And what constitutes language? There are many kinds of non-linguistic communication. Even very simple organisms share information.

I would suggest that linguistic communication exemplifies consciousness, more than I would say language is a prerequisite, if that makes sense.

I don't think so, unless you think that other mammals don't have experience, which goes against what we observe in nature.

But language is crucial for articulating thought. Without it, one can at best have specific signals such as "predator", "food", "sex" and so on.

But for anything other than very basic things, language is needed for the higher consciousness we have, I'd wager.

Without the language parts of our brains are we even conscious? — TiredThinker

Try to imagine an unconscious person inventing language.
That's too simplistic an approach, I know. But language - all sorts, even the earliest growls and trills - were produced as a form of communication between members of a species. If they had not been conscious of their own intentions and desires, of a second creature's presence and of a need to convey the one to the other, there wouldn't be any point in vocalization, from which all language evolved. (All language: signs, musical notation, numbers, alphabets all arise from oral communication.)

There was at least one person that believed the language part of the brain (I assume Broca's area) was the source of consciousness. Now I think it might be thought to be near the brain stem.

My chickens are conscious, but they don't say much.

My chickens are conscious, but they don't say much. — Banno

You just don't understand the clucks.

My chickens are conscious, but they don't say much. — Banno

I've known a lot of chickens, and they were never silent. Even when they have no flock to communicate with, chickens talk to themselves.

Where does consciousness begin? Without the language parts of our brains are we even conscious? — TiredThinker

I think this is a very good and important question.

First, just to communicate somehow with your own species (and btw also to other species) is absolutely fundamental to animals. Basically it's a necessity to have a method of communication "Danger!" and "I'm here!" and communicating by making sounds is very effective. Hence it's not surprising that we do talk of animal consciousness. And those animals assumed to have a higher level of consciousness do interact by signals or even with a rudimentary simple language, if one would dare to say so.

I assume people agree that there isn't a fixed point just where something is conscious, but there simply are levels of consciousness. Higher levels means that there has to be an advanced language. The huge breakthrough that I guess humans have is to have abstract notions in the language, which just opens up so much. And as we know, a new born infant has to learn to be a human and part of our society. That would be difficult without communication and language is simply so much effective than trying to show everything.

Maybe expand "language" to any intention? Don't we intend or want something before we interpret the associated emotions and then consider the words needed to express our intention. Couldn't intention itself be a kind of language and eventually we have to use a language that others can understand as well?

My chickens are conscious, but they don't say much. — Banno

Thank heaven for that! However, clucks are a kind of primitive language amongst domesticated fowl. :cool:

Is language needed for consciousness?

Is dance choreography needed for walking?

Mushrooms can talk :cool:

As in the written/spoken/signed words used here for example?

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Man_Without_Words

Yes, language is required, the living are meant to associate sound with symbol or spur. However, so is the state of language-less-ness. It's good to be language-less and go into language than it is to think language without knowing language-less-ness.

Where does consciousness begin? Without the language parts of our brains are we even conscious? — TiredThinker

I recently read an article -- can't put my hand on it now -- arguing that human consciousness differs from animal awareness primarily in its use of verbal concepts : i. e. language. It also concluded that human language is both cause & effect of complex social situations. Language allows us to communicate in abstract symbols instead of grunts & gestures. It also allows individuals to function as integral parts of a larger system (society) with common goals & intentions, beyond simple inborn instincts.

The implication, as I recall it, is that consciousness predated language. But its expansion and emergence from basic animal communication of feelings -- e.g. monkey calls that mean "predator!!" -- to more complex and abstract mind pictures (imagination), has resulted in technology & civilization.

Apparently, consciousness began as a form of early-warning radar for animated beings. For example, a worm can't see, but it can feel & smell positive or negative sensations -- food & danger -- in order to wriggle toward or away. As animal mobility increased though, that primitive kind of knowing had to keep pace with the speed of locomotion. And as social interactions complexified, basic awareness of the environment evolved to keep track of a rapidly changing tangle of interrelationships.

Living beings all have some form of immune system -- detecting & dealing with threats to life -- to keep them alive. In single-cell organisms that system is simple & chemical. But in more complex organisms, the life-preserving function became more complex & physical (neural). Then, in humans the need to project current conditions into a not-yet real future, resulted in the ability to conceptualize time & space beyond the scope of the senses. Yet that is a Meta-physical function of Imagination, which as humans, we take for granted. We may equate imagination with consciousness, but not all beings can do so. Basic awareness may be simple & physical. But human consciousness is complex & meta-physical.

So, human consciousness is an evolutionary adaption to the changing conditions of evolution. Physical & Mental progress in evolution results from both feed-back and feed-forward. It allows us to know, not only Now, but Past & Future. And to communicate those figments & fantasies to other humans via language. But try to tell your dog that he's going to the Vet tomorrow, and he'll just smile, and hear: "that's a good boy". :smile:

You are stating language to necessarily be a more advanced form of consciousness and therefore a successor only?

I analogized "consciousness" to walking. I've no idea what you are asking.

You are stating language to necessarily be a more advanced form of consciousness and therefore a successor only? — TiredThinker

That follows. One well-versed in linguistics (especially the history of its evolution) should be able to shed some light on the matter. Where's a linguist when we need one?

No. Look at the link I gave above your post. It is not really up for debate. He had no ‘language’ and managed to cross a border and get a job working as a gardener without ANY concept of signed/spoken/written words.

If someone can do this I cannot possibly see how they cannot be conscious. He remembers his life put calls it a ‘darkness’.

If we mean ‘language’ in a much broader sense (mapping out the world around us and such through narratives) then no, not possible. He refers to going back to groups of other people like he was and watching them act out a scene for 10-15 minutes that was essentially nothing more than saying ‘remember the time when the cow ran around and chased that man’.

Narratives are essential for consciousness it seems. Ww all need to attribute meaning and purpose in action and learning and memory requires narrative structures.