"eff off" is the preferred usage in this thread.Now fuck off, both of you. :razz: — Banno
Neither Banno or me are saying those are the same. If I'm reading @Banno correctly at least. — Moliere
ep. So for you adding "ride the bike" to the instructions is just a way of completing them. — Banno
It's not ineffable. It's "ride the bike". — Banno
Without such grounds there's no reason we ought take even a 0.000001% risk of nuclear war to help them get it back. — Isaac
You are almost there. You almost grasped the circularity of defining red as the sensation of red. — Banno
What is it that you suppose is named here? — Banno
For a start, my insults are funnier. — Banno
And if a textbook explanation suggests the blind have visual experiences... what does that suggest for your belief that the blind can't talk of red? — Moliere
I think what you're asking is how does dialogue communicate experience? -- which I'd agree is a good question I don't quite know the answer to. — Moliere
It goes...
1. {some collection of neural firing events} ->
2. "I threw a red ball" experience ->
3. (if necessary) - abstraction of 'red', 'ball' and 'threw' from that experience (2) according to the social rules around identifying those components — Isaac
Now you're saying there's no 'the'. So which sensation did you learn to associate with the word red as a child? — Isaac
So 'red' is a social construct.
From where do we learn that the wine and the post box are of similar enough colour for the experience they produce to be the same 'red experience'? Language. Culture. — Isaac
It's ineffable.No one can describe such an experience, no-one can pin down such an experience — Isaac
You must possess a preternatural understanding of what the brain can and can't do.there's no mechanism in the brain which could account for it, there's no cortex in the brain which could process it — Isaac
No tests and all the tests fail, things are looking grim for team experience.there are no tests for it... and every test that's ever been done to try and identify such a thing has failed utterly. — Isaac
Don't believe your lying eyes.There's absolutely no evidence for it. — Isaac
No "the", these are all "red experiences". Is this going somewhere?Which one? The one you experienced with the red post box, or the one from the red wine, or the red rose, or the red car...which of them is the 'red' one? — Isaac
a private sensation is nicely pummelled by Isaac's asking which private sensation...
...why, the red ones, of course...
It's a quite vicious circularity. — Banno
Which sensation? — Isaac
When was the last time you had an experience of red and how did you know that that's what you were having at the time? — Isaac
A blind person could, of course -- because they have that experience. — Moliere
So if you want to make a case that such a thing exists, make that case. — Isaac
A computer can learn how to use the words correctly yet know nothing of what it's talking about.
— hypericin
A quick shift of the goal post in order to avoid falsification.
But this is now kicking a puppy. — Banno
Yet computers have learned to use the word red without seeing it. I guess lacking any response, one can only yap and whine about goalposts.That's the sort of grammatical problem that comes from supposing that seeing red is some sort of private experience, as opposed to learning to use the word "red" — Banno
Isaac, here we have the illusion, encouraged by phenomenology, that there is a clear distinction to be had between red and the-sensation-of-red or the-experience-of-red. And we find folk making claims that relate to Stove's Gem, such as that we really never see red, but only see experience-of-red or sensation-of-red. — Banno
You have evidence of something more? — Isaac
Banno has already disabused you of this misunderstanding. You could and would know exactly what I'm talking about by learning how to use the words correctly. — Isaac
What you're calling your 'experience of red' is a socially mediated construction. Therefore it is bound up with the language your culture uses and so can be reiterated in that language. — Isaac
Redness is always experienced as an attribute of a particular. Voilà, I said something about the experience of redness. — Heracloitus
No one can say anything about the experience of red, not because it's ineffable, but because it doesn't exist. Experiences are constructed by the brain post hoc, way, way after any processing associated with the wavelength of light reflected off an object. — Isaac
We experience a red postbox, a red car, a red rose. No one experiences just 'red'. — Isaac
You have my sympathy. — Banno
A blind person cannot see that the cup is red. But your claim was that there is something they cannot say - something sighted folk can say but not blind folk. — Banno
I don't think you can, and again, that's because seeing red is something that we do, not something that is sayable. — Banno
That's the sort of grammatical problem that comes from supposing that seeing red is some sort of private experience, as opposed to learning to use the word "red" — Banno
:rofl: :roll:the experience of color cannot be communicated.
— hypericin
Yeah, it can. The cup is red. — Banno
There is something blind folk cannot do, not something they cannot say. — Banno
And yet folk who are blind do use colour words, correctly. — Banno
To be sure, blind folk are able to talk of the warmth of red and the chill of blue. They can use colour words in much the same way as the sighted. But what they cannot do is to choose the correct word for some object that is before them, to say if it is yellow or it is green. — Banno
Our experiences are effable. What is beyond discourse is the elementals of our experience, your beloved, qualia.And since we do talk about our experiences, they are not ineffable. — Banno
if we can't accurately convey parts A, B, and C of an experience, I see no reason why we should think we could accurately convey D, E, or F, meaning the entire experience and all experiences are ineffable. If there are portions of the experience that are capable of being perfectly conveyed, I'd like to know what those portions are and why. — Hanover
What motivates us are... something else that doesn't need to be defined, because defining it will already put it under the rubric of reason, and I'd generalize to say that reason is not our human-creature motivation. — Moliere
the collapse is still preventable and probably won't effect people who have decent work right now. — Moliere
We have no knowledge of the future, really. We have good predictions, but it's happened so many times now that basically anything we believe could turn up to be wrong. — Moliere
Deliberately introducing new constraints, psychological or otherwise, to ensure you are miserable enough to match your fears for the world does seems irrational to me — Baden
I have no control over grand events, but significant control over how I spend my time. That is why I am preparing to quit my job and make the most of my (in my mind) handful of years left. If it turns out that this cataclysm is a mirage that moves forward in time along with us, and I run out of money, I will just have to go back to work, likely at a significant pay cut, and work longer in life than I would have liked.Focus on the locus of your control and control what you can. — Baden