It was from a meta-ethical standpoint I said this. That is why I reframed 'Moral' and 'Ethical'. Anyway, I think we mostly understand each other here even if we disagree about AN :)

Thank you

I think it is hard to articulate - hence the problem of vagueness. It is something some people struggle to fully grasp. Emotivism that is!

The fact that I don't think I should be forcing other people to adopt my view doesn't make it less ethically-driven. — AmadeusD

In common parse, yes. In the framing I made for 'Moral' and 'Ethical' I am satisfied with how you have responded. If you had said some other things then I would have pulled you up about them. This is because AN only makes rational sense if it is either 'Moral' OR 'Ethical' in the way I framed those terms.

Could you expand? My understanding of Moral Naturalism is that it more or less indicates that morals are evolutionarily-required aspects of human development, which I don't agree with. — AmadeusD

It just seemed that you were framing emotional dispositions as the grounding for moral choices rather than there being no moral choices. I made the leap from biological necessity to emotional dispositions. That is clearly not what you meant though.

What is Right For You (Emotivism) is not deemed Objectively Right. Ergo, your claim is Subjectively Led not Objectively Led - for emphasis this is what I meant in my distinction between Moral (Right for Your Perspective) and Ethical (The Right Objective Implementation).

Only you can shake yourself free of dogma sadly. If you cannot admit he was wrong about anything then that should tell you something at least.

GL

He was wrong about the immediate collapse of capitalism. This is not a controversial point.

He has yet to be proven right about where a communist revolution would occur too. Where they did occur did not fit into his vision at all.

It generally does happen. — Tarskian

It did not happen. If you cannot admit this simple truth then there is nothing to discuss.

To be fair to Marx he envisioned a transition from capitalism to communism through socialism NOT a jump from feudalism directly to socialism. Either way, it was all hypothetical and has yet to have come to fruition on a national scale.

That is silly. What he said would happen did not happen. Pretending he made this claim yesterday is simply ignoring that fact that capitalism did the exact opposite to what he predicted after his death.

Charles Dickens made the very same kind of predictions too. It is completely understandable given the socio-politcal climate of their times. It just didn't pan out as they expected.

And again, all that aside, Marx certainly pointed out problems with the economic system that are worthy of examination today. I am not simply dismissing every criticism he had of capitalism.

He said the middle class would get sucked down into poverty. They didn't. That fact is not up for debate.

That is not to say he pointed out valid issues with capitalism. I do not believe any one in history has ever been proven correct in every prediction that they made - and even those that were correct are seldom so for valid reasons.

If we can believe Plato's account (which I doubt we can fully) then he was threatened under the assumption he would flee Athens. Socrates called their bluff though and refused to leave on principle. If he had left he would have been shown to be a hypocrite.

In general, I believe Plato wrote what he wrote because he was against Democracy. I doubt Socrates was against Democracy (if he was the kind of person we generally think of him as) because he always questioned everything rather than reaching specific conclusions about broader political matters.

Emphatically NO!

This is because it is like asking for white to be black OR black to be white. If either were the case neither would exist. The kind of utopia many hope for essentially culminates in annihilation of everything as a 'solution'.

The point of this thread: Marx's vision of communism has been corrupted in various ways. — Deletedmemberzc

"Corrupted" and also amended. Some of his criticisms of capitalism have not aged well but some others have.

I think it is clear his main criticism of capitalism was in fact wrong. He predicted that capitalism would lead to an increase in poverty. In his time it is quite easy to see why he would think this, but he was simply proven wrong by history on this main point.

That said, many of his subordinate criticisms of capitalism have yet to be resolved.

It is probably worth listening to what someone said about Lenin here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TK9c-caEcw

Allow me to sum up your position then, generally.

You deem 'suffering' as 'bad' (or rather "Boo!") knowing it is your subjective emotions talking.

How then can you state, in any serious way, that something is 'right' or 'wrong'. The whole point of AN is to state that natalism is wrong. But you seem to be saying "it is 'wrong' (boo!) for me" not that it is out and out wrong (Boo!) for everyone or that there is anything dictating what is objectively viewed as 'right; or 'wrong' other than commonality of emotional expressions.

It is interesting how this, in part, appears similar to moral naturalism rather than moral scepticism.

Following this lien of questioning I find myself framing you as what I previously expressed as harbouring a 'Moral' stance of AN rather than an 'Ethical' stance of AN. I made this particular distinction in an essay I wrote on AN to highlight the flaw in some who make claims to both 'Moral' and 'Ethical' stances on AN as to do so is to hold contradictory positions.

Anyway, thanks for your replies. I think we could argue back and forth a bit more but it may be mostly a semantic issue given that emotivism is hard to articulate (a serious flaw of emotivism).

The world is becoming, but our thoughts are eternal. — Gregory

Technically there is very little evidence for this. It is simply a subjective assumption we make due to our appreciation of time (or rather entropy).

The phenomenological positioning of Husserl might shed some light on this topic. What is experienced is experienced. The 'reality' of it is neither here nor there. We experience. From this point we can then pick out certain universals.

It is kind of funny how they both seem thrilled about the moral implications when judging people as agents yet seem to detach morality from consequences :D

In fairness to Sapolsky he makes no claims to be a philosopher.

If you look at all the arguments and conclude "Not good enough", fine, but I'll think you're wrong and would try to persuade you otherwise. — AmadeusD

You do this actively or only when questioned about your AN beliefs?

I do think it can be quite problematic to argue about moral positions unless you adhere to some kind of moral realism. I am assuming you are a moral realist? If not how does this fit into your views on AN?

Thanks

Thanks for that insight! Interesting :up:

So in light of what I said you are framing yourself as 'moral' not 'ethical' in regards to AN? I say this because of the following:

My views are odd - because I am conceptually in line with AN entirely (including the above prescriptive thinking and hte delineation between living and potential persons) but I don't take anything seriously enough to think this is a view I could enforce. And nor would I want to. I have better things to do. Thsi is an intellectual position that I do believe in, but as with all of my positions, I think they apply to me. I can simply think one has their reasoning wrong without impugning htem intellectually. — AmadeusD

This is directly in line with what I outlined as 'moral' and almost entirely opposed to the 'ethical'. Do you agree that what you say here aligns with what I stated as being a 'moral' stance rather than what I stated as an 'ethical' stance? If not why? (Note: I used these terms fairly loosely so there is wiggle room).

ANs do believe in the extinction of society being the ethically correct outcome of hte near-middle future. But, not by genocide. Not it's better 'for society'. It 'is better'. Full stop. — AmadeusD

No they do not. Only if they proclaim AN as an 'ethical' paradigm that must be followed by others. When it comes to believing that it should be followed the same would not apply if should is framed as a suggestion rather than am order based on irrefutable reasoning.

You are a believer in AN? If so I am curious what your views are. I know already know well enough what Schopenhauer believes what about you? Even if you are one of those I said I would have 'contempt' for I would still like to try and understand why you think what you think :)

morals as personal position and ethics as suggested action.

I am not saying I understood what they said just that it made me think of this. Whether they can apply it or not we will see.

One possible route would be licensing for parentage. — AmadeusD

I have mentioned this before. That is not exactly something I would favour but it falls far away from the kind of of extreme I was talking about - an essential ban on procreation - which is not really what AN is about.

It's possible you missed that your arguments support action, while what I'm outlining supports the position. Maybe? — AmadeusD

I have a feeling this is parallel to something I have tried to mention before on the subject of AN.

Often what is ethical is used synonymously with what is moral. With AN we are really talking about a 'moral' view (individual conscience) whereas as an 'ethical' view (general rule for society) it is something quite different.

The lack of common distinction with these terms causes discussions about AN to become fractious. This is why you see so many people believing that others are condoning the extinction of the human species - they see the 'ethical' stance as saying this is better for society (the destruction of society is better for society).

Brain would equate to body. I am sure you know of the most famous case in neuroscience: Phineas Gage.

An argument for some kind of self permanence, in the sense you are talking, would probably be better grounded in emergentism or something more applicable to entropy at large - meaning metaphysical grounding rather than in physicalism.

Personally speaking I think of 'Philosophy' as essentially meaning "ways of thinking about ..." rather than "love of knowledge," which is too question begging for me.

In theatrical performances the line between the audience and the performance often disappears in many cultural traditions (see Clifford Geertz for that regarding his experiences in Bali).

What I was trying to highlight in that quote from Nietzsche is how we partake in the performance and reveal something harsh about the reality of human existence. The essence of such brutal experiences (secondhand or imagined) taps into the essence of being human. We cherish such stark encounters with brute reality.

The 'pleasure' may be interpreted as more or less a recognition of reality as a means of value even though there is suffering - or rather because there is suffering.

Anyway, this is a topic that hits some familiar ground for me as I ended up reading 'Beyond Good and Evil' and then realised I needed to read 'On the Genealogy of Morals' first and then realised I needed to read 'The Birth of Tragedy' prior to that ... and then eventually I started with Aristotle's Poetics and worked my way back to 'Beyond Good and Evil'. I recommend doing this, it is fun watching different threads of ideas weaving together and interesting questions surfacing.

I think this sums up Catharsis fairly well and answers the question of why tragedy gives 'pleasure':

§17 - Dioysiac art, too, wishes to convince us of the eternal delight of existence - but we are to seek that delight not in phenomena themselves but behind phenomena. It wishes us to acknowledge that everything that comes into being must be prepared to face a sorrowful end. If forces us to look at terrors of individual existence, yet we are not to be petrified with fear. A metaphysical consolation wrests us momentarily from the bustle of changing forms. For a brief moment we really become primal essence itself, and feel its unbounded lust for existence and delight in existence.

- Nietzsche, The Birth of Tragedy

It almost sounds like schadenfreude is trying to muscle in here? Is that the real hidden question? I think Cartharsis is quite a different beast to Schadenfreude. Maybe discussing the distinction could prove fruitful.

I've come to see some limits to his thinking and I continue to think through that. — Moliere

The same for all philosophical ideas as far as I can tell. I hate it when I cannot see something wrong with someone's thinking BUT I know there is always something.

Sadly people tend to stick resolutely to one idea or another believing it is infallible. I am wary of folk who put any philosophical idea on a pedestal. I believe there is something to be learnt from them all but that none have any universal application.

Here is something that might interest folks here.

There's No Free Will. What Now? - Robert Sapolsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgvDrFwyW4k&t=2804s

I think it could be interesting to have a particular Member on of the forum as a focus for a month. Where others are actively encouraged to engage in 2-3 of their ideas/thoughts in threads (maybe highlight them somehow).

Obviously it would be a case of asking Member(s) to prepare for this. It could even be a joint effort perhaps? With 2-3 Members focusing on 2-3 particular topics and interacting that way?

Just a passing idea so not thoroughly fleshed out. I think for such thread it would make sense to be a little more strict too in terms of sticking to the topic in the OP rather than like elsewhere on the forum where threads can take a life of their own and meander into other interesting areas of discussion (which is great!). Just feel a more rigid format for something like what I am suggesting could be interesting in building a more thorough engagement with people who are particularly knowledgeable/passionate in more specific areas.

Literally everything I say is a lie, therefore, not literally all things others provide are true.

This is assuming lie as equivalent to some opposite forms.

How we interpret the sentence matters. Some will do so more literally than others and use their own methodology. If it is paradoxical then try to make it not so and see if any meaning can be established.

We don't have one for thinking with consciousness, and one for thinking without consciousness. — Patterner

Thinking that is not in a state of consciousness is not thinking - dreaming is a conscious state btw.

We don't have one for thinking independent of the physical events of the brain, and one for thinking that is the physical events of the brain. The ideas of thinking without consciousness and thinking being nothing but the physical events of our brains are not parts of our culture, or our language. — Patterner

Because such would be fairly nonsensical so specificity would be required to distinguish such ideas.

Is this because our culture and language grew in a people who, rare individuals aside, never considered these concepts? The things we have words for are the things the people assumed were true without even saying. — Patterner

They exist is specialised fields but are often uncommon in colloquial speech. An example of a technical jargon being transferred to daily parse is "meme," but it did lose a fair bit of its meaning once taken into colloquial speech.

If terms are rarely used they quickly die or are repurposed. A great many philosophical idea from people like Kant or Hegel are often construed in many different ways by different people.

Time is probably the most troublesome concept philosophers have to deal with.

If this discussion is going to continue down the road of analysing determinism and such (outside of the dictates of the OP) then I might as well throw this out there:

https://journals.publishing.umich.edu/phimp/article/id/782/

It is worth considering the manner in which the terms 'reactive' and 'responsible' are used in distinguishing between deterministic and libertarian attitudes towards the broader question of free-will.

So what flavour of determinist are you? Sounds like Hard Determinism?

I am talking about the context of the OP and made a point about determinism in a non-determine world compared to ... well you should know by now because I must have repeated myself about 4 or 5 times.

In the context of this thread (assuming Non-determinism) it makes some sense - but I would not word it in that manner.

As an example someone might say: "My liberal views tell me what to do." as a figure of speech it is perfectly reasonable to say this.

Okay, I made a tiny error.

He says he has observed no real difference. He then asked if you fret less. So you are effectively trying to counter my argument.

My argument would still stand that there is no reason to assume that determinists and non-determinists have the same emotional reactions to different situations.

A pure fatalist would have no way of accepting this though because they are pure fatalists.

Okay, let me show you another way of interpreting what that person could have meant:

Maybe they meant that determinists are less likely to fret about certain situations not that they necessarily have more or less emotional control, but that their belief in a deterministic world means they are more easily able to let go. Maybe we can call this the "Que sera sera!" reaction to some given situation. This would be the more rationally weighted choice for a deterministic mindset than a non-deterministic mindset.

You've been talking past me this whole time because you've missed the context apparently. — flannel jesus

I do not think so.

The entire context of this conversation is one person suggesting determinists not fret about decisions - that is the same as saying "determinists should have more conscious control of their emotions". — flannel jesus

That is your interpretation. One does not necessarily follow the other. I can see quite clearly another way of viewing how someone does or does not fret about something based on differing foundational beliefs that has no primary bearing on controlling emotional states. Although, to be generous, it seems all conscious states are emotional states if you follow what I believe is the current scientific consensus on this.

If you have a hard deterministic mindset that would follow I guess. I doubt you do though, and that no one really acts with a fatalistic attitude all the time.

And determinists aren't zen monks, so talking about determinists as if they have more conscious control of their emotional state seems entirely unjustified to me. — flannel jesus

You think none are or cannot be zen monks? In the extremes we can reveal a lot about the world. This is apparent in physics at least.

Plus, I am not really sure why you would think anyone is suggesting 'more conscious control'? Maybe someone else suggested this.

Not deciding (or delaying) is a decision of sorts.

Determinists share the same basic human psychology as non determinists. They react emotionally to the same types of things in the same types of ways. They aren't zen monks who spend a lot of time meditating and gaining complete control of their emotional state. If they fret, they fret for the same reasons as non determinists, and if it's not beneficial, it's also not beneficial for non determinists. This whole "fretting" conversation doesn't seem to have any sensible lines to draw in the sand between determinists and non determinists. — flannel jesus

Holding such diametrically opposed beliefs does kind of suggest a line in the sand somewhere don't you think?

As an example. If we had someone with a strong libertarian belief and someone with a strong utilitarian belief it would be in error to suggest they would deal with every choice in the same way. Granted, when we are talking about 'choice' itself then maybe you feel this comparison is ill-fitting?

When a tough decision presents itself it is completely justified to say that a deterministic mentality and a non-deterministic mentality could easily present with the same solution (ie. 'its a toss up'). Ata deeper level it could also be considered the same form the point of view of unconscious preferences surfacing to tip the balance. Meaning a deterministic mindset may consciously act as if their decision is arbitrary when in fact it is running on the subconscious basis of previous experiences in the decision making process.

If neither group knows the truth of freedom or determinism, then, to them, the truth of freedom is irrelevant. Your question in the thought experiment as THEY would put it is : “since we don’t know whether freedom or determinism is true, which is better to believe?” — Fire Ologist

I am saying that one is true and they are both ignorant of the truth. We (us now) are viewing this scenario from outside. I do not care what they say, but I can (I believe) make some predictions about how they would act differently in identical situations because believes their actions are irrelevant towards the effect of future events.

Maybe try this one on for size:

- Is having the ability to choose your fate better than not having to choose your fate? — I like sushi

That you focus on the means of judging better as determined by what is true is interesting. Even more interesting that you assume everyone does this and only this.

Thank you :)