Well, I did try to highlight examples of fantastic citizenship and community spirit, that I know for a fact exists in the small Scottish town I live in. Surely that and the fact that such is alive and kicking in 2023, should offer you some contentment that we have not all surrendered to tock yet. — universeness

That is a hopeful statement. I say that because I don't have a sense of it being true where I live. In a democracy, we all have responsibilities for our families, community, and then nation. We did handle everything without government when in 1830 Tocqueville wrote of democracy in America. That is no longer true. Even if we wanted to do something government policy restricts what we can do. I have heard office managers talk to a dentist or doctor as though these people work on an assembly line. Absolutely no respect for them as well-educated human beings with the liberty to do as they see fit. Teachers are so controlled by the government and the need to do paperwork it is amazing they continue to teach. We are coming on Christmas and people want to exchange gifts but if I exchanged gifts with a client, my supervisor would fear the whole program would be shut down in our area and she would get rid of me in a heartbeat. How we experience life today is not how we experienced life before 1958.

I think in rural areas people might have a greater sense of freedom, but they feel threatened and in the US we all seem to see government as our worst enemy. It does seem to be trying too hard to control everything. Our politics are now very reactionary and we are dangerously divided. I think this problem is connected to mass murders and failed marriages. On the good side, we are seeing problems and this leads to trying to resolve them.

All this was part of my 1957-1965 routine public school education in Toronto. Plus domestic skills, health and hygiene, math, grammar, literature, history, geography and science, access to the library and extracurricular activities. A lot of the arts and after-school programs were cut dues to financial constraints. A friend who came from the US and later went back told me that her daughter who wanted to study geography at post-secondary level could not find a school in Chicago that offered it. — Vera Mont

Hold on to that memory because that is what I am talking about! I studied home economics and I did not question that I should find a husband, get married, and have children. I wanted to be a teacher like my grandmother but my father felt strongly about the woman staying home to care for the family and that I should continue with home economics education.

It was a shock to me that women's lib would destroy that value system and turn us into "just housewives" as though that is almost the lowest thing a woman can be. Just one step above a prostitute. Then I learned of matriarchy and some Native American tribes where women have value and are highly respected. I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture. How did the development of well-rounded individual growth become too expensive and focus us on education for military and industrial needs?

Are people who will never go to college being cheated out of the education they need, turning them into throw-away human beings, as we focus on those going to college and education for technology, not for humans? Do you realize, when we die there will be no one who remembers life as we experienced it? Such as living with a feeling of safety and not fearing someone will flip out and start gunning down everyone in sight, or children being gone all day and not fearing they will be abducted, or thinking we need strong men to run our nations because everything is falling apart.

That is the important part of the message of the Natives and tribal peoples.
Earth plus us is a marriage, a relationship, a friendship.
The current relationship to the Earth too often is ‘take, take, take!’… which ends up being very close to criminal activity like slavery, theft, and rape. — 0 thru 9

Years ago when women's liberation was changing everything and my marriage was grinding to an end I sought counseling. I had a sense that the problem was a spiritual one and counseling was not addressing this. Christianity was no help to me because of its tie with Satan and demons and the idea that Satan could possess a person definitely was not helpful!

I was born in Seattle, Washington and my WWII vet father walked with me in the forest. This is the kind of spirituality I desire but back in the day, it was next to impossible to get any information about it. And I want to thank you all for participating in this thread and all the thinking your replies stir in me. At the moment I am questioning my reliance on Athens that continues to exclude the Native American spirituality which I still hunger for. A PBS show about Chaco Canyon has me thinking heavily about these people's spiritual point of view. Animism is a belief about the entire universe being alive and some of the science I have come across is saying the same thing.

Are there things from Native American culture that should be included in our education? What kind of person do we want our young to become?

Helping out locally, via volunteer work, is I think one of the best uses of a person's time you can ever take part in. The wee town I live in, has so many wee community help groups, and they are all fantastic. — universeness

:rofl: I know retired who are shocked by how busy they are!

May I say, when women were expected to be full-time homemakers that came with taking care of everyone in the community. Of course not all women could get involved with volunteer work, especially if they were working on a farm where the whole family works, but she was to help all family members in need of help and by law could be fined if she did not. I have a 1941 Family Law book. Back in the day, there were charities but not government assistance and laws actually spelled out how family is responsible for family. It find it hard to believe how we have gotten so far from the meaning of family that every civilization had. This "I" come first and my happiness is more important than the family, so a horror to me and I am not sure civilization can continue like this.

The Old American Act entitles older people to decent housing, transportation, free education, and more but what goes with that is the idea that this enables them to continue to be valuable contributing members of society. It was never meant to support the notion, "me first". It was to support a democracy where we work together for the good of all.

Do others have notions about what it means to be a citizen in a democracy? In a kingdom, everyone expects to rely on the king, but in a democracy, every citizen has a part to play. This gives us a kind of immortality because our lives are bigger than just ourselves, and we carry the purpose of giving our best to the future and our nation. Everyone has a part to play.

Thanks for your wonderful post!
:flower: :smile: :up: — 0 thru 9

I watched a show about Native Americans and have been attempting to see the world from the point of view of people who were here long before Europeans and the technology that came with them and continues to drive our modern way of life. I want to feel connected with Mother Earth and live with the purpose of caring for nature.

I am not sure if all matriarchies are better suited for democracy than patriarchies. I have read of many matriarchies and sports events they created to manage aggression so that it did not become harmful to the community. I think music and dancing maybe important to having social harmony. My my grandmother's day it was common to start a class with a song. Such as....

Good morning to you
good morning to you
We are all in our places
with smiles on our faces
and this is the way to
start and good day.

Are there any opinions about the psychological factor in music, song, dance, sports, and possibly art? All this would be part of a liberal education.

I’d put a similar thought in this way: a culture of people can either be a ‘dominator culture’ or not.
These days the word ‘dominant’ is seen as superior, but being a ‘D-Cult’ its strength is superficial and stolen… and extremely toxic.
It’s like a person growing rich by embezzlement; it may go on for years, but it is ultimately unsustainable.

We are living in a dominator culture (as you probably agree).

As a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with.
It is difficult to argue with because it is the logic of absolute power, the persuasion of guns behind all the complex and scholarly reasoning.

And to defy the Empire that rules the world, an empire that is now beyond any one particular nation, is a paradox.

It is a paradox because it is suicidal to oppose complete power, yet it is genocidal to go along with it.

This is why the people around us (and perhaps ourselves) are struggling to keep from slipping into insanity. — 0 thru 9

Oh yeah, I agree with you! If I were a millionaire I would rent rooms in a hotel with a conference room and pay everyone's way to our conference. Seriously, :broken: my knowledge comes from old books, and the only way we will the essential agreements to take action is to share those books. Not that long ago what the children read was considered as important as their ability to read. We did not fill school libraries with trash books because that is what the children will read. Today what is in school libraries is as bad as the junk food US schools feed their children because that is what they will eat.

If you read the old grade textbooks I have, you would see they are about teaching children how to behave and how to think. Again and again, the textbooks are about cooperating and sharing, and good manners. Not the aggressive and socially inappropriate books that are in children's libraries today. The word "civilize" means to make like us and our liberty depends on education that transmits a culture, that is education advances a civilization and how we do that was radically changed in 1958 because those put in control of education were those who are about military defense and industrial needs. Education was controlled by the people in town, not the federal government.

:broken: Yes, what you said "a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with." is absolutely true and do you realize how this is tied up with banking, and cities getting loans or not? This is not what the US stood for. :cry: I think we can turn things around. Our whole economy may completely collapse before everyone is ready to turn things around, however, if that point in time comes, if no one is prepared for democracy we will not recover. That you and the others here care gives me great hope we can turn things around because we are not the only ones working on the problems. We can unite and we can join with others and we can spread the word. Remember there was a time when no one heard of Jesus, and then just about everyone in the world knows the Bible story. Spreading the word and turning things around is possible. It is just a different story that needs to be told.

I will use your post to explain education for good reasoning. I think just about everyone takes good reasoning for granted.

Hear is a very simple explanation of why we should not take good reasoning for granted.



It is not easy being human and the classics help us better understand how to be a good human being. A few prisons have used education in the classics to actually correct the prisoner's social problems. Socrates and Cicero and Jefferson and others saw character development as the most important need for education. Here as an explanation being human and is helpful in being a better human.



Education for democracy teaches us the rules for logical thinking and rules for good communication skills. There are many explanations for logical thinking. I like this one best because in it we can see how the Greeks came to scientific thinking.

https://medium.com/illumination/5-logical-rules-that-will-improve-your-reasoning-skills-instantly-b60b7bc64246

I totally agree that you can better help others, when you yourself can take the basic means of survival for granted. That's why I fight for food, water, shelter etc as basic human rights, and not something anyone should have to 'work for.' I was merely pointing out that sooooooo many people are willing to, and are in fact compelled to, help make things better for everyone. As long as it is true, that good people will not just stand by and watch horror and terror happen to others, then we do earn the right to continue to exist imo. Many still do nothing, and they do merely watch as evil grows and thrives but, as Gandhi pointed out, we always, eventually, bring such evils down, we destroy them. The nefarious rise again or hide and come out again, and the fight continues. But general progress on behalf of more and more 'have nots' is made. As I said before, most people have more ability to affect the nefarious than they have ever had before. A billionaire can be brought down almost overnight today, as can a government, if the people decide to act en-masse. — universeness

Please, I am stretched so thin right now I want to pick up the argument in favor of minding our own business and not trying to save the rest of the world. Note, I am skipping the pool this morning so I can join you in the effort to save the world. The fellow I take shopping on Saturday is in the hospital again and that leaves me to care for his dog. I had to ignore you all for another day or give up swimming for the day. My point is, that our lives can get very busy and just getting ourselves through the day can seem like a huge feat, so how do things work for us to do more?

At the mandatory meeting yesterday we were given CDs and DVDs regarding our physical and mental health. It is a wonderful gift but who paid for it? I asked the question but did not get a good answer. My point is, how do we organize to meet the many, many needs of people and how does this get paid for? Right now it all is potluck!

Someone where you live may be providing what you need and maybe not. We are also at that time of year when insurance companies are vying to be our medical insurer. I hate this process because if we do not get well informed or have an unexpected medical problem, we could end up with insurance that does not meet our needs. From my position in life, it is horrifying to be aware of the huge difference in what homeless people get, compared to what housed people get. Homeless people do not qualify for so much because services depend on having a home. A crippled person with a home can get a lot of assistance that makes his/her life comfortable, but not an old crippled person without a home. You might qualify for a home nurse when you are released from the hospital, but if you don't have a home, you don't get a home nurse. If you are insulin-dependent and don't have a home, you can not refrigerate the insulin. Like we can't even figure out how to shelter vulnerable people, who should get housing, let alone provide for young healthy people who may become like feral cats if left on the streets too long.

Before I mentioned my concern of people being so dependent they are not motivated to be contributing members of society. I am afraid just providing for everyone will make the problems much worse. Unless a person is mentally or physically disabled, this person needs a way of feeling like a useful and valued member of society, and all of us need things in our lives that schedule our lives even the handicapped can do much better, be happier people, with a job to do. I am speaking from my experience with foster homes and the social/work-related opportunities for them. I love to see their pride when they can report what they did during the day. It makes them one of us.

Oh my love, how do we organize that perfect world? Should we rely on thousands of individual efforts as we do in the US or should government be the organizing force? And if government, how do we avoid this being authoritarian and too controlling and too impersonal? Thanks to HIPAA I don't know where the homeless man I help is. I assume he was moved back to the long-term care facility after being in the hospital again. I need to know by Friday so I can visit him. Everyone I deal with sympathizes with my frustration of him being moved and no one being able to tell me where he was taken, and all these people are intensely afraid of what will happen if they dare violate HIPAA policy. Do you hear me? Our government can create a nightmare with an insane need to control.

get this unsettling feeling that many people (10 thousand? 100 thousand?) in the USA are actively chomping at the bit to start another US civil war… or some bloody battles anyway.
They are pumped up with automatic weapons, anger, and enough ‘theory’ to be actual loose cannons… and they are proud of this.

Trump not only uses these people for votes and cash, but I seriously wonder if one of Trump’s multiple personalities actually wants to start a civil war.
Especially now that he probably feels persecuted; I fear he wants a bloodbath.

I dislike DeSantis and his stupid bigotry very much, but he is not the nuclear timebomb and stuff of nightmares that Trump is. I hope neither gets the nomination.
The status quo sucks, but some of the ‘alternatives’ are hell on earth. — 0 thru 9

:grin: Socrates would love your argument. That is the problem with learning the technology of rhetoric instead of being prepared for good moral judgment. That rhetoric can get people into wars they should avoid. Our sense of self-importance has gone crazy. We are as paranoid as Germany, suffering an extreme need to be superior and in control. That comes with education for technology. This is a culture change that came with the change in education.

Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. — Athena

What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark

Much better-informed people than myself have debated why Athens was an intellectual leader. For sure part of that was their notion of gods, but Egypt and other civilizations also had many gods. Athens's break from the rest seems to come with the notion of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. That definitely tipped Athens toward science and away from supernatural beings.

I suspect Pythagoras did not discover the theorem he is credited with because it seems more logical to me that that discovery came from China and its use of metal bowls. This also points to another reason for Athens leaping ahead of the rest intellectually, its contact with people from around the world, especially after the Persian war and building the new temple for Athena and a university to attract people from around the world. The Persian war did for Athens what the world wars did for the US regarding economic and technological growth. Athens's navy turning into merchant ships put the growth of Athens on steroids and the intensional use of Athena's temple and a university was genius. However, problems came with these changes as well.

Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were focused on what made a human good, not the technologies, especially not the technology of making a good speech (rhetoric) which should bring to mind Jefferson and his concern for education for good moral judgment being essential to democracy. Liberal education being literate in the ancient philosophers who gave us the reasoning for democracy. Democracy does not begin with the story of Adam and Eve and our need to be saved from a curse we carry because of what Adam and Eve ate. No, Socrates demonstrated how the right questioning can result in a completely uneducated boy to correctly answering mathematical questions proving humans are capable of reasoning, of discovering logos. No one is born to be a king or a slave as Christians believed. Jews and the Greeks fought a war because Greeks did merit hiring and did not respect the Jewish system of our jobs depending on a person's inherited position in life. I am saying the belief system for democracy is not the same as the one Christianity gives us. Specifically the importance of universal, secular education for good moral judgment.

Bottom line The learned belief system for democracy with liberty is- democracy is rule by reason and all citizens need education for good reasoning.

Why should anyone make common cause for someone who feels contempt for them? — T Clark

Because it is the right thing to do.

What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark

I totally agree and that gives us immortality because it is not about each of us as mortal individuals, but all of us creating a future.

Critical thought is what is needed, but can critical thought even be learned? — Tzeentch

That is what a liberal education is about and many colleges are proud of their liberal education programs. My problem with this is not everyone goes to college and those who do may not get a liberal education. Education for democracy which is a liberal education, must begin with the first day of school.

"I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. no other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of freedom, and happiness."
(Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, August 13, 1786) — Jefferson

You have mainly talked about the whole nation - as if it were one country, rather than four or six. — Vera Mont

I speak of democracy. I am not a nationalist and I am troubled when speak as though the world would not know democracy without the US. Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. It is the concept of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and our ability to discover logos, universal laws, and figure out how to live with those laws and improve our lives. For the first time in history, most of us are enjoying abundance and we dare to dream big dreams. We are not living with the fear of people we know starving to death in the long winter months. As in my reply to universeness, our abundance increases our potential. The thoughts that occurred in Athens got us here.

Next to full bellies, we need education, a liberal education that draws on the classics.

A liberal arts education will also help you develop a strong sense of social responsibility as well as strong and transferable intellectual and practical skills, such as communication, analytical, and problem-solving abilities, and a demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills in real-world settings.Nov 20, 2022

The Benefits of a Liberal Arts Education - Coalition for College

Coalition

for College
https://www.coalitionforcollegeaccess.org › the-benefits-...

Do you have anything to say about how military technology changed education and how bureaucratic technology increases the power of government to control our lives or what abundance and security has done to how we think?

The Peace Core was begun during the Kennedy administration. It has attracted millions of people willing to take risks to help people around the world. Soon after the Peace Core we got America Core, our domestic Peace Core also helping people but they do so within the US. Many churches send missionaries around the world and there are many organizations for helping people and millions more who support those doing the work by making donations. We evolved to cooperate and help others. This is what kept us alive since we first came down from the trees.

HOWEVER, all that good depends on having an abundance. If we have to fight for resources we will. In villages that are so poor children must fend for themselves by age 3. You will not find loving families where life is that severe. The Christian God was a God to fear for centuries before our bellies were full and He became a loving God.

Universeness, I think would like this book...

Abundance Book by Peter Diamandis

Peter Diamandis
https://www.diamandis.com › abundance
"This brilliant must-read book provides the key to the coming era of abundance replacing eons of scarcity. Abundance is a powerful antidote to today's malaise ...

What is the importance of abundance?
Why is having the abundance mindset important? Having an abundance mindset practically shifts our perspective of things. It builds healthy ways of thinking and allows us to attract the things we want in our life by taking action based on motivation rather than fear. — Peter Diamandis

I think when Trump was our president, we experienced the division that was felt during the Civil War. The way he handled Covid and went about other things, divided all of us and we turned our backs on our neighbors and friends who were no longer our friends because it was unbearable to associate with those we opposed. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was such a strong emotional thing it was closer to insanity than sanity, and I think that happens when people go to war.

Some of the best words ever written were written by

Here Thucydides, in one of his greatest passages [3:82; translation by Rex Warner from the Penguin Classics edition], describes the political and psychological consequences of this breakdown of civil society:

"To fit with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against the enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching …

Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of established laws, but to acquire power by overthrowing the existing regime; and the members of these parties felt confidence in each other not because of any fellowship in a religious communion, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect." — Steven Pressfield

The words of the video could come from Thucydides and we know of Thucydides because he comes from classical literature, the source of our culture that is still with us even though we are no longer literate in the classics.

Be convinced that to be happy means to be free and that to be free means to be brave. Therefore do not take lightly the perils of war. Thucydides
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/thucydides-quotes — Thucydides

At our best, I think humans demonstrate far far more empathy, altruism, cooperation, good morality standards and an ability and fierce motivation to be a net positive towards our environment and everything in it, compared to both of them, especially when one of them does not exist.

Addition: Just to be clear, I fully accept that we are primates, but my point was from the position of being the best of them, and then being at OUR best. — universeness

That good is reliant on our abundance and that is very threatened right now. I believe our economy is very fragile right now and if it falls again, the violence will get worse. If the US defaults on its loans the economy will suffer. If we do not defend those we are committed to defending, the status and the economy or the US will take a big hit. The cost of our military and war could destroy us because our goodness is based on our abundance not our reasoning for things like universal health care and government-provided low-income housing, and that abundance may not last.

I still don't agree. According to what I've read, American education before that act, followed by the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, finally made some semblance of an academically rounded education possible for the majority of students. (Except where nobbled by state law and disabled by religious segregation.) — Vera Mont

What have you read? This is a sincere question because when people disagree it is usually because their sources of information are different. Also because the south and north of the US were separated from the being, the region we are talking about could be important. I have Paul Monroe, PH.D's 1910 "A TEXT BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF EDUCATION" and James Mulhern's 1956 "A HISTORY OF EDUCATION- A SOCIAL INTERPRETATION" several books by John Dewey who was a leader in education, an 1883 Bancroft "Fifth Reader" and more. There is nothing I would rather do than spend my days with these books and the people in this forum. :heart: Seriously if we all could share these books I would pull away from my present commits and make you all the focus of my life.

Looking at the 1883 reader The focus on speaking skills is obvious. So is the cultural information obvious. There are samples of stories passed down the ages that are the foundation of our culture, and important people of the past and that time in history are mentioned along with passages about the constitution and liberty. Really education for technology was limited to reading, writing, and arithmetic. While just years later our national defense needed typists, mechanics, and engineers and we were scrambling to catch up with Germany which had education for technology of military and industrial needs.

At the Nation Education Association in 1917, this urgent need was the subject of many speeches, and J.A.B. "Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland Recruiting station, Portland, Ore. made the immediate need to change in education clear. "As sudden the act of an unknown youth whose leap exploded the European powder mine was the stroke of the German military machine.....Such a state of events were possible only thru the workings of the most highly organized and scientifically operated military machine the world has ever known and well it was for that machine's opponents that they too were in a measure organized after the same general scientific plan.....

One of the most salient features of the opposing military-naval establishment of the European nations at war today is the specialization of the one-time-citizen-now-soldier along scientific war-industrial-trade lines, and -since past and present events the best human forecast do not justify the human hope for early world peace- it behooves the citizens of our country, now adding its part to this well-nigh universal conflict, to train its young men to think and work in like scientific line to the end that mobilization of these resources may insure our nation against disaster."

I am running out of time- this is what Eisenhower was talking about. The Military Industrial Complex began with the Prussians who ruled Germany following the 30 Years War. The divisions between the military and industry were removed as government turned the whole nation into a Military Industrial Complex. This exists today and has been developed in all modern countries because this is about bureaucratic organization and the economy and the competition for decreasing resources while the demand for those resources is greatly increasing.

Note Germany specialized its citizens and they worshipped efficency. Democracy is not efficient and there is a serious problem for a democracy if the citizens are not generalists. The German people and the citizens of the US were not that different, but their bureaucratic organization and education were different. The US adopted both the German bureaucratic model and the education model and now it is what it defended its democracy against. Reactionary politics, and everywhere a growing brutality as we revert back to being as animals. Our abundance is counteracting this degradation of our humanity but if it ends, our civility will end.

She is convinced that, prior to that change, US education promoted Greek style values and good citizenship. — Vera Mont

Thank you Vera. We used the Athenian model of education for well-rounded individual growth. This prepared the young for life and self-government and was along the lines of liberal education. Since 1958 we are preparing the young to be products for industry, and a high-tech society with unknown values. It goes with the change in bureaucratic order that shifts liberty and power away from the individual to the state. That leads to increasing authority over the people and a police state. That is a very different culture than the one we had.

Wow, I gave a lot of time to my explanation and you have not kept your promise to address democracy.

"I have found that life persists in the midst of destruction and, therefore, there must be a higher law than that of destruction. Only under that law would a well-ordered society be intelligible and life worth living. And if that is the law of life, we have to work it out in daily life. Wherever there are jars, wherever you are confronted with an opponent, conquer him with love. In this crude manner, I have worked it out in my life. That does not mean that all my difficulties are solved. Only, I have found that this law of love has answered as the law of destruction has never done."

—Mahatma Gandhi, YI, 1-10-1931, p.286 — Existential Hope

That is reminiscent of Greek philosophy and the monster that consumed everything even itself. That means the powers of creativity and goodness must be the most powerful because if destruction were the greater power, nothing would exist.

I am frustrated by limited time and lack of knowledge and I want to say I think the most ancient thinkers have a quality of thought that is superior to thinking that follows learning. I think learning tends to close the mind. Learning can open the mind too but it can deaden intuitive thinking, right? I know in ancient times people paid attention to patterns and used math to express order.

This discussion with everyone's participation has been so stimulating, I would love to drop my daily commitments and focus on the thinking being done here.

With what is happening in Israel and Ukraine it is pretty hard to have faith in the good. I am struggling.

I will immediately watch the video and I am so thrilled you see something important in Athens and Sparta!

Germany was the Sparta of the modern world because of Prussian control and the US was the Athens of the modern world. Now the US is also the Sparta of the modern world.

You asked some very good questions.

Not that long ago education was not important to most jobs. Being able to read was not a requirement for the labor force and graduating high school was not required. At the time of the Great Depression, it was much more important to have a job than an education. Manual labor did not require it. Things changed big time after WWII and this is the story I would like everyone to know.

Know there is a direct connection between war and education, starting with WWI. This is because of technological advances and Germany was far ahead of everyone else because it had education for industrial and military purposes long before WWI. I can send you quotes from books explaining all this if you want. It is 100% It is 100% the purpose of this thread to talk about why the US is now just like the enemy it defeated in WWI and WWII. Past President Eisenhower warned us about the Military Industrial Complex and we ignored him but he was telling us something very important.

The first link is a short explanation of Eisenhower's concern and the next one is the original speech.





Education for technology began in 1917 and it took us a year to mobilize for the war. Education not only prepared us mentally for the war but also organized volunteers to support the war, and educated for conservation, and replacing flour with corn meal, and much more. Those who understood the situation were in a near panic to prepare our young with the new technological skills WWI demanded but education for citizenship and patriotism remained the priority until the military technology of WWII. Are the connections between war and advanced military technology and changes in public education clear?

what was the pre-"1958" "purpose of education" — 180 Proof

so what was the pre-"1958" "purpose of education" — 180 Proof

Good moral judgment and good citizenship.

vis-à-vis state-sanctioned racial terrorism / legal segregation, systemic discrimination against women & gays, widespread unfair & unsafe labor practices, endemic populist antisemitism, wholesale environmental degregation by agriculture & heavy industry, and ongoing land (and mineral rights) theft from and 'public erasure' of Indigenous Americans ... — 180 Proof

All of that seems so obvious today but none of it was obvious before and that it is obvious today is a positive change resulting from preparing our young for a technological society with unknown values.
We could have an amazing discussion if it is asking and answering questions, rather than cutting statements and putting me on the defensive. Nothing is black and white and there is a lot of complexity to all of this. People of color were willing to fight in the war because of the efforts to make everyone patriotic. Then the shit really hit the fan when came home from the war and realized they were not equally sharing the benefits that they fought to defend. Is that clear? War intensified the effort to educate for patriotism and that came back to bite the Whites when the people of color fought to defend our way of life that they learned about in school but did not in fact enjoy.

Here is the problem and solution- All the horrors of wrongdoing came with a different reasoning than we have today and some people are still locked in that ugly past. Education can change reasoning and laws that prevent discrimination change what we experience and that also changes our consciousness.

There is no need for you to list democratic values. Often I ask questions so the other person will think about them, not because I want an answer to the questions. Until it is obvious that our democracy is in deep trouble because almost no one knows the democratic values, no one will see any need to have education for democracy. That is what this thread is about.

There are two ways to have social order, culture, or authority over the people. Without education that transmits the necessary culture, the culture for liberty and justice can not be manifest. Along with education for technology comes authority over the people, and chaos we are experiencing.

The power of the authority above us today is exactly what we defended our democracy against in two world wars, before adopting the German models of bureaucracy and education. As people sometimes need psycho-analysis, nations can need psycho-analysis and the US most certainly need psycho-analysis! In social services and medical care, people are operating in intense fear of policies like HIPAA and the punishments brought down from government if they violate the policy set by a committee that is dismissed after the policy is made, and there is no way to change anything except an act of congress. This leads directly to the horrors of Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, I doubt that anyone understands the importance of what I am saying. BUT THIS IS NOT HOW WE EXPERIENCED BEING AMERICANS IN THE PAST. As the people in the past did not see the wrongs with their prejudies, we can not see the wrong past President Eisenhower warned us of.

Okay please list 10 characteristics of democracy and perhaps say something about how they relate to our ideas of right and wrong.

Unfortunately, I have to run. If I don't get back to you soon, remind me, because I really want to speak of that past and how it related to change. I think we should be speaking of democracy rather than racism or discrimination. I am late.:rage:

My insurmountable hurdle was this one:
The closer a system gets to the 4 omnis, the more moral it would become.
— universeness
What does 'moral' mean in this context? By what standards? For what reason? What would impel it?
Especially when bolstered by this:
Does 'with great power comes great responsibility,' not ring true for you?
— universeness
Not as it has applied to human agents through history. Certainly not to human sentiments regarding insects. Why would it apply to a non-human? — Vera Mont

↪Vera Mont
Humiliation does not cure hatred.
— Vera Mont

I think that Mahatma Gandhi's primary aim was to generate understanding. Both communities then, and even now, often misunderstood the other and believed as if the other side was filled with evil people who were hell-bent on destroying them. Breaking this perspectis a major step towards national unity. To a great extent, he managed to succeed in his aim. Even during the height of the Pakistan movement (and the communalism of the Hindu Mahasabha), leaders such as Maulana Azad and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan stood by Mahatma Gandhi and the idea of a united India. — Existential Hope

My head is like a tornado and I am trying to find the order in all those thoughts while it is still stuck on the concept of our stories verses facts and universeness's AI.

I can see in universesness's mention of insects a disregard for life and it comes with a story of one man killing another because these men have stories that make them enemies. The concept of democracy is directly tied to reasoning, liberty and justice. At this moment, I can see a reverence for life missing when we believe we are enemies and can kill another as we might crush a bug. How is that justified? What is the reasoning?

This can be done successfully, I believe, though any person is capable of making mistakes (and learning from them hopefully). — 0 thru 9

I want to jump all over your comment. I have done at least one terrible thing that I regret, and I know I had no reason for thinking what I did was wrong until I got new information years later. Makes me really hurt for the industries that are forced to pay millions of dollars for their mistakes made when no one was aware of the damage that was being done. My point is, we just are not born knowing it all and there is no reason to believe a person who does a wrong automatically is aware of doing anything wrong. We can not miraculously know our wrongs without the information for making that judgment. And even then knowing a wrong is not equal to how to do things better.

I beg everyone, let us be gentle with each other because it is hard to be human. We really need to understand that and to talk about our values and education. What does education have to do with a moral society?

Facts are facts, and facts should certainly be recognized for optimal existence. — 0 thru 9

I love this statement too! :heart: Have you spent time with a severely retarded person who is amazing at seeing life as it is and making good choices? You and I have heads full of stories and most of the time our heads automatically give us feedback based on our stories, not so much the facts at the moment. For example, I attempted to leave a gated nursing home with my friend and as soon as I saw the locking mechanism, I knew we had to go back inside to get the code (my technological story of how things work). My friend stuck his hand through the gate and opened it from the outside. He was a great help to me when my life was turned upside down and my middle-class mentality was not enough to keep
things going. He came with very different stories and better coping skills than I had at the time in my life.

I often do my best to empty my head and experience life as people did in northern Europe a few thousand years back. :cry: I can't do it. I can not, not know what I know, and sometimes, what I think I know is the worst barrier to learning and experiencing reality as it is, instead of what I think it is.

In the experience of being a human, with perceptions, sensations, ideas, and feelings swirling around our minds, and activity churning nonstop around us, using internal stories makes the world clearer to us. — 0 thru 9

:sad: I am afraid that is not so for the reason I explained. Using internal stories may seem to make the world clearer but OMG when the story is a lie it can make life very, very bad. Wars are fought over who has the right story. My Christian friends are so annoying and so completely unaware of the lies they live with. Many of them are around 90 years old and I am not telling them what I think of their lies because facing death without the comforting stories of a God and immortality can be unpleasant. Praying for God to resolve a problem instead of taking the necessary action, really annoys me!

As an example, if a person chooses to perhaps weave into their stories zombies, unicorns, Batman, gnomes, angels, demons, ET aliens, UFOs, multi-dimensions, talking animals or ancestor spirits… and can live a stable existence, who’s to say otherwise? — 0 thru 9

Now universness's argument for AI has a truth to support his argument. That is a lot of creative thinking you listed and not something I think we should accept as truth. By the time a student leaves high school, s/he should have a good understanding of what is fact and what is fiction and how we determine which is which. But now I have to argue what is wrong with AI running the show. I do not think we want a math machine to set human policy nor is it a good thing that our governing bureaucracy has unrestricted authority. HIPAA is a real nightmare that AI could not make any better or worse.

But is claiming to be completely 100% story-free itself a story we can tell ourselves?
Is it helpful or not? — 0 thru 9

It is not possible for us to be 100% story-free. Aristotle "An unexamined life is not worth living." Who are you and how do you know you are you? Does everyone see you the same as you see yourself? What made you as you are? Where do you belong in life? Who is to blame for what is happening in Israel? I assume everyone has a story for judging the warring that is occurring. Not that I want to get into the politics of that, but being aware of different stories is helpful, and knowing we are talking about stories and not just facts, is helpful.

Is this continuous story creation an advanced creative power we have? — 0 thru 9

Wow is that an exciting question when mixed with universeness's understanding of AI. AI can create music but can it stop a war? Or would AI even attempt to create music without a human programming it to do so? With AI I think we are going through a major consciousness change and it could be fun to come back in 200 years to see how humans doing things in the future. What stories will they tell that explain their nations? Our young today do not have a lot of interest in dead men and what used to be.:lol: They can't even think about what happened a few years ago has to do with what is happening today. They know themselves and their lives but not much more.

My grandmother was a reflection of the good values she learned. Today we are living in complete social chaos and absolutely no social agrrements. We have been going through social breakdown or what some may call creative destruction at least since 1958 when the National Defense Education Act radically changed the purpose of education. Thanks to forums with international participants I am aware of this change spreading around the world in the form of bureaucratic technology and economic shifts. I could get extremely political about this, but I want to highlight something you said about our nature.

The golden rule can also be a secular humanist rule, no need for theistic support, imo but I am glad that some religions do try to employ it. It's certainly true that many religious individuals, have made great sacrifices to help other people, but I personally think that such is demonstrated by non-religious folks as much as it is by religious folks. — universeness

For sure the fact that we have survived without claws and fangs proves that we evolved to help each other stay alive. We share much in common with other social animals. Genghis Khan had no problem with killing people until a Chinese man who came from an agricultural society taught Khan to harvest the towns and cities, instead of destroying them. Khan and the Mongols did not come from an agricultural society but a society dependent on hunt in an environment that led them to believe they lived despite the sky god who was far more likely to kill people than to help them survive. So by the Mongol story of life, it was people in the cities who were evil, as the cities led some having great wealth and left many extremely poor. Khan told his people to never settle and become like the city people. Lying and stealing were punishable by death because among the Mongols there was no need to lie and steal because everyone's needs were met. If a stranger knocked on your door without question he was given food and shelter because not doing so could lead to the person's death and someday you might be the one needing food and shelter.

There are so many delightful things to talk about. What is our nature and how does the environment affect our nature and the stories we tell and live by?

People's stories are very important to their notions of truth that give them shared values and learned ways of behavior. The Great Religions gave people stories that led to civilizations, and education for good moral judgment and citizenship is the secular way of making a civilization work.

This is a little off topic but are you aware of Allen Turing being the father of AI?

‘Pick a side, and fight like hell against the evil enemies’ seems to be the common ‘meme’.
Which leads to dehumanizing everyone and falling prey to propaganda, conformism, and mind control. — 0 thru 9

There are some wonderful things about polytheism. Your gods can argue with each other and their arguments expand our consciousness. This is not so with the all-powerful one and only god.

Athenians gave us humanized gods and each one is a concept. Together the gods led to increasingly complex concepts, and this can not be done with Christianity which has only good or evil. If the Renaissance had not occurred we would still be living in the dark ages. It seems a near miracle to me that some Christians and scientists have learned to live together. A book that starts out explaining we are cursed because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge, is not compatible with democracy and universal education to empower the people. I don't think we can get past black or white, right or wrong, this or that thinking, as long as Christianity dominates our culture and the other half of our citizens are ignorant of the reasoning behind democracy. Democracy is an imitation of the gods who argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning. This does not come with the God of Abraham and social structure based on heritage, not the merit that organized Athens. Our freedom of social and economic movement comes from Athens, not the Bible.

Christianity plus education for technology is terrible for humanity! Our love of technology is pushing the this or that, right or wrong, mentality. And what you said is so true! :heart:

There is nothing but horror on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I know there are many contentions that feed the conflict, but the religious one is amongst the worse imo.
When I hear the individual stories of what savagery is meeted out, to individual victims, I again can only find a little solace in silent incredulity. I am a white man, living in a (by comparison with Gaza or Israel) safe Scotland, financially ok, and no major troubles in my life. I just have no experience of facing such levels of horror in my life. — universeness

I remember when the fighting in Ireland was in the news daily and there were other such conflicts based on prejudice against "them" and being totally confused. How do people know who is one of them and who is when everyone looks the same? It totally mystifies me how people can imagine "we" are not like "them"? Really? How are "we" different from "them"? I like the forum rule- Attack people's ideas not the people.

I like the golden rule that exist in all religions- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" I try to live by my Grandmother's 3 rules.

We respect all people because we are respectful people. It doesn't matter who the other person is because this is about who we are.

We protect the dignity of others. (that is really hard when someone else appears to be deliberately offensive)

We do everything with integrity.

I have heard in days of old we we equated virtues with strength. I am afraid I can be quite obnoxious when I think I am being virtuous. This brings me to a Bahi'a person who created a system for teaching virtues. She introduces her program by explaining it is not enough to teach what a child is doing wrong. We must also teach how to do it right. This education is essential to our liberty and democracy and our future.

In some cases I would use 'to err is human,' in other cases my responses, actions, decisions have never become acceptable to me. I would respond differently if I had the chance again. 'We learn from our mistakes,' can be a very bitter pill, even though it's true. — universeness

I believe old age is purgatory. My worst mistakes came at a time of confusion. I expected a Dick and Jane reality and that is not what I got. When my marriage ended I was totally confused and unsure of myself. I had no basis for good judgment during this time because I lost the structure of my life. I read somewhere it is not uncommon for women in that situation to return to the mentality of puberty. When you have freedom but don't know how to use it.

I am very concerned about our justice system which is more a system of revenge. Only in a few places can convicts get an education even though we know the classics can turn people's lives around.
I don't think we are focusing enough on how important a good family and education are to the children. Being prepared for a technological society is not equal to being prepared for life and it is a terrible reality that we are failing our children and so they are failing. Some of us fail in more serious ways than others, and I hurt for some of the convicts who were pen pals long before the internet forums. One of them told me he knew his life was spinning out of control, and he was glad to be removed from the streets because he thought our "correction system" would prepare him for life. Instead, he was left uneducated and punished and not prepared to do any better. I really hurt for him, but also for myself, because I remember the confusion I went through.

I really like Cicero who believed we are programmed to do the right thing but we do not always know what is the right thing. He said when we know the right thing we are compelled to do it. Unfortunately, that is not always true. Fortunes have been built on doing the wrong thing and when science revealed the problem, they protected their fortunes by denying the science, and I don't think they feel bad about that. I think there are circumstances that lead us in the wrong direction, such as slavery, or selling tobacco or oil products. Ouch, what can be done to increase better decision-making?

I have always found you to be more open and not restricted to 'my own experience, observation and understanding of human behaviour.' I hope I am too. I don't like the term 'versions of truth'. I accept different observers can report different emphasis or aspects of truths, about what they observed from their reference frame, but those are part of the same truth imo, only the different frames of reference, create the badly termed 'versions,' of the same underlying truth.
It's the never observed from any reference frame, 'versions of truth' (lies), that folks such as maga evanhellicals and other such fanatics, peddle, that bother me most. I think the word fanatic should be applied more accurately. — universeness

How do we get at the truth?! Damn if we could identify the truth perhaps we could resolve our problems.

Seriously, I believe humans are capable of good reasoning based on truth, but I also think that requires an education that we are not getting.

Yep, The good the bad and the ugly, all claim to be working in accordance with the will of their chosen god or gods. :roll: From good folks like Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, to bad influencers like shamen, witch doctors, druids, popes, priests, imams and rabbis. all the way to ugly horrors like Hitler and Jack the ripper. — universeness

I am so glad you see that.

Have you ever done something you knew was wrong? What did you do to make that acceptable to you?

I could imagine myself being a suicide bomber when I was communicating with a Palestinian and an Egyptian in a forum. I saw their point of view and felt strongly that Zionism was intolerable and must be stopped. I wrote a letter to the editor opposing Zionism and men called me. One even cried as he thanked me for that letter. They were worried about my safety as they had bad experiences with organized Zionism. Thankfully I have not lived in the region under the power of Zionism, so I was not moved to act on my thoughts other than communicate a different point of view about Zionism and what it has done to Palestinians.

The problem isn’t someone’s particular spiritual or religious belief so much as the psychological stability of the person, and their empathy and the ability to see outside of their own ‘bubble’ (as the link you provided refers to). — 0 thru 9

Socrates said it is most important to know ourselves, to be aware of what we think and why we think what we think. What is our "story". I use the word "story" because of how that word is presented in a set of CDs about communication. Our story is not just what we tell ourselves about ourselves but also what we tell ourselves about "those people". Our stories determine our behavior unless we are aware of them and question them. What you just called being able to see outside of our own bubble.

Right now the US is supporting another war and the reporting on the cause of the war and what is happening is very one-sided and to my horror that is all some people know of the latest conflict. There is no reasoning, only emotional reaction. I can not tolerate discussing what is happening because I too am being reactionary. They are reacting to the propaganda and I am reacting to their ignorance (ignoring the facts) and beyond that their stupidity, and unwillingness to expand on what they think they know. So I would say there is a problem with our strong emotions and struggle to remain rational. Right now I would vote for someone I thought I would never vote for because he disapproves of the US getting involved with other people's wars. The only good thing I can see in that man. It is mind-blowing how our decisions can change and how much we are willing to give up, if one thing disturbs us enough. At least I seriously question my own sanity and knowledge.

But what in our lives brings us to do this, to question what we think we know and our own reaction? For me, I know it is the books I have read and the information I seek in an effort to be a better human being.
This just is not so for most people. They are not prepared to question themselves and seek more information than the information "authority" gives them. I would say my father was right. People do not want to think. That makes them pretty mindless followers. Now tell them to be patriotic and that God wills them to conquer evil and you can have a war. Mind you, everyone believes that war is for good reason and they are being very good human beings as they give their lives to the cause. They would be highly insulted if they were criticized. Men go to war for good reasons and their humanity, a willingness to sacrifice for others, is at a high point. We can not resolve the problem if we do not understand this.

This is true of one man with an automatic rifle in a mall, gunning down "those people" or a mob breaking into the Capitol. Education for technology increases the likelihood of people being narrow-minded and reactionary. One of my WWII books declares Germany was paranoid and it explains paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control. This leads to a police state and war as people do their best to be the best they can be.

If we take a character like Alexander the butcher. He, it seems, wanted to 'conquer the world' and impose the Macedonian/Greek notion of what civilisation was and create a human world that lived the way dictated by Alex and his cronies. Of course, the entire world as we know it today was not accessible for Alex and his mob. — universeness

I wish I had more time!! I just read about preparing the young to be warriors for my post above and immediately I see a failure to see life from a different point of view when one assumes he has the right to conquer the world. That seems to come with our cultural heritage and was made worse with religion and entering wars believing that is God's will.

I think that our culture (being a culture, as well as being a civilization, as well as being/becoming a global civilization) shares with smaller societies the drive to spread its ideas and memes among its members, and even to spread its beliefs beyond its borders.
This informational imprinting on a child starts right after birth.
As noted above, the ever-present and ever-growing media presence is a powerful teacher, perhaps equal to (or surpassing) parental and family ‘teaching’. — 0 thru 9

I had a hard time wrapping my mind around "memes". That is a complete abstract. They can not exist without the humans infected by them. I could not grasp a firm boundary for the word. However, I totally get the importance of the "story". We have shared stories and private ones. Joseph Campbell said mythology is very important and when we do not have a shared mythology we will make up our own, using the people in our lives and the characters for our private mythology.

In the past, that media presence would have been the clan's storyteller. Different cultural stories of creation fascinate me. It seems to me those civilizations that have creation stories that begin with a conflict of the gods were more apt to develop technology. Those with a creator or Earth Mother and no conflict between the gods seem less apt to develop technology.

There were tribes that raised their young to be aggressive warriors. Like Sparta, this begins the day a child is born. There were tribes that focused on compassion the opposite of the warrior mentality. I claim the change in education, in 1958 has led to the violence we are seeing today and a very serious cultural clash. A cultural clash results from people holding different stories.

https://openpediatricmedicinejournal.com/contents/volumes/V8/TOPEDJ-8-1/TOPEDJ-8-1.pdf

Public education is the most important factor in defending democracy because only when the principles of democracy are learned do they become functional memes.

Last night I watched a very interesting Public Broadcasting show about how technology changed our culture. With your help in understanding memes, I now get where that technology can function as a meme. The development of different forms of energy has been a major culture changer.

Wars are also extremely important to cultural change.

Not done with the reply but I am out of time.

That really depends on so many factors. There are many bad teachers, impatient teachers, 'moody' teachers, authoritarian nutjobs, slightly psychotic teachers. — universeness

:lol: That is very true. I was traumatized by a couple of them. My mother attempted to get me out of a class where I clashed with the teacher and the school said students are expected to learn how to get along with their teachers. Fine, I refused to do any assignments and had to repeat the class during summer school. I am sure everyone has such a story and so it is being a human. What really hurt was my time volunteering in a school and witnessing a couple of boys treated very badly! That led to one of them getting the extra help he needed, but nothing was done about the other boy and I was dismissed and lost my position in the organization that sponsored volunteers.

Oh dear, I thought of another terrible story involving my granddaughter and today I would take that one to court. I am sure many low-income people are less likely to pursue the legal means they have. And on to that granddaughter's son, my great-grandson, his life is being ruined as he struggles to do online classes with no help other than what an online teacher can give him. This is back to my point. Computers can be a useful tool but they can not replace a teacher.

True democratic socialism has never been successfully implemented as a national governance, anywhere today or in history. Many attempts have been made but none have been successful so far.
To nurture people and not profit.
To prioritise cooperation and not competition.
To act as the political equivalent of secular humanism.
To control the means of production, distribution and exchange, for the benefit of all and not just elites.
To govern by the democratically obtained consent of all stakeholders, and to continuously consult the population you represent at all levels.
To govern openly and accept all established checks and balances. — universeness

That is all about culture and never in the history of humanity have we been able to do so much for so many people. Never in the history of humanity have so many people lived so long and this is a game changer! Human consciousness at age 70 is totally different from what it is in our younger years. The need for universal medicine greatly increases but we need to work on the understanding that medical care is for everyone because it is very likely everyone will live long enough to need it. The service jobs have greatly increased with older people needing help. I think it is a hard shift from an Industrial economy to a service economy increasing numbers of long-lived people are pushing that shift and I am not sure if that can work.

We have great wealth but not the experience of living with it. We need to increase our understanding of economics to make good decisions about economics. Is supporting the war Industry better for than economy than say truly affordable housing with services for older people and excellent child care for all children?

What does 'be social' towards other people, mean to you?

It means all children are nurtured and live in security so that they grow up to be confident and excited about what they can do in life because of their developed interests and talents. That was the goal of public education before education for technology completely dominated education decisions. We added to that goal housing assistance but then failed to adequately fund that housing. We added food assistance and free lunches in schools and I think we are doing a fair job of this. Oregon scores high on medical care but our medical system may be breaking down because the for prophet system has some serious problems and I think we could do a thread on just this.

And my love, I must run and am late--- I am breaking down as too much is demanded of me. I hope you all carry on and know I don't mean to ignore any of this great community we are developing. :heart:

What follows is a description of a possible intersection of our Culture and the Individual, especially when looking for a ‘monkey wrench’ so to speak (that gut feeling that something in our way of life is somewhat out of order).
(At least, this is how I see it… that is, an extremely simplified overview lol). — 0 thru 9

I want to respond before I forget what I want to say. :lol: Representatives from around the world are gathering to discuss the possibility of a nuclear war and if we might end that threat permanently. In a completely different forum I am told history shows that wars are unavoidable. The proof is there have always been wars. Okay, when I read history I get the impression that age 40 used to be old age, and not many lived that long. That in a male's 40 years, war was expected and many males spent their lifetime preparing for war and engaging in war. How is this different from living with the fear of a nuclear war? To live a lifetime expecting to die young from disease, an accident, famine, or war may be good for preparing for a good death, but how about preparing for a good life?

Our minds are among the most powerful things in the known universe. — 0 thru 9

I love that argument!

Turn absolutely all the Earth into humans. This land is our land, for it belongs to us.
Who else is going to claim it? Squirrels? Giraffes? Honeybees? — 0 thru 9

The cockroaches.

But the pleasurable surge of power that was the reward for total domination didn’t need a college education to be experienced and enjoyed. — 0 thru 9

That is an interesting point, but the most successful would pass on their benefits and knowledge to their heirs and then follows the notion that these people are superior by birth, and then their status becomes a huge benefit. The idea that this superiority is about who has advantages and who does not is just beginning to enter our consciousness. This is potentially a point of consciousness transformation that is compatible with democracy.

So our Civilization imprints each of its members with the ‘gameplan’ or the ‘program’. — 0 thru 9

How is this imprinting done? Warning, the laboring class and the professional class raise their children differently. The laboring class is focused on obeying while the professional class will focus more on leadership roles.

I don't think the difference between classes was that great when Abraham Lincoln left the family farm and moved to the city where he learned to be a lawyer, as the difference between classes today. At the end of WWII, the GI Bill gave the men who gave military service a huge advantage of a college education when that education almost guaranteed upward economic mobility and they were also given low-interest loans for homes. These benefits helped White Males more than women or people of color but it was a move in the direction of democracy and women and people of color are beginning to benefit from the principles of democracy, so we have increased the number of advantaged citizens but now the gap between the advantaged and disadvantaged is greater than it ever was.

Studies have demonstrated that a person will resist only so long doing something they consider wrong or useless, when given negative feedback like pain or disapproval.
We are not machines after all, though sometimes we desperately try to be. — 0 thru 9

For sure adversity can destroy the human spirit if that is all a growing child knows because then the growing child will be focused on avoiding pain rather than on improving his/her life. That means your next sentence is not true! Especially not females and people of color when reality marginalized them.

But most likely, the foundational message will be remarkably similar: “go along with the civilizational program, and you will be rewarded!” — 0 thru 9

I am so sorry but I am out of time. Thank you for giving us so much to think about and to talk about.

Hi everyone- I am listening to the public broadcast channel discussion of nuclear weapons and I am highly emotional right now. The best way I can think of to deal with this is to say I love humanity and I thank you all for coming to our discussion and working so hard on how to make our world a better place and hopefully, a safer place no longer threatened by wars. Kim just said we need the courage to fight for peace. Can we do that?

Notice how you defer to religious authority. That's being religious. That's not being spiritual. — praxis

Please explain. Which religion do I authorize to be the authority?
Exactly what is spirituality? For me, it is a feeling. What is for you? Is spirituality a feeling?

I think all social animals have a hierarchy. I think it is important to honor our elders. I think it is foolish for the working hands on a ship to mutiny unless they have someone who knows as much as the captain.

How good are you at thinking paradoxically? :wink:

What you are saying here appears to be close to democratic socialism perhaps?
Which is quite fine in my book. Just wanted to get your feedback on that.
Now for a country like the USA to get a TRUE democracy joined with a TRUE socialism is the difficult part.
It’s difficult because the Elite (rhymes with excrete) the 1% and their servants and wannabes are pulling with all their mighty might in the opposite direction. — 0 thru 9

I do not like labels and I know nothing about socialism because I ignore labels. I also do not pay attention to human names but what a person does will get my attention. I don't have a head for individuals but perhaps a universalness? How do I say? My head asks where is humanity going and what is the best way to get there? This is not about me and you, but us. Does that make any sense?

universeness favors socialism and perhaps the two of you can agree on what it is and share that with me. I understand democracy as individuals having liberty and justice. Democracy enables people to be the best they can be, but autocracy prevents that. In an autocracy, you do not dare be insubordinate! this mentality prevents people from making their best contribution and it can lead to serious economic problems because it means Industrial problems do not get the full benefit of having humans who enjoy doing the right thing for the good of all.

I am concerned that socialism may require government control and that disempowers individuals.

As for the elite intentionally protecting the autocratic status quo, yes, I believe that is so. We do not have a good understanding of democracy. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.

Whoo I just realized how paradoxical my thinking is. We are a small part of something much bigger than ourselves, yet we are individuals with liberty and justice.

I have spent my career in Computing science and AI can be a fantastic assist to humanity, in all the problems they face, on a day to day basis, both individually and as a community.
In my experience, 'expert systems,' have helped our children's education, advance, more than (or at least as much as) direct interaction with people/teachers/school systems.
Absolutely yes, yes, yes! Athena, AI can be used to spread fake news and AI can be used to deceive and manipulate. But please remember, that is only currently done via nefarious humans, not nefarious mecha. I don't know if a future AGI/ASI would become anti-biological life, such as anti-human life. That has been a long time discussion on TPF and is currently a main discussion happening on-line and in the global media today. So far, the only evidence I have encountered that suggests projected mecha might turn against us, is in sci-fi productions.
The warnings recently stated by those in the field of AI, regarding projected AI advances, seem to me, to be currently concerned more about how some nefarious humans might manipulate AI advances, rather than how AI might become independently malevolent towards us. Do You agree? — universeness

Absolutely not possible that a computer program can be more important to a child's learning than the teacher. What motivates us to learn is not a computer program but our human contacts. Oh, if you have an anti-social, angry young man, he may delight in using the computer to find out how to make bombs, but that is the most important education for a child. I think directing the student to use the computer rather than interact with the student because there are too many students in the room, could lead to a problem.

Last night on the news was an interview with the woman who wrote "Your Face Belongs to US". Face recognition technology is not widespread yet, but it has been used to direct security to prevent a person from entering places. Imagine someone like Trump with that technology. It does not matter that AI would or would not decide to do something evil because the humans who use it, gain the power to do evil. It does not take more than a handful of people to do a lot of evil, like spread the lie the vote was corrupted and the country must be protected by those who fight against the evil of corruption because good people can so easily be led to do the wrong thing.

I am not worried about AI being anti-human. I am worried about us being anti-human. Thinking computers are superior to humans or can be, is dangerously anti-human. We are not born knowing everything in our lifetimes we can make terrible mistakes as we stumble through life. However, I think the only way things can better is for us to truly love each other. If the God of Abraham didn't have favorite people and if this belief did not go with a Satan and demons, and believing in curses and give us a totally false story of creation, religion might be a good thing. I think we need to work on a good religion, not AI that can give a human terrible power.

Socrates and Plato were strong on us learning morality before we held the power to govern.