I was somewhat less interested in ecclesiastic history when I visited Assisi than I am now. I remember the basilica was beautiful. A missed opportunity for my spiritual education I guess. — Olivier5

I can't remember why I so wished to visit Assisi.
Possibly steeped in a religious phase - when it felt good to be 'good' and bad when I was 'bad' ( drinking alcohol, having fun, being that devil).

The tension between the different needs and wants.
Who was I pleasing and why?

Embarking on a pilgrimage of sorts...to find answers.
That's what philosophy is good for.

Glad to find and be part of it...
It can be heaven or it can be hell.
And that's quite all right :sparkle:

Renaud wrote about his own two sides in the following song, implying that we are all part Dr Jekyll, part Mister Hyde. He has indeed two distinct styles: one ultra-sarcastic, and one very romantic. — Olivier5

Thanks again for a wonderful song and translation of the lyrics.
The story straight from the knowing heart and mind.
How very human...our struggles without and within...

'Dans cette chanson, Renaud évoque son combat contre l’alcoolisme.' - French wiki.

:hearts:

Zucchero & Miles Davis - Dune Mosse

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A60xWr-nqv0

Zucchero - Follow You Follow Me
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kipwnQl6_JM

Andrea Bocelli - Con Te Partirò - Live From Piazza Dei Cavalieri, Italy / 1997

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TdWEhMOrRpQ

I visited Assisi once but I know very little about St Francis, still — Olivier5

There was a time when I knew St Francis a little.
And I would have given my eye teeth to visit Assisi...

Andrea Bocelli Devil and the Angel
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eLRzSGHlA5c

↪Wayfarer Well called in advance from you. — ssu

Indeed. And you...from 5yrs ago:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/731/putins-breakthrough-in-political-ideology-the-new-komintern/p1

The Russian foreign policy objectives and it's agenda are totally logical. Going against NATO, against the Transatlantic connection and the EU is obvious as these supranational organizations make it possible for smaller countries in the zone of influence of Russia, like the Baltic States, to go against Russia. If relations in Europe were done on a one-to-one basis, Russia would have a very influential position. But if it has to negotiate with the EU, it is in a disadvantage. Hence the anti-EU stance of Russia. And the anti-NATO stance of Russia ought to be obvious to everybody.

Yet with supporting clandestinely Trump, giving loans to the French National Front and having connections to far-right and anti-immigration / anti-EU parties, Russia now has hit a populist streak that likely it didn't think would be possible. Above all, it's de facto enemy, is in total dissarray.
[ ... ]
Russia and it's intelligence services are winning.

I think things are getting worse, not better... — ssu

***

Now:

As Putin is obviously trying to reconstitute and reconquer the Russian (Soviet) Empire, he truly is the modern imperialist... — ssu

The dangerous thing about all of this.
Imperialism. It's not just about Russia.

Putin and Trump both backed Brexit.
The nasty piece of work, Boris Johnson, is still in power despite all his lies and corruption.
To say the very least.

Rule Britannia.
It's the scariest of times. With no apparent way out...another dictator...who cares little for the vulnerable.
It's all about keeping the Tories in power - any predictions on that?

Covid laws and free mass testing are to be swept away across England after Rishi Sunak won a cabinet battle on cutting the cost of the pandemic, prompting fears that the poor and vulnerable will pay the price.

Boris Johnson announced plans to end free testing for the general public from 1 April, saying it was time for people to “get our confidence back”.

People who test positive for Covid will no longer have to isolate by law from this Thursday – and from April will not even be advised to stay at home if infected, the prime minister said. — Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/boris-johnson-says-free-covid-tests-in-england-will-end-on-1-april

I'm grateful to everyone who has clear vision and can call out what is happening...for what it is.

I missed this thoughtful reply.

Si l'enfer c'est les autres, le paradis aussi. — Olivier5

Don't you just love being both? :halo: et :naughty:

There are times I watch and listen to this. It calms me, even though I no longer can believe in any God... it's in Italy!

Some humans can make a difference, even if they are called 'Saints'.

Prayer of St. Francis,(Make Me A Channel of Your Peace) sung by Angelina, EWTN
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc

That is a speech from a man going to war. — ssu

No question. Most chilling.

Nobody wants any of this to happen.
— Wayfarer
Except Putin. He surely wants this to happen. Do note the choreographed theater how Putin plays this.

This isn't anymore some rough-handed way to get NATO to "back down", to get them seriously to talk, but an obvious march to war. — ssu

Indeed.

Excerpt from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/putin-angry-spectacle-amounts-to-declaration-war-ukraine

'Sitting alone at a desk in a grand, columned Kremlin room, Vladimir Putin looked across an expanse of parquet floor at his security council and asked if anyone wished to express an alternative opinion.

He was met with silence.

A few hours later, the Russian president appeared on state television to give an angry, rambling lecture about Ukraine, a country that in Putin’s telling had become “a colony with a puppet regime”, and had no historical right to exist.

Putin’s double bill, which was immediately followed by the signing of an agreement on Russian recognition of the two proxy states in east Ukraine as independent entities, is likely to go down in history as one of the major turning points in his 22-years-and-counting rule over Russia.

This was not a politician convening his team for discussions, this was a supreme leader marshalling his minions and ensuring collective responsibility for a decision that, at minimum, will change the security architecture in Europe, and may well lead to a horrific war that consumes Ukraine.'

The US and European nations have long opposed Russian territorial aggression on Ukraine. The US has been screaming blue murder for the last six weeks, which a lot of people say is simply scare-mongering, although it's obviously not. — Wayfarer

Yes. Words come easy. Some are genuine.
Putin has been a dangerous, now totally paranoid, dictator for how long?
How many leaders have shaken his hand and been showered upon...

Nothing has been learned. And the innocent suffer yet again.
For the evermore power hungry plans of a single man...or men.

How did we let it come to this. On all sides.
Buttons pushed. So easily.
The worst button. Nuclear.

'We're taking over, and any resistance will be regarded as an act of aggression.' — Wayfarer

All of this has been predictable.
Why and how other world leaders let this happen for so long...?
Because they're all batshit fucking crazy monsters. Power greedy, needy men for the most part, no?

So, the warmongers celebrate with crocodile tears dripping down their double faces.
Yay. 'Emotional and aggrieved', huh?

No doubt that Putin is batshit crazy. Anything can happen.
Watching Ch4 news right now. Matt Frei doing what he's best at.
Showing what's going on and asking blunt questions.

President Putin has been giving a national televised address to the Russian people.

Putin insisted that Ukraine was a creation of Russia. Complaining that it had been ‘madness’ to allow any former Soviet republics to leave the Soviet Empire, he declared that Ukraine had never had a consistent tradition as an independent nation, and blamed the US for supporting ‘radicals’.

All this after a bizarre, carefully choreographed televised meeting of his security council today – where one by one Putin’s subordinates gave their support to recognising the independence of two breakaway regions. — Ch 4 News - Putin signs decree

''Have you packed your bag?''
https://www.channel4.com/news/it-was-like-watching-a-crazy-man-talk-ukrainian-mp-responds-to-putin-address

Former US Ambassador to NATO: ‘Russia are clearly showing they no longer respect Ukrainian sovereignty’:
https://www.channel4.com/news/former-us-ambassador-to-nato-russia-are-clearly-showing-they-no-longer-respect-ukrainian-sovereignty

Fascinating and terrifying. All waiting...

Just catching up...
So cool.
:cool: :love:

such a pretty song — Seppo

:sparkle:

Such a peaceful sound. And what kind of guitar is that?

Back to the 60's...

A Groovy Kind of Love - Wayne Fontana and the Mindbenders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3kXqlJhGuE

Heard this song and found it real nice. Though I don't have the lyrics, it seems pretty deep. Below is an interview the author gave about it. — Olivier5

Thanks. A beautiful and unusual listen. A story worth telling and repeating.

On a lighter note:
Just another manic Monday - the Bangles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmVgoXDq2w

It helps if when you're feeling blue, someone calls you out of it.
And the weather calms, after a series of storms.

Thank you for the translation and links. Will read later.

Already seen it. — javi2541997

Looks like you've done a whole load of research. Is this for an academic qualification?
What were your conclusions after reading the article?

In his Nobel Prize speech Kawabata made definite and strong connection with the Zen tradition of emptiness. I personally like that formulation, that the best thing an old man can learn to do is to drink tea from an empty cup. — javi2541997

Yes. Noted.
Even as we might appreciate his writing, we can still consider:
How much of it is a true reflection of himself, his thoughts or no thoughts ?

All of this leaves unanswered the question of what it is he means by religion. He mentions spiritual values, Zen, and Shinto which some regard as matters of religion or at least not distinct from religion. — Fooloso4

Exactly. I think a distinction is being made between the absolutes of traditional Western Religion and a particular type of Spiritual truth as found in Zen. The different types of Scriptures and the ways to find enlightenment, whatever that is.

In study, there are questions and answers. As here. Words leading in circles of confusion towards a degree of clarity if we're lucky.
In the end, or the beginning of the end, it is up to the individual, perhaps best found by writing or reading with a free spirit...a natural flow or intuition? Perhaps no apparent dogma of any description but there remains a belief, a kind of truth?
Still to be analysed with that sharp knife cutting through the empty spaces.

How this translates, or might lead, to a defeat of religion is anyone's guess.

It seems to me that, from the parts I bolded, that there is an opposition to study and reason, even as he writes almost religiously that the disciple must be master of his own thoughts. But I really don't know - only having a passing acquaintance.


***

On the subject of truth or Truth.
From Kawabata's Nobel lecture:

There are of course masters of Zen, and the disciple is brought toward enlightenment by exchanging questions and answers with his master, and he studies the scriptures.

The disciple must, however, always be lord of his own thoughts, and must attain enlightenment through his own efforts. And the emphasis is less upon reason and argument than upon intuition, immediate feeling. Enlightenment comes not from teaching but through the eye awakened inwardly. Truth is in “the discarding of words”, it lies “outside words”. And so we have the extreme of “silence like thunder”, in the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra.

[...]

Saigyo frequently came and talked of poetry. His own attitude towards poetry, he said, was far from the ordinary. Cherry blossoms, the cuckoo, the moon, snow: confronted with all the manifold forms of nature, his eyes and his ears were filled with emptiness.

And were not all the words that came forth true words?
When he sang of the blossoms the blossoms were not on his mind, when he sang of the moon he did not think of the moon.

As the occasion presented itself, as the urge arose, he wrote poetry. The red rainbow across the sky was as the sky taking on color. The white sunlight was as the sky growing bright. Yet the empty sky, by its nature, was not something to become bright. It was not something to take on color. With a spirit like the empty sky he gives color to all the manifold scenes but not a trace remained.

In such poetry was the Buddha, the manifestation of the ultimate truth.”

Here we have the emptiness, the nothingness, of the Orient.

My own works have been described as works of emptiness, but it is not to be taken for the nihilism of the West. The spiritual foundation would seem to be quite different. Dogen entitled his poem about the seasons, “Innate Reality”, and even as he sang of the beauty of the seasons he was deeply immersed in Zen.
— Kawabata Nobel Lecture

* addendum to previous post re the Palm-of-the-Hand stories:

Kawabata’s writing career started and ended with short stories. He developed a style of brief, sharp and lucid prose pieces, often only a page and a half to two pages in length, that he termed ‘Palm-of-the-hand stories’, a delightful image that also serves as the title of a collection of many of these pieces. Of these stories Kawabata commented:

Many writers, in their youth, write poetry; I, instead of poetry, wrote the palm-of-the-hand stories. Among them are unreasonably fabricated pieces, but there are more than a few good ones that flowed from my pen naturally, of their own accord…. [T]he poetic spirit of my young days lives on in them. — Kawabata

Kawabata wrote with a graceful and light touch that retained a sense of refined composure even when dealing with subject matter as dark as suicide, adultery and abandonment. His novels exemplify a honed efficiency, many of them can easily be read in a single long afternoon and even the longer works are written in a clean and concise prose that allows the reader to glide through the pages. The brevity of many of Kawabata’s writings, however, is not for want of depth or content, but rather evidence of an aversion to excess and an artful balancing of a few carefully selected elements that come across as unmistakably and quintessentially Japanese in character.

[ ... ]

For those looking to broaden their reading of ‘serious’ literature beyond the Western canon, Yasunari Kawabata is a fine starting point, eminently readable and accessible, providing a glimpse into the troubles of his own time and society whilst still offering us a way of seeing our own.

Why do you think Kawabata said literature can defeat religion? Is it related to promote a better educational system or the pursue of a free state of knowledge through books? — javi2541997

I don't know that he did say that. Nor can I speculate as to what it relates to.
As @Dawnstorm's https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/653994
More context is required.
It would help if you could share whatever you have read (? source) that leads to your questions.
Your response to Dawnstorm moved the alleged quote from the Nobel Prize speech to a 'hint' during an interview. Perhaps you read something between the lines?

I got the context from an interview he had among other Japanese writers. They were debating about the art of writing poems and books. He hinted on the debate that literature could defeat religion.
It is important to keep in mind that Kawabata was atheist... Probably this could be connected to.
— javi2541997

Thanks. It would be interesting to read that interview, but I suspect it'd be hard to find a translation online. — Dawnstorm

It would be interesting to read that interview; the debate about the art of writing poems and books. It seems the concern is related to the production and appreciation of art forms and their relationship to religion, or aspects thereof. So, where can it be found @javi2541997?

...We can match this argument to this idea: "encouraging people into culture and books could get them away from all forms of religion"
When you read complex novels or see philosophical operas/dramas you make a step forward of how you see the world. Supposedly, not that dogmatic from a religious point of view. — javi2541997

The possibility is there, for sure, but religion is not likely to be killed off. And without the context, I'm not sure that is what Kawabata was getting at. Or even wanted. How sure are you?

I agree that a wider, deeper reading experience, rather than an obsession with one author, subject or style, is required if we are to be helped to see different perspectives; all the better to avoid dogmatism wherever it might be found.
'Reading' in every sense of the word, the 'texts' of music, art, science, philosophy, religion.
And they don't have to be complex as long as we can relate to past, present, future ideas and conversations. Just as in TPF's Short Story Competition!
What it is to be a better human; reading, writing and learning with care and attention.
Religion and fiction. Common ground; both can affect or influence our behaviour, for better or worse, depending on our critical faculties.

***

I appreciate very much your thread and discussion; for the introduction to Kawabata.
I intend to read his short stories which can be downloaded free from the Internet Archive, Open Library.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-of-the-Hand_Stories

***

Kawabata is intriguing for another claim he made.
''Looking at old works of art is a matter of life and death"

This article explores the possible interpretations—and the implications of those interpretations—of a comment about the importance of art made by Yasunari Kawabata (1899–1972), later the first Japanese Nobel laureate for literature: that “looking at old works of art is a matter of life and death.” (In 1949, Kawabata visited Hiroshima in his capacity as president of the Japan literary society P.E.N. to inspect the damage caused by the atomic bombing of Hiroshima that helped end World War II. On his way back to his home in Kamakura, he stopped in Kyoto. He came under severe criticism for “sightseeing” at such a time. This comment was his response.) The introduction explains why we should take him seriously as a commentator on art. The body of the article examines why our looking at art might be more, not less, important after the post War situation, the kinds of art Kawabata might have meant, why some possibilities are more likely than others, and how they differ in what they offer us and the value of art under conditions of trauma and mass trauma. — “A Matter of Life and Death”: Kawabata on the Value of Art after the Atomic Bombings Mara Miller

The article might answer some of your questions re education and knowledge (Section III).
Either way, it provides substantial and clear information. I have a better appreciation of Kawabata.
"So just who is this Kawabata and what does he know about this matter of art and survival?"
Read on!

I remember discussing with you political/social cartoons the last summer. — javi2541997

I remember that and more.
Good to see you back... just as I have left...for a bit.

Thanks for the cartoon.
However, I find it difficult to raise a smile.
Right now, I want to smite down...those liars.

A powerful piece from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/12/lies-lies-and-more-lies-a-government-built-on-lies-is-incapable-of-anything-else

:fire:

Your heart is the only real church — Olivier5

Mais...où est le paradis?

Seriously though, I never even found it slow when I was reading it. Just totally absorbing. — jamalrob

Same here.
If I'm not around for the next few months, you'll know why...just dropped by to let you know :wink:

Bitter Crank says he started this thread as a joke. He, and I, are surprised how interesting and enlightening it has turned out to be. There are a few people here who seem really interested in the philosophy of art; including literature, poetry, music, architecture, visual arts, sculpture. There have been a couple of good threads recently. I'd like to see more. — T Clark

:up:
Agree that the creative aspect of philosophy could be explored more. Encouraging to see an increase in interest. Thanks @Bitter Crank for starting this thread, even as a joke :sparkle:

I wrote the one for "Titus Groan" because it's a hard book to stick with and I wanted to give it people as a gift. I thought if I gave them that review it might inspire them to read it. I also write reviews to examine my own experience of reading. Why did I like this book so much? Just like the writing I do here on the forum, it is a way to become more intellectually self-aware. — T Clark

I'm glad I found your review, thanks to @jamalrob.
I now have the trilogy on my kindle.

Also found an audio version of 'Titus Groan' on YouTube:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/643484

Chapter 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnS_w1bWXU&list=PLJhs8srQkUbL2ooUwsu4BT9MCZ7kFPYnG

For me, the narration is marvellous and saves my weary eyes.
So far, I've listened to 3 of the 40 chapters. I have no idea how I missed this delight until now...
The narrator, with his fantastic range of voice, brings the characters to life in their vivid, magical world.

It's a shame your review is hidden away here; I think more would enjoy this book.
I can understand how it inspired @jamalrob to write his winning story :cool:

Appreciate the generous sharing on TPF :sparkle:

Brilliant ! :sparkle:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/642270

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread. Brought here by:
The Short Story competition comments @jamalrob:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/643376

I have never learned the art of review. My read-a-long feedback to the stories is nowhere near a proper review. I felt uncomfortable with that description by some.
For me, it was just like being in a discussion. Relating and trying to understand the text. Asking questions of the author and self. Interacting with other readers. Viewing other perspectives.
Mostly, this led to greater understanding and appreciation of the writers' own process.

For me, the Short Story Competition was/is an inspirational learning experience.
It has its frustrations, yes. However, overall it proved to be most worthwhile.
Thanks to all who made it so :sparkle:

So, I missed reading this thread. Will rectify soon as...

Sorry Amity, I haven't been on TPF much lately — Olivier5

Yes. I noticed. Hope you're well. Here now and fine.

I love the growing complicity between Paradis and Moreau on the first vid, how they start the song far away from one another, and end it holding hands. — Olivier5

Yes, moving :sparkle:

***

Pretenders - 2000 Miles (Official Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEyGZlBdkaA

In the Bleak Midwinter - Winter in the Highlands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G0FIn7nB2E

Chill out this Christmas :party:

Merry Christmas :party:

merry (adj.)
Middle English mirie, from Old English myrge "pleasing, agreeable, pleasant, sweet, exciting feelings of enjoyment and gladness" (said of grass, trees, the world, music, song); also as an adverb, "pleasantly, melodiously," from Proto-Germanic *murgijaz, which probably originally meant "short-lasting," (compare Old High German murg "short," Gothic gamaurgjan "to shorten"), from PIE root *mregh-u- "short." The only exact cognate for meaning outside English was Middle Dutch mergelijc "joyful."

The connection to "pleasure" likely was via the notion of "making time fly, that which makes the time seem to pass quickly" (compare German Kurzweil "pastime," literally "a short time;" Old Norse skemta "to amuse, entertain, amuse oneself," from skamt, neuter of skammr "short"). There also was a verbal form in Old English, myrgan "be merry, rejoice." For vowel evolution, see bury (v.).

Not originally applied to humorous moods or speech or conduct, yet the word had a much wider senses in Middle English than modern: "pleasant-sounding" (of animal voices), "fine" (of weather), "handsome" (of dress), "pleasant-tasting" (of herbs). The evolution of the modern senses is probably via the meaning "pleased by a certain event or situation or state of things" (c. 1200). Of persons, "cheerful by disposition or nature; playfully cheerful, enlivened with gladness or good spirits," by mid-14c.

Merry-bout "an incident of sexual intercourse" was low slang from 1780. Merry-begot "illegitimate" (adj.), also "bastard" (n.) are in Grose (1785). Merrie England (now frequently satirical or ironic) is c. 1400, meri ingland, originally in a broader sense of "bountiful, prosperous." Merry Monday was a 16c. term for "the Monday before Shrove Tuesday" (Mardi Gras).
— Etymonline: Merry

Christmas:

Christmas (n.)

"Church festival observed annually in memory of the birth of Christ," late Old English Cristes mæsse, from Christ (and retaining the original vowel sound) + mass (n.2).

Written as one word from mid-14c. As a verb, "to celebrate Christmas," from 1590s. Father Christmas is attested in a carol attributed to Richard Smart, Rector of Plymtree (Devon) from 1435-77. Christmas-tree in the modern sense is attested by 1835 in American English, rendering German Weihnachtsbaum. Christmas cards were first designed in 1843, popular by 1860s; the phrase Christmas-card was in use by 1850. Christmas present is from 1769. Christmas Eve is Middle English Cristenmesse Even (c. 1300). — Etymonline: Christmas

From Ray Monk’s biography of Wittgenstein: — Joshs

I stand corrected. I respect Ray Monk :sparkle:

I'll focus on this:

Roles were important n Greek life as the still are in virtue ethics. A good lawyer plays a different role than a good judge for instance. Roles are necessarily public because they are defined publically. In society we play social roles, espeicalliy in stratified Greek society. — Tobias

The various roles humans play, for sure, important and as interesting now as ever.
They are not necessarily public.
The role of a good/bad teacher might be seen in public ( school ) but also in private ( symposium/home).

--------

One leaves the household and engages in political affairs, affairs concerning the polis.
An idiot (a person not involved in public affairs) does not do this and therefore also does not get to practice virtue — Tobias

The 'idiot' in Ancient Greek, ῐ̓δῐώτης as defined earlier included:

• a private soldier, as opposed to a general
• (adjectival use) private, homely
• one who is awkward, clumsy
• (in the plural) one's countrymen

Why would they not 'get to practise virtue' ?
'Practising virtue' as per Virtue Ethics involves the role of 'character' (having ideal traits) rather than playing a role or engaging in public politics.

--------

In any case, I'm done here. Games are being played; roleplaying or otherwise.
The point made well by @Hanover

Homonym equivocation games, right? My point being that the etymology of words doesn't command meaning, but usage does. What words mean in one time period or context can be different than in others. — Hanover

I don't know but I think we should invite Varoufakis along to be a Guest Speaker.
And flay him alive.
Perhaps practise first on @Banno - but then again, with his inclinations...
Definitely should be held accountable for his their sins :naughty:
What would the Ancient Greeks do ?

I have also looked at his book but unfortunately Varoufakis mentions the saying without giving a source. — emancipate

Thanks so much, emancipate :up:
Pretty much what I suspected.
It troubles annoys me when sources aren't given. Not good practice. Disappointing.

Don't remember the time - near the end. — Tom Storm

Thanks but couldn't find it in the limited time I have for this guy.
No great loss.

Wittgenstein, AC Grayling tells us, read almost no philosophy at all — Tom Storm

Sorry for dropping in on a thread I haven't read but...

Where does AC Grayling say this ?
He is wrong but that doesn't surprise me.

It makes sense in the context of ancient Greek life. The highest form of life for the Greeks was political life. One leaves the household and engages in political affairs, affairs concerning the polis. An idiot (a person not involved in public affairs) does not do this and therefore also does not get to practice virtue, which for the anicent Greeks was attached to playing roles and roles are necessarily public. So yes not engaging in public life makes one an idiot. — Tobias

Hmmm. 'One leaves the household and engages in political affairs'. 'One' would be a man, no ?
So, those left behind ( wives/children) taking care of home affairs/studying wouldn't get to practise virtue ?
This doesn't sound right - nor does the 'playing roles' bit.. and why 'necessarily public' ?
It would be helpful if citations were provided to support your understanding.

--------

As per:

...what I do find does not combine the notions of one's own interests at the expense of others. — tim wood

The conclusion - ῐ̓δῐώτης being translated/interpreted as the derogatory 'selfish or useless'- doesn't follow.

From wiki:

Many political commentators, starting as early as 1856, have interpreted the word "idiot" as reflecting the Ancient Athenians' attitudes to civic participation and private life, combining the ancient meaning of 'private citizen' with the modern meaning 'fool' to conclude that the Greeks used the word to say that it is selfish and foolish not to participate in public life.[8][9][10][11][12][13] But this is not how the Greeks used the word.

It is certainly true that the Greeks valued civic participation and criticized non-participation. Thucydides quotes Pericles' Funeral Oration as saying: "[we] regard... him who takes no part in these [public] duties not as unambitious but as useless" (τόν τε μηδὲν τῶνδε μετέχοντα οὐκ ἀπράγμονα, ἀλλ᾽ ἀχρεῖον νομίζομεν).[14]

However, neither he nor any other ancient author uses the word "idiot" to describe non-participants, or in a derogatory sense; its most common use was simply a private citizen or amateur as opposed to a government official, professional, or expert.[15] The derogatory sense came centuries later, and was unrelated to the political meaning.[16][4][2] — Wiki: Idiot

--------

Still waiting for help with that alleged Ancient Greek saying, anyone ?

In moderation as apoietis [poet], immoderately as an idiotis , — Amity