And then there is Socratic irony, but no one here would know how to use that. — Banno

I don't know anything about it, can you define it for me?

And then there is Socratic irony, but no one here would know how to use that — Banno

I would like to tender my Apology. :snicker:

can you define it for me? — Tom Storm

That's the one.

There's also irony in the methodology of writing fiction. It can be close to the definition of "poetic irony/justice", but it's mainly used as a form of plant and payoff in thematic ways. Like if a story was about a bank robber, it can be used as a method to gain a "rhyme" to the story that the bank robber's backstory is that he managed other people's money and security before he started robbing. Or that it ends with himself being robbed by a person sharing the same values of justice as he expresses throughout the story.

It's a powerful tool for any writer to quickly identify thematic and dramatic conflicts and to express them in both funny and interesting payoffs.

There’s a lot here and I’m sure there’s a lot more to say, but I’ve always found definitions of “irony” unsatisfying. — T Clark

I’m surprised that no one has so far stated this obvious definition: “Irony” means “having the quality of iron”. For example, “The Iron Age was very irony”.

Yes, this to me can be an ironic comment - without being sarcastic, satirical, or hypocritical. Knee-slapper though it may be.

Sarcasm makes use of mockery whereas irony does not. All satires I know of make use of irony whereas not all ironies are satirical. The hypocrite engages in a form of doublethink in which they hold or act on two contrary views as though both were true or correct, whereas the ironist knows full well of the intended mismatch.

My own take is that the best cases of rhetorical and dramatic irony can be likened to an intelligent blond playing the bimbo, this so as to get their way with minimal resistance from those who presume the blond to be unintelligent or unimportant, hence from others who thereby remain ignorant of what’s in fact occurring: Those in the know - be it the rhetorician, the dramatist, or even fate for some folk, this in addition to the onlooking audience, if any - get that what’s at hand is a concealed means of actualizing an end toward which those not in the know are being led without their immediate awareness.

Socratic irony might well be a misnomer - in that Socrates deemed himself wiser than his opponent in not thinking to know that which he did not know, and there’s no definitive reason to presume Socrates insincere in so affirming. If so, Socrates never feigned ignorance to begin with.

Still, I kind of like the definition first offered in this post. Has a far more definitive ring to it by contrast to the ambiguous dictionary definitions so far here discussed. :smile:

It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention. — Vera Mont

By astutely contributing to this thread you have ironically ended it.

Blame Alanis Morrisette — Banno

In defence of Alanis...

The notion of cosmic irony (or the irony of fate) might be stretched to cover the unlucky situations that she describes in the song.

He won the lottery and died the next day

The gods bestowed the winning ticket upon a man whom they had already condemned to death the next day, so that he could not enjoy the money. They do it all the time, subverting our hopes and expectations just for a laugh.

Alternatively, the fact that her examples are not ironic is what is ironic.

Alternatively, the fact that her examples are not ironic is what is ironic. — Jamal

That's my preferred theory...

So subtle... — Banno

Right, the outcome was unintentional then. That would be an example of situational irony as given earlier in a definition gleaned from somewhere on the net. — Janus

The outcomes of all those scenarios were unintentional; only one was ironic. The one that jumped up and bit you in the ass.

By astutely contributing to this thread you have ironically ended it. — hypericin

I wish!

God's teeth. Only those lacking a sense of humor would complain of irony. As well complain of wit and the witty.

But, now that I think of it, I can't think of a witty philosopher. Wittgenstein, of course, was notoriously lacking in humor.

Bertrand Russell was hilarious.

Alanis gets an unfair bad rap for calling non-irony irony. Nelly Furtado told us she was like a bird and she could fly away - not so. Aloe Blacc still claims he needs a dollar, although I'm pretty sure he's reasonably well off. The Beatles assured me that She Loves Me, which turned out to be not quite the case. But nobody complains about them.

Altogether now:

It's like a mode of speeeeeech
That you just can't define...

Really? I had no idea. Perhaps he wasn't a philosopher, then.

I’m surprised that no one has so far stated this obvious definition: “Irony” means “having the quality of iron”. For example, “The Iron Age was very irony”. — javra

Yes...well...

“The Iron Age was very irony”.

Yes, this to me can be an ironic comment — javra

Perhaps I should have specified we are talking about a noun, not an adjective. Anyway, is your example irony? I don't think so. Maybe that's the best way of defining irony - by talking about what it's not.

Hey, @180 Proof, what's that word for defining something by talking about what it's not?

Sarcasm makes use of mockery whereas irony does not. — javra

Sarcasm is often ironic, but doesn't have to be. It only has to be nasty.

Really? I had no idea. Perhaps he wasn't a philosopher, then. — Ciceronianus

I think you'd like his Wisdom of the West. Lots of laughs, although the purpose of the book is serious.

Thanks. I'll take a look.

There's also irony in the methodology of writing fiction. — Christoffer

Are you saying that all fiction is ironic? Let me think about that... Is it ironic that we know a character is not real while they have to act as if they are?

Your post reminded me of a movie - "Stranger than Fiction." In it, a man, played by Will Ferrell, finds that he is living the life of a character in a story being written by an author, played by Emma Thompson. They meet and discuss the plot and how it is affecting the man's life. A pretty good movie. Amusing. I guess that's dramatic irony, although in this case, the character knows things the author did not intend for him to know. Which brings up "The Truman Show."

There's another kind of irony. I'm not sure whether it would be considered dramatic irony or not. That's when a character, narrator, or plot device draws attention to the fact that this situation is artificial, e.g. if a character turns to the audience and makes a comment like Puck in "Midsummer Night's Dream" saying "What fools these mortals be." Or in "Blazing Saddles" where the characters ride out of the story and into the movie studio. I remember a great TV version of "Nickolas Nickleby" where a group of characters from the book look down on the action from above and make comments, including people who have already died in the story.

In that regard, are all musicals ironic?

I would like to tender my Apology. — Agent Smith

How is this relevant?

Anyway, is your example irony? I don't think so. — T Clark

Hmm, the definition provided can be an instance of feigned ignorance intended to confound or provoke. Its intended meaning could be that the search for a definitive definition of “irony” might be a wild-goose chase. A playing the bimbo deal.

Else, one can take the face value intent of the definition at its word, in which case it could not quality as irony.

You described Irony as directed inwardly. — Gnomon
I see irony as an experience, something mental, not as an objective or physical event. — T Clark

Yes. I was trying to distinguish the inner feeling of Irony (private experience) from projecting that feeling toward others, as in Satire or Sarcasm (public experience). I suppose that Satire (e.g. stand-up comedy) could be considered an objective form of Irony, in that it depends on a common feeling among the audience. Those who don't share the feeling will not find it funny. Especially, if they are the butt of the joke. :joke:

Objective : 1 · being outside of the mind and independent of it.
Note -- Viral Memes (e.g. knock-knock jokes) begin as subjective ideas, but when they go public, the associated feeling is communicated to others. Many, if not most jokes, are funny because they point-out situations that are contrary to expectations, or to logic, or to social oughts.

How is this relevant? — T Clark

Please ask Banno.

Please ask Banno. — Agent Smith

I'm asking you. You wrote it.

I'm asking you. You wrote it. — T Clark

Apologies mi amigo, but Banno's the lead vocalist. I'm just a backup singer. Looks like I'm going to be unemployed very soon! :snicker:

And the coloured girls go do, dedo, dedo, dodeddo...

Take a walk on the wild side.

I was taught (falsely perhaps) that in America the only people to understand irony and use it well in humour and art are the Jews. — Tom Storm

What you say is true, which is yet another reason why my presence on this board is critical.

That is sarcasm, not irony by the way. That's something else my people excel at.

Should the fire station burn to the ground, that is ironic.

If one's iron wrinkles one's pants, that is irony about an iron, which is not only ironic, but a pun, and it's even a dad joke.

I'll be here all night. Please tip your waitresses.

Should the fire station burn to the ground, that is ironic. — Hanover

So you are of the Alanis Morissette school on this topic.

-wrong thread-

So you are of the Alanis Morissette school on this topic. — Banno

I'd have to go back and study the litany of complaints itemized in her song, but I believe mine is different. She describes various things that suck, like winning the lottery and dying soon thereafter. It is not expected that one might live any more or less based upon a lottery win, but it is expected that the fire house is the least likely place to burn to the ground. It is the unexpected event that makes that ironic.

To the extent the concept of irony eludes you, that simply proves @Tom Storm's well researched theory that irony comprehension remains a mystery to the gentiles.

And that comment is sarcastic, and intended to be playful, not meant as an actual cut on Tom's theory, as that would be sardonic, a new concept now for consideration.