I agree that Native Americans have an interesting history and culture. But I think the main culture that is currently on the rise tends to be not Native American but Afro-American. Other cultures that I can think of around the world are Chinese Communist and Islamic. And they all seem to be male-dominated .... — Apollodorus

Some tribes were/are matriarchies because we can be sure who the mother is, and the earth is our mother so it makes sense the women inherit the land and the man's role is to defend her.

A woman's highest calling is to lead a man to his soul so as to unite him with source. A man's highest calling is to protect woman so she can walk the earth unharmed. — Cherokee proverb

What do you think Afro-American culture is? I will vote in favor of Native American traditional consciousness, a love of the creator, and purpose of caring for the land. There is talk of turning over the national parks to the care of Native Americans and I think this is an excellent idea. It will enable them to have their traditional life purpose and we all can benefit from their care of the land.

deleted and a correction was posted.

Unfortunately, I think that the (again, naturally selected for) "libido dominari" (or "will to power", if you prefer) which I think of as the root cause of the impetus to all types of "arkhe" (Ancient Greek "rule, authority, command, dominion"), goes much deeper and is much more profound and influential than the sex drive. — Michael Zwingli

I think the sex drive and urge to rule or "dominate" go together. However, we might consider, there are different reasons for wanting to have authority and power, so the human will, can play an equally strong role in our behaviors. Our will is shaped by our experiences, relationships, and social expectations. So how we think and behave is a combination of things, knowledge, emotions, hormones, and physic. If our size and a deep voice does not help us get our way, we need to figure out another way to get what we want. On the other hand, if everyone submits to us because of our size and a deep voice, we might gain the confidence to rule we might take charge because that seems to be what is expected of us. If a man cries, the response to him may be different than if a woman cries. But bottom line- if a male is ranging with testosterone, something is going to happen because he isn't going to be passive.

And, I would add, evolutionary adaptedness, which is perhaps the most important of all. Men, for instance, are simply not adapted for child-rearing, and I mean more than physically/anatomically, which is probably why most men are so uncomfortable with that role. — Michael Zwingli

I agree and disagree. It depends on the age of the child. Here is where we have made a huge mistake! The industrial revolution took men and women out of their homes, separating them from the children left at home.

The greatest success of our civilization was freeing the mothers to stay at home and be homemakers. That advanced our civilization. But the downside has been cutting men out of the children's lives. Men are as important to the development of children as mothers are. Until about age 3 the mother is the best person to care for a child, and then it is very important the father take an increasing role in preparing the child for life. Each parent has a different effect on the development of the individual personality and it is best for children if they have both parents working together to raise a child. Then grandparents play an important role and children who have grandparents in their lives are advantaged and statistically do better. By the way, next Sunday is Grandparents' Day.

And as for men feeling uncomfortable with a child, mothers do too, until they grow into the role. Female hormones help us a lot, especially if we breastfed the baby. And for hormonal reasons, we respond differently when a baby cries. But when the first baby is put in our arms and we are expected to do everything a mother does, a woman may wonder when the mother instinct is going to kick in and suddenly she knows how to be a mother. It does not work that way. Books and classes and calling another woman, are all part of becoming a mother. Here is where the socialization aspect comes in. As men and women, we try harder to do what we think society, or our peers, expects of us. But it is not all about socialization. Hormones play a very important part in how we react to children.

You could try making a thread about what's required for democracy, I think one can make an argument for culture being important but only way before the actual democracy has fallen. Most democracies don't even get off the ground, they start without the necessary legal institutions to defend them and fall into authoritarianism from the getgo. It's just impossible for civilians to investigate and redemy corruption, to
charge politicians with criminal activity, to prevent laws from being passed or repealed, at least as a long-term strategy.

In recent times, we've seen populations organise through social media to demand democracy, such as with the Arab Springs, but it did not result in any democracy, only chaos and anarchy after the authoritarians were deposed. The citizens can organise demonstrations and revolts, but they cannot manage a long-term democracy, that requires the necessary institutions and laws. — Judaka

You make an excellent point, most democracies including all the places the Allies have invaded, except Germany (formerly a Christian republic) and Japan, do not succeed and that is because the education that transmits a culture for democracy, must come first. When the Americans were Americanizing Japan, following WWII, Deming, an American took his democratic model of industry to Japan and taught the Japanism industrialist to use his model for industry. Had the US done the same in Afghanistan, the Taliban might have been kept out because the people would have experienced their own power, instead of leaving them to be as dependent as small children. But hell, not even in the US has replaced its autocratic industry with the democratic model. The US is very hypocritical when it claims to be spreading democracy. That just is not true!

How do you think a democracy happens without education and transmitting a culture for it?

I watched the link explaining the rise and fall of Islam and clearly when people start believing determinism and that they are God's/Allah's, favorite people, things turn sour. That has hurt Christian countries, the Islam empire, and the USSR communist. Insanity follows determinism and stops the healthy growth of an empire/nation. Especially when a leader uses religion for personal power and creating enemies that must be conquered.

Determinism- the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. — Oxford languages

You can not have a strong and healthy democracy with that belief.

I did not want to destroy the Bamiyan Buddha. In fact, some foreigners came to me and said they would like to conduct the repair work of the Bamiyan Buddha that had been slightly damaged due to rains. This shocked me. I thought, these callous people have no regard for thousands of living human beings — Mullah Omar

That is the same as Genghis Khan's reasoning and the lifestyles are similar. What is not understood is building trade and industry can result in the wealth to have schools, hospitals, and feed everyone.

That's a very interesting perspective and perhaps worth looking into. However, do Native Americans all have a unified settlement pattern, social stratification, economic and legal system, etc.?

I believe that most of the North American tribes used to be constantly at war with one another. And if we look at more advanced Native American systems like those of the Mayas and Aztecs, it does not look like they were the most peaceful people on the planet.

What you are saying seems to apply to some Native Americans only. And then there is the question of whether it can or should be implemented everywhere in western society.
— Apollodorus

Apollodorus, think about what you are saying very carefully. The USSR "liberated" women long before the US did. This is an economic thing that we have adopted. First, you tax people's income. Second, you promote the notion that all adults must be productive members of society and earn a living, and third, the state will raise the children. That is not the democracy we defended in two world wars. — Athena

I agree, it looks like I must think very carefully about what I say and maybe better say nothing at all lest I get mistaken for someone from Texas .... :grin:

But I agree that we have been betrayed and sold down the river time and time again by corporate interests and their political accomplices. "Democracy" used to have some meaning or at least people thought so. Unfortunately, it has become a bait to catch the ignorant, the gullible, and the unthinking, when in reality it is all about the military industrial complex, big bucks, and big tech.

And no, I don't think the state should raise all our children. What happened in the Communist Bloc was appalling. They had these state-run orphanages where no one cared, the children were totally neglected if not abused, and ended up damaged for life. Maybe in the West things would be run differently to communist states that were not accountable to anyone.

But I think the state should provide some form of financial assistance to its own citizens when it obviously has trillions to throw away. And the same applies to big corporations. They extract billions from society so they should give some of that back to the people for the people to use as they see fit.

Anyway, what is your vision for America and the western world? What kind of matriarchy or patriarchy would you like to have? Could you compile a short list of policies you would like to see implemented?

No, all native Americans did not have the same social organization, and especially important, they did not rear their children the same.

The Northwest Native Americans did war with each other and then they formed a federation and preached peace is the process of reasoning. They had a beneficial effect on the development of democracy in American. Our literate forefathers had classical/liberal education based on Greek and Roman, but they had no experience with democracy so their understanding of it was incomplete. The Greeks are a better example than the Romans because the Greeks had different city-states but when we read of Rome it appears to be a huge civilization under one power. In the new land were people who were living the separate city/state reality and came to forming a federation and a notion of reasoning ruling just as the Greeks did.

Man, I am out of time- I will have to get back to you. It would be great to have two or me. One to take care of mundane life and one to stay in the forum. We could come together over dinner and share our different experiences.

Matriarchy and patriarchy are social orders that meet different needs under different circumstances and they go with notions of the creator. Is the creator or patron deity a male or female? Is there peace or is life threatened by invaders and a scarcity of food? We might note the US became a military-industrial complex before women were liberated. That is a change in the social order, with social, economic, and political ramifications.

I do not have the feeling that the patriarchy of Christian nations was a good thing, nor do I think it has changed in a good way, now that females are to be as males. That is why I opened the discussion.

I love your argument and will check out the link. I think we need a different thread to discuss authoritarianism. We disagree on the subject because I think education is a big part of democracy. We can not defend our democracy if we do not know what we need to defend. Would the title "authoritarianism versus democracy" or "culture versus authority over the people"?

It is not exactly gender that should determine our roles, but the needs of the family and the community and things like democracy and liberty. Thank you so much for asking!

I would say because they are based off gender, and that is a poor metric by which to base societal structures upon. I don’t think one gender is better as leaders of society than another, the better structure will be determined by traits that do not rely on gender like education, integrity, fair and equal laws etc. I don’t think any of those traits rely on a specific answer.
Do you think one or the other (patriarchy or matriarchy) is better? I just din’t think I can agree. Male or female, politicians are all the same variety of lying, game playing scum we all hate.
Society is best run by a system where both genders get a seat at the table, where the “talent pool” of society running folks is at its widest. Why exclude someone based in gender? — DingoJones

Thank you. Our thinking is very different and I am curious about why that is so. You speak of a reality that is nothing like life was before the 19th century. Education before the 19th century would be liberal education and only a few men had a chance of being well educated, with a few exceptions. Some Protestant groups focused on the technological skill of reading so people could read the Bible for themselves but from there females were taught the domestic skills by their mothers, and males learned their father's trade or were sent to live with a man who would teach them a trade. However, the Quakers took a much stronger stand on empowering women than any other branches of Christianity and I think it was more influenced by the classics, playing a very strong role in forming the values of the US by participating in government at the Capital. The foundation of the culture was predominately Christian and the man was the head of the house, with God's authority that women did not have except for Quakers. That is patriarchy with Quakers and empowered women, playing a stronger role in shaping democracy than say the Mormons.

Throughout history, the division of gender roles was based on our different natures. Do you think nature made males and females the same?

When the giver of life was a goddess, women held the highest position and the society was organized by family order. Do you have any notion how this was different from patriarchal societies? Can you think of reasons for a matriarchy becoming a patriarchy? Do you understand I am not arguing one is better than the other but I am warning there are serious problems with insisting we all be like men and the homemaker is not an important social role?

When the state becomes responsible for childcare, increasingly the paid childcare provider will have to prove merit by showing a degree in childcare education, and the pay will go up. This is a huge improvement over leaving a 12-year-old responsible for children. But no amount of technological education, and pay, will make the caregiver equal to a mother or grandmother. Can you think of any reason why this might become a social nightmare along the line of The Brave New World?

Absolutely! thank you so much for that post. That is not the full extent of what a homemaker does because there are all the relationships to think about and one's position in the community, and what can be more important than raising the children well when there are children.

How much I wish I had someone to take care of everything when I thought it was my time to work outside of the home. I am quite sure my mother would have gotten into the movies as this was her goal when she moved me and my sister to Hollywood, California but child care plus having to support the family robbed her of that opportunity. A woman with children is not a liberated woman unless someone is will take on the family responsibilities.

Yes, singing is a good sign... — Michael Zwingli

But what songs should I be singing? You tease me. I am not sure of what you intend to communicate.

Oh please. Most of America's cultural features are not American, if you go that way. — Olivier5

Wow, why did you say that? The US adopted the communist income tax and is now destroying the family to have every adult in the workforce and is talk about the government's responsibility for raising our children. It adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education that shifts power and authority away from individuals to the government. It replaced liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose. It replaced Greek and Roman classical philosophers with German philosophers.

Why would you say what we have is not American? Do you mean this is not the democracy we once defended?

The answer of course is the most successful Islamic nation that is still among us, even if it doesn't have a Sultan as it's leader. The Ottomans, the Ottoman Empire and modern day Turkey. The guys who actually conquered the last bastion of the Roman empire. — ssu

Very interesting! I want more information. How does this tie into a change of attitude that began during 1950-1960? Eisenhower and the establishment of the Military-Industrial complex and using the Cia for the Iranian coup?

https://www.google.com/search?q=eisenhowerhower+Iranian+coup&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=eisenhowerhower+Iranian+coup&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i299l3.20524j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#:~:text=Eisenhower%20approves%20coup,Must%20include%3A%20hower — google

Are we talking about something that is equal to Bush's evil axis that gave the US government permission to do whatever it deemed necessary to get military control of the mid-east?

When we had to stop explaining our imperialism as defending democracy against communist we we needed a new enemy. A small band of renegades led by Bin Laden wasn't good enough, so we associated all of Islam with the terrorist threat we face and this new evil was expertly created by Bush, right? All the time hiding why countries we never heard about were suddenly in our daily news.

Most importantly, ISIS and The Taliban are militia war groups and terrorists, even if they weren't Islamists, who would want such leaders? Who would expect anything from their leadership? — Judaka

You seem very well informed and I would like to know how you became informed so I might follow that path?

I have not seen anything that would make me think the Taliban is sophisticated. All my information is about the militia war groups and I am comparing this to nazi Germany. While some great music and philosophy has come from Germany, that degree of sophistication is not reflected in the thugs that gave the nazi party control of Germany. Both look to me like male hormones out of control. The peak of uncontrolled patriarchy. Women may steal each other's children but they do not turn them into warriors and put them on the front line. What ISIS and the Taliban have done is not civilized, and it doesn't seem to matter if they worship the Christian God or Allah, these men, Roman, German, or Afghanistan tribes are a plague to civilization.

I think your question needs to be tweaked. Not who would want such leaders, but under what conditions do such leaders come to power? A hidden question, is the US experiencing conditions that could lead to that kind of power taking control?

Once upon a time societies were organized by family order.
— Athena

Yes, that is the nature of an hereditarily aristocratic society.

I will prime the thinking pump with a link to information about native Americans and matriarchy. With an understanding of native American matriarchy, we can then see how the Taliban is different.
— Athena

But if you use the Taliban as being representative of male organizational stategy, are you not skewing the comparison? After all, the fact of patriarchy is only one of the two major influences on that group, the other, of course, being (I would argue extreme) theocratic zealotry.

How are both patriarchy and matriarchy flawed? If you can answer that, it would be the discussion I was hoping to have.
1h
— Athena

I think the answer to that, is that we as a species have displayed the ability to move beyond the natural and into the ideal in a quest for justice and equity. Since we have demonstrated being able to concieve of such (admittedly abstract) things as equity, justice, and morality, as well as being capable of structuring society in pursuit of those ends, have we not assumed an ethical responsibility to renounce such preconcieved notions of "authority" and "rule" as are presented by both patriarchy and matriarchy? Is there not an "onus" upon us? — Michael Zwingli

You make my heart sing. :love: People in US political forums just do not understand what the discussion is about and I was so frustrated with them, I was ready to go blow my brains out. People in this forum are actually saying intelligent things and are moving the conversation forward.

Matriarchies are not the hierarchy of authority above the people that patriarchies are, and property descends through females, not males, giving them the power ownership. The focus of matriarchy is culture, not the western notion of god-given authority over others.

It is not my intention to say matriarchies are superior to patriarchies because I do not think matriarchies would have advanced technology. :flower: In a culturally-based society people will discover ways to survive and things like clay pots that carry water and they decorate them beautifully. That creativity is not exactly technology. Technology identifies why some dirt makes good pots and other dirt absolutely will not make a good pot. Technology answers the question "why". Mom may show you how to bake bread, but Dad is more likely to know why the bread rises or does not rise. That may not be the best example but there is an important difference between "how" and "why" and I think men are more apt to ponder "why" things are as they are. Of course, women can do that as well men can, but first, they need to be removed from their family responsibilities. Their domestic brain that operates on hormones, needs to be trained to think technologically.

This is not just a matter of how the brain is prepared, but it is also very visceral. I have never heard a man talk about how hard it is to go back to work when a child is born and of feeling pulled between the child and the job, and dealing with feelings of guilt. I think denying the hormonal difference between men and women is a mistake. Just as I think denying the hormonal difference of some gay people is a mistake and for darn sure, we know transgender people do hormonal therapy. When a man watches football his testosterone level increases but that does not happen when a baby cries. Women have a hormonal response to a baby crying that men do not have. I know, burn me at the cross because I am saying males and females are different and that difference includes how they organize as families or opposing football teams. However, I am not saying one is better than the other. It seems quite obvious to me, nature planned on us being different and working together.

Why are you saying the ideal means denying women the ability to stay home and care for the family?

If the mother is paid by the state to stay home and raise children, then why would the state need to pay a basic income to carers?

Either way, the state pays for the child being raised. Which sounds better than paying and arming the Taliban. — Apollodorus

Apollodorus, think about what you are saying very carefully. The USSR "liberated" women long before the US did. This is an economic thing that we have adopted. First, you tax people's income. Second, you promote the notion that all adults must be productive members of society and earn a living, and third, the state will raise the children. That is not the democracy we defended in two world wars.

Paying a mother is paying a carer.

Seems as you are having trouble following this. What it has to do with the Taliban is quite beyond my keen.

Again, your comments are frenetic. — Banno

Once upon a time societies were organized by family order. Admittedly there may be some problems with that, but it does not become the government's problem. Finally, a discussion worth having, huh? It might suck to be a homemaker but that does not have to be so and when the kids are in school the homemaker can work outside of the home. The homemaker does so much more than change diapers and feed children. A homemaker has perhaps the most important job because the health of the whole community really depends on her.

In a matriarchy both genders are subject to becoming narcissistic coroporate machines. Then, we end up raising a generation of psychopaths that keep shooting up all the public schools. Just spit balling. — Cheshire

Oh is that why our banking system and some industries have been run by psychopaths, a lack of a father in the home? I think you may have a point. Would you like to explain it? What is the problem with single mothers raising children without fathers?

Moreover, if we take state institutions like police, judiciary, civil service, and political leadership to be "oppressive" because they are mostly run by men, at what point can we say that they cease to be oppressive and become non-oppressive? — Apollodorus

Oh my goodness, you asked a very, very important question!

There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. Native Americans have a tradition of handling social problems without authority over the people and more in line with the correction of our correction system that is not just and is not correcting!

Correct. I can think of no explanation as to why western governments would pump trillions into Afghanistan and arm the Taliban instead of using the money to help their own citizens when in need. — Apollodorus

That is a different subject but it is related to this one. Perhaps we can move closer to the subject by asking how do men organize and how do women organize? I will prime the thinking pump with a link to information about native Americans and matriarchy. With an understanding of native American matriarchy, we can then see how the Taliban is different. The link will partially answer the question about the difference between male and female organizations.

We might what to consider, in these different societies is a noticeable difference in ideas about the creator/god? Can we be clear that Judaism, Christianity, Islam are basically the same father in heaven worshiping religion. The big difference between patriarchy and matriarchy is the decent of property and ownership is related to power, right?

American Indian Women - Teachinghistory.orghttps://teachinghistory.org › ask-a-historian
In many North American societies, clan membership and material goods descended through women. For example, the Five (later Six) Nations of the Iroquois ... — teaching history

I can be clearer that was muddled.
What I meant was the merits/demerits of a gender based society would match the merits/demerits of the genders themselves. I’m not making a commentary about what those gender merits/demerits are Im just pointing out the society would reflect them, whatever you think they might be.
The second point I intended to make was that gender is not a very good metric by which to appoint rulership or or who makes good leaders. I stand by what I said, that it is foolish to think a particular gender better equips one to lead or ideas by which to base society. Patriarchy and matriarchy are both flawed ways of structuring society. — DingoJones

How are both patriarchy and matriarchy flawed? If you can answer that, it would be the discussion I was hoping to have.

You mean Scylla and Charybdis? Not much of a choice there - do you want a female prison warden or a male prison warden? Either way, you're in prison. :joke: — TheMadFool

That question is not relevant to the importance of the homemaker.

The term "patriarchy" - with all the negative connotations - also occurs among left-wing and far-left groups where it tends to crop up in slogans like "smash patriarchy" that appear side-by-side with "smash capitalism", etc., at some rallies.

I think one problem with the "feminist" view of patriarchy as a system where women are subordinate to men, is that the reality is we all take orders from the police, courts, civil service, politicians, etc., and are subordinate to some authority or another.

In any case, you don't often see men in Western society with an army of women under their command, or going out of their way to "exploit" and "suppress" women.

And, of course, whilst in the West we are waging divisive culture, race, and gender wars, other truly repressive and violent regimes are on the march in Asia, Latin America, Africa, etc. — Apollodorus

We used to educate for independent thinking and for civic and industrial leadership. I have this crazy notion that democracy in American meant not relying on the government, you know as Tocqueville said in 1830 when wrote the book "Democracy in America". I think traditional family values are important to our liberty and that is why I started this thread. I don't think having to leave children in a daycare center and working like men to support the family is liberating women.

This is my understanding of an oversimplified example of what "patriarchy" means in feminism. Here's my translation in to T Clark-speak - Women are not responsible for the society in which they live. Or more strongly, men are to blame. My problem with such statements is not so much they're wrong, although they are, it's that they are deeply disrespectful to women. And men too, for that matter, but that's not the issue I'm trying to deal with. — T Clark

Hum another very interesting reply and also far from what I expected. You might notice how much the function of government has changed since women have filled the seats of government. I am absolutely blown away that we are now talking about how women can not work unless someone cares for their children so the government needs to provide child care. I never thought, in the US, we would say the government needs to assume that much responsibility for our children. For sure it is a change in what we think the government should do for us and it follows "liberating women" to work in the industries just like the communist did long before the US "liberated" women. I have a 1940 Oregon Family Law book and it says only when a woman has fulfilled her family responsibilities can she work outside of the home.

I imagine benefits and problems of a gender based social structure would match pretty closely to the benefits and problems of the genders themselves.
Of course a problem common to both a patriarchy and a matriarchy is that it ignores merit in favour of an accident of birth. Anyone who thinks gender is more telling of leadership or social order than individual merit is a fool imo. — DingoJones

Well, that is an interesting comment. Before you decide who is a fool you might want to have more information. But I am pondering what you said and wondering why you said it. It kind of reminds me of the movie Brave New World. The way technology has impacted our consciousness is fascinating, but that is a different discussion I would love to have.

↪Athena Sure. My point was that the US could dispense from looking for new enemies all the time. The books are now closed on Afghanistan, thanks to Biden. That was the longest war the US ever fought... and for what? — Olivier5

The US is unlikely to have a new enemy as long as fracking meets our oil needs. However, it could very well create new enemies. I so wish we would learn from Athens and Rome but that is another topic. I write to stir our conscience and raise our wisdom and I appreciate help in doing this.

But for the Taliban and ISIS what the US did in Afghanistan is like letting in the killer wasp that destroy all the bees needed for pollination. We screwed them over so badly because we did not have a good understanding of human reality. We were not there for any of the good reasons. We were there to maintain control of oil until fracking gave us independence from foreign oil. The idea of nation-building came after we were there and it was poorly thought out.

The nation-building may have succeeded had we used Islam for the foundation of that nation.

Hence policy is made by what the voter wants in a democracy. Or otherwise you would have to have politicians with real leadership skills to change and mold the views of the voter, to make him or her to understand that realpolitik is the way to go. For example to us Finns this is easy to understand as we know that we are the quite dispensable country, so for us foreign policy is not about right or wrong, but basically survival. — ssu

I love your statement. :heart: When in the 21 century has the US fought a war for survival? Our constitution tried to limit our wars to our defense and survival but that has not been the reason for the wars of the US since Eisenhower established the Military-Industrial Complex. The US was not in Afghanistan because God willed us to be there. The US was not in Afghanistan because it was a nation that threatened our nation. The US was not in Afghanistan to spread democracy. We do have politicians with real leadership skills. We are fed lies and still believe them.

I love Biden's move of delaying our exit until the anniversary of 9/11 so he could counteract the bad news that he knew would result from the withdrawal, and use television to hammer away at remembering 9/11 desperately hoping to rekindle the fear and lies that made us willing to support a war that never should have happened.

:rage: who here does not believe the enemy is Muslims? Our belief that the enemy is Muslims is US/ Christian propaganda. The enemy that gets us into war is the Military-Industrial Complex, the oil industry and banking, and Christians believing they are doing the will of God when the US commits acts of war.

As for enemies... The Americans always look for some enemy or another. I guess they're convenient to justify enormous military spending, huh? — Olivier5

Whoo, whoo, the US was known for its resistance to entering wars and coming up with the idea of a United Nations, to resolve conflicts with reason, a hallmark of democracy. It also has a history of using the military to defend its economic interest. Seriously, we need to understand the difference and why we were in Afghanistan in the first place and especially why we turned on Saddam and invaded Iraq. We made enemies and need to take responsibility for that, but as long as we believe the war is Christians against Muslims, we will not be living with the truth.

↪Apollodorus Nobody said Pakistanis were Arab. I just said that there was once a brilliant Arab civilization. I don't think this is in dispute by any serious historian. — Olivier5

Yes, and that civilization surpassed Christian Europe. My above post was too long so quickly I say in this short post, the enemy is not Islam. The enemy is backward people who think they are doing the will of God, not so different from some Christians. War is good for religion and religion is good for war.

As someone noted already, this depends on how you define success. If their goal is to maintain age-old traditions unaffected by foreign influences, they might do well. — Olivier5

That is not exactly what they want. The first thing they accomplished is convincing Turkey to operate the airport. The airport is essential to receive foreign aid and International organizations are scrambling to get those who stayed in Afghanistan and those who have fled, food. The only way to feed the large populations today is with modern technology and never in history have people followed someone when they are starving. No one who has had modern plumbing and understands the control of disease is going to settle for living as people did before indoor plumbing. Bottom line, success means living in the 21 century also throughout the koran there are sentences that support learning such as "God will exalt those of you who believe and those who have knowledge to high degrees". This has a large part to play in the earlier success of Islam.

Islam comes out of an existing civilization and Mohammad was a trader. Succuss in trading and economics is a hallmark of the historical Islam, but not the Taliban who come from the backwoods and have been nomadic. The Sumerian story of Ishmael tells of the difference between those who live in the city and those who do not. We might want to apply that story to what is happening in Afghanistan. Even though the invaders are Muslim, they are not civilized Muslims and I think the International effort to change that region failed because it did not recognize the important difference between the nomads and city people.

History of Islam - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › History_of_Islam
Baghdad was home to Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Zoroastrians, in addition to the growing Muslim population. Like his father, Al-Hadi was open to his people ...
‎Early sources and historiography · ‎Early period · ‎Islamic Golden Age · ‎Islam in Africa

I think it is a mistake to think it is Islam that defines our enemy because the enemy is those nomadic hicks who have lived for war all this time. Another serious problem is they turned male children into warriors and they do not respect women and will be a social problem for a long time. But perhaps we should keep in mind so did the Germans resort to recruiting child soldiers.

slam was successful in the past because it celebrated diversity and pluralism. It practiced religious tolerance. The fundamentalist groups you are talking about are at war with modernism and pluralism and are essentially a savage pietistic reform movement. People keep saying Islam needs a reformation. The problem is Islamic State may be what a reformation in Islam looks like. Stephen Schwartz wrote an interesting book on the nature of Islam's struggle with fundamentalism called the Two Faces of Islam back in 2002. Irshad Manji ( a gay, Canadian Islamic woman) wrote an equally interesting book on the nature of contemporary Islamic intolerance called The Trouble with Islam. It's hard to imagine a successful state emerging from a foundation of captious hatred, but anything is possible. — Tom Storm

That appears to be a well-informed answer. I am impressed. I am also uneasy because the US seems to be experiencing the same intolerance.

War is good for religion and religion is good for war.

It did not happen out of the blue though. It was all borrowed from the Greeks, Persians, and others. And there was a gradual transition (and learning) phase.

When Muslim Arabs conquered Christian countries like Syria, Egypt, etc., that had been part of the Byzantine Empire, they took over the entire administrative apparatus sometimes complete with Christian officials.

The same applies to architects, scientists, philosophers, artists, military leaders, etc. They did not disappear, they simply adopted Arab names and language and carried on as normal until they were gradually replaced with Muslims. — Apollodorus

Absolutely, what they developed did not come out of the blue, and that is why I do not expect Afghanistan Muslims to do well. I think you hit upon something. Back in the day, they were looking forward and were willing to adopt what they could learn from others. But I think the Taliban and ISIS are looking backwards, and therefore it will not succeed. This time the Taliban pushed away the people who could have helped them move forward.

I think some of them are capable of being good leaders, but their followers value violence and will not become "weak city people". It is like being a gang leader. I am thinking of Weber here and the different kinds of leadership. A gang leader can not betray the gang by not being one of them. They invaded with brutal men who do not know it is not okay to rape and brutalize females and so they had to tell the women what they must do for their own safety. I don't think this will be an easy transition to acting like civilized people.

I think it is exactly because of this brutal male instinct that the Koran speaks of protecting women and treating them well. Unfortunately, it takes more than a holy book to civilize people.

"New Human Rights Watch research shows that the Taliban have been training and deploying children for various military operations including the production and planting of improvised explosive devices (IED). In Kunduz province, the Taliban have increasingly used madrasas, or Islamic religious schools, to provide military training to children between the ages of 13 and 17, many of whom have been deployed in combat." This is a problem for a civilization with females. Age matters and the age of these fighters is not apt to lead to civilized behavior.

From a historical perspective, the Taliban and ISIS are comparable to the "primitive" tribal barbarians, who sacked Rome, bringing an end to a world-wide military empire, but releasing & spreading the energy of a new world-dominating Imperial religion. At the time (circa 410 to 455 AD) the Vandals (etc) were disorganized & uncivilized, but fierce & hungry & bloodthirsty.

Centuries later, many of us on this presumably modern & civilized forum are descendants of those uncouth barbarians, So, there is room for hope that Afghanistan can recover from decades of being squeezed between the rock of dug-in defensive intolerant Islamic tradition, and the driving force of forward-leaning & aggressive Western Capitalism. Yet, it remains to be seen, if this sacking of a remote outpost of capitalist imperialism, will be followed by an adaptation of money-driven Western notions of civilization, or by a resurgence of the Islamic brand of sword-won colonialism. Or, perhaps to a re-flowering of the Golden Age of Islamic philosophy. :smile: — Gnomon

I totally love a historical perspective. If Islam regains its glory, I do think that will happen in Afghanistan because they are not coming from a civilization. Nomadic people do not develope civilizations. It is city living that develops civilization but as you said, those civilizations can fall.

So a (small) contribution provoking more clarity of purposes, no? — 180 Proof

No, the only thing disrespectfulness will get is negative.

↪Bitter Crank

I am arguing to include employers as agents who can and do enforce strict obedience to their authority. In a different thread I'd argue that workers need more power to resist employers.

That’s very true, though I think it is much easier to change employers than it is to change state authority. — NOS4A2

Yes, the US modeled its industry after Britain's autocratic order and it follows that the US is more autocratic than democratic.

There are two ways to have social order, culture, or authority over the people. In 1958 the US stopped transmitting its culture and that leaves only authority over the people for social control.

Good point but I'm only interested in the Philosophical aspect of Buddhism not the religious part. And the philosophy in my opinion is neither chauvinistic to my knowledge and is full of practical wisdom. What do you mean it falls way short of the Greek effort to know truth with its science and political leaning. What science are you referring to. Greek and Roman Stoic philosophy has many similarities with Buddhist philosophy. They may have influenced each other as a result of Alexander the greats conquering of the Middle East and the fusion of Greek and Eastern culture in the Hellenistic period
37 minutes ago — Ross Campbell

I don't think Buddhism has one official book like the Christian Bible. It is not an organized religion like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but is like philosophy where anyone can make an argument for this or that, and if is liked, it gets passed on. Buddhism is not "God's truth" or "God's commandments".

Greek logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. That means asking the question "How do things work?" What is the "cause and the effect"? It is concerned with what we now call science and religion is not. Philosophy can help us make good moral judgments but does not help us understand our planet and how to manifest all the different parts of a city or protect endangered species.

A sophist's notion of 'wisdom' – a syllabus of self-help nostroms. — 180 Proof

How do you think that put-down contributes to the thread?