doing with the power of fear. You know like Niccolo Machiavelli. Trump is building on fear. Could I be the next to lose my job? Can the college survive the loss of federal help? Why is it that anything said against what Israel has done to Palestine is illegal, antisemitic?
How many immigrants feel safe enough to argue against what is happening? How about a Palestinian who hears over and over again about Israel's right to defend itself and not a peep about Palestine's right to self-defense?

You know what, it doesn't matter if we see the lies, when we do not dare call out the liar. If you can not get a good job without joining the Nasi party, you keep your mouth shut and do what you have to do to pay your bills.

And while this hateful thing is going on, TV preachers continue to support Trump and tell us he is supported by God. We are dealing with a myth just as the Germans were dealing with a myth. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Schools were used to mobilize our nation for the two World Wars. Understanding the importance of this is difficult today because we are judging the world as it is now. Especially when we entered WWI, we were very low-tech. Women knitted socks and scarves for military men. Schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our wheat overseas and feed the allies. Even at the end of WWII, people came home to outhouses and wood stoves.

My copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference is an amazing piece of history explaining everything the schools did to raise patriotism and support the war effort. Back in the day, we supported the wars by buying war bonds. Children used their lunch money to buy war bonds and schools sold them. Our main defense was patriotic citizens who understood why democracy must be defended, not military technology. Germany was more technologically prepared for war than the US, before the 1958 National Defense Education Act gave us rapidly increasing military technology.

The point I'd like to make is the difference education can make. Our schools were the best organization we had for mobilizing us for war. At the start of WWI we didn't even have a market for radios. Newspapers were the only news source. People living on farms, as most people did, were not well informed when working was more important than going to college. We live in a changed world, but back in the day, mobilizing a nation the size of the US was a huge feat. Knowing what we did then leads me to believe we could do it again if we understood the importance of education to democracy. If we want to make our nation great again, we need to begin with out schools.

I agree with what you said about morality but I do not believe the end result will always be anarchy.

There is a notion called "logos" coming out of Athens. Logos is the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. Moral is to know the universal laws and have good manners. Later, Cicero, who studied in Athens, concluded that it is our nature to do the right thing when we know what that is. At the beginning of the Renaissance, Italians went with the notion that educated people can reach a consensus about morals, and they can govern themselves. Workers were educated for good citizenship and to be self-governing. This education is the trivium.

The Trivium - The Regina Academies
The Trivium is a foundational model in classical education, comprising three stages of learning: Grammar, Logic (also known as Dialectic), and Rhetoric. It's often seen as a framework for cultivating critical thinking, effective communication, and a broad understanding of the world.

AI

Poetry, history, and literature teach how to have the good life.

That was the model for education in the US until 1958 when the the National Defense Education Act was [passed for national defense reasons. Those who made that decision had a very limited idea of what was and what was needed. They lacked wisdom! We are now what we defended our democracy against. Anarchy being very much a part of the problem because education for technology is not education for life, liberty, and justice.

Only when the young are prepared for democracy is democracy protected. We stopped doing that in 1958 and put fascism in full control. I need to get to @BC with this explanation of fascicm.

I think we create morals, as a society, over time. Cause and effect plays a role in that these morals get refined and adjusted by a process of trial and error when we interact with the world. But it's not like science that we just go observing the world and find out what the causes and effects are. There's also a 'subjective' valuing part to it and so there's not only one correct true answer that follows from facts about the world.

So separate societies develop different moralities because of historical contingencies, and these then get passed on to the next generations. To some extend there's an arbitrary element to them that cannot be fully justified rationally or empirically, but has to be taken on faith. Since we live in groups it is also important that there is some coherence to the morals being pursued in the same group. Myths function to justify and anchor those moralities in coherent and comprehensive stories, because that is the way we pass them on and remember them best.

If we come to question those mythical foundations, like say via the scientific method, you eventually also end up losing the justification and anchor for that particular morality. And then people start questioning them and develop their own particular diverging views on it... and you eventually end up with the anarchy or chaos I was referring to (nihilism or Durkheim would call it anomie).

That is when people instinctively start asking for some kind of unifying power to remedy the situation, which can be abused by fascists and the like. — ChatteringMonkey

The stories "Little Red Hen", "The Fox and Grapes", "The Little Engine that Could" are all moral stories. We would read them to our children and ask, "What is the moral of that story?" The expected answer is a matter of cause and effect. No one helped the Little Red Hen so she didn't share her bread. The fox gave up on getting the grapes and the message is don't give up. The Little Engine that could did not give up.

This is important because nature is the ruler! If we do not do the right thing, things go bad. This understanding is essential to democracy and the Greek passion for getting things right. There is no violating the laws of nature and not being punished because your prayers to God worked and God decised to let you get away with doing things wrong. In short, we better be sure about the carbon dioxide in the air because God isn't going to save our sorry asses if we screw things up.

Before science people knew if they did the wrong things, things would go bad. Moral? do it right.

At first, I thought I absolutely had to buy a copy of "The Complex: How the Military Invades Our Everyday Lives". But after reading what you said, I am not that interested. However, I am listening to lectures about language and from that perspective, the book might be interesting. We might also consider the effect of changing the meaning of words and having a language based on war instead of family and community. I think that would be a strong unconscious factor.

Your explanation of discord at the funeral is important to the subject. In the past, Military rank was most important to the German, while in the US, industrial leadership was the way to have status. One book I read spoke of a good German father wanting his daughter to marry a military man, while in the US, a good father wanted his daughter to marry an industrial leader. I can see those choices impacting culture and the whole of society. We are defining what is a good man and a good woman. What is the identity of someone who died, a warrior or a family wo/man obidient to God? Where do our loyalties lie?

It's an attempt at overcoming a culture that has become nihilistic by creating a new shared nationalistic myth. — ChatteringMonkey

I had to look up Nihilistic: "Nihilistic means believing that life is meaningless and that there are no values or truths. It can also refer to extreme skepticism or a rejection of established institutions."

Okay, who is pushing the fasict agenda?

First the metaphysical/mythological basis of morality dissolves over time. — ChatteringMonkey

How can this happen if morality is understood as cause and effect?

Then you get fascism trying to rectify that by imposing a new kind of order onto a choatic society. — ChatteringMonkey

That statement is true. It is a mistake to believe freedom means doing anything we want to do or say because that leads to doing and saying immoral things. That leads to anarchy and then fascism. Without virtues and principles, the bad can consume the good. Education is important so we share concepts of virtues and principles.

However, Christianity is a problem because it is myth and not truth. It is nuts to live without a standard for judging truth and figuring out cause and effect (morals). As long as people have children, there will be a desire to get things right so the children have good lives.

So Hitler had death camps and he invaded almost the entirety of Europe, putting the overall death toll to well over 50 million people. That's one subtle difference between him and Trump.

Trump is the king the left tried to shoot but missed. So now he's just a guy who wants to destroy all vestiges of liberalism. DEI, support for Palestine, climate change regulation, trans rights, government employment opportunities, open borders, elite universities, you name it. — Hanover

Trump is not done yet. His support of Israel equals Hitler. His demand that Iceland becomes a US territory because the US needs its resources is equal to Hitler. What he is doing to prevent freedom of speech is equal to Hitler. Replacing people who disagree with him is like Hitler. Trump's lust for power is like Hitler, and ministers telling us Trump is powerful because God makes him powerful, is a horror of blending religion and politics. And calling Trump a king is very Christian and undemocratic.

I don't believe that the US had the basis for a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) before WWII. What we had was a very large industrial establishment largely focused on consumer production/. The Great Depression suppressed consumer demand, of course. Military production ended the 1930s depression for us, just as it ended an earlier depression for Germany.

The US prepared for WWII by marshaling the huge industrial resources of the country for military production. Ford, General Motors, Kaiser aluminum / ship building, aircraft manufacturers, Westinghouse, petroleum products, General Electric -- everybody, basically -- switched to a command economy in military goods. — BC

I love you! Exactly things have changed. The US demobilized after every war until Korea. I have a book written after WWII warning what has happened would happen. We didn't fully demobilize because of fear of returning to the depression time economy. Eisenhower's way of managing transition was slow and careful, not like Trump. But let's not forget it is the people who want a STRONG MAN and this goes with Bible stories. You can bet industry did not want to give up those wartime contracts, and they did mean jobs and economic growth.

The cold war and Sputnik were the main justifications for the Military Industrial Complex and the US taking on caring for the whole world and standing behind Israel as it commits genocide to fulfil its desire to have all of what was Palestine. Trump is not all wrong. I do not like the man and I don't think his judgement could be worse, but he is not all wrong.

If this were a Nintendo game that I could replay, I would go back to Roosevlt and the New Deal. At that time W. Edwards Deming tried to get the US to adopt his industrial management model but our autocratic industry rejected that idea. So Deming taught his system to the Japanese and the Japanese kicked our butts in completion for world markets.

W. Edwards Deming, an American statistician and management consultant, played a crucial role in shaping Japan's post-World War II industrial model. Starting in 1950, Deming taught Japanese businessmen and managers his philosophy, which included the importance of statistical quality control and total quality management. This system, later known as the System of Profound Knowledge, emphasized continuous improvement and customer satisfaction, significantly impacting Japan's rise as an economic power. AI

.

Deming's model is democratic, and if the US had adopted his system in the 50's we would have a different reality today. That is especially true if after 4 years the US had returned to its Domestic education preparing the young for good citizenship and good moral judgment. Today if we had democratic industry and education for democracy, there would be no Trump because there would be no problems to make someone want Trump.

OK. But would you please say more about what was it that the US copied from German / Prussian bureaucracy. Or, how was German / Prussian bureaucracy different than, say, French bureaucracy? — BC

I could quote from my books to answer your question, but will try to sumerize the important points.

Think military order. The Germans were organized by their social status, and social status was about family. Was a person from a family with a high or low status? High-status people were given leadership roles, and the peasant was not. Ponder this. We are talking about our identity here and what is expected of us and who has opportunity in life and who does not. We are also talking about social order and what that has to do with military order.

Prusia lived for military power as we live for God. While the rest of Germany was kind of your hippie folk, being creative and enjoying socializing. After the 30 Years' War, the Germans wanted nothing to do with war, or the struggle of uniting everyone, but they were threatened by their neighbors, so they turned to Prussia to unite and protect Germany.

Right after the end of WWII, Eisenhower wrote a letter to Germany thanking them for their contribution to democracy. Why would he do that? Because the Prussians changed the military order and that changed social order. Family order is social order, and the past very much economic order. This ordering shapes our identities and positions and opportunities. The Prussians threw out family order and ordered everyone based on merit. The top generals set military policy and goals, but now anyone could become a general. Get it?

The US adopted the German model of education because it opens opportunity to everyone. No longer do you get the job on the train because your Dad works for the railroad. Now you have to have the right education and experience to get the job and to advance. England rejected this education that leads to equality because it wanted to protect its class society. I have seen arguments for why we should have taken Germany's side in the first world war. Democracy and the social order a monarchy carry a tension because of conflicts of interest. :fire: Christianity makes this more complex. Another tension between believers and science.

I feel awful saying so much without giving you a turn but this is all rather complex. We had education for citizenship and good moral judgment. Eisenhower asked Congress to pass the 1958 National Defense Education Act, which was supposed to last 4 years but totally replaced our domestic education. It is not the gay folk who have weakened the family. Not that long ago we had industries based on family order and community. I don't know if we will have any industry based on family order today. We have autocracy industry and that is not compatible with democracy. Before we can go any further, I need to see your ID. :lol: I am kidding, but more has changed than we realize.

I worked over an hour on a reply and deleted it. Now I have to run. There is nothing I rather do than work on a reply, but I must take care of mundane things like having food this week. :lol:

Everything might be easier to talk about if we limit it to the Prusian takeover of Germany and the change in the Prusian social status and military order. The US adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education for technology for military and industrial purpose. The US is what it defended its democracy against, and Trump is our Hitler. Your comments about what Hitler did to gain control are important. It is also important to understand the ground work for Trump being Hitler has been laid over a period of time and our ignorance of this makes us powerless. The citizens of the US are not the political and economic force they want to belief they are. Someone else is running this Military military-industrial complex.

Please focus more closely on the military-industrial complex. What changes did the US make to become a military-industrial complex with a president who acts like he can and should control most of the world?

I am running late, I hope to get back to you soon.

It has been a busy day and now I am exhausted, so I will invite you to do the explaining. What do you think fascism is? What is your understanding of a military industrial complex? What does culture have to do with manifesting or not manifesting democracy or authoritarianism? How was Germany different from the US when the US mobilized against it?

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. Trump's administration is not 100 days old, yet, so give resistance time to congeal. There were, over the weekend, large demonstrations against Trump across the country. Demonstrations, of course, generally do not deliver knock-out punches. Anti Vietnam demonstrations went on for quite a long time before the war ended. — BC

The colleges, judges, and congress are not taking a strong stand against Trump, and in the meantime, anyone who has criticized his policies or what Israel has done to the Palestinians has lost their job. A woman working in Greenland who headed research, has been fired for saying the wrong thing to the vice president about Trump's ambition of taking over iceland. I am afraid the time to take Trump down was when he lost the election to Biden. I know not everyone approved of Hitler. So what. Their disapproval did not stop him, did it? Today many people working in Iceland have been fired for speaking against Trump's position, and those who might have been able to stop Trump are quivering in fear and finding that he is always right. Hail Trump.

I very much get that. It’s why our voices matter. To become voiceless in a time of conflict – this when speaking up does not lead to dire perils with any significant degree of certainty (as it would in full-blown fascism) – is to in effect empower the extremist factions which see no value in democratic principles and the heuristics which bring these democratic principles into practice.

It’s not quite trust, nor belief, so I’ll say that I have faith in the younger generations at large. Their lives are just beginning to undergo the calamities of an ever-increasing climate change which they’ll have to live the entirety of their lives through. And while some of the old farts amongst us might adopt a “que sera sera” attitude toward the future, the young are for the most part experiencing a wakeup call. But they’re up against power-hording, authoritarian institutions (economic as much as political) which nowadays have surveillance capacities that the Nazis and the Stalinist Commies could have only dreamt of.

And this, again, is why voices – such as yours – matter. — javra

You give me hope. At this moment in time, we have a president who could throw the entire world into a depression or a world war and ministers telling us this President is so strong because God has chosen him to lead our country at this time. A lot goes into this, including hundreds of years of believing it is God's will that White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants are destined by God to rule the world. Gone is the wisdom of the past that restricted the power of this nation.

Religion and mythology being the same. "The Mythology of the West: America as the Last Empire" by Jan Willeum Schulte Nordholt is something of which we should all be aware. It lives in our cultural subconscious like a mold growing in the dark and contaminating the air. It goes with the notion of a God having favorite people and, consequently, hatred of those who are not one of us. Such as the Native Americans, Blacks, Jews, Muslims, and women in general. It is a hateful hierarchy of power and authority that should not be growing in our cultural subconscious.

It is basically the same mythology that brought Germany to fascism. This idea that a god has favorite people and this god blesses them even when they destroy the lives of others, exploit humans and the earth. When the British, Germans, and Americans have run on this mythology, the god is a war god who helps them win wars and never holds them accountable. Look at what Israel has done to the Palestinians with the belief a God favors them and our president trying to silence us so none dare speak of this horrible wrong.

Can we expose this myth and lead all to feel accountable? Can we talk about bureaucratic organization and the importance of a design chosen to limit the powers of government? During Roosevelt's administration, we were warned that the new powers of government created with the New Deal could come back to bite us if future presidents were not highly principled and wise. At the end of WWII we were warned of the wartime relationship of Industry and Government (and God).

If we do not become aware of what lurks in the dark, we live in the darkness, powerless to enjoy the new way of life we were given because of the enlightenment.

Seems to me that those who don't feel safe will not speak up against authoritarianism and fascism because of this very concern or else fear. Whereas those who don't see any problems with authoritarianism and fascism - maybe due to believing these to work in their favor - will not have any reason to speak up against them. — javra

Once Aristotle gave the world an explanation of the earth as the center of the universe, no one seriously wanted to investigate if he was right or wrong. When Galileo started studying the heavens with a telescope, he began writing and talking about what he saw and that Aristotle was wrong, so the church stepped in to silence him because the Bible says we are the center of the universe. Then, some nut cases came up and started to ague we must question authority and what we think we know. :scream:
That started the Enlightenment and movement to democracy. That is liberal education. Education for technology prepares us to rely on authority. There is so much to know, we can not research everything for ourselves, so we must depend on those who have done the research.

Who understands fascism is government control of everything? or how about reading Tocqueville's 1830 Democracy in America and why Christianity leads to dependency on an all controlling government.
This is a matter of bureaucratic order. We have private property but the government regulates industry and sexual identification. :lol: Good luck with that.

Trump might not be as much an aberration as left/liberal types think. Trumpism has precedents. If you look over the history of the US, particularly since the Civil War (now some 160 years ago), there have been several highly illiberal, fascistic movements -- the KKK; anti-labor / union busting organizations; America First / isolationism; actual Nazis and Nazi sympathizers; white supremacists / white separatists; Christian nationalists, etc. They are a plague in the body politic.

Why, then, are we not a fascistic country? The government played a role in suppressing movements which threatened to rock the boat -- on the right and on the left both. Americans, by and large, have not bought into extreme ideology. (Perhaps extreme right wing ideology has had more success than extreme left wing ideology.).

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. Trump's administration is not 100 days old, yet, so give resistance time to congeal. There were, over the weekend, large demonstrations against Trump across the country. Demonstrations, of course, generally do not deliver knock-out punches. Anti Vietnam demonstrations went on for quite a long time before the war ended.

More significant resistance will arise in the courts (or not; we'll see). Perhaps Republicans will lose control of Congress in two years (2027). Or not; we'll see. There is a good chance that Trumps tariff frenzy my trigger a recession. We the People don't like recessions, and we may be spurred to resolute and decisive action. Or not; we'll see.

In the meantime we have imbeciles in high office, which is a disaster in itself. — BC

The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology, and we can not have an intelligent discussion about the social, economic, and political ramifications until at least two people understand this subject enough to talk about it.

Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and it appears everyone has ignored him. If they can not take Eisenhower seriously who is going to care about what I am saying? With the German models of bureaucracy and education, all our institutions are what we fought against. Trump is our Hitler because that is what the people are educated to follow.

A teacher warned us of the problem when we mobilized for the first world war. The bureaucracy crushes individual liberty and power and the education is about relying on the experts- something Eisenhower warned us about.

as I read your post, I thought of the people who are completely out of their minds because of alcohol, drugs, or mental illness. Right now, a friend's neighbor is insane because she not using her meds. There is nothing anyone can do for her because we have gone too far with giving people freedom. My friend and I think someone needs to step in before something really bad happens or the woman is evicted and thrown on the streets where she not possible survive for long. How awful to be driven by thoughts that are crazy. What is consciousness then?

I wish I’d be – or at least find reason to be – more optimistic about the times we’re living in. I’m not. And I haven’t even started on the increasing calamities which will accompany increased global warming. — javra

While I write about some pretty awful things, always in my mind is the enlightenment and why we have democracy. Education for technology has given us the most powerful military force on earth and a lot of fun toys. I am really thankful for the internet that comes out of national defence research. And who can live without a microwave oven? :scream: I also live with a firm belief that education for democracy and using the democratic model for industry would make our democracy very strong and correct the problems that destroying us right now. Those two things would give our young the closest us as close to heaven on earth that humans can get.

My worst fear is that I will die before enough people understand what I am saying to spread these ideas and give our young a chance of having a good future.

Justice here is no longer that which is seen as applying to all equally (justice for all) but, instead, is that which empowers one’s own agendas so as to conquer all those that oppose your own will, this irrespective of the double standards involved. — javra

I had a great lesson in what logic has to do with justice. In the 70's my grandchildren were made wards of the state. At that time, the Department for Children's Services had a very bad opinion of parents whose sons and daughters got into trouble. With good intentions, the schools were promoting the notion that education for technology would make the young so much better than their poorly educated parents, and with the 1970 recession causing people to go bankrupt and to lose their homes, the young were very glad they would do better than their stupid parents. :lol: At the time, politicians were being blamed and many of them looked like crooks, but our young saw those crooks as the winners, not like their loser parents. It was just the climate at that time that set the stage for things that followed.

So the Children's Services is overwhelmed because meth, a drug known in Hitler's time, suddenly appeared on the streets and we made it law that running away from home was not a crime, so the police could not help us with our run away children. The children services people wanted to save our children who they thought were victims of bad parents. But they didn't have good homes for the children so they were putting them up for adoption with the same mentality as selling slaves. Talk about tyranny! Judgements were made by what was written in a file, and the case worker had 100% control of making the file. You can safely bet the case workers wrote those files to make themselves look good.

So a case worker uses what happened in November to justify her decision in the previous July. When I pointed out a decision made in November can not justify what happened in July I finally won an argument. I don't know, is my reasoning good? My point is what logic has to do with justice, but my memory comes with a lot of thinking errors that were very tyrannical until a bunch of us grandparents got the state to change policy and assure us of visitation rights. Today, extended family members are the first people who are contacted to take custody of children.

As far as my personal observations and perspectives go:

Anti-democratic sentiments have been simmering for quite some time in certain aspects of the US, in all sorts of ways. From not wanting to partake in civic duties (e.g., in jury duty) to an outright denouncement of democracy as a system of governance.

Many, maybe too many, people value authoritarian power. Deeming the populace (of which one might say they too belong to) to be idiots and blindly led sheep. That thereby need to be domineered.

Bad parenting – e.g., parents who laugh at teachers who tell them to restrain their children from cursing in school (to say the least) – tends to result in more selfish adolescents who put their own narrow and selfish interests before those of all others without much if any empathy for others, and with bullying on the rise, sometimes taking extreme forms. Which in turn leads to even more bad parenting.

Justice here is no longer that which is seen as applying to all equally (justice for all) but, instead, is that which empowers one’s own agendas so as to conquer all those that oppose your own will, this irrespective of the double standards involved.

The next generation of adults then hold these attitudes that were accumulated during their formative years, and then they vote, often this to empower authoritarian causes.

Then, there’s the vested interest of the authoritarian powers that be – political, economic, makes no significant difference – that the plebs at large are as uneducated and as fragmented as possible (no sense of community or solidarity among the plebs). Not only does this deprive commoners of any nobility of being but, more to the point, it facilitates greater capacity for authoritarian power-over and the financial wealth thereby accumulated – this, again, by the authoritarian powers that be. And all this is pivoted on an economy that is a global Ponzi scheme of sorts: a global economy that assumes infinite growth via infinite resources (by which new entrepreneurs supposedly have a chance to themselves get as big as the the biggest). And, as with all pyramid schemes, it will eventually go bust – but, here, on a global scale of economic devastation.

I wish I’d be – or at least find reason to be – more optimistic about the times we’re living in. I’m not. And I haven’t even started on the increasing calamities which will accompany increased global warming.

Unless a global cataclysm – e.g., a nuclear catastrophe, but there are other means of accomplishing the same cataclysm – reverts all of humanity back to segregated hunter-gather tribes of a dozen people or so – this being something which seems extremely unlikely, to not mention utterly undesirable, such as due to all the advances that will then be lost – in time there will indeed be a global governance. I’m thinking in terms of a few generations from now, more or less – but not in terms of millennia. Like the notion of not, it’s inevitable – this given our ever increasing interconnectedness via technology, economy, and the like. That stated, the concern here is that this global governance will not be a democratic republic, one that thereby aims for optimal justice for all citizens of the planet and seeks to give all citizens an equal voice in how they get to be governed. But that, instead, this global governance will turn out to be fully Orwellian, with pervasive fascistic structures and with injustices galore. And if such authoritarian power is ever acquired over all others on a global scale, it will be unimaginably hard to do away with.

As backdrop to this forethought, as things currently stand, globally, governments are turning increasingly authoritarian – this, obviously, on the backs of many who then unjustly suffer or else unjustly die.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Each point you make excites me more.

[quote[1. Anti-democratic sentiments have been simmering for quite some time in certain aspects of the US, in all sorts of ways. From not wanting to partake in civic duties (e.g., in jury duty) to an outright denouncement of democracy as a system of governance.[/quote]

Clearly, those who do not want to take on civic responsibility do not understand that the meaning of democracy is government of the people, for the people, by the people. That is how Lincoln defined our democracy and quoted he was quoting Perciles of Athens, who died in 429 BC. Athens was at war with Sparta, and he made it clear why that war had to be fought by clarifying how the two city-states were different.

Which citizen should not have an understanding of what civic duty is and what it has to do with democracy, but today, how is anyone to know such things? I keep saying that only when democracy is defended in the classroom, is it defended but I might as well be explaining that to dolphins because there is not enough common knowledge of democracy for words to have meaning.

Many, maybe too many, people value authoritarian power.

What is the most important information of a nation? May I suggest it is religion? The Bible is about kings and slaves, and in 1958, the US replaced its domestic education with education for a technological society with unknown values, and it left moral training to the Church. What part of the Bible prepares people for democracy? There are two ways to have social order. Culture or authority over the people. Which choice does the Bible promote? We stopped passing on the culture built on virtues and principles in 1958. That leaves only authority over the people.

Bad parenting – e.g., parents who laugh at teachers who tell them to restrain their children from cursing in school (to say the least) – tends to result in more selfish adolescents who put their own narrow and selfish interests before those of all others without much if any empathy for others, and with bullying on the rise, sometimes taking extreme forms. Which in turn leads to even more bad parenting.

The 1917 National Education Association Conference was about mobilizing the US for the First World War. At that conference, the main issue was patriotism. How do we make our young patriotic citizens understand why democracy must be defended? Back in the day, education beyond learning to read and write and do math was not part of the schools' responsibility. There were no IQ tests so schools could identify those best suited for higher education, and all education was not about preparing the young for college. However, EDUATION WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT LIFE LONG LEARNING BECAUSE A GOOD CITINEN IS A WELL INFORMED CITIZEN.

The primary reason for free public schools was to teach the young to be good citizens, and it was known that immigrant parents and rural parents would learn good citizenship from their children. The primary defense of our nation was patriotic citizens who understood why our democracy must be defended. When it came to military technology, Germany was far ahead of the US, but our patriotic morale was high, and that did not change until the 1958 National Defense Education Act. The US adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education. We might do well to remember that Germany was a Christian Republic and our enemy in two world wars. Now, like Romans, we seem to be enjoying the destructive chaos of our nation and Christians are thrilled about being proven right about the end times. Ignorant of the rise and fall of civilizations throughout time.

This post is too long, so it has to stop here. I would very much appreciate reactions to what has been said by both of us.

I have been reading the posts here, and I am not sure what qualifies as a good argument. I am a complete amateur, but perhaps I could settle on my ideas of why democracy is important. :chin: I think I need to increase my awareness of humanism versus materialism. How long do we have to submit a paper?

AI says: Humanists stand for the building of a more humane, just, compassionate, and democratic society using a pragmatic ethics based on human reason, experience, and reliable knowledge-an ethics that judges the consequences of human actions by the well-being of all life on Earth.

This is a whole different approach than education for technology minus the humanities and leaving moral training to the church as Germany did for military and industrial reasons. @Jack what you said is very much on my mind.

I want to note for myself, the democratic model for industry, along with education for democracy could resolve our most serious problems.

Are you sure? The subject of this thread is the writing of philosophical essay.
Maybe you can write one on what the problem with philosophy is. — Vera Mont

Thank you, but I can not write anything without others being involved. It may not seem like it, but I rely on what you all think. If I only cared about what I think, there would be no point in coming here. I am not sure but a philosophical contrast of materialism versus humanism or technology verses humanism may have some philosophical benefit. But I would not have thought of that without @Jack's thoughts.

:lol: Many years ago I read Edward Hall's book Beyond Culture. He totally shattered my confidence that I knew enough to think for myself. It took a few weeks to restructure a new understanding of reality. I am going through another period of being sure I do not know enough to pretend that I do know. Alan Jacob's book "How to Think" has made me very humble and unsure of myself and also excited about what can be if we come together and walk through hell as though we own the place. Everyone knows we have to stop being victims. We just haven't shared thoughts about this. I think most of us are running around like victims in an earthquake or hurricane. If we have a sense of power, it is the power of belonging to the crowd, right wing or left wing. But if we think about this, we might be aware of feelings of powerlessness. People in a democracy must feel united, powerful and effective. If they do not, they are not experiencing democracy. Being dependent on a strong man is not having a democratic experience.

I hope that you do not get pneumonia. What governments don't seem to be paying attention to is the way that social conditions affect mental and physical health. In England, there is a drive to get people back to work but without attention to why they are getting sick. But, I won't say too much in this specific thread other than to say that the role of the philosopher may be to look in a more analytical way, drawing together ideas from various disciplines, with clear arguments.

It's probably not a topic that I would pursue for this particular activity in though, as I think that it watching too much news which contributed to me getting unwell recently. Not that I wish to side-step politics. I nearly started a thread on it while in hospital but decided it would probably make me deteriorate if I did it at this moment. All in good time and right place. If anything, I see the question of so much trouble as raising the issue of collapse or potential transformation. But I am sure that I have said this many times in various threads. Of course, it is an area which you, or someone else could tackle for this activity in a unique way. — Jack Cummins

I like how you understand what I am saying. But that said, I am reading "How to Think" by Alan Jacobs, and I need to warn against the notion that we are independent thinkers and that a few of us are far better thinkers than most. Our thinking is a social thing. It is all of us together that assures the best decision making or really off-the-wall extreme left or extreme right thinking that we indulge in to be part of the right group. Even if that other may have a very low IQ, this person may have a perspective and an awareness that is important to the group decision. Some may notice I am most passionate about Hitler and fascism because such matters were discussed at the dinner table. I didn't learn just facts but how we should feel about those facts and to think about the values and the dangers.

My childhood is the foundation upon which I build with books, documentaries, and hopefully, forum discussions. Well, I am weird- I feel connected with all of humanity since the beginning of humanity and at the same time realize how much I do not know. So how can philosophy help us manage our prejudices since we were children, and history, and present day events? How do we prevent stress from becoming a mental or physical problem? What can we do to help each other?

Can we change "more analytical way" to more organic way? What we are missing is the humanness and the connectedness. Education for technology has helped with some things, but how human is being analytical? AI can analyze but it is not human, it is not organic and we have lost our way as though happiness requires something outside of ourselves rather than our experience of ourselves. We need to change the conversation as you did by mentioning the health problems that are made worse by a materialistic understanding instead of a humanistic understanding.

Of course, it is an area which you, or someone else could tackle for this activity in a unique way. — Jack Cummins

Help me here, I am fixated on being a citizen as a human experience and as it was warned when entered WWI, speaking of the German model of bureaucracy it crushes individual liberty and power.
Does the notion of shifting from materialism to humanism stir any new notions?

How about this quote: "If your path determines you walk through hell, walk as though you own the place."

Seems to me that those who don't feel safe will not speak up against authoritarianism and fascism because of this very concern or else fear. Whereas those who don't see any problems with authoritarianism and fascism - maybe due to believing these to work in their favor - will not have any reason to speak up against them. — javra

Thank you. Firing people for saying something that is not liked seems the most threatening thing that can happen to our democracy. It was how Hitler and the fascists gained unstopable control of the masses. Only those loyal to Hitler and fascism got jobs. People who were not in agreement with fascism and Hitler didn't dare speak of their opposing views. Jews didn't dare make it known they were Jews because they would lose everything, including their lives. ID cards were essential for any rights or privileges. AI says this; "During WWII, German membership in organizations like the Wehrmacht (military) and the SS (elite paramilitary organization) was essential for the Nazi regime's military and ideological goals, including rearmament, expansion, and the enforcement of racial policies." (how different is our present treatment of immigrants even when the have green cards, and people with different sexual notions than the label on their birth certificate?)

The problem was well documented in the book "the NAZI Officer's Wife; How One Jewish woman Survived the Holocaust by Edith Hahn Beer with Susan Dworkin.

When I was a child, my family talked about how this use of ID cards was what happened in evil Europe, as though such a thing would never happen in the US. Well, today we can be denied flights unless we have special ID's that provide far more information than successfully passing the driver's test. When the school told us to inspect our homes for fire hazards and report to the school, my parents became unglued! Germans reported their families and neighbors, not US citizens, but today not only are some states encouraging reporting people to authority, they encourage reporting their families and neighbors to authority and the state even pay the snitch. These are good Christians who forgot Jesus stood against reporting people to authority.

What is happening did not start with Trump, and we might look behind the curtain to see what is really going on and who is in control.

Back to the question of this thread: Could we function without consciousness? Machines function without consciousness, and animals are preprogrammed, so they can function without consciousness.

Going with the reading about thinking that I have done, we mostly operate without thinking, and we run on automatic. We drive best and dance best when we can do these things without thinking. We might even write better without being aware of why we think as we do. Great inventions have been the result of intuition or a dream.

When we do think, there is no assurance we are doing that well and with the correct information. Our decisions may be based on childhood memories of which we are not aware. Discussing our childhoods with a brother or sister may result in very different stories that do not agree. We are conscious only of our own point of view, and learning of our past by accepting someone's story is as legitimate as ours, may be life-changing.

I realized that, but since you mentioned it again, I wonder, was it easier for you to do such work when you were younger or do you feel your years have improved your thinking? I miss the energy I once had but think I am developing a better understand of meaning. I just don't have the energy for all the work you did. I wish we lived at least 300 years with a constant feeling of energy. I think we could come up with some awesome thinking.