The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards — Gnostic Christian Bishop

:lol: You and I are having a very different conversation than everyone else. I prefer the conversation we are having.

Wanting knowledge is not wanting to be a god, but wanting to stay alive and to keep the people we care about alive. It is ridiculous to argue religion as though that was not true from our beginning. We did not begin in Paradise, but as animals trying to stay alive. Please, please can have a discussion that is based on reality?

So we have agreement that a moral is a matter of cause and effect? If it is good no harm is done. It is evil/bad, if harm is done. Now what we have to do is determine if harm is done or not. That is self-evident, isn't it? I mean deciding if it causes harm or does not cause harm depends on what is so, not on believing a myth.

Democracy is about arguing until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. Even after we have a consensus someone can have a new idea that proves we were wrong, and then we need to adjust to the new truth. This is what makes democracy radically different from religion. Like with religion, everyone can know without a doubt that the earth is round and not at all the center of the universe, and still argue the false stories are God's truth. That is a bit crazy, isn't it? I think I am getting a headache:lol:

We do have some democratic industry and Germany has more democratic industry than the US. While Japan has used Deming's model for industry since WWII and it has kicked our asses in competition for world markets. So it behooves us to learn of the Deming model and rethink our power as citizens in the US.

Apparently you never read the Koran and the Haddiths. Try that before posting more false statements. — Nobeernolife

Starting with the God of Abraham all the notions of God are false, so my dear, there is no god who hates people, there are only people who believe there is a god and that their holy book is the truth, and the other holy books are not true. Or people who share the same holy book and disagree with the other person's interpretation of the book. I do not have much patience for this.

That was an interesting read that held my attention. However, when I asked my question, I was not thinking of comparing human stories of the gods. My thinking was very simple. I don't think anyone today believes Zeus was a real god. Why should I believe the God of Abraham is a real God?

Or to make this a lot of fun, why would a human want to be a god?

At the end of day, there is only you or I to say what is important.
And we will do that or not. — Valentinus

What is important or what is true? In an extremely short time, say between Bacon and the present, we have we overcome the evils that took our children and kept our live expectancy down to less than 45 years and kept our economies in extreme poverty and ignorance. This awesome achievement was not the result of sacrificing animals, or praying to a god, or being faithful to a god. The question of this thread is our desire for knowledge good or sinful? What do you think, would you rather return to the Dark Ages when the only things to learn were a vocation and a religion? We are far more civil with our full bellies and securities than we were a few hundred years ago.

There is so much more than you and I and I think it is a mistake to stop there. This world pandemic could radically change our lives and bring in universal medicine and a greater consciousness and caring for everyone. Or, given today's March 21, 2020 Oregon Boarcasting shows about air force heroes, I suspect the US is preparing for a war and that could change our country more than any previous war. I think we better look for what is true, and take action, not what is important.

Jesus told the Pharicees they had the wrong concept of who God is. Do you understand what I am getting at. Typed from my phonE — christian2017

How is such a god who can be known different from Zeus?

Apparently you never read the Koran and the Haddiths. Try that before posting more false statements. — Nobeernolife

Same God for Jews, Christians and Muslims. It is not logical to believe one of these groups has the true god and the others do not because they do not. Only culturally are they different.

And what is your defense for being such an unpleasant person? Do you believe Jesus would speak as you do?

The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I must not have adequately explained why Christianity works. Christianity works and so do lucky rabbit's feet. I am speaking of the psychology of positive thinking and the psychology of moral stories no matter where the moral story comes from, folk tales or a holy book. It is not some mystical force involving a God that makes a difference, but believing in such a power can make a big difference. So can having a lucky rabbit's foot make a big difference. Believing the dead saints can protect you, works. So when Christians are absolutely sure from experience that prays, charms, sacrificing animals, works, yes, it works.

Speaking of religion and law, our Christian based correction system is a horror! It most certainly is not based on the science of human behavior and change. And neither is any decision regarding social problems based on the science when Christians are the majority. So the conservatives are not going to give us justice based on science and reasoning. Christian conservatives see fault in Muslim laws and Muslims find fault in Christian laws, and both of them are stuck in the past with a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God. Jesus is seen as a lucky rabbit foot, but not someone we should follow.
Jesus sure as blazes did not say go to college and have a career that will get you a lot of money and ignore the less fortunate because they get what they deserve.

Allah hates the followers of Yahweh. If Allah was Yaweh, that would mean he hates his own followers. Clearer now? — Nobeernolife

There is no God who hates people and Muslims took in Jewish refugees when Christians were prosecuting them. Now Zionism is a different thing. That has made enemies. I saw pictures of how badly Palestinians were treated by Israelis and I believe the bad guy in that region is the Zionist. For sure Israel is in violation of United Nations mandates. Before the Zionist Jews and Muslims were living in peace with each other.

The US is about to overtake Italy in new cases. Hunker down and don't take any chances. :pray: — Baden

Nice advice but many people are on the front line of this war, and they can not put themselves first. They are risking their lives for everyone they care for. I hope we become very aware of that and find some way to acknowledge them.

he Trump crisis playbook to date has involved bullying both political allies, to keep them in line, and potential opponents, to prevent them from talking. It has involved lying. It has involved the deflection of attention onto other matters. It has involved attacking the attackers, spinning conspiracy theories about and spawning investigations of the investigators. — Relativist

Trump and this pandemic are a lesson in tyranny. Obama put in place departments to handle a pandemic when Eboli was threatening everyone. Trump undid most of what Obama put in place. Trump has also removed everyone from office who did not kiss his ass, and put in their place people willing to kiss his ass if they have the merit to do the job or not. Now even if one of them has good judgment, they are all afraid to say anything to him that he might not like. The problem was the same for China when Chairman Mao was in power and people starved to death because of his ignorance and bad rule.

We have forgotten what science has to do with democracy, good moral judgment, and rule by reason. Christians tend to hold a different world view- dependent not on science and many minds working on resolving problems, but on pleasing God and this God, with the prayers of the people, making it possible for the ruler to work miracles. This has been so since the beginning of civilizations. Faith in the pharaoh, the king, the president, or whatever title you want to give the promised leader of the people. Hopefully, this unfortunate reality will be changed by what we are experiencing today.

Please, I know how bad an economic crash can be on the poor because I lived through very hard times that lasted many years, and when my children came of age we could not assimilate the young into jobs fast enough. I was risking my life donating plasma when I my weight was dangerously low, and hitchhiking to work when my car broke down. Economic crashes destroy people mentally, physically and spiritually. Economic crashes destroy people's chances for careers, and poverty in hard times is intense and not equal to poverty in normal times and Reagon slashed domestic budgets when people seriously needed help. I do not want to think about it.

If there is anything I can do I will, but my family is in danger and I am old and there are children involved. My daughter is a drug and alcohol rehab worker working with an at-risk population. My granddaughter with two children can not see her children because she works with the homeless and has been exposed. She has taken steps to give authority to a friend who cares for her children now and to have custody of them if she dies. We know hard times and suffering. I am working hard to keep my spirits up. There are no fathers to help with the children. Just the male friend who is being a superhero with his low income and very small apartment. The children like him very much, so we may get through okay, but I am scared. Not for my life but the people in my family and our future.

I was just doing cultural psychology (like Nietzsche or Freud). We can look at goodness as something reached for, something I want, or my society collectively wants. That implies that I can look at a society, discern what they hold to be good, and discover what they think they're missing: what they would have to have to become perfect, healed, satisfied, and complete.

If the Greeks held freedom as a high good, then why? What was threatening their freedom such that they needed to reach for it: to pursue it and protect it? Was it an external threat? Or was it internal? Was it internal, but seen as external?

That's the kind of question I take into studying history. It's fun. — frank

I love your questions. Should we address them here or in another thread?

I think I have already said the philosophers of Athens asked, how do the immortals resolve their differences? The answer was, they argue until they have a consensus on the best reasoning. When this reasoning is applied to government it is democracy.

I don't like the word freedom because that implies a lack of limits and that leads to big trouble! I prefer the words "liberty" and "justice" because they imply knowledge of desirable limits and avoiding trouble. Democracy needs to be a self-correcting system, and that is not what religion is.

Indeed, but look at what we have instead.

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2 — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't dare spend too much time on youtube because if I use my information bites too fast I don't have internet for the rest of the month and right now I can not access any community computers.

However, I watched the first minute and will say we all have a lot to learn about economics. Even economic professors who teach a completely abstract concept of economies with zero understanding of what natural resources have to do with economics.

If we used the democratic model for industry all employees of an industry might care a lot about the resources their industry uses and where they come from because they share responsibility for the industry and caring for those resources politically could be very important.

The democratic model of industry distributes the income along the lines of the ideal in the youtube graph. It does not have outrageously paid CEO's.

And something we might consider is the importance of industry to our communities. When a community has strong industries, its income supports everyone in the community in the form of wages that in turn become property payments, and money for utilities, and services, retail businesses and all public needs. Texas can be so powerful because of oil revenue, paying for public services and education. Oregon's public needs were fund by timber revenues but has shifted to relying on tax money from citizens.

In general, I don't think we are thinking things through very well. That can bring even Rome down.

I am pretty ignorant of the Greek conflict with Persians. I only know the Greek point of view and a Persian informed me that I am not well informed. I am a little reluctant to talk about something I know almost nothing about. I don't know if we can the Persian point of view in the west? However, if you or anyone else wants to explore the question, I will pull out a book and see what I can learn.

What we'll learn is finally is to work from home and have net conferences. Talk about a truly collective learning experience.

Just think how many elementary and lower secondary school teachers everywhere have suddenly had to start using the internet to get to their pupils. For higher level education it isn't a great change, for lower levels it is. I have two children with one being a first grader and another a 6th grader and both are now living this eternal Sunday. Both of their class teachers were struggling to get the school work into net, but managed in couple of days to make it work. The frantic improvisation and their joy when getting their pupils online and working makes me smile. Yep, obviously no plans were made for this kind of event by the education system here, hence multitude of approaches by individual schools (which may be actually a good thing). Also, in country where home schooling is very rare, now something new.

The corona-virus is likely the best thing every to happen to the internet companies and service providers. It's so good for them that likely someone will come up with a conspiracy theory that Microsoft and Google were behind the outbreak in China. After all, even after some time has gone, the officials will still say "Use precaution" and "stay at home if you can". So how about that work that you can do from home? Any tin foil hats going with that one? — ssu

I would love to agree with you, but I have some concerns.

On-line school is not working at all for my family. Not all families value education. Not all families understand the importance of self-discipline and setting goals. Plenty of people are totally reactionary and everything revolves around their feelings. These folks can not be the parents children need in today's world. Our children need to be schools where there is a chance of a teacher and peers making a difference. Learning is very much about relationships, not just available facts presented in the right order. To clarify, I am concerned children will be doing as they please at the moment and that will not be studying, and their parents will not be able to get them to study. May parents don't even understand why all that school is necessary any way.

Working at home bites if the children are there. And again working is very much about relationships. I am afraid our technological society lacks awareness of how important our relationships are to being human and everything we do.

But given that we all live in oligarchies and do not have any working democracies in the world that I know of, does it matter what we think of democracy other than the facts that there are none? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes, it does matter. Democracy is a way of life and government is only one aspect of that way of life. If we handle things democratically on the job and at home with our families, and in our communities, really depends on our understanding of democracy as a way of life.

I want everyone to think about Deming's democratic model for industry because autocratic industry has lead to autocratic families and that has made life pretty bad for many people. In the past, life was too hard for divorced women so few of them divorced. Today, women have a chance of supporting themselves and their children, so they dare to leave their husbands, but we should not exactly blame the husbands who had to tolerate being treated badly on the job. If we used the democratic model than workers would learn how to be better people and they would bring this home to their families and that would lead to stronger families and fewer social problems.

I said we have a moral problem and you said..

Individually, I disagree.

We have an ethical problem. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We have a moral problem because we do not share agreement on the meaning of moral and this goes with our failure to understand democracy. A moral is a matter of cause and effect. We read moral stories to children, such as "The Little Red Hen" and at the end of the story, we asked what is the moral of that story. The answer always is a cause and effect. No one helped the Little Red Hen make the bread so she didn't share it. "The Engine that Could" made it over the hill because he didn't give up.
What makes Christianity work for millions of people is moral stories bring out the best in us. They help us understand a good way to respond to problems, and when this thinking becomes a habit more things seem to well for us. A Christian thanks God for the blessing. A secular person will realize the cause and effect.

That morality is essential on a national level. Democracy is about all of us working together for a better life that we all share. Without an understanding of democracy and morality, we don't know what we are doing and leave the decisions up to a leader. While good leadership and following a good leader are necessary in a democracy we retain responsibility and we are not like obedient children. The Bible without education for democracy tends to making adults like obedient children, and when these children are organized by Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens, the result is fascism. Who holds responsibility for national morality? I am kind of excited by the pandemic. We might learn to work together and make more moral decisions. Ignoring the health of others can come back and bite you. That is how morals work.

I have to add, being moral is not about pleasing a god and your own place in heaven. Being moral is about the whole nation and our children's future.

Banks in Ireland have agreed to give a three month mortgage holiday and evictions for non-payment of rent have been banned. Do that, U.S. — Baden

We should have done that during the housing crisis when bad banking regulations made victims of hard-working citizens. :rage:

I have hope that we will come out of this pandemic a better nation. We might be interring a new age that will better than our past.

Genesis is saying that defiance of the will of God was the original sin. It's granting that there is free will, but the highest good is to turn away from it. Eve's side story is a condemnation of curiosity.

So the story is an ultra-conservative warning against freedom and curiosity. If you consider the conditions of the early Iron Age in which it formed, it makes sense. — frank

That is an excellent post and triggers my memory of another story.

The Greek version makes more sense. Prometheus went against Zeus' will and gave man the technology of fire. Zeus was afraid once man had the technology of fire, he would learn all other technologies and rivel the gods. He couldn't return man to ignorance but he slowed them down. He created the first woman, Pandora, and gave her to the first man. Then he gave them a wedding gift. Prometheus warned the first man to not open the gift and the man told his wife not to open it, but she was curious and when she opened the gift, out flew all the miseries that slow down our progress, like the pandemic we have today.

For sure that is the story that is the true story because today we are technologically smart but lack the wisdom to use this technology without making things worse and possibly destroy life on this planet.

I've heard that some scholars interpret the knowledge in the story to mean "knowledge of everything". How is knowledge of everything "subject" to the distinction between good and evil, on your account? This sounds interesting. — Cabbage Farmer

Wikipedia explains that and the different perspectives, such as Augustine's explanation and the equivalent concept of good and evil being two sides of the same coin, in other ancient civilizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil

The whole debate annoys me because if God wanted us to remain ignorant He could have designed our brains to be no different than the rest of the animals. God could have designed our brains to make it impossible for us to know things He doesn't want us to know and make it impossible for us to think about them. God could have designed us to mate for life like many birds have life long mates and that would save a lot of marriages. :lol:

Does a chimp know the difference between good and evil? Do humans behave like chimps? Do chimps think like humans? We are as God made us and we were not made of mud. :lol:

You put me in a difficult position. That is something my Muslim friends never did. I never felt I had to defend myself from their personal attacks. And the way you addressed Frank is shocking. If there is anything nice about you, it is not showing.

OK, I take your word for it.
However, as I said, this was a limited period in history, and it is finished.
But the figures pale in comparison to the Jihad, and the Jihad continues today.
So again, where do you get off comparing the two? — Nobeernolife

About comparing the God of Abraham religions- they all share the same God, and the same prophets up to Jesus. Jesus is part of the Islamic story but he is not deified. The basic religion is the same, only the cultures are different. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism and Islam is Arab.

It is hard for me to understand the Iranian interest in Islam considering the Prussians hated Arabs, and Prussian Zoroastrianism is mixed with Christianity as much as Hellenism. The Zoroastrian ruler of Prussia freed the Jews in Babylon and order that Prussia give them the money to rebuild their temple. I do not understand why they became Muslims? But I do know Christianity wiped out all the indigenous in their path and that originally it was Jews and only the Jews who were God's favorite people. I think if they had God's truth, it is wrong for Christians and Muslims to change the story and claim to be God's new favorite people.

The Christian Right totally supports the Military-Industrial Complex of the US so I don't see where they are different from Muslims in that way. And I know Muslims who more gentle and humble and opposed to arguments than most Christians. I think if we look at the whole of humanity humans are more alike than different.

Well, thank you for setting things straight. I am not that interested in the popes, so I will bow out. But when it comes to being our own god, I don't think that is what a person wants. That is a lot of responsibility and I think we avoid responsibility when we can. :lol:

This is my last day of work until life returns to normal. The measures taken to prevent the spread of coronavirus have made it impossible for me to visit my elderly clients and take them places. Two are in a building for older people and only residents can enter. All their activities have been canceled. They are pretty restricted to living alone in their very small apartments. I think this is a huge mistake! And I am wondering what in blazes I will do with all the time I have I will have?

Thank goodness for the internet and this forum, and the gardening I can do. A good side is there is much less traffic and I can enjoy driving again. :grin: I don't worry about walking through stores because so few people are in them. It is almost like I have the whole world to myself. :lol:

You wrote: "If you know of the first few popes, you will know how decadent and immoral those popes were. They make Rasputin look like a saint."

So I gave you a list of the FIRST 12 POPES (more than just the first few)...and asked you what made them decadent and immoral.

Now you are accusing them of atrocities that occurred CENTURIES AFTER THEY WERE DEAD.

Not a single person on that list (the first 12 popes) had ANYTHING to do with witch burning or inquisitions.

Man up!

Simply acknowledge that you were talking out of your ass when you made that accusation.

Or...continue the bullshit.

It's kinda cute. — Frank Apisa

You might want to read the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins. The history of Christianity is full of conflicts and power plays, not so different from Republican presidents wiping out all the achievements of Democrat presidents one pope would wipe out the work of the previous pope. What happened was not at all better than the witch hunts and the witch hunts are the direct result of ignorance and that ignorance was the result of destroying the pagan temples that were places of learning and transmitting the knowledge that gave us modernity when it was rediscovered during the renascence.

It amazes me that Christians appear to know nothing of religious history but have a complete fantasy of their religion.

You are the guy who made the assertion about the first few popes.

I furnished you the names of the first 12 popes.

Now you are asking me to do the job of meeting YOUR burden of proof?

You are new to this, aren't you? — Frank Apisa

What is the point of that argument? :lol: I think you two got sidetracked by an argument that doesn't really matter.

What might matter is the evolution of our consciousness and how concepts came to be and moved from one area to another and blended and diverged. All religions are built on past religions and calling one set of concepts "myths" and another "religion" creates a delusion that we need to destroy.

You and I have very different points of view. Let us celebrate the gods and goddesses who greatly increased our knowledge with the different points of view and arguing.

On one thing we agree. Reason is better than religion. If I may, I want to talk about how we are taught to think. That is NOT what we are taught to think, but how. I refer again to fast and slow thinking, with fast thinking being reactionary and not exactly thinking. People who focus their lives on religion, tend to be reactionary thinkers. Everything is filtered through their belief system and what is not agreeable to their belief system is rejected without thought. That is the reaction.

I wish I could remember the exact page in my very old logic book from a different time when we were not so sure of themselves, so I could quote it. It stresses we should never be too sure ourselves because our knowledge is very limited. I would say that is especially so when we are focused on a religion rather than a philosophical "I don't know" and have the curiosity of child eager to discover something new. That is so different from "I don't question what I know because I know God's truth and if you don't agree with me you are wrong." Education for democracy has promotedfast thinking and discouraged slow thinking. My old grade school textbooks, warn against such closed thinking, again and again.

When I was young, the idea of being humble seemed a terrible thing but now I get it. Being a "know it all" is now my idea of terrible. :grin: If we see what is happening as in part worshiping youth and destroying respect of our elders, and education that leads to "this is right or it is wrong" thinking we might see a more militant approach to life then if we are not so sure of ourselves, and it is my life experience that "the more we know, the more we know what we do not know". We have specialized and narrowed our thinking far too much to have good judgment and we don't listen to our elders who know better.

Morale is, that high spirited feeling we get when we believe we are doing the right thing. Religion gives people that, and being pious gives people a sense of self-esteem. We are viewing secularism as lacking morality and this is a failure to understand democracy through the classics. We have a morale problem because we have a moral problem and we have a moral problem because we have an education problem!

You do know that secular law would say that Adam did not pass the mens rea test and was not guilty of anything because he had no evil intent or evil mind.

Every court on earth would say that Yahweh did a poor judgement and Adam was innocent.

Add in that you sing that Adam's sim was a happy fault and necessary to god's paln and your view falls apart.

If you were Adam, would you further Yahweh's plan and sin, or would you derail Yahweh's great plan and not sin?

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Wow, I like your argument! :clap: The God of Abraham is not a good god, and we have lived with Him and done terrible things and think this is our nature. So many have assumed the truth of the Bible for so long, that they don't question the existence of such an unjust God, nor the rightness of their own bad behavior and the harm passed on generation after generation. Our child-rearing has been damaging and our justice system is not justice. And oh do these people love to point their fingers at others and say how bad they are.

There were a number of testimonies that got labelled as "Gnostic" by the "Church Fathers."
The orthodoxy that shut out all but one view was not concerned by the differences it dispensed with.
That suggests the matter of forming the authorized view was only concerned with putting down anything that differed from it in any way.
That explanation does not require pitting one narrative against another. The demand to have only one story wiped out the other ones as part of enabling the growth of power in a secular world. — Valentinus

What is obvious to me is the power of having special knowledge. This power is even greater if it is believed to be sacred knowledge. It becomes even greater when there is only one god, only one truth. Democracy is an imitation of the gods who argued with each other until they had a consensus on the best reasoning. None of those gods had absolute power and each one had his/her point of view.

I like men and I have no desire to rule, but I do want to be heard and respected. To me, a man and a woman are like a right hand and left hand. One has to dominate but if they don't work together and can not coordinate there is a serious problem. :lol:

Now what I said can be a little tricky when men have to be macho and if a man is insecure and feels like he must prove himself and be in control then, of course, there will be problems. I think Greek and Roman men had a problem and that the Etruscans may have gotten things right. Accepting the balance of yin and yang may not lead to the power and glory of Rome, but could perhaps lead to a successful civilization, as long it doesn't have a neighbor like Rome or invading nomadic people.

Perhaps this could be brought back on topic? What would be the characteristics of an ideal ideology?

When life is good, and a man and woman respect each other and work together, no one needs to be a god. :wink:
.

There is another thread along the same line as this one, but different folks are in this one so will bring up the philosophy problem here too.

The democracy the US had depended on literacy in Greek and Roman Classics. The US transmitted a culture for liberty and democracy with an education based on the classics. However, interest in the Military-Industrial Complex and the having the strength of our enemy, lead to replacing the Greek and Roman Classics with German philosophers, Starting with the build-up to the first world war, it was Hegel and Nietzsche who grab the consciousness of Germany. It might behoove us to pay attention to the philosophical differences between the classics and German philosophy and pay attention to how the US has blended religion with government and thrills at believing the Power and Glory of God is the Power and Glory of the US.

Oh dear, I am not in favor of women ruling! I am thinking of all those women who worship Trump! Talk about wanting a sugar daddy, that is exactly what these women want! I have a Christian friend who almost swoons when she speaks of what a good Father to our county Trump is.

How about the Disney movie Lion King that associates lions with the ruling class and hyenas with the mass that must be kept under control? There is no way Ben Franklin and Jefferson would be taking their family to that movie and walking out talking about its great values!

You have missed something extremely important and have no reason to be aware of what happened because you live in a different country. However, we should be aware that the US had a liberal education based on Greek and Roman classics, and with the 1958 National Education Act came to a shift away from the classics, favoring German philosophy, especially Hegel and Nietzsche. My post are too long and don't get read, so I will stop here and hope someone picks up the ball and runs with it.
I will be hugely disappointed if people in a philosophy forum do not respond.

It is urgent that we understand why Christians have again formed into a life-threatening fascist state. Nations from time to time need psychoanalysis just as humans do because stuff gets stuck in their subconscious and takes over without awareness of what is driving the train of thought and action. Surely most Christians today would not agree with Hegel about the state, while at the same time they are acting as though they completely agree with him. That is, like the Germans, they are not drawing a line between religion and government but as Hegel has argued believe their nation and the power and glory of God are one and the same thing. It is the subconscious driving the train of thought and action, we need to bring this is to conscious awareness. Some non-Christians might be surprised that they too are infected by this thought virus.

For Hegel, the State is the highest embodiment of the Divine Idea on earth and the chief means used by the Absolute in manifesting itself as it unfolds towards its perfect fulfillment. Hegel argued that the State is the highest form of social existence and the end product of the development of mankind, from family to civil society to lower forms of political groupings.

The State is a superorganic whole made up of individuals grouped into local communities, voluntary associations, etc. These parts have no meaning except in relation to the State, which is an end in itself. The State can demand that its parts be sacrificed to its interests. Each man is subordinate to the ethical whole – if the State claims one's life then the individual must surrender it. Because everything is ultimately one, the collective has primacy over the individual. Hegel's State has no room for the idea of individual rights or a liberal theory of the State; instead it provides an ethical underpinning for totalitarianism. The State is an independent, self-sustaining, superorganism made up of men and having a purpose and will of its own.

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/05/051115-11.htm

Considering the citizens of the US can not name the characteristics of democracy and seem to think democracy came from the Bible, and they have no idea what morals have to do with liberty or democracy, I would say there is little hope of recovering the democracy they defended in two world wars.

Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. That is not a job the church nor the military can do. I get you all are concerned about the media, but hey, whose responsible for that? Only an educated population can protect our right to honest and unbiased news.

The cure can't come from the political establishment. It has to come from The People, or it won't happen. — Bitter Crank

Thanks Bitter Crank, but without education preparing the people to do that it will not happen. They are totally defenseless and think the best way to beat Trump is to have someone just like him running against him. Even if the Democrats won with such a person, the state of the union would not improve. We need a new revolution, one that occurs in the media and schools to save our democracy. There are new books coming out that may wake us up, but I am afraid that will not be enough.

Intelligent though scares the hell out of Christian men and the women who dream of some sugar daddy to protect them. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Okay, you are really pushing things, :grin:

The 2012 Texas Republican Agenda was to prevent education in the higher-order thinking skills. Teachers had to take Texas to the supreme court level to put a stop to them being forced to teach creationism as equal to science and use science books that treat creationism as equal to science. Texas Republicans are responsible for the election of Eisenhower, Reagan, and Bush, and they support Trump.

SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP - Republican Party of Texas
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Our failure to be aware of what Christians have done to our democracy and what they are trying to do, is perhaps the worst reality the world has ever faced. Germany was a very small country with very limited resources compared to the US that has adopted the German model of bureaucracy and German model of education for technology for military and industrial purposes. Does that answer the question in the title of this thread?

A fascist religion would not have it any other way. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

OMG I love you! :love: Where do you come from? What lead you to that awareness? When the National Defense Education Act (1958) was enacted we replaced our liberal education modeled after Athens education for well rounded, individual growth and good moral judgment, with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purposes and left moral training to the Church. Now Trump is our president and he is the only person we need to govern us, just as the kings of the Bible. :zip:

To live infinitely, would be the most boring existence, I think, and would leave us all wishing we could die. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Achilles in Homer's Iliad said that the gods envy us because we are mortal: any moment could be our last, and this makes everything more beautiful. “You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again”.Jun 17, 2017
The Gods – are they really jealous of us? - The Joy of Living
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I do not see any evil in nature. To be evil, nature would need to show intent to harm. Nature only shows that it supports all life and does not care who the winners or losers are. It cannot as it is not sentient. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I totally agree with you, but I think we are engaging Christians and I want to stress science has done more for us than religion in terms a religious person might grasp.

We default to cooperation which gives good results all around and only do evil to the losers of competitions when we choose to compete. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I think Cicero would enjoy that explanation. :up:

Religions just screw up on the definition of sin. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I agree with that. I believe Cicero was correct to say we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what that is. In the US, liberal education, that is education based on being literate in Greek and Roman classics, promoted the idea that bad judgment is the result of ignorance. I think evil is the product of ignorance. When we understand disease is spread by polluted water, we avoid drinking the polluted water. We don't go looking for the witch or drive the Jews (Muslims) away, making a bad even worse. Ouch, :grimace: this reasoning does not appear to be the dominating reasoning of the US today. I think that is a problem of leaving moral training to the Church with a history of persecution and war.

Be we created by a god or nature, we are all doing exactly what we were created to do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I strongly disagree with that. For evidence of why that idea is incorrect, I offer an explanation of "fast and slow thinking. This google page provides links https://www.google.com/search?q=fast+and+slow+thinking&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&oq=fast+and+slow+thinking&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l6j69i65.8577j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 I like the youtube explanations but don't know the forum policy of posting them, so I leave everyone with a choice.

Our disagreement rest on the whole notion of our understanding of being human. Wetting ourselves is natural and we learn how not to do that. We can all develop virtues that separate us from the animals, and turn us into thinking beings, not just creatures of nature.

That view explains why Jesus saw heaven right here and right now at all points in time. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is a Hellenistic notion. The Greeks wrote the first Bible and filled it with their understanding of what is so. Augustine picked up this paganism and Christianized it. That is, the Romans took control of editing the Bible and they were weak on Greek reasoning, and later Augustine who was influenced by the "pagan" thinking, brought it back into Christian consciousness. The Roman influence has the new testament telling us God wants us to honor Him by being good slaves. That is totally opposed to the old testament explaining Jews can own slaves but should not be slaves because of the relationship with God. I think the Roman influence on Christianity is problematic but that is for another thread.

Few, as he indicated, have the mentality to see it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Augustine explains this awareness of knowing God is within and I am confident this a matter of growing up. When we are young it seems everything important is outside of us. We are as empty cups needing to be filled. In our later years, we think of ourselves as being filled with the knowledge of life, our cup is filled, and our thinking literally changes. We shift from seeking knowledge of life through experience, to contemplating the meaning of it all.

Rome was more materialistic than the Greeks, and the White Anglo Saxons Protestants who invaded North America, were not spiritual as the native Americans were spiritual. Those are very different consciousnesses and a man of Rome or under Roman influence, should not be judging the whole of humanity.

That assumes no other justification. — Hanover

Ah, one line of questioning that got Socrates into trouble went like this...

"Are the gods good?" The answer was yes.

"Is adultery good?" Everyone knew Zeus committed adultery and that was not considered a virtue.

So I ask does the Bible say God is a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God?

Is it good to be jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing, or is that the role model for an abusive husband and a terrible boss?

In another thread, there was an objection to Islam carrying the "eye for an eye" justice, but so did Judaism until Jesus. Quakers stay with the New Testament because the ideas of God and justice in old testament are not the God and justice they value. They favor Jesus as the word and God. That new way of seeing God and Justice is Hellenism. "The word" is English for logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in the speech. As we understand it, so we manifest it. Mohammid was aware of Christianity and Judaism but did not have the culture of Hellenism, so their correction of the God's truth as the Jews understood it, was not the same as the Christian correction of God's truth as the Jews understood it.

How we interpret the Bible is a matter of concrete and abstract thinking, and also our knowledge of history.

If it is the case that there are alternative ways to listen to accepted understandings of text read by many people, shouldn't you be starting there? — Valentinus

That is a good place to start. We can think concretely or abstractly. If we think concretely we interpret things literally. In this case, there are demons and they can be seen fleeing a body as this is what the Bible says. Satan and demons being real entities with the power to affect our lives.

If we think abstractly, a demon is a fear or anger. These are psychological manifestations and are not entities.

Biblical terminology can be useful when we think abstractly and harmful when we think concretely and start hunting witches or become prejudice against a group of people with the notion they are not saved and are under the influence of God's curse (dark skinned people) or Satan. I have not been able to figure out how we are to know if it is Satan troubling us or God punishing us?

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught and that Gnostic Christians have embraced. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Too bad the Bible didn't give us the information we need to survive on a violent planet with deadly diseases. I think science has done more to overcome evil than religion. And that Garden of Eden story is one of the worst stories ever written. If we let that story control us, we would still be in the dark ages hunting witches, instead of finding cures for disease.

As we have a world pandemic perhaps the sales of Bibles and silver crosses will go up? whoops, I forgot the holy water. We must be baptized in it to be saved.

Exactly. I would act morally whether or not legislatively required to. I internalize normative authority, as I'm sure do many people. Traditionally, the internalization of moral authority is viewed as a normal part of socio-psychological development. — Pantagruel

Traditional we educated for that, and the 1958 National Defense Education Act, ended that education.

Did you read the Cicero quotes and get this moral judgment is based on nature, not religion? That is, democracy is about searching for truth using scientific thinking, not "faith-based on mythology", and that search leads to good medicine and good government and is what made us great.

What is extremely important to us today is understanding why our president needs to be humble and honorable? Is a president someone who flaunts health precautions and speaks in favor of denial and carelessness, someone we want leading us now? Is he being a good example? Do we want our children growing up to be like him, and should money be the bottom line of all decisions, or are we having a moral problem?

Can anyone see, Iran and Muslims have grounds for saying we are Satan on earth, and why they are feeling far more pious and justified in opposing us because we no longer stand for a high morality? Since 1958 our bottom line has been military power and money. The values of the Military-Industrial Complex originated in Prussia and was adopted by the US, discontinuing education for good moral judgment and leaving moral training to the Church, and "authority" to those in power. Religion that has been behind one war after another. Our world image has changed and nations that were our friends now threaten us.

Can we talk about morals as Cicero did

“What is morally wrong can never be advantageous, even when it enables you to make some gain that you believe to be to your advantage. The mere act of believing that some wrongful course of action constitutes an advantage is pernicious.” — Cicero

It was morally wrong for the US to invade Iraq and doing so escalated wars and human suffering and the potential for a world war. A moral must include the future, and that must be more than 5 years. It must include more than what is good for the US at this moment in time. We are not thinking morally because public education stopped preparing the young for good moral judgment and left that to the Church. We now think Christianity invented democracy, and God favors us and His will is what we want and He will give us His "Power and Glory" to get it. I assume we should not take political discussion too far, but our image is no longer what it was. The world thought we would be the last nation to be a Military Industrial Complex and here we are, the strongest Military Industrial Complex on earth with China now right on our butts technologically and economically. The world expects much from us and we have a President who is making it very clear our focus is on our own interest, and that is not exactly a moral interest because it is only about our own interest. China has made it clear, it will play the power game with us. Russia has wanted to out-compete us. Too bad, the competition is not a moral one.