What "duty is a noble lie"? Duty is a concept and it is as real as we make it. You know, a concept, an abstract idea, not a tangible reality that either exists or does not exist like a broken vase is either broken or it is not broken.

It, whatever the concept may be, is as we make it, or as we see it, and there is nothing that can not be trashed. However, trashing something such as the notion of duty does not make that something a lie. It just means the person who does not enjoy a sense of duty does not have that experience. Same as one person can enjoy a setting sun while another person may be a sourpuss and have no sense of pleasure in watching the sunset.

A leader's duty is to convey the concept of duty and explain how to put it into action so that the sense of duty is experienced and felt. This is true of all virtues. They must be named before we can be conscious of them and then we must act on the virtue to experience its fuller meaning.

Personally, I love having a sense of duty and I would make knowledge of duty and virtues part of education. There is no god that makes it as it is. We make it as it is. The concepts are as real as we make them. Or we can make everything really bad but why would anyone intentionally do that?

And democracies can make huge mistakes, don't think otherwise. But you can learn from mistakes. The best example is the UK and it's Brexit. Just ask the British how well that has gone or look how popular the UKIP is now there. Brexit was such a huge disaster for the UK that all the euro-sceptics in the EU countries have really toned down their criticism. — ssu

I am sorry I am very aware of what happens in other countries. I do not any British people to ask about Brexit. I know US citizens are strongly opposed to one world government because they fear that would diminish their power to do as we do. Hum, that could make a delicious topic. Why is it so important that we have the freedom to do as want? What is gained if we give that up?

When it comes to learning from history the lesson that dominates my life is Hilter and the power of his charisma and how I see the same things happening in the US. The US adopted the German models of government and education for technology for military and industrial purposes and it is curious that we would imitate Germany and deny the changes in our culture, economics, and politics.

Every child learned of the American heroes and the American mythology that made us a united nation and a very moral nation. Today, Christians have taken credit for our democracy and we think God wants us to engage in wars against evil nations. And I have no idea what Trump and his followers think "Make America Great again" means. Without education for democracy, that is never going to happen and Trump is doing the same as Hitler did and his popularity keeps increasing as the legal battle with him continues. For sure Trump and his followers are in favor of isolating the US from the rest of the world.

Putting flowers on a street unites nobody; — Vera Mont

It makes me aware and includes me in the mourning even if it may not include you. I very much like the bicycle that is permanently on the corner where a bicyclist was killed. It keeps waking me up to the awareness of bicyclers and the need to be alert. And for the biker's loved ones, I am sure that memorial gives them comfort and that one life is not completely gone from our consciousness. I wish we would do more to remember the people worth remembering. At least one school memorialized a janitor who had been a part of the school for many years. I like that the memory of a janitor was honored.

Many truths in our lives are not shared truths because our individual experiences are not the same. Clearly how I experience life is not the same as others experience life. I think I have more of the forbidden spiritual experience. When I was young, during that time of the month, I would become hyper-sensitive, as though being extended beyond my physical form. I think there is a hormonal element to how we experience life.

Logic is great, but it doesn't replace self-awareness. — Vera Mont

How can self-awareness be increased? I think this needs to go with the awareness of others too. Racism blows me away because it is such an expression of unawareness of the other human being.

More every day. There are lots of books out on alternative living; there are intentional communities based on a different principle; there is a tiny house movement, people learning to do things for themselves, eating local food, conserving water, pooling resources, teaching one another -- there's lots going on that you never hear about, because somebody doing something sensible is not as scary or tearjerky and therefore not as newsworthy as somebody deliberately running other people down with an SUV and buying fresh food at the farmers' market is not as emotionally cathartic as turning $15 worth of cut flowers into garbage on a sidewalk.*

(* It's a pet peeve of mine, all those bouquets, teddy bears and stupid mylar balloons piled up at the scene of every minor atrocity.) — Vera Mont

I really like what you said until the last thought. As I see it, those flowers, teddy bears, and balloons unite all of us. It is shared mourning and I am glad to be part of that. But I have rather odd notions. I enjoy feeling connected with the whole of humanity. I nurture this by learning as much as I can about history and the mothers around the world. Men, I think identify with their work, while traditionally women have identified as the caregivers. That is a kind of oneness that perhaps men do not share unless they do so as soldiers. The Veterans Administration takes care of its own and they have always done so. A few Roman generals made history by assuring those who fought with them were well cared for. While us women folk take action to assure all children are fed when they go to school. I think men are more willing to cough up the money for veterans but if it is women and children who need our help, that is socialism- a very bad thing.

Sorry, universeness got me hung up on wondering about how we identify with our gender. If I am off topic it is his fault. :wink:

Hum, culture is critical but who defines the culture? How does our gender and religion play into the culture?

Back to what you said, it gives me hope. There are as many good things happening as bad things, and maybe those bad things will pressure us to do more of the good things. :grin:

Yes, I agree that we see some things quite differently. I think you assign some value to that which may be labelled mysticism, the transcendent, the numinous, the esoteric, the 'spiritual' or perhaps even the the theosophistic. — universeness

:brow: You say what?! How do we know truth? :chin: I think that might require the scientific process, but not all things can be processed scientifically because they are personal experiences and feelings. Then we have to rely on communication and reasoning. Our technological society is running very short on the ability or willingness to do that.

I am hoping, that understanding Daniel Kahneman's explanation of two different thinking modes will improve our ability to reason.

I am really curious about why you associate my writing with mysticism? For sure there are many things that mystify me but I don't think that is what you mean. As for numinous, I do enjoy spirituality but I do not think of myself as separate from spiritual reality. The spiritual feeling arises in me when I walk along the river or sit on the beach. As the ancient Greeks, I think beauty is very important to us and good music. I think we need to nurture our spiritual being because our mental and physical health depends on it. An evening of watching police and forensic shows is not my idea of a good way to take care of myself and I have come across the science that says so. :lol: Unlike Socrates, I do think I know a few things, but what I know is very little compared to what I do not know.

I am sorry Athena but I could not disagree with you more, on this important point.
Ignorant people, defined as 'people who have learned very little in their life,' are people who are manipulated and abused by vile notions such as 'sin.' This word is commonly defined as:
"an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

For all atheists, there is no divine law. It's existence is an utter lie and the best evidence for that, is divine hiddenness. In comparison with the crimes of god, as described in the bible or the crimes of characters like Mohammed as described in the Quran, I am totally sinless. I am convinced I am sinless anyway, as it is not possible to perform an immoral act considered to be a transgression against non-existent divine law. — universeness

Ah yes, but what is divine law? Is something bad because the gods say it is bad or do the gods say is bad because it is bad?

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Divine_law
Divine law is any body of law that is perceived as deriving from a transcendent source, such as the will of God or gods – in contrast to man-made law or to ...
‎Citations · ‎References[/quote]

It is not so because the gods make it so, it is so because of logos, and to know logos is to know science and even the gods had to surrender to logos. Now if you want to prove to yourself you can fly close to the sun with your wings made of wax and feathers, you can do so, but know this, the heat of the sun will melt the wax and you will fall to the earth and die. This is not because the gods make it so, but because that is the way the universe works. Nothing can rile me faster than denying the reality of universal law or equating universal law with the gods. That denial is to not know reality. Go ahead and fly into the sun and test it for yourself. No amount of praying or burning candles and chanting will change logos. It is what it is.

I try not to anthropomorphize nature in such ways, although I do fall into these old traps often.[/qhote] No, you do not. I am not saying what you think I have said. Thanks to Christianity everyone interprets what I say with the Christian belief in God and our power to control God with our pleas and efforts to please Him. You are interpreting what you think, not what I am saying. You put that false notion into my words, not me.
— universeness

Nature has no gender or sex. It is very important to understand the workings of our planet, for the sake of the survival of our species. We both agree on that I think. You just choose to invoke more 'esoteric,' anthropomorphised images to do so, compared to me.

Okay, you got on that one. I do love my relationship with the Mother Goddess. I am she, you know. Hum, I don't know what words to use to explain my pleasure of thinking in Mother Goddess terms, but I wonder if men get this wonderful feeling when they identify with a male God? However, you are right that I do not think of the Goddess as a manifest reality. I am strongly matriarchical, and when I speak of the Mother Goddess, I am thinking of values and my own identity. Historically she did not punish her children as the God of Abraham punishes his children. She also does not help them. She does her own thing and leaves her children to do our own thing, and if we eat poison, or destroy the planet, oh well, she isn't going to clean up the mess we make, so we darn well better figure how things work and do the right thing. That is very, very important to me, and blending what I think with superstition can make me a little hysterical! Failing to know truth and do things right can have very bad consequences.

Much of the world, including the US, has its head so far up its own ass in denial, you have to wonder whether the species is viable at all. — Vera Mont

I can't believe you said that! :rofl: Well, yes, that is what I was thinking.

So do I. But Americans simply have to understand that the present system can totally change, and actually quite quickly. The naive thing is to think that it's the Presidential election where you could have someone not being either a Democrat or a Republican that can change things. Nope, change starts from the communities and the states and also the federal level. And it's possible. — ssu

I hope I understand you correctly. Before things will change, we need to know there is another way. How many people do you think are aware of other ways of doing things than the way they have always done them. Maybe especially so in the US the belief that the way we do things is the best possible way so their minds are totally closed to knowing anything else is possible. Making matters worse is that increasingly people are feeling disenfranchised and they believe they are powerless to make things be as they think they should be. Their world is very small as they know only their own experience of life and in defense against rapid changes they have no power over, they intentionally isolate themselves or believe they are part of a political party and go along with their party without thinking.

I don't know what I think until I start writing. I am not sure but I think circumstances have us in a bad place right now. We need strong leaders who help us see there is a better way and that we can make a difference. There have been periods of rapid change in history and the unrest and uncertainty led to chaos until adjustments are made. Hum, :chin: a time or two civilizations have collapsed because they could not make necessary adjustments.

I think humans need to utterly reject that stupid term from theism. Sin does not exist!!!!!!!
If a person does not accept the existence of god(s) then it is not possible to go against it morally.
If humans break any aspect of secular moral code or human law then they have broken our laws or went against our moral codes, not non-existent gods. Godless humans cannot sin!
In my exchange with Vera Mont regarding the love label, it becomes clear that it's an over-burdened label. I think you have acted often, in support of the well-being of strangers and that shows that you have a great capacity for compassion towards your fellow human beings. You should be awarded the NCA (if it existed,) in my opinion. — universeness

Thank you for your argument. I see things differently. :lol: Sometimes I think I was an alien who got stuck on Earth because my UFO had mechanical problems.

I have zero problem with thinking sin is a matter of ignorance. I am out of time. Mostly my thinking on this matter is Cicero and when I get time I will find Cicero quotes that I believe are essential to understanding morals and democracy.

Ignorant people can and do sin. Their ignorance is a lack of consciousness because when they know they are doing wrong, their conscience bugs them. We are programmed to do the right thing and to feel bad when we don't but most of the time we are ignorant of why we should do this and not that. We really do not understand the importance of truth!

We are destroying our planet and sooner or later we will have to deal with the truth. I think most of the world is having to deal with the truth, but they are in denial, while they flee floods, hurricanes, and fires.

Logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. A better understanding of God than what mythology gives us. Mother Nature will do things her way and we better figure out how she does things and learn to live with her. Truth is very important and so is living in harmony with nature very important.

What I think would clear up a lot would be that the duopoly of the two parties would be finally broken. But Americans simply believe in the impossibility of the "third party" and that I think is the biggest problem. Easiest way would be if both the Dems and GOP would separate into different parties themselves. — ssu

I disagree that is impossible to put an end to the two party system. Simple adopt the Australian voting system.

The Australian electoral system comprises the laws and processes used for the election of members of the Australian Parliament and is governed primarily by the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918. The system presently has a number of distinctive features including compulsory enrolment; compulsory voting; majority-preferential instant-runoff voting in single-member seats to elect the lower house, the House of Representatives; and the use of the single transferable vote proportional representation system to elect the upper house, the Senate.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-member_district — Wikipedia

I especially like being able to vote for several candidates by numbering your preferences, so if the first person you vote for does not win, your vote goes to the next one. For years I would have voted for people who are neither democrat nor republican if that didn't mean risking the worst person winning the election. I think most of us in the US are voting against the other guy, not for someone. I hate our system. My state is testing the Ranked-choice voting.

Ranked-choice voting in the United States

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ranked-choice_votin...
Ranked-choice voting (RCV) can refer to one of several ranked voting methods used in some cities and states in the United States. The term is not strictly ...
‎Use at state and federal levels · ‎Use at local levels · ‎California · ‎Massachusetts — wikipedia

That's a longish stride from moral and immoral speech. I was there when it was considered highly immoral to mention homosexuality and perfectly acceptable to feature blackface in a performance. Morality is as suspect in my book as brotherly love. But I think we can agree on a standard of public discourse - so long as everyone has an equal share in decisions-making. — Vera Mont

I love your argument.:heart: What is going on here? In other forums arguments are terrible but here the arguments are so mentally stimulating and fun! I guess maybe that is because the people who are here understand the limits of a point of view and enjoy questioning what they think as much as I do.

I totally get the change in morality and that is why we must make these arguments without attacking each other. The progressive mind expects change, whereas the conservative mind may resist change and can not explore why yesterday this __________ was okay and today it is not.

Okay about homosexuality, sex was taboo. I don't care what a person's preferences were, sex was for studs who could be manly and force themselves on women, and a good woman was a pure woman, untouched by a man. Bad girls did it but not good girls. Oh my, we had so many sexual problems back in the day and in some countries, the sexual issues are still terrible!

So how is talking about our sexuality okay today? Power. Does anyone want to talk about what power has to do with our sexuality? We could create a thread for that and a thread for our changing morality about blackface entertainment. Moral, is a matter of cause and effect. When the consequences are good it is moral. If the consequences are bad it is immoral. What does this have to do with democracy?

In one of Kurt Vonnegot's novels, that I don't have time to look up right now, he says "What the world needs in not more love but more common decency." — Vera Mont

Would that include all media decision-making?

I do not think our freedom of speech means the freedom to say anything we want because it would include immoral speech. A moral is a matter of cause and effect. If the effect is bad, it is immoral. A lack of morals leads to anarchy and that is not tolerable so it becomes a police state.

The only way to have a moral society that is not does have authority over the people, is education for good moral judgment. That is education that transmits a culture where liberty is not harmful. The education teaches, that we defend our liberty by obeying the laws and if we think the law is wrong, it is our duty to take the action to change the law.

So, you agree then that getting completely rid of the house of lords would be a good first step in starting to improve the way UK politics works?
— universeness
My point is that WHEN you give any stakeholder status in the upper house, be it as now the remnants of the aristocracy and retired politicians, or in your proposal "important stakeholders", once decided, the elected stakeholders will fight for their right to have their position in the house. Even if they aren't important anymore. They will be against change as the aristocracy has been in reality. Hence you need elections on just who are stakeholders. And what are "important stakeholders". For starters. — ssu

Oh my goodness, I think it is high time for the US to clean up its Congress and get real about aging. I do not see how our present system can not be corrupt! Our presidency is limited to two terms and certainly, that should apply to all of those sitting in elected offices. This should also go with stronger rules for serving the people rather than serving one's self. Kick out the Industrial and foreign lobbyist and their gifts. We should not be ruled by those who can be bought.

Why do you choose to disconnect, empathy, and altruism as facets of love. — universeness

I love your question. I love it when I have to question what I think and feel.

I don't propose to answer for Athena, but for myself: because "love" is such a loaded, booby-trapped word. It evokes sentimentality, hypocrisy, Christian doctrine and a whole a passel of emotional stuff with which I don't want to be lumbered. I have compassion for people I find quite unpalatable and for animals I would never want to encounter in the wild. That empathy, or sense of rightness or whatever it is is quite distinct from my personal relationships in which affection plays a major part. Also, I consider some constraints on my freedom, some obligations of time an effort, as a civic duty: the price of living in a society that affords me protection and support. — Vera Mont

That is a pretty good explanation of why I want to avoid "love".

There came a time in my life when I realized respect is much more important than love. Abusive people can "love" those they abuse and this would not happen if they respected the other person and didn't feel justified in being abusive. I got this from a couple of guys I lived with and their military understanding of respect. Somehow I had lost awareness of the reasoning for respect that I grew up with. Perhaps it was all those dopey songs about love and hormones that led to intimate behaviors and our Puritan thinking about morality. Like it isn't sinful if it is love, right? So we take the abuse and take the abuse because we "love" the abuser. :vomit: Only humans will stay in bad relationships because of the concept of love.

Compassion is also important. The golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you. I would not have taken in the man I took in last winter, except, I thought that could be me and how awful would be if I could not figure out how to get housing or get assistance and no one helped me. By the way, this man had a major stroke and is now in long-term care, unable to communicate or get out of bed.

Back to love. Love is a feeling and feelings change and change. We should not base our decisions on our emotions.

???? So why do you choose to help strangers who seem unable to help themselves? — universeness

I love your question. I question myself and realize I regret not helping some people in the past because they are as deserving as those I have helped lately. I think the difference in my judgment is the result of having more physical and memory problems myself. This awareness of how hard it can be for physically or mentally impaired people (including children) comes from experience and this is lacking in a young population. When we have never experienced a problem, we expect others to do what we can do. We expect a lot of children! Perhaps our expectations of ourselves and others are too high?

I help others because it is the right thing to do. You know, the bottom line is, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". It is not about who they are and I don't want what I do taken as a personal relationship thing. I see myself more like a nurse who takes care of a wound and then moves on to the next patient, than a loving person.

Emotions change and change, but being virtuous hopefully is not so changeable. I think we need to do things that are the right thing to do. In the 60s we said, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". This is the only way to have a better life. The better we make life, the greater the chances are of us having good lives. That is reason, right?

This is a really promising group as well guys:
Citizens Network
Maybe they would particularly help support the work you do Athena.
This is their North American sub-group:
Citizens Network, North America — universeness

Thank you universes. The link seems concerned with love and I am not into love but you did inspire me to Google for an organization that is about civics education. I signed up for their newsletter. It is hard for me to stay focused but I think what concerns me most is protecting our democracy with education.

https://www.civiced.org/

recently became a member of a UK group called 'Compass,' who describe themselves as politically progressive and seek common ground/cause, regardless of which current political party you support.
I joined them because of their strong stance and efforts in support of UBI (and their stance on many other issues). I thought you both might find the following 'New Settlement,' campaign, hopeful, in the sense that, 'there are groups out there,' who imo, are trying to make life for the average human, a better experience. What do you think of: — universeness

That information goes with the book "The Necessary Revolution- How Individuals and Organizations Are Working Together to Create a Sustainable World." By Peter Senge, Bryan Smith, Nina Kruschwita, Joe Laur, Sara Schley.

In that book, there is an explanation that goes well with an understanding of the Democratic Model for Industry. Include everyone in the task of solving problems. This has made the impossible possible because some Industries have made big promises such as conserving water, that they had no idea how they would keep. By turning the problem over to everyone the company got the benefit of group consciousness, the very thing that makes Democracy better than authoritarian Nations. Well, it helps to have education for Democracy to make it work the way it should.

Knowing what can be done, such as organizing for world war one by relying on schools to teach students necessary technological skills for the first time in our history, and a frame of mind the Spartans would admire, I totally believe we can turn things around. But we need respected leaders and respected reporters who can get us working together. Having media that caters to popular opinion and sensationalism, is a disaster and I don't think those problems will change without education for democracy and being united with shared values.

Having the actual housing so people can experience that housing and see how it is working, is more powerful than just words, so kudos for that advancement. I now wonder if something like that is happening in my community. Participating with others in coming up with solutions would be better than sitting alone at home wringing my hands and feeling totally powerless.

I generally agree with your sentiment there Athena, especially when talking about the relationship with medicine and death. My personal opinion on the matter is that death has become too medicalised, and this striving of society towards prolonging life at all costs is generally detrimental to those involved. Planning death, in my opinion, does not necessarily mean shortening life, but it does allow people to create their own narrative around death, and have more autonomy over how they die. — AlexMcGram

Thank you so much for that agreement. Added to my concern is the difference money makes. If I could afford retirement living that cost a few thousand dollars monthly, I would be assured of having the best life money can provide. People I know can not afford that and they are struggling to manage without help as they lose their strength, energy, eyesight, and hearing. I am mindful of what I eat and I swim almost daily and work out in a gym to rebuild the strength I have lost because of inactivity. I am fighting to maintain my independence. This is about quality of life, right? But-

I keep thinking especially of one elderly neighbor who did not like family holidays when her family insisted she be present even though she was losing her vision and could not hear well enough to participate in discussions. She was an amazing woman but I do not want to experience life in that way because even though she was in the room with family, she felt isolated.

I cared for people with Alzheimer's and ALS. I do not want to lose my independence and this is especially a problem for those without money. We leave severely disabled people on the streets or isolated in apartments that get filthy because someone has lost the ability to maintain a home. They have called for help but there are not enough people nor enough money to meet the demand for help. Then we comfort ourselves by believing the homeless people want to be homeless and it probably is their own fault because of drugs. My Medical Care Provider is a very nice person but she is not in touch with reality. We do not live happily ever after and we might want to take that into consideration.

If we could set the boundaries of how bad is bad enough, we could risk being alive longer than we want but now we get into the fear of the state killing off people who are no longer useful. This is not pleasant to think about but as our numbers increase we may need to think about how to deal with reality. Just ignoring reality is not a solution.

Our deaths affect those who are close to us and possibly the future and perhaps the whole of society that is based on social agreements. Many years ago I contemplated suicide and thought I would have to take others with me so they did not experience the pain of my death, and then I thought I had to take those associated with the people closest to me so they would not experience the pain of the deaths of those closest to me. Like the circle of people I would have to take with me just got bigger and bigger and I realized I could not undo my life. I could not not exist because we are all connected. At which point, I decided I could not take my own life so I better figure out how to make my life the best it can be.

However, this is many years later and my family has agreed euthanasia is okay when we have a condition that will sooner or later end our lives. Now the thought is what is a good life and then when that good life is not possible, what is a good death?

I want to go before I become a burden on others because of something like dementia or amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. I do not want to be blind and deaf and forced to sit through family gatherings because they want to know I am loved. Now this is very problematic because the death would have to happen before it was too late for me to execute my own exit. In Oregon, we have the right to die, but this does not mean we can plan our deaths like we plan a wedding. I wish we could plan our deaths like we plan a wedding. I think the individual's death should be up to the individual and God (whatever god is) and that government should stay out of our final decision. None of us are going to get out of dying. It happens to all of us and what could be more important than how we manage this?

Next problem. I think we should maintain the courage to live as long as we have quality of life and that we should leave an explanation of our death if we so chose to end our lives. Oh, brother, is that a difficult thing to do! At least it is for me. What do I want my last communication with those closest to me to be? This is the future I am thinking about. How will my thoughts and actions affect those I leave behind and their children?

If we had planned deaths might that make it easier to have good closers with everyone concerned? A planned death would mean tieing up all the loose ends and not ending our lives perhaps years earlier than need be in fear that if we wait too long, we will become burdens on others and suffer a long time before we are finally released. What is the good life?

What is a good death? I think everyone I know agrees that means a fast and painless death. Like go to bed happy and just not wake up. How wise is it to deny that to anyone? I am at that time in life where I wonder, do I want all the tests and medicine that is about keeping me alive or should I make peace with my life and death and let nature take its course without doing things to extend my life? In case you miss the point- preventing me from planning my death means making decisions to avoid extending my life.

At least the American military boot industry is thriving! Unfortunately, 'we' have already supplied a great many weapons to the chosen of that other god, A---h, whose will runs contrary, while the blessed of Mao can make their own. — Vera Mont

Perhaps the subject of gods and war would be interesting. I think if we look at all the religions we can see why an education limited to studying one holy book just is not enough. We are being bombard now with the wrongs of our Christian nation and appalling human abuses, and some Muslim countries also have a bad record. I don't know if there ever was a country that could not be found quilty of human violations?

I know such things are tied to culture and that cultures are learned. I would like to know what should people learn and how should that be taught?

Nor has the disparity of wealth. I wonder whether there's a connection. Is it really because a cycle rickshaw operator has six kids to feed that the rivers are poisoned? And do those six kids really use up twice as much of the world's resources as three of Walton's? Is it the extra child soldiers and slaves
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal practice in Africa. Families send their daughters to work for money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life.
that contribute more to glaciers melting, or the trafficking of vast amounts of goods to well-off consumers?
Of the ten biggest strip mines in South and Central America, three are owned by South American interests; the rest belong to investors from Canada, the US, UK, Mexico and Australia. Beef farming is a great investment for North Americans: apparently, there is still 'undeveloped' land in Paraguay, and it won't be wasted on local people eating well. https://www.gatewaytosouthamerica-newsblog.com/cattle-ranching-in-paraguay-an-investors-perspective/ — Vera Mont

Should we talk about education and democracy? How about the good of Christianity? We all know God has favorite people and we are them. What is your problem with this reality? God blesses us because we please him, and it is not our fault the rest of the world is not as pleasing to God. And by gosh, we need to have the military weapons and a base on the moon, so we can do the will the God, and prevent the evil enemies who are jealous of us, from doing anything that might be against the will of God. :wink:

So, don't make that trade. We don't really need oil from Iraq. How many lives has that little transaction cost, so far? How much in money and resources? (That's a bare outline, with no mention of what's been going on behind the arras.)

But Chinese women and Indian children and African men work twice as hard for a tenth of the pay, and their governments, sufficiently lubricated with bribes, are not too fussy about what you spill on the way out. So all the garden gnomes come from China and the American Guild of Gnome Crafters is sleeping on the street. — Vera Mont

Glad you got past my word mistake. That was a dumb mistake. :roll:

I am also glad you seem to know more about the trade problem than most. The reason geologists know a lot about the problem is they are in those countries finding the resources and estimating how much is available so a price for removing them can be established. They study geology because it is interesting to them, and then they get jobs that seem interesting and after they are caught in the web, they gain an understanding of the problems such as the ones you talk about and their conscience begins to eat them up.

I don't think there is anyone to blame for our mass ignorance but if you want to be part of the cure, please spread the knowledge. In the1920s the price of gas was skyrocketing and this was an economic problem. A small article in the back pages of a newspaper warned, "Given our know oil supply and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic trouble and possibly war". The stock market crashed and the world went to war. We are totally ignorant of why this happened.

What can be done about that ignorance? Should someone be held responsible for our mass ignorance? Democrats starting with President Carter have talked about the resource/consumption problem while the oil companies lied to us and especially Republican leaders tell us the lies and maintain the ignorance. What can we do about this?

While the majority in the US seems to disapprove of :gasp: socialism and government subsidizing poorly paid workers but are in favor of subsidizing Industry and keeping the product cheap by keeping labor cheap, we do benefit from cheap labor. We buy the cheap products made by slave labor and put our own Industry out of business. This is how economies have grown. The condition of the working class in Britain was so bad the majority of military-age males were unfit for the military. When Industry was asked to pay higher wages, it argued they could not compete in world markets if they paid the labor more. This began Britians subsiding the poor.

Germany was far ahead of the rest of us with education for technology for everyone, a national pension plan, worker's compensation, and national health insurance. Oil is essential to national defense and Industrial economies and the competition for control of world resources is greater than it has ever been with modern warfare being far more destructive than it was during WWII. What should be done about this?

Poor deluded them! Wait till they're offered only $100 per kidney. — Vera Mont

Well, that is a lot of money in some places, especially when there are immediate needs that can not be met without money. There was a time when I risked going into shock by wearing extra heavy clothing so I would weigh enough to "donate" plasma for a few bucks. I developed a sense of black humor during those hard times.

Black humor-a form of humor that regards human suffering as absurd rather than pitiable, or that considers human existence as ironic and pointless but somehow comic.

Balderdash! The overpopulation could easily be remedied - could have been, for decades now - if there wasn't more profit in keeping them barefoot and pregnant and dependent on the bosses. — Vera Mont

No balderdash. It doesn't matter what was possible many years ago, because the subject is present reality. The growing human population is destroying the planet no matter if this explosion of humanity is in a third country or a modern technological one. Yes, we should have put the brakes on many years, but we didn't, and like a car going 60 miles an hour can not immediately stop, neither can the momentum of population growth be immediately stopped. The ancients saw this day coming. If we think of life as fire, we see this fire will consume the earth, as the exponential growth of the human population, increased consumption of resources, and increased pollution destroy our planet and it could be too late to stop the destruction. At no other time in the history of our planet has the human problem been as bad as it is today.

hey give the foreign 'investors' free rein to plunder their nations' resources and the industrialists supply them weapons to keep the peons in check. — Vera Mont

Oh yeah, I know that story! I think the best way to understand it is through geologists.

Yipes! I am late. Sorry I must run!

All this is tied to capitalism and its own relentless internal logic. I do admire your perseverance and consistency, even as believe you misattribute the cause. — Vera Mont

:chin: What do you mean misattribute the cause?

:lol: I do at times wonder about my thoughts looping back to a beginning point again and again. This has been a super good morning with posts that push me to learn more. I think the subject of money is way different from the discussion I want to have, but I can also see the connection.

Money and time are relatively new concepts that rule our lives and such concepts rule our lives and shape our culture even though we understand very little about the concepts and how much power, like a god, they have over our lives. Today I learned of the goddesses Nisaba and Inanna evolving out of agrarian goddesses who in the beginning caused wheat to grow, and then a temple was built to hold the wheat and priests to distribute it. Especial Nisaba was credited with giving us writing and this system of growing wheat, storing it, and distributing it required record keeping, some math, and some writing. This morning could not have been better as I learn of the evolution of a monetary system and its connection to gods and goddesses, which is a cultural/spiritual matter.

Why does one need to acquire things? The earliest clothing was made by the wearer or a member of their community.
earliest writing appears on cave walls and roadside rocks, accessible to all. Could have just carried on in the same spirit of sharing. — Vera Mont

Not when needing to tribe with the tribe that is far away and has rocks that we want. To make that trade we need a concept of money.

Due to the complexities of ancient history (ancient civilizations developing at different paces and not keeping accurate records, or having their records destroyed), and because the ancient origins of economic systems precede written history, it has not been possible to trace the true origin of the invention of money. Further, evidence in the histories[4] supports the idea that money has taken two main forms, divided into the broad categories of money of account (debits and credits on ledgers) and money of exchange (tangible media of exchange made from clay, leather, paper, bamboo, metal, etc.). — wikipedia

I gave you money to buy land and you did not pay me back, so now you are my slave for seven years because in seven years all debts are forgiven, so sayth the Lord. Only if you are not one of us, you become my slave for life and the slave of my children if you should outlive me.

Or, we must pay tax on the land alone the Nile that we are given to use, so may we help build the pharaoh's pyramid and receive our daily allotment of bread and beer as we work off the taxes we owe?

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that an idea superior to money can't come along or that UBI isn't a good idea. However, neither would be possible without passing through a time period where humans developed the inter-subjective concept of money. — LuckyR

Wow, what an interesting subject! I am not sure that we are not already being forced into that. Jose Arguelles wrote of the collapse of our money system in his book The Mayan Factor- Path Beyond Technology and our money systems are struggling. Our money is no longer backed by gold and backing the value of money on oil and the productivity it makes possible, is not stable! If the world stopped trading oil in dollars, the value of the American dollar would collapse and that seems to be happening. I don't want to go too far into talk of money and what resources and military might have to do with the value of the dollar but the need to contemplate "a time period where humans developed the inter-subjective concept of money" is now.

For sure, if the value of the dollar collapses, everything else may seem unimportant.

Sure, blind alleys and paths that lead to destruction, have been and probably always will be, wandered down due to ignorance and fear and will continue to be taken by many. After 10,000 years of tears however, I hope each human generation can make better and better choices, faster and faster, before we make ourselves extinct, and this bit of the universe has to wait many many more millennia before evolution and natural selection, results in another permutation of sentient life, that might do better than the dinos, the early hominids or the humans did. — universeness

Oh my, that is a hard thing to think about. :heart: We are on a radically changing world with far more humans than there are resources. Around the world people flooding out of overpopulated countries with the hope of having a better life where capitalism is strong. I don't think they know about the human exploitation of capitalism. However, some of the most successful people came from overpopulated countries where competition for resources is very hard and human kindness is lacking. I am not sure that is what we want? :chin: I have an audio explanation of Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick- a curious mix of idealism and human exploitation. Please, come over and we can listen to it together and then talk about it. Would like some coffee or tea? how about finger sandwiches?

I sincerely wish we could all get together like the Athenians did and argue our different points of view and really get to know each other because the flavor of our relationships is so important to our understanding of each other. When I was young and struggling to feed my children, I thought it horribly wrong that we did not live with sharing as many primitives did. Humanity may not have survived if we did not have an instinct of caring for each other, but how did we make that work?

Since the days of Sumer there were stories of hard-working fathers and sons who expected to have everything without working for it. You make me so happy by causing me to think of such things. We so need to do this as the Athenians did. How do we have children we are proud of instead of brats like Nellie Oleson in Little House on the Parie of sulky Trump who always looks like he will throw a tantrum if he doesn't get his way? How do we prepare our children to be adults who help the tribe survive?

You may already be familiar with the content of the two videos below, filmed in Vancouver Canada and Kensington Philadelphia, only a few days ago! We both know there are many more examples all around this planet.
Good people like yourself, Vera Mont, and many many other people online, will never accept this f****** bullshit and that is where my strength and outrage finds help, maintenance and hope. — universeness

Thank you for spreading the awareness. Right now my sister is in a hotel with a dying man. She has put out a request for help paying for the hotel room. She would take him to a hospital but he refuses to go. This is not the first time she has stayed with a dying person,

For the last couple of years, my sister has cared for the homeless using her own money and getting money from others to cover the costs that are essential to survival. She has a Facebook page where she posts what she is dealing with and she has gotten criticism for posting some really awful things. She moved to Salem, our state capitol, so she could testify when the legislatures are dealing with a relevant problem.

My oldest Granddaughter manages a Saint Vincent de Paul campsite for homeless people. She got to this because her mother was an addict and they were homeless while I cared for her sister and brother and their father returned to prison for drugs and violence. Her mother (my daughter) is now a drug rehab. counselor and is saving lives.

I began advocating for the homeless when Reagan was president because I wanted to get homeless people out of my home. I dealt with many homeless teenagers when we were in a severe recession and when that recession ended and rentals suddenly cost a lot more, and the number of home people increased with mothers and children on the streets, I had to take action!

All of this is tied to oil and our national debt and a dramatic change in education and culture. If you all know at least enough to relate to what I am saying, I will be very thankful.

My sister confirmed I should speak with the judge, even though she pointed out that if I ignore the parking fines the city can not garnish his Social Security to pay them. We are fighting for awareness and justice. I am overwhelmed with a 5 day a week job and the extra load of dealing with the homeless problems. That is why I have not posted for a long time.

And what you described was not a leader; it is a sociopath. US media should have ignored him to death from the minute he announced his candidacy - he only does what he does for the attention; he's an addict. Instead, they're still featuring his ugly, stupid smirk every single day on my annoying pop-ups screen. I see nothing in PBS broadcasting - not news shows, not documentaries and not discussion or interview shows - that promote any such behaviour. But I used to see plenty of it on FUX, before we cancelled regular television. Now I don't hear the vitriol or the advertising.
Minor point of accuracy: Trump didn't raise an army. Trump can't hide a few dozen boxes of stolen documents - what makes you think he's competent to organize anything? The yahoos recruited over half a decade by Wallace, Goldwater, Gingrich et al, propagandized by Sinclair/Murdoch, armed to the teeth by the NRA lobby and empowered by the southern GOP election-fraud machine, were economically insecure, emotionally immature, chronically aggrieved and primed for someone to point them out a scapegoat and say "Throw your tantrum. I'll let you get away with it." That's all he did, and he's still trying to bribe them with the promise of pardons. The situation had been set up by the constitution, pushed to the back-burner and pulled to the front by various political factions as it served their interest from time to time. All trump did was plug into a ready-made slot at the moment their two biggest betes noires were looming on the horizon and then keep telling them what they wanted to hear. — Vera Mont

Yes, that is what happened, exactly as it happened when Hitler became popular. That is why I keep talking about education. The masses must be prepared for democracy with liberty and at the end of WWII for national defense reasons we replaced that education with education for technology. We adopted the German models of education for technology and their model for bureaucracy and slowly all our institutions are organized as the enemy of democracy and this results in reactionary politics and the big mess we are in now.

I hope before I die people understand what I am saying and organize for a return to democracy and also that demand we replace the autocratic model of Industry with a democratic model. There is hope if we have both education for democracy and democratic Institutions.

Leaders don't need "charisma", whatever that is; they need integrity, dedication, stamina and the good sense to surround themselves with knowledgeable advisors and competent administrators. — Vera Mont

Trump was elected and many believe he won the second election too. There is a real chance he will win the next election and this is so because of his charisma.

Charismatic authority is a concept of leadership developed by the German sociologist Max Weber. It involves a type of organization or a type of leadership in which authority derives from the charisma of the leader. This stands in contrast to two other types of authority: legal authority and traditional authority. — Wikipedia

Charisma is perhaps the most important thing for a candidate to have because it is what gets the votes.

By definition, the charismatic leadership style uses verbal and nonverbal communication to charm, influence, and persuade others to help them fulfill their mandate or see things as they do. This type of leader makes those around them believe that they can achieve any goal or milestone, even in the face of adversity. They do this by displaying a positive attitude, showing empathy, telling stories, using humor, reading people, and working a room. — Emily May

Trump did raise an army to storm the Capitol Building to take the presidency by force and they all wrongly believed without question that was the right thing to do. It was this Trump's behavior that has him on trial, not his words. He can legally lie all he wants but attempting to prevent Biden from taking office was not legal behavior and it blows me away that his followers do not see that and do not worry about what he does with power when he is in a position of great power. That is the power of charisma.

Of course, I haven't kept track of their doings. TBH, I haven't really paid much attention to the workings of our own public networks. There does tend to be an inflation of monetary reward in all aspects of show business, including sport-for-mass-audience, and it's unfortunate that public networks get caught up in it -- I suppose in part due to competition for talent with private enterprise.
Nevertheless, it's one our last hope for an informed voting public. — Vera Mont

Before we can have better reporting we must have a better-educated population, so that people don't follow people like Hitler and Trump. Education for technology, and replacing the Conceptual Method with the Behaviorist Method, leaves us vulnerable to Charismatic Leadership such as Hitler and Trump. It is lead to Hitler's popularity the same as it led to Trump's popularity.

In the US we do not have a good source of information because reporting is no longer about defending our country with the truth. We are now all about popularity and money. The values that support charismatic leaders. And we have a mass that will buy almost anything if everyone likes the product and they might miss the boat and not be able to buy the product next week. Wherever I see these sales tricks for hooking us emotionally, I stop reading or stop listening because it is not ethical to use tricks to increase sales and I don't do business with unethical people.

Publically owned TV seems to be doing better than privately owned stations but often they are too opinionated and one-sided and flat-out rude talking over the person they are interviewing.

Amen just translates to 'so be it,' theists have no ownership rights to such terms, that I recognise. — universeness

I am highly in favor of what you said. People who think only they know God's truth and stand in God's favor, are very offensive. Thinking a book and their interpretation of it is equal to having God's authority is just wrong!

This reads to me like Jordan Peterson talking about natural hierarchies.
The human race is not forced to accept the social consequences of following the path that natural hierarchies leads to. The kind of social positioning you are referring to, that ultimately leads to 'rule of the few' with some leader at the top supported by an elite, who control all the military assets, is a model we all know well and is why we are in the mess we are in.

Our desire to be accepted leads to good social behavior and those with the best social skills will be leaders.
— Athena
This methodology has failed miserably. We need to keep pursuing a better one.
Especially when 'best social skills,' commonly means 'best at fooling some of the people all of the time.'

The majority will be followers because they do not want the responsibility of leadership.
— Athena
The leaders/followers model is a failed model, we need something better.
Government of, for and by the people must become vocational and be rewarded by high esteem, role model status, positive historical legacy etc, rather that personal wealth, and power. — universeness

Well damn, you wrote exactly what is most on my mind, our relationship to authority. My homeless guy had his 3rd stroke and was found unconscious on the ground by his car. I have been overwhelmed feeling I need to visit him and take care of all his stuff. He was moved from the hospital to rehab and then moved to a long-term care facility about an hour away.

I could not move his car because of a mechanical problem so it was towed. Before it was towed I piled all his stuff in my living room. My actions resulted in a delay in towing his car away and that lead to repeatedly putting parking tickets on his car. I am horrified that I could immediately inform the powers that be that he had a stroke and could not communicate or get out of bed and that did nothing to stop the mechanical process issuing fines and taking the car. I feel like I have been caught up in this meat grinder that can not be shut off.

I intend to see a judge. I am pretty scared because I took the towing sticker off the window, delaying the tow. I wanted to bring the sticker inside so I could read it and learn what is the right way of handling this situation, but it came off in pieces that I couldn't read. That was after phone calls and going to a parking authority to explain he had a stroke. There is a huge breakdown in communication! I can not believe how mechanical the process is and that it cares nothing about the human being. I want to look the judge in the eye and ask him if it was understood the owner of the car could not possibly move his car because of a stroke. I want to say how challenging it was to get the information needed for better decision-making.

Everyone thinks I am wrong to do anything and that I should act cowardly and do nothing but stay out of the problem. But I am thinking if we do not hold this authority in check, we lose our liberty and that means we have fought every war nothing, and any acts of war we commit from here are wrong because we no longer have the personal power and liberty we once had. The authority above us in held in check and people who see this love Trump, but they do not see Trump is our Hitler, using our anger and fear to turn us against our government and put all the power in his hands and his hands only, just as Hitler did.

I really want to hear from others. Is a government a good government if ignores a man can do nothing to protect what is his because he had a stroke? The government not only towed the car away but it put fine after fine on the car. Isn't that equal to kicking a man when he is down?

It's very different indeed, as being able to take your basic means of survival for granted, does not give you the power and influence over others, and over what does and does not happen, that having excessive wealth can and usually does. — universeness

What fun would life be with no challenges? One of those challenges is social position. Social animals have social positioning. Some will have more power over others and some will have none. This includes all social animals not just humans and our economic system. Our desire to be accepted leads to good social behavior and those with the best social skills will be leaders. The majority will be followers because they do not want the responsibility of leadership. This consideration is crucial to our notions of culture and education.

I look around me and see people who do nothing but play computer games or watch TV and eat! They destroy their bodies and minds in their pursuit of happiness. I can not comprehend the possibility that humans will enjoy actualizing their potential if they get everything they need with no effort.

Having family and a job are important parts of our identity and structuring our lives. The homeless people with no social ties or responsibility and accountability to others, become as referral cats. They are not "civilized" and are likely to spend the rest of their lives alienated from their own society without serious intervention. I must say, I speak because I am not at peace with my thoughts. I am not sure of what I think, only of what I have seen. If we do not take great care, we have serious personal and social problems.

All the unanswered questions in the universe and the journey to discover who you are and what you want. — universeness

That is not natural for all people. Please come spend a day in my life. I am heartbroken by how my own family can totally miss any pleasure in learning. They are locked into helplessness and defend themselves by avoiding any challenge other than computer games. And all around me are people who do much other than watch TV. They like to socialize but all they about life is the own personal experience of it, so to me they are very boring! I would say most people avoid life as much as they can. They most certainly avoid thinking. No thinking = no doing.

I don't understand this mindset! What notion of success are you allowing to hold judgment over your life? Surely not the amassment of money and material goods. — universeness

I wish I had completed at least one book and then did a lecture tour to promote the ideas about democracy and education before my mind got so weak the effort is futile. :chin: It is interesting indeed to think of what I said here and then think about your question. I know a point in my life when I wish I had made a different decision. But now I can think of that with hindsight. I didn't know then what I know now.

Sounds to me that you know what your reasoning was, for not playing the money trick game, to buy cheap and sell dear, and become rich by doing so. Never forget the main problem the rich (especially the nefarious rich) have. If you can buy a Rolls Royce in the same way as an average person can buy a loaf of bread or a drink of water, then there is no joy, no satisfaction, no achievement whatsoever, in buying a Rolls Royce. This is why the rich get involved in weird shit, as they need to get involved in more and more extreme stuff, to feel anything. — universeness

I totally agree with you and the more I ponder what you say, the more I think I have a pretty darn good life. I remember fearing what wealth would do to me and I would again choose the life I have over having too much money. I love to think about how I would change my life if I won the lottery, but I am not sure if I would really enjoy that. It would mean taking on a whole lot of responsibility I don't have now and I suspect that would not be fun. Wow, I am so glad you replied and stirred all these thoughts. I am feeling happier and happier with the life I have right now.

We do whatever we can as individuals to help create a better world.
We speak out and vote against unfettered free market capitalism. We support ideas such as Universal Basic Income. We advocate nurturing people over profits. We fight for the basic means of survival to be accepted as a human right or else we declare our society, still, uncivilised. We support the removal of money as the main means of exchange from global humanity. We totally reject all forms of religious authority, for ever and ever, regardless of how convinced that woo woo is real, any individual or group is.
I could go on, but I wonder when you will finally accept that you have been, and continue to be, a 'successful' human being. Why don't you take that very very deep, very slow, inhalation and exhalation of breath, over and over again, that confirms your 'at f****** last, acceptance of you as a successful human.' It was NEVER about becoming one of the rich and powerful. The vast majority of them are, and always have been, and always will be, unsuccessful human beings imo. — universeness

On all those things I do not agree. I think a degree of incivility is desirable for the same reason too much wealth can destroy our enjoyment of life. If all the basic needs were met without a person making an effort, how would that be different from having too much wealth? What would motivate people to make an effort? This would really be disastrous if it killed industry because there was no way to measure success and reward those who took responsibility. Like I said, if I won the lottery I don't think I would want the responsibility of using that money to create and manage a town. What are you willing to do for no reward? Many jobs have an intrinsic value and many do not but they must be done.

I am trying to expand my great-grandson's life by increasing what he knows and helping him find his own interest and talents. That was the role of teachers played before IQ testing to identify those students best suited for higher education for military and industrial purposes. Today's education is producing products for industry and this leads to a mechanical society. Children who do not automatically follow this technological education agenda become excluded and part of the thrown-away population. It is a huge challenge to help a child discover his/her talents and interest and excite them about learning about the world instead of turning the child off. What do you think is the best way to motivate personal growth?

I should also mention that Pandit Nehru was probably a pantheist who perceived both positive and negative elements in religion. The following quotations from 'The Discovery of India' bespeak this:

"What the mysterious is I do not know. I do not call it God because God has come to mean much that I do not believe in. I find myself incapable of thinking of a deity or of any unknown supreme power in anthropomorphic terms, and the fact that many people think so is continually a source of surprise to me. Any idea of a personal God seems very odd to me. Intellectually, I can appreciate to some extent the conception of monism, and I have been attracted towards the Advaita (non-dualist) philosophy of the Vedanta, though I do not presume to understand it in all its depth and intricacy, and I realise that merely an intellectual appreciation of such matters does not carry one far. At the same time the Vedanta, as well as other similar approaches, rather frighten me with their vague, formless incursions into infinity. The diversity and fullness of nature stir me and produce a harmony of the spirit, and I can imagine myself feeling at home in the old Indian or Greek pagan and pantheistic atmosphere, but minus the conception of God or Gods that was attached to it." — Existential Hope

I read your words very slowly before selecting the Pandit Nehru quote to comment on. I think I need to read your thoughts again and ponder them because it is not possible to understand a different point of view with casual reading. I think I see an inseparable relationship between working with a collective consciousness and being tolerant of differences. This is delicious. I can not automatically hold those concepts and make them useful. I can only know there are different thoughts that influence our experience of life differently.

For the notion of religion being compatible with democracy, I can find words to express my thoughts on that. I love the line "I do not call it God because God has come to mean much that I do not believe in."

I am sure there was resistance to people having a personal God. It came with Judaism and speaking the name of God was forbidden along with making images of God. Christians deifying Jesus and turning him into a personal God is shocking! It is interesting Hindus have so many religious icons and so do Catholics but Muslims are sticklers about not making images of God. That is a curious cultural difference since images are a way of conveying concepts. The Greeks created Athena's temple with statues and pictures that conveyed the new democratic relationship of the gods. That is they used images to tell a story and Islam does not have pictures for knowing God.

I really do not know enough about these differences but when we come to collective thinking and accepting differences, I think the understanding of God is very important, and worshipping a God who is jealous, revengeful, punishing, and fearsome, is a long way from the collective consciousness. To pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done" is not exactly about being inclusive and tolerant.

In the US we are now struggling with accepting diversity. I suspect we are as far from the Hindu consciousness as people can get. Despite our idealistic claims of democracy, we have persecuted and killed people who are different. The history of Christianity is violent and bloody. It is democracy that gave us peace, not religion! But because the US stopped using education to transmit a culture, and left moral training to the Church, we are in a crisis that threatens the future of our democracy. And I sure would not want to be in a place like Afghanistan because of religious notions held to be true there.

For many years I was determined to write a book about democracy and education and I hit a roadblock when I had to address the Christian problem. It is so tied to our politics and so threatening at this time, we can not be passive about the relationship between religion and politics.

"I can imagine myself feeling at home in the old Indian or Greek pagan and pantheistic atmosphere, but minus the conception of God or Gods that was attached to it."[/quote]

If we see those gods as concepts we can appreciate their importance to democracy and civilization. But on an emotional level, I would love to have a time machine and travel to Egyptian and the building of the pyramids, and loving our pharaoh who is as a god on earth and to think of nothing but this loving relationship with the pharaoh and how I can serve him and the building of the pyramids. That relationship with the pharaoh is exactly like the relationship some Christians have with Jesus today. To experience that instead of all the responsibility that goes with living in a democracy, would be wonderful. It is not possible to have that relationship with Jesus or a pharaoh when we hold secular concepts of democracy and a sense of our civic duty that is so much more than periodically voting.

"Jawaharlal Nehru (/ˈneɪru/ or /ˈnɛru/;[1] Hindi: [ˈdʒəʋɑːɦəɾˈlɑːl ˈneːɦɾuː] (listen); juh-WAH-hurr-LAHL NE-hǝ-ROO; 14 November 1889 – 27 May 1964) was an Indian anti-colonial nationalist, secular humanist, social democrat,[2] and author who was a central figure in India during the middle third of the 20th century. Nehru was a principal leader of the Indian nationalist movement in the 1930s and 1940s. Upon India's independence in 1947, he became the first prime minister of India, serving for 16 years. Nehru promoted parliamentary democracy, secularism, and science and technology during the 1950s, powerfully influencing India's arc as a modern nation. In international affairs, he steered India clear of the two blocs of the Cold War. A well-regarded author, his books written in prison, such as Letters from a Father to His Daughter (1929), Glimpses of World History (1934), An Autobiography (1936), and The Discovery of India (1946), have been read around the world. The honorific Pandit has been commonly applied before his name." — Existential Hope

I would love to know the books he read because this explanation of him makes me think he was literate in Greek and understood the reasoning for democracy as it came out of Greek philosophy. I don't think religion is compatible with democracy. I think the religions have more agreements than disagreements, but their mythologies explaining human behavior are whacky. I like the notion of reincarnation and it might be part of reality but until we can test and validate that we should not be too sure of that possibility.

secularism emerged out of Protestantism — Existential Hope

I wonder how got Deepak got that idea. I would credit the Greek philosophers for secularism. It goes with deciding our health problems have physical causes and those problems are not caused by the gods. Socrates rejected the line of reason for atoms because that just didn't interest him, but in general back in the day, some of the Greeks were interested in physical reality, and not the gods. Socrates did take issue with some of the god stories that promoted bad values, such as adultery.

But Calvinism led to Puritans and then the Congregationalists and it strongly influences our materialism, work ethics, and economy. It is so different from collective reasoning because that line of reasoning is based on God's chosen few, not the whole of humanity. I can see where Deepak might take issue with that line of reasoning.

I have declared myself a democratic socialist and a secular humanist, consistently on TPF.
I value co-operation far far far more than I value competition.
My individuality is part of my identity, my socialism and humanism are my conclusions and my main/strongest drivers. — universeness

Oh my goodness but how do we survive in the US if we think like you? I am beating myself up for not being a more successful person. I didn't try hard enough, or was there value in being cooperative and not competitive? I remember the 1970 recession when it was extremely hard to get a job and it was demanded that we dress up our resumes and perhaps exaggerate our qualifications. I was a domestic woman and just could not become competitive in that way. Not even college cured me of being a domestic woman. I knew the tricks for selling things and I could have been rich but I had to take a low-paying in-home aide job that fit my values. I have read women tend to be more attracted to meaningful work, and we do it for intrinsic reasons, not the money. Doing something just for the money was so wrong! That is being part of the problem.

I am not sure I am wrong. Now teachers and nurses are paid a lot and they want more, and this makes education and health care unavoidable. Our equality with men means more women and children are involved in crime as both victims and the ones who commit the crimes. Our technological development is doing fine, but our civilization seems to be spinning out of control.

Talk to me. Where do we go from here?

. "Everyone" makes it transparent that we are, ultimately, not dealing with some monolithic organism, but people. We should respect the beauty of the diversity of the sentient experience without turning a blind eye to our deepest threads of unity. This would allow us to sincerely seek the truth as egotism and antagonism would give way to concern for the fellow being and a more profound comprehension of our shared existence. — Existential Hope

I am going to boldly risk looking a complete ass because the temporary pain of publically making a fool of myself is minor to what I can gain from someone with your understanding.

I have been helping a homeless man with severe brain damage and I am learning I am not the nice person I want to believe I am. Small things make me crazy like when he shakes the carton of almond milk, or I find a hair in the bathroom sink. I seriously need to live alone. He had a third stroke and this time he will be put a facility where he will get the care he needs. He may not stay. He may run but I don't think he will be physically capable of living on the street again.

This morning he had a procedure and after I waited an hour to see him, I was told he did not want to see me and I only thought of myself. :gasp: My reaction to being told I could not see him was too bad, but I wish I had immediately gone into reasoning and problem-solving with sensitivity to the possibility that he felt terrible because of the procedure and needed to be alone to heal and get past pain. Instead, I had a self-centered emotional reaction. I couldn't believe he didn't want to see me, the most important person in his life for the last 6 months :vomit: and I didn't trust the security guard and nurses, :worry: .
In my own head, I created a drama of everyone being against me. Fortunately, my paranoia lasted only a few minutes and it was in the privacy of my head, but it bothers me that I even had all these negative thoughts and so much ego tied into all this!

On the positive side, I see my wrong mental habit wrapped around my ego, and at this late date in my life, I know there is a better way. I have spent most of my life trying to understand how to be a better person and only in the last year have I met Asian people who have a totally different approach to life. I am thinking they are giving meaning to the reading I have done. Like I get it. But I am not there yet. Trying to understand a more Asian way of thinking is like going to a different planet.

Have I said anything that makes sense? I love what you said.

"as egotism and antagonism would give way to concern for the fellow" That is a new world.

Unfettered selfishness is undoubtedly a recipe for disaster. As someone from India (a society which is fairly collectivistic even now), I hope that we will find the apposite balance. — Existential Hope

You are from India? I have been so wanting an Indian point of view. In the US I don't think we have a collective awareness. We don't have a sense of how our lives impact everything and everyone. This is a disaster when dealing with a pandemic or global warming. :yikes: Democracy depends on the collective and serves all, but we think the US is democracy and don't know its origin or history and we are serving laize fair capitalism, not democracy. I see this as a huge problem.

Democracy depends on our ability to know truth and that sure isn't what is happening with those who deny the truth of pandemics and global warming. I fear we just do not loving the pursuit of truth as much as we should, and I think this is a problem with religion and education for technology. We have put our faith in a humanized god, not so different from Zues, and money, and technology, and our faith in humans has crashed.